| Author |
 Topic  |
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 17:06:57
|
Apologies to all for my part in derailing the conversation earlier in this thread.
On topic. I am very skeptical that the novel line can successfully join the two Realms' eras. Markus' idea of writing novels is likely the best route to take, but none of the possible routes are ideal. IMO, we should have some novels that cater to all. That is, some novels written strictly in the pre-4e era (and maybe in pre-2e and 3e as well) with other novels written in the 4e and 5e eras IN ADDITION to those novels that move back and forth (such as the Cormyr and Evermeet novels). That way, everyone gets a little something of their preferance. But I don't see that happening...so, in the end, Markus' idea holds the most merit (and the most likely rode to take if WotC wants the novel line to continue to be successful).
As to characters. Although I think The Companions was one of RAS's best books (top 5 for me along with the first two Dark Elf novels and the first two Crystal Shard novels), too many characters being 'preserved' from earlier editions requires too much suspension of belief, even for a high-fantasy setting. I don't have a huge problem with it...but it will get tiresome for many readers if it's over done. I'm okay with some characters being 'rewritten' as descendants but, again, too much of it will get tiresome (I'm not sure if that's even been done TBH...I'm just saying it could be problematic).
I do want to see an new Azoun who is a 'mirror image' of Azoun IV because I really like that guy. I would like to see the types of antics he got into when he was younger and see first hand how he was molded into the king he became (since Vangy is still around I see this as doable).
I also want the Chosen back (all of them, but especially Khelben) and I don't care how tiresome 'preserving' them would be...at least they are immortal (or close to it).
There is so much more I could write that I would likely derail the conversation again (like all of the nuked lands...that one really gets me blood boiling) so I wont go there. All of this leads to the internal tug-o-war I do with the setting these days. I long for the original feel of the Realms and yet I have to realize the unlikelihood of its return (mostly because so much was nuked). So, I remain cautious in my optimism. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
 |
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2013 : 06:52:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Uhm, i don't know if i should post this,
In my experience, if you're not sure then it's better not to post.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Something, mind, that Ed has said must change.
That's what makes it alive.
Please refrain from giving biased meanings to Ed's words (snip).
Funny you should say that.
The first time I ever heard Ed say--in no uncertain terms, mind--"the Realms must change" was in person at GenCon, when he introduced the Spellplague to those in attendance at a Realms seminar.
Since then that concept has been repeated in Forging the Realms articles and demonstrated in "Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms".
The information I gave isn't biased. It's factual.
#########
I'm confused by the assertion that the novel lines "aren't popular."
WotC has been producing 4E Realms novels at a pretty steady pace. They even ponied up the money to turn current and prior novels into audio books.
The one thing WotC has done consistently is follow the money.
How does it follow that they novels aren't popular? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 16 Nov 2013 06:57:05 |
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2013 : 08:15:02
|
quote:
The first time I ever heard Ed say--in no uncertain terms, mind--"the Realms must change" was in person at GenCon, when he introduced the Spellplague to those in attendance at a Realms seminar.
This actually disturbs me to no end. Ed is on record (in a widely watched interview) as saying he was upset with the changes, and yet, he towed the company line at the time. I know he didn't have much choice but it still bothers me. How are we to know the same isn't happening now? My optimism just became more cautious.  |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2013 : 10:33:55
|
(Warning: preachy wall of text follows. Ye've been duly warned.)
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
This actually disturbs me to no end. Ed is on record (in a widely watched interview) as saying he was upset with the changes, and yet, he towed the company line at the time. I know he didn't have much choice but it still bothers me. How are we to know the same isn't happening now?
Well it is happening now.
How can it not?
Consider: TSR, and later WotC, have always been in control.
I suppose you could say that during this time Ed has always toed the line too. This even though TSR and (of course) WotC made several decisions that (as I understand it), were Ed in charge, he wouldn't have made.
But that's not a mark against him.
On the contrary, it's a feather in his cap.
Think about that for a second. Happy or unhappy, for almost thirty years now he's stuck with it.
Mistakes and errors and contradictory information finding its way into sourcebooks and novels...no problem, he stuck with it.
Editors having to chop his stories because of TSR's restrictive code of ethics...he stuck with it.
Personal and family illnesses...he stuck with it.
When they dropped the Spellplague idea (well, bomb) on him, he stuck with it.
Even after quite a few people said "no thanks" to the post-Spellplague Realms and went on to give an emphatic "No!" to nearly every single new Realmslore product he (and others) have produced, he stuck with it.
And because he did, consider what's come out of it: we've gotten a lot of good Realmslore lately and been given a chance (through the Forging the Realms articles and Elminster's Forgotten Realms) to learn even more about the Realms as he first envisioned it.
Because Ed had the persistence and patience to wait for WotC to come around (tip of the hat to Bob Salvatore) we have the opportunity to reap the rewards, provided we're smart enough to stick around for it and wait to see what they do first before passing judgment.
So if we get multi-era novels like Markus is asking for, well that's great.
But if not, that's OK too, because the time of the 1300s has past and whether or not I have fun isn't contingent on WotC producing products for that small slice of time.
I choose to follow Ed's example, because he's proven that persistence pays off.
I'm sticking with the Realms.  |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2013 : 13:53:32
|
Okay, on that note I am going solely by my own personal experience with the novels - EVERYONE I knew that read FR novels (a number somewhere around 30) NO LONGER READ THEM, including myself. To be perfectly honest, many of those folk 'outgrew' D&D and FR before 4e even reared its head, and thats a big part of it (and skewing my results, so to speak). However, part of the reason at least a few them quit reading in the first place was this whole 'escalation' thing that was going on, with 'bigger & badder' RSE's every few months. That is a completely different problem then the one I am trying to resolve with this thread subject (and one that I hope also gets addressed, because they have promised that The Sundering will be the 'last hurrah' for the RSE's).
I am also friends with many of the authors (not 'best buds' by any stretch of the imagination - more like Facebook/internet friends, but I DO talk to them). In fact, after some of the harsh things I have said, I sometimes wonder why they stay friends with me - I realize being blunt can be pretty damn insulting, and I am sorry... I AM from NY. 
And through the things they've said (directly, and indirectly, through blogs and posts on forums), it seems that WotC is much more 'picky' of late with what they want to publish, and in some cases, published authors have even been down-graded to a straight-to-Ebook' format. Now, we all know what it means when movies go 'straight to video', and I get the feeling that this is the case with Ebooks as well. Sadly, this seems like a strike against the authors, but its more of a 'sign of the times'. Whats happening in the publishing industry is the same thing happening in the Toy & Game industry, and just about all forms of retail (I have personally seen it at Home depot and Walmart) - large corporations no longer want to sell 'okay-selling products', they only want best-sellers. In retail they have this arbitrary stupid system called 'shelf real-estate' to determine if a product is worth still carrying (each shelf has to make a certain amount per month). This is most ludicrous and unrealistic thing I have every seen in business - companies only want to selling 'winners'. Well, goodie for them - thats what everyone wants, but it just doesn't happen. You should see the hell I go through when I try to get parts for something at Home Depot! My point is, not everyone can be a RAS, and they need to understand that - a shared-world can't revolve around one author all the time.
Okay, enough side-tangent business 101. We all know corporate muckity-mucks live in Asgard and sip Nectar and fly around in their private jets... and have no clue what the real world is like.
So part of the problem with the books (including sourcebooks here) is that they ONLY want to publish (in hard-copy) 'winners', so they look at what has sold in the past (both authors and subject-matter) and decide, "Yeah! More of THAT!" What that does is leave us with a never-ending cycle of regurgitated crap, whether it be Drizzt or Waterdeep, and we will never see anything new, because they can't bank on it.
So what does all of that have to do with the novel line? I think we are all aware of some 'smelly' novels that made it past the editor in the past, and like it or not, they are now part of our 'canon'. Hit-or-miss, we had to accept it all, and that was because they weren't so particular about what was published. Now they ARE, which means far less books are getting published then were in the 1e/2e/3e era, and far less books means far less income from the novel dept. It isn't just us not buying them, its also them not printing them. The big problem with that is that they really have nothing to base any of that on, other then one or two guy's opinions about what they think fans will like. Sometimes a novel they think would be bad could turn into the greatest hit - we need those 'smelly' novels to weed-out the good from the bad. You just can't do that ahead of time - its insane that they think you can.
And thats what I base my "the novel sales are sagging' commentary on. Personal observations, snippets said here and there by people who actually know whats going on, and by being 50 years old living in the very heart of 'the rat-race' (NY) and knowing precisely how everything works, and how these types of decisions are made (and sadly, why they fail). Its a self-defeating, downward spiral. Companies CAN'T decide what fans are going to like - its IMPOSSIBLE! They think they can, but they can't. For a good example of this, read the story behind J.K. Rowling getting her first Harry Potter novel published - if it wasn't for a little girl who just happen to be in the right place at the right time, we would never have gotten that series of books - she just kept getting turned down (because idiot publishing houses looked at it and said, "this will never sell").
They have to stop selling us what they want, and sell us what WE want. The catch-22 is that we won't know what we want until they hit upon it, and given the current way things are done - only choosing things that have sold well before - that CAN'T happen. Focusing on one era moving forward is putting all their eggs in one basket - a basket that I think is pretty-patched up and could break again at any moment. If they spread the stories around - either by doing multi-era stories like I suggested in this thread, or by doing stories set 'all over the place' (time-wise) - then I think they will cover more ground with the fans, and have a better chance of success.
@SirUrza - stories don't have to be about the 'big guns' of the setting. Many of us have been clamoring for novels set around major historic events, like some of the wars of the past. Every novel doesn't have to be about Khelben or Elminster or Drizzt, I just want them to use FR's rich history, not just put it on a shelf and keep grinding forward. Hell, one of the best FR books ever written (if not THE best) is Elaine's Evermeet novel, and that covered a time-span of 30K+ years! I think more like that would be unbelievably awesome. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2013 14:07:59 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2013 : 14:24:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
quote:
The first time I ever heard Ed say--in no uncertain terms, mind--"the Realms must change" was in person at GenCon, when he introduced the Spellplague to those in attendance at a Realms seminar.
This actually disturbs me to no end. Ed is on record (in a widely watched interview) as saying he was upset with the changes, and yet, he towed the company line at the time. I know he didn't have much choice but it still bothers me. How are we to know the same isn't happening now? My optimism just became more cautious.
How are we sure the same isn't happening now? Well, when he told me he was excited about what was coming, it was unprompted, and it was in a private email exchange between he and I. Unless a WotC person was literally looking over his shoulder at the time, he had no reason at all to toe the company line. And he has, on prior occasions, said things that did not toe the company line. So I am quite confident that when he told me he was excited, that he meant it.
Now, for his quote at the time of the Spellplague -- saying the Realms had to change is not endorsing it being blown up. I can say my hairstyle needs to change, and simply get a haircut -- I don't have to shave it all off. It is my belief -- and I *think* he has stated it elsewhere -- that Ed stayed aboard during the 4E era because he otherwise wouldn't have had any ability to steer things in the setting.
To use another analogy, when it becomes obvious your ship is about to hit an iceberg, you can take your hands off the wheel entirely and let the ship be destroyed, or you can frantically steer off to one side, in hopes of controlling the impact, keeping the ship afloat, and getting past that obstacle. Please note that this is just an analogy, and not a comment on any edition. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Novels: Yet another "5e idea"
