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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 16:15:38

From GHotR:

quote:
�2758 DR
Netheril�s government evolves into a council called the High Mages of Netheril, which includes the leading arcanists of Low and High Netheril.

I only used the term 'republic' because thats the type of Gov't it sounds like. Perhaps 'magocracy' would be more correct (although having no RW example of one of those, I would still think it was a republic lead by the magical leaders of the enclaves). 'Confederacy' may have been better as well. They certainly weren't united into the type of nation one normally imagines in today's world. More like the ancient Greeks.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 16:23:13

Yes confederacy sounds good.

Once the desert gets going and land based cities start to die, the country infrastructure would start to collapse as people migrated to other cities and put a strain on resources.

The Enclaves step in and take over with them in charge, trying to use their magical might to fix things.

However when the leader Ioulaum disappears, Karsus steps up to the plate and makes his catastrophic error.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 16:24:49

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

<snip> Are they actually spirits of the dead like the Rengarth believe. Could they be spirits of the Sarrukh? Are they magical projections of the Phaerimm - kind of like a wizard eye spell. Are they fey spirits - there are a few fey creatures in the Netheril basin (admittedly more towards the eastern forest - whereas the spirits are in the Angardt and Rengarth lands).

Well, my thoughts about such things is that part of what the Weave does is reinforce the (weakened) 'veil between the worlds'. When magic gets over-used in a region, the magic begins to be 'used up', and the veil becomes thinner. Hence, 'things' getting through from the other side (other planes of existence). Between all the magic the Archmages are throwing around, and the arcane energy the Phaerimm are consuming, the Weave was getting very weak/thin over Anauroch, and 'stuff' was getting through.

Phaerimm 'eat' the weave and magic, Sharn repair it; like a virus and anti-bodies. The Phaerimm seem to be something natural to the universe - a part of entropy. By feeding on 'the magic' which keeps everything separate (reality itself), they help to eventually return the universe to its pristine, pre-'big bang' state. Just my theory, anyway - it fits with the other aberration lore we have (the newer stuff, and its cthulhu-esque leanings).

Another way of putting t - the universe is like The Matrix, or a giant holodeck - everything is just an illusion being maintained by 'the program'. Phaerimm are then like a computer virus, and Sharn an anti-virus. Perhaps the Phaerimm aren't as naturally-occurring as I had thought, because the sharn are 'man-made' (artificial lifeforms). So who would create 'magic eaters'? Primordials?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jan 2014 16:28:39

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 16:29:40

So in that case they would be ethereal creatures manifesting on the prime.

Either way i think it is worth writing in the increased spirit sightings as portents of doom. So they had warnings from the terraseer, warnings from deities (probably), and warnings from increased spirit activity all telling them that they were about to die horribly.

Maybe the spirits were an echo of their future dead selves. Of course thats a bit sci fi there and doesnt really fit in the realms but there is no need to provide a definitive explanation just a few ideas.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 16:32:39

Right now i'm concentrating on converting all the mentions of NY dates to DR dates.

Then trying to figure out how Netheril spread and in which directions at which times to make sure it is consistent and ties up.

Then i can figure out where the destruction of cities originated and where it spread to, and make sure that is consistent as well with the lore we have.

Once all that is done i should have an idea of borders, areas, and people that lived in the Netheril Basin before coming up with a draft of how Netheril was organised.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 19:05:56

Not just the ethereal - things from the Feywild, Shadowfel (those ghosts you mentioned), lower planes, etc. All kinds of 'nastiness' sneaks across the border because it has become permeable in spots.

The Narrow sea ran (mostly) N-S at one time, and then the Sarrukh altered the course of the sea to get rid of the Phaerimm (and why that could have possibly worked is beyond me!) Thats why by the time of Netheril, it run E-W. That was actually a fix to correct the mistake the box set caused (one of Netherils major ports was left 'high & dry', literally).

I think changing the course of the sea was actually a by-product of whatever magic they used, and since I think (most of) the Phaerimm got shifted to the Raurin region during that, I would imagine that they teleported a huge chunk of the underdark over that way, which then caused a collapse of the surrounding terrain, and thus changing the the sea in that region. That would fix a few problems (because the Imaskari also dealt with the Phaerimm... and had no problem doing so).

Since Imaskari magic was based off of lore they got from the fey, and the Netherese magic was based off of lore from the other 3 Creator Races, I have to wonder at what the Fey knew about Phaerimm that the others didn't.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jan 2014 19:06:43

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7968 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 22:38:13

quote:
dazzlerdal

So in Toril, without magic there can be no life, and therefore life and magic are much the same thing.

I agree that the presence of magic encourages greater quantity, quality, and diversity of life. But I�m not sure that magic is required for life, the absence of magic doesn�t seem to (always) produce completely sterile, inhospitable, toxic environments.

What of dead-magic zones? Do they still support ecology? If so, is it �normal� or is it somehow warped, twisted, stifled by the lack of magic? Even the utter absence of life doesn�t prohibit the presence of undeath and unlife.

ost living things seem largely unaffected and unaware of any dead-magic zones they wander into, aside from spellcasters getting a bit of a dull headache. Roughly one quarter of the city of Tantras became a permanent, stable dead-magic zone after the ToT, and has consequently attracted a disproportionately dense population (consisting, of course, of people who wish to protect themselves vs magical intrusions).

[/Ayrik]

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 15:55:24

Hmm, Quantoul may have survived as an amnesiac voadkyn that was teleported to a random place on Toril.

Does anyone know what race the Rotting Man in the Great Dale was?

Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 16:12:56

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Does anyone know what race the Rotting Man in the Great Dale was?

NE male half-fiend human druid 12 / Talontar blightlord 10, Chosen of Talona (3e, Unapproachable East page 118).

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 16:27:35

Damn there goes that idea then.

Cheers Demzer. I mean that in the good way as in cheers for finding the information for me, not in the sarcastic way.

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 22 Jan 2014 16:40:45

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 17:15:18

There might be a way of connecting our 'lost lich' to the Nightmare Keep module. We have 'lichlings', and the location is PERFECT.

Sadly, it isn't the best adventure in the world, and one of the few 'juicy bits' is that the evil antagonist is from Rashemen, not Nethril... but it could be tweaked, I suppose.

Also female... but as I said, I wanted to make Bouyance a female that had poised as a man anyway (I can't get the image of Bouyance looking like Beyonc� out of my mind).

EDIT: We can take a page from previous (unassociated) lore and the ToT/Spellplague. What if - when Karsus did his thing and the Weave collapsed - a human female was holding Buoyance's phylactory at the time of 'magical chaos'? The lifeforce got transferred into her (as the lich was destroyed when magic failed), and then Phylornel became a human female... who traveled to the east and eventually became Icelia from Nighmare Keep. When she tried to become a lich a second time, she became a demi-lich instead, which actually fits with that module.

Which means the 'lichlings' are Phylornel's (Buoyance) 'children'. Considering the name, creating some sort of flying offspring sounds about right, and considering his back story (he liked to strip lifeforce from others), it fits perfectly with what I just came up with.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jan 2014 18:36:24

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 19:03:40

When I first read your idea for buoyance I thought of her as an actual woman who used disguises to be trained as an arcanist as a man. Then later she uses magic to keep up the disguises.
Secretly she hates men for their attitude towards women and uses her true gender to put them off guard and kill them with her power.
Then she could escape and become a demilich.
However your idea is much more interesting.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 20:36:29

Just found another cloud giant clan that sent a delegate to the enclave that had its population polymorphed into voadkyn.

Then storm giants sent a delegate too.

I will have to figure out where that enclave roamed before trying to determine where the giants come from but there may have been several hidden giant enclaves in Netheril (not surprising given it's size).

Of course if the enclave existed near the edge it is likely the giants came from outside Netheril.

I'm also noticing a number of bits in a blurb that indicate the narrow sea and rivers in the area are flowing in the wrong direction. I didn't think they knew about that lore when they wrote Netheril. Maybe the direction change wasn't just shoe horned in after all, maybe they planned it.

Also there are lots of little pointers to the creator races in random places about the geographic landmarks. There are even pipes in certain places that were used to create a marsh which are ideal living conditions for lizardfolk which the sarrukh used as slaves.

Also it keeps mentioning Moander killing the creator race before the time of dragons which is surprisingly accurate, and that they may not have all died, they may have fled to other planes which is again surprisingly accurate for the Sarrukh (although wrong sarrukh empire if I remember right).

We know the Sarrukh fought the Faerun and changed the direction of the narrow sea, but I don't believe it detailed in Serpent Kingdoms how they died. I think Moander is a serious contender given the repeated references. Maybe Moander was even born in the Netheril Basin from the rotting vegetation caused by the changes in the water table by redirecting the Narrow Sea. That must have played havoc with the ecology and caused deaths of many species on a massive scale.

From this decaying matter came Moander who killed off the Sarrukh and then disappeared into the forest (and explains how a big chunk of him ended up beneath Tsornyl. It probably tired itself out killing things and went to sleep in a great big hole in the ground.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 11:15:48

By coincidence i just read another post about a woman named Avrauntra from Elminster Presents the Forgotten Realms. This is unfortunately one of the books i do not possess.

Anyone have any info on this woman.

hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 14:06:46

Avrauntra seems to be a netherese arcanist from Ed's home game. The information on her, as far as I'm aware, is solely in Elminster Presents.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 14:22:48

From Ed Greenwood presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms page 185, "Words of Awakening" section:

In early Netherese magic, certain words were commonly used to activate magical wards and guard spells, as well as to reveal the presence and nature of illusions by turning them translucent. Such utterances function only when said by a living being standing in the right spot-either a small, precise "feet just here" or "hand touching
this" location or a larger area like a room, according to the magic to which they're linked. Such words were favorites of Avrauntra, the first and greatest Netherese arcanist. Avrauntra tutored so many students so well that they swiftly became more powerful than Netherese priests, transforming the culture and making possible the later empire of magic that culminated in the flying cities of the archwizards.
Though many sages uphold Karsus as the greatest Netherese mage, Mystra has said it is more accurate to see him as the "most recklessly
ambitious." Avrauntra lived for centuries, suffering heartbreak after heartbreak as those she loved were slain by rival mages or perished through misadventure (often brought on by their magical experimentations). Despairing, she ultimately merged herself with the Weave, increasing its strength, vigor, and extent-and she is not the
only mage to have done so. Some believe she lives still, as a sentience within the Weave that watches all spellcasters and murmurs warnings or advice to those of whom she approves. Later spellcasters made use of Avrauntra's words without necessarily being aware of their
origins, gleaning them from ancient writings and spellbooks and believing they had power in their own right. Indeed, they did, because repeatedly used Weave trigger words increasingly influence the Weave to respond in certain ways, and if Avrauntra is still aware within the Weave, she might respond to uses of "her" words.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 14:37:42

Quagmire.

Thats an interesting place. It's ruling archwizard was so secretive no one knew who he was.

Some said he was a lizard man, others claimed he was a vampire.

The enclave itself hovered over the marsh of simplicity and was devoted to Targus.

It had an army of 20,000 warriors that were brainwashed into serving Targus above all else.

These warriors fought an orc horde at least once and massacred over 150,000 orcs in one battle.

Now the unknown arcanist is probably just lazy design. But the rumour of him being a lizardman and lairing over the marsh of simplicity (which is full of lizardmen) and given the Sarrukh empire that once ruled here means the archwizard could well be a Sarrukh.

I have a theory that the Sarrukh lich kings of Oreme each pursued the ultimate goal of trying to destroy the Phaerimm and saving themselves from a painful death.
However since they are all evil, they all pursue it in their own way and try to sabotage each others methods. Arthindol The Terraseer is the most famous one we know of whose pet project was Netheril. He probably sought to create a super magic powerful nation to beat the Phaerimm at their own game (he failed). Hlundadim may have also been a Sarrukh and tried to do something similar but using goblinoids instead of humans.

Maybe this Quagmire was another Sarrukh lich, and i dont know what his plan may have been, but his attempt to sabotage the Terraseers plan was to create an enclave of sword wielding loonies that were brainwashed into loving battle upon whom the Netherese would come to rely for military might. He did this knowing that when they came up against the Phaerimm they would be massacred, and so weakening the Netherese from within (essentially making one of their enclaves useless).

I also wonder if Targus may not have been a fragment of the world serpent that he sought to use to usurp power from the Netherese. It can't be a coincidence that Quagmire hovered above the marsh of simplicity for millennia, and yet the lizardmen survived, and prospered (and later destroyed the remnants of Quagmire at the end).

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 14:39:32

Marvellous Demzer, thankyou. She could very well be the origin of some of the spirit/apparitions that appeared to Netherese warning them of troubles ahead.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 16:05:25

So the city of Spiel crashed into the grounds of the Easten Forest.

Now i reckon the Eastern Forest actually refers to Rystall Wood.

By the end of Netheril Rystall Wood and Cormanthor would have been separated by many miles of cleared land (from a meteor strike and later logging by the Moonsea humans).

There was also the Twisted Tower and the drow territory centred on Shadowdale.

So the Eastern Forest that stretched into Anauroch would be Rystall Wood which also extended into a part of the Ride.

So Spiel's crash could be somewhere in or near the border forest. It could be that Spiel broke into several pieces but its mythallar remained intact on a single outcropping of rock which levitated back into the air and became the Temple in the Sky.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 18:14:05

I keep getting these two threads mixed-up, since my primary interest in them is the giant/Ogre presence in the area (the last vestiges f ancient Ostoria). I suppose this could go in either one, although it could be another link to 'the Cloud kingdom' (which has more to do with SE Netheril then Thar).

quote:
From pg.63 0f FR9 The Bloodstone Lands -

Celedon had been investigating a mysterious cloud hanging over Suncatcher Mountain, where the Galenas meet with the Earthspurs. <snip>
The mysterious cloud is a magical kingdom of cloud giants, a huge lair of the monsters and their pet cloud dragon(s).

I am starting to get the idea that 'The Cloud Kingdom' was anything but - it was probably a very loose confederation of cloud Giant settlements that spanned all of northern Faer�n. Because of the growing threat of Nethril (and especially after they started building sky-enclaves), the giants formed a more formal arangemet among themselves in the region of Netheril (which was well-warranted, considering what happened to Thaeravel, the Gnomes, and the wars of extermination they enacted on orcs and giants alike).

My thinking now is that they got on good terms with Thaeravel because of Netheril (which didn't help either of them in the long run), but probably also developed relationships with elves (and others) in the area (hence, why there were avariel in 'The Cloud Kingdom', as well as good-aligned dragons and other flyers). In fact, 'the Cloud Kingdom' itself could have been something organized by the Elves of Cormanthyr and Evereska, gathering together like-minded creatures to keep tabs on Netheril.

Thus, it wasn't a Kingdom at all, but rather a coalition, that utilized the cloud-giant strongholds.

Thoughts?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 18:24:43

Just read your last post...

I have been waffling back-&-forth between one meteor strike in that region and two separate ones. I thought it would be simpler to join them into one, and just fudge the dates ("inaccurate reporting"), but now I am seeing that the are just too many references to them separately, and that one happened at least a 1000 years ago and the other more recently, in the last couple of centuries.

There is even a place on that Thar map (from RB's article) that says "Falling Star". My thoughts now are that the older strike is what gave the Moonsea is current form (and name), and the newer strike landed in Thar itself, but the artifact was carried into Vassa (according to the 2e PGtF). I would say the original object must be somewhere on the eastern end of the Moonsea - perhaps that 'Suncatcher Mountain' named in my above post?

If so, what sort of interest would giants/giant-kin have in pieces of space debris? I know the elves mine them for Moonsilver, but what do the giants want? And are there (at least) two different types, as I suspect?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jan 2014 18:25:17

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
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Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 19:11:05

To be honest, how you have described this particular cloud giant "kingdom" is probably the only way it could exist.

We know that the grand kingdom of Ostoria was broken up ages ago into sub kingdoms in various parts of the Realms.

These kingdoms also look to have perished at various points in history.

I have seen references to a cloud giant kingdom of Ruanaroch in southern Netheril.

It is likely that this realm also died given that Netheril had a major clash with giants during its history.

So you have a number of clan holds floating around in the sky numbering about 40 members that have no physical links to each other (like roads etc). So in order to make themselves seem less vulnerable they make out to the outside world that they are the kingdom of Avae(I cant remember the rest). However really they are just distantly related clan holds that might meet up once a year in a pre arranged place to trade and have a chat.

In fact they probably operate a lot like ancient Scotland did. They are all related in some way, but they don't really get on and are as likely to attack each other as anyone else. However start a fight with one of them and you start a fight with all of them (you cant stab my brother, only im allowed to stab my brother).

This is also how barbarians seem to operate. Disparate tribes that are part of the Rengarth people who don't really cooperate unless there is someone who wants a fight, then they all join in. And I think that this is how High Netheril operates as well (apart from they don't all rush to each others aid since some of them genuinely hate each other).

Now I have some questions for you Markus since you have done plenty of work on migrations

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
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Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 19:13:46

And I just read up on the Tear of Selune you mentioned and it might knacker all my work on Thar since it says the Tear fell in a meteorite that landed in Thar.

However not all meteor strikes are massive geography changing events. Some might make a hole in the ground the size of a car so I will just go with that.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 19:29:32

Now onto my question.

Its about the Netherese people.

It states in several places that the Netherese are different to the barbarians. The barbarians are stockier, meatier, heartier, and sound more like northmen to me.

So when did humans first begin to settle the north?

Now there are also mentions of early primitive human archaeological remains in the Netheril basin that look to no longer exist.

So any ideas who these people were and where they came from.

I keep reading about Talfiric people, are these the Rengarth barbarians (instead of them being northmen).

Next is where did the Netherese people come from. I know the village of Gers is mentioned in -3869 but when were these villages founded and how did these migrating Netherese get there.

If I remember correctly you have suggested that they are the Gur people from the Hordelands Basin. Now that would make them horse nomads and they may have migrated for climate reasons (in the Netheril Book it mentions several times that the High Ice was much larger and covered more of the Basin in ancient times).

But how did they get to Netheril. It is surrounded by mountains on all sides. Part of the mountains ranges lead to Vaasa and Damara which were under a glacier (I'm ignoring the incorrect Ulutiu sinking date to create the great glacier in GHoTR). They could move across the Inner Sea to Cormanthor but that is a dense forest full of elves that probably wouldn't take too kindly to a tribe of humans marching through their realm. Plus big ancient forests are full of things far more dangerous than elves.

So the only thing I can think of is they migrated through the unapproachable east to Impiltur, made boats and sailed round the coast and up the river Lis. Across the Moonsea and up through the Ride.

Now at that time Thar doesn't exist and the Ride I think is mostly still plains except for the end opening up into the Netheril Basin (where Yrlaancel is). So I was wondering if we know why The Ride is called that. Maybe these horse nomads raced through those lands on horseback giving The Ride its name.

Anyways I was wondering if you had given any thought to how and when those migrations occurred. I figure they could have arrived in the basin around -4000 DR, that gives them 100 years plus to settle those villages and get established.

hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 19:43:48

The problem with the earliest archealogical evidence of the netherese people is that the netherese gave up on investigating their anscestors when they found out that they didn't possess any magic.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 19:46:53

Well I'm not so sure those remains are the Netherese peoples ancestors. The remains are of a people that used to live in the basin. Probably people that the Sarrukh used as slaves.

The Netherese are of a completely different stock to the Rengarth (who may be related to these ancient archaeological remains) it mentions the physical differences between them many times.

Dreamstalker
Acolyte

USA
47 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 22:35:52

Languages brings some interesting evidence into the table. Using Dragon Annual 1999 as reference: The Ulou language group includes Netherese (dialects include low, high, Halruaan, and in Nimbral Ruathlek), High Ulutim (dialects among the Ice Hunters of the North, the Ulutiuns of the the Great Glacier), Low Ulutim (dialects include an extinct Rengardt one, the Bendine hybrid language that is as much Midani, one spoken by the marsh drovers of the Farsee Marshes bordering Cormyr, the modern Narfell language, the modern languages of the Ride), Chard (dialects include a unified Vaasan-Damaran, and a unified Vast-Impilturan), and D'tarig (heavily influenced by dwarvish). Adding in third edition lore, it appears that Damaran replaces some low Ulutim and Chard. The Ulou language group is part of the Faer�nian language family, including other such groups as Raumtheran (Sossic, then ancient Raumviran languages leading into Rashemi and influencing what is in 3.0 the Damaran language of Thesk), the Chessentan language group, Thorass/Chondathan language group, Illuskan language group, and Waelan language group(Ffolk language in third edition a subset of Illuskan language). The Imaskar family, Rauric family, and of course other continental families are foreign.

All of this leads to me thinking there might be an a basic proto-Faer�nian language and ethnic dispersal that coincided with the Imaskari founding and spread. The Faer�nian family would basically be everything north and west of the proto-Imaskari family, which in turn is bordered on the east by the proto-Karaturan family. These three proto families represent the basic undeveloped "culture/ethnicity/language" of humans on the eastern continents, from the period of the split super-continent until the Age of Humanity began to take off. The Talfiric people might be the source of Illuskans and Ffolk, various waves accounting for the various inconsistencies regarding the history of the various Northmen maybe being the oldest or second oldest. The Thorassian group would basically form into Jhaamdaath and later most of the Heartlands, probably the oldest or second oldest group. The Ulou and Raumtheran (proto-Raumviran) groups probably represent the northernmost groups. Perhaps the Ulou group was the most successful and widespread across the high North and last to really develop due to the fading influence of Proud Folk, Dragons, Giants ect being stronger in the Ulou regions. The Raumtheran group kept small by the Imaskari on one side, and the Ulou's "oppressors" on the other.

Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2014 : 09:04:10

Well i'm going slightly off topic here but its important to know where people come from before you can understand their culture and more importantly their gods.

So i can only go from what information is in the books and here is the summary.

1 - The Rengarth barbarians are of a different stock to the Netherese

2 - An ancient cave dwelling human subrace lived in the Netheril Basin a long long time ago (so probably during the time of the creator races.

3 - Illuskans (Northmen) didnt arrive on mainland Faerun until just before -3000 DR

4 - The Rashemi arose from various tribal peoples who lived in the and of Rashemen long before the fall of Imaskar in �2488 DR.

5 - The modern day Gur are honour obsessed and speak a dialect of Rashemi and it is thought they fled their ancient homeland during the Raumathar narfell conflict. (However this is probably wrong given that the Great Conflagration didnt happen until -151 and since it is only stated as "thought" they could have migrated much earlier)

6 - Netherese were a dark haired, fair skinned people with the Loross language as an alphabet

7 - The Talfir are an ancient race of humans that were documented living in Shantel Othreir during the Crown Wars by the elves. They are dark haired and fair skinned.

So given the above points i propose a number of events. First the ice and cold was much more widespread in the past than even now. Before Netheril was formed the Cold Wood which is near Ascore was under a glacier.

So some Rashemi people that lived in Rashemen long before -2488 DR migrated out of that land heading west. They couldnt get through Vaasa or Damara because it was under ice so they went through Impiltur. Now here is a bit where i'm making stuff up. It is possible that given the much lower latitudes of ice in the past that part of the Sea of Fallen Stars was frozen - so too would be the Moonsea. So these Rashemi just walked across the sea looking for a new home and found a largely deserted Basin (the Netheril Basin).
They found ancient evil ruins in the eastern lands (Sarrukh ruins) so they primarily occupied the western half.

A tribe of people from the Hordelands Basin followed the Rashemi sometime later (it may have been they who displaced the Rashemi in the first place and they were later displaced themselves by the glaciers) and took the same route and crossed the same semi frozen seas (in winter). They ended up in the Netheril Basin and took up residence around Seventon.

So we now have a Rashemi language in the region and people from the Hordelands (lets call them the Gur tribe).

This all happened around -4000 DR.

Also living in the southern Netheril Basin were a few scattered tribes of Talfiric people that would later form lands such as Thaeravel. Their ancestors remains are what the Netherese discover as the cave dwelling humans their archaology expeditions dig up. These people would have been slaves of the Sarrukh.

Now when Netheril falls we have Netherese stock moving into the Ride. We have Rengarth moving west into the savage frontier.
We also have all the people mingling in parts to form the Gur people that become nomads in the Western Heartlands.

How does that sound????

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2014 : 09:26:23

The reason i am looking at the Netherese origins and migration pattern is that their gods strike me as almost alien to the cultures in the Netheril Basin.

The barbarians use totemic magic and so i assume they worship ancestor spirits (much like those in Rashemen).

The Netherese themselves dont appear to be a very devout bunch at all. If they were indeed from the Hordelands Basin then that would explain why, gods are a recent concept to the Hordelands and before that i would imagine they worshipped ancestor spirits much like the Rashemi.

So where do Jannath, Moander, Targus, Shar, Kozah, Ammaunator, and others come from.

Now Shar is ancient and given the Talfiric connection to shadows (I believe Verraketh the shadowking was Talfiric). Then ideas of her worship would be in caves and paintings all over the Netheril Basin where the Talfiric people dwelled.

So i could easily see the Netherese learning of her worship in that way. Ammaunator may well be a Netherese creation as a natural counterbalance to Shar. So they discover Shar the god of darkness and those that disagree with her ideology venerate the sun which brings Amaunator into being. Or he could also be Talfiric in origin.

Moander has been stated in the Netheril book as being responsible for destroying the creator races in this area so he has been around a long time here and probably had quite a few ancient temples lying around (the Talfiric may even have reverred him as a saviour of sorts for freeing them from the Sarrukh slavery)

However the point i am getting on to is that there were other ruins and archeological remains in the Netheril Basin other than Talfiric humans. The Sarrukh had a very heavy presence in times gone by.

Is it possible that the humans could have come across Sarrukh ruins and accidentally begun venerating ancient Sarrukh deities in their own way. Laogzed or Sseth could have been masquerading as Kozah or Targus and begun granting spells while secretly manipulating the humans to their own ends.

I know it says that these deities were subsumed into other gods later on but it may just be that when Netheril fell the Sarrukh gods stopped granting spells in their name and Tempus then took over granting spells as the Netherese encountered other peoples that worshipped a different war god called Tempus. It may even be that once they were no longer useful the Sarrukh deities simply cast off the Kozah or Targus avatar and left them as separate entities that roamed the Netheril Basin until another god came and claimed them (after all maintaining an avatar must cost some divine power)

Kozah certainly looked at times to be undermining the Netherese empire. At the end his clergy actively targetted the archwizards with assassination squads. Even a god of destruction wouldnt seek to completely destroy the only bastion of worship he has because he would die shortly after, and there was no doubt that by the end the Netherese were being exterminated.

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 24 Jan 2014 09:32:39

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2014 : 16:37:29

Ooh, in -836 in the Far Forest a spelljamming vessel crashes and scouts report seeing beholders emerging from the vessel.

I know there are several different beholder hives in the lands around Anauroch. I wonder if this was the arrival of one of those hives?

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