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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 15:44:40
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The original title of this thread was, "Cartography, psuedo-canon, and just some stuff", but I didn't even really address most of that LOL...
So as I was working on my mash-up Misbegotten Realms (YES, I know I mention it a LOT... sorry  ), I've been trying to get all the stuff from the Scales of War/Red Hand of Doom campaigns into the northern Shaar were it actually belongs (although "the names have been changed to protect the innocent"... or some-such). Anyone looking at the maps from those two campiagns - One 3e, the other 4e - can clearly see that"Lake Rhestin" is really "Lake Lhespen", and some of the other names are pretty similar. I suppose this was part of the late 3e/4e mentality of 'adventure anywhere', and they didn't want it tied specifically to FR. WHATEVER...
So after I did this on my Homebrew maps, I decided to paste those maps into the canon 3e one, and also the one of Overlook (also from Scales of War... the fit was pretty bad, but its such a tiny area it doesn't really matter all that much). I'll have to tweak the Dun Hills a tad, but the geography in this particular region was changed dramatically between 1e/2e and 3e (more then anywhere else), so I figured a little 'poetic license' was fine.
Which brings me to my next problem... The Border Kingdoms. When I pasted that map in (from Powers of Faerūn), it turns out that it is from the original 1e/2e geography (before the 9.2° rotation, so I had to rotate that map to align with the canon 3e campaign map (which irks me no end... but the other maps won't work at all with the older terrain layout). So here I am, with all four maps pasted in (just for S&G), and then I recalled having placed Nentir Vale in this same region when folks were first talking about 5e (because The Border Kingdoms were suggested as a possible 'start area', considering the undated lore we have about it). My old placement (Nentir Vale in/next to the Border Kingdoms, because I REALLY like Nentir Vale) didn't work so well, but I noticed I had some room just below the Firesteap Mountains, so I put it there and its a petty darned good fit; almost perfect in fact - I have to tweak the heck out of the Shaarwood, and it would have been nice to connect the swamp to the marsh (but that would have place Shaarmid in the middle of that mess), otherwise everything works-out fairly well.
So now I have all five maps pasted into the Shaar region, and I can't help thinking... this would make a fun campaign map. Only thing is, I will never use it, because I have my mash-up now (I've already placed Nentir Vale elsewhere). So the only reason I would do this - convert all the campaign information over to the 3e art (and campaign map) would be 'for posterity', and by that I mean, would anyone be interested in using such a thing? I do these for fun, true, but I'd hate to think I would just be wasting my time on this one.
As for the other map projects - still working on all of those. This is just my ADD kicking-in again (although, unlike most of those projects, this one has a definite goal and end - one thats achievable in a decent amount of time). There's also the possibility that the 'powers that be' see this, realize they have a great helping of lore that needs a (5e) home - The Nentir Vale - and consider this placement. Even if they decide to go back up North (which they may, considering the recent re-interest in the Daggerford region), it doesn't mean this can't be a place for an alternate campaign. I am hoping 5e will be about choices, so having the focus on more the just one region would help with that.
I would call this one 'New Shaareach', in honor of a realm we lost. Ahhhh, Shaareach... we hardly knew ye'...
*Grammatical Corrections
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Oct 2013 14:07:18
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 17:53:30
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| I'd say the more maps the better, but I'm probably not the only one anxiously awaiting a full corner to corner completed "psuedo-canon" map. :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 18:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
...would anyone be interested in using such a thing?
Do it. Do it. Do it.. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 20:21:43
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| I will use it...that much I can promise! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 20:47:36
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| In this case, MORE IS BETTER so go for it. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 07:33:58
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I hate to repeat what other's have said, so I'll quote someone who's already expressed the same sentiments (and who used exactly the same words that I would have);
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
...would anyone be interested in using such a thing?
Do it. Do it. Do it..
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Edited by - Drustan Dwnhaedan on 29 Sep 2013 07:35:43 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 07:58:29
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By now Markus should know that he doesn't need to ask. He just needs to get 3/4 of the way done with a project, give us a teaser image of part of the work, let anticipation build and then unleash the awesome with a bi-weekly or monthly update.
I bet if he started a thread in the Running the Realms section it'd get stickied by a mod faster than you can say "do it." |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 19:47:46
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quote:
I bet if he started a thread in the Running the Realms section it'd get stickied by a mod faster than you can say "do it."
If it didn't I'd break out my hamster traps. 
MT: Just my two coppers, but as far as I'm concerned, the more game worlds/campaigns you add the better. My reasoning is to have absolutely the most adventures possible to play in a world...but that's all easy for me to say given that I'm simply exploiting you as slave labor.  |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 15:40:13
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So I have been working on this, and as usual, I gave myself more work then I needed to. I ran into a bit of problem (when don't I? Damn you, 3rd edition campaign map!!!) when I used the Border Kingdoms map and decided NOT to rotate it (even rotated the right amount, it didn't fit the old geography quite right). This means I had to fudge Lapaliya to something between 2e and 3e...
..and so it goes. The rest also continued to be a blend of the old and new, because everything won't work if I choose one or the other. On the bright side, I am really liking the adventure path (Scales of War), even if the lore isn't shoe-horning with FR as nicely as I first thought (not the Netir Vale lore - I have that covered). Apparently they only used the Shaar maps and decided to completely ignore most of the Shaar canon (I have orc hordes where Shaaran tribes ought to be). And then there is Vecna... damn you 4e for using everything D&D wherever the hell they wanted. 
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Just my two coppers, but as far as I'm concerned, the more game worlds/campaigns you add the better. My reasoning is to have absolutely the most adventures possible to play in a world...but that's all easy for me to say given that I'm simply exploiting you as slave labor.
I want this to be entirely WotC, and I decided to do this because I wanted the SoW and RHoD to work within FR (because of the maps, naturally). The adventure background info isn't all bad: for example, Hobgoblins in the Shaar region make perfect sense (they had an empire there back in the Age of Thunder). The Nentir Vale and Elsir Vale (Shaareach) compliment each other nicely, and having the Border Kingdoms nearby is just an added bonus. LOADS of sandbox adventuring potential in this region.
HOWEVER, even though I want this to be entirely WotC, there is an area just to the east of Nentir Vale that looks suspiciously like Darkmoon Vale. Its even to scale... what a co-ink-eedink. 
I may just decide to run a game here after all (but no worries, I will get back to the Misbegotten Realms, eventually). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Oct 2013 15:43:38 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 16:58:23
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A WIP of what I have so far.
Its not much - its still has to be labeled, and I have more terrain tweaking to do, plus it needs more settlements placed, etc, etc...
But its getting there.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Oct 2013 16:58:36 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 13:44:52
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I just posted a pic of how I got all that geography, with map-overlays from various products, to help explain what I did to Mapolq in his Sespech thread. You can see the explanation there, but you can view the map...
HERE. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 14:08:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just posted a pic of how I got all that geography, with map-overlays from various products, to help explain what I did to Mapolq in his Sespech thread. You can see the explanation there, but you can view the map...
HERE.
It's great seeing this wondrous work in the making.
Where do you got the other settlements (beside Funearil, Urbeth and Nlintar) of Tharsult? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 14:11:53
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| From the WotC website - you can see the full map (thats another pasted piece you are looking at) on THIS PAGE. Its the second map you can download. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 15:30:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
From the WotC website - you can see the full map (thats another pasted piece you are looking at) on THIS PAGE. Its the second map you can download.
Uh-oh. Must have missed it in the days of WE download frenzy.
Thanks and keep up the good work! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 17:03:27
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Those particular maps were never included in the map and picture gallery, where all other such items were located. They made them a bit harder to find, for some bizarre reason. You had to look-up the Serpent Kingdoms product (and read about it), which lead you to those links.
Although they did a bang-up job trying to get all the older locales on those nice (3e) maps, I am a little disappointed they left-out all of the Erlkazar settlements. Poor Erlkazar, it never gets any respect (despite being not only the region for a quintilogy by RAS, it was the focal point of two stand-alones, and was the site of the Final 3e-era RAS novel, The Ghost King!)
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 14:16:24
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Updated WIP.
LOL - I changed the thread title, and I just realized very little of Elsir Vale (Chanath Vale) is actually showing on this WIP.
Not really loving that river - the Talar/Elsir/Channath - it does some weird stuff in The Westdeep/Misty Vale Forest. That was a result of mixing the different edition maps together, along with the RHoD one. I need to really tweak that.
Bear in mind this map is a 50/50 homebrew, with a lot of Sespech locales borrowed from Mapolq's thread. Its intended as a homebrewed campaign, NOT a canon representation of The Forgotten Realms. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Oct 2013 14:19:32 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 17:14:44
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A Newer WIP
Some folks have inspired me to finish all my mapping projects. Hopefully I can do this before my depression sets back in (toward FR, not something personal). Some of these are so close to finishing it would be a shame that no-one got any use out of them.
Thanks for all the support up 'till now. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 19:52:00
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Reviewing your work i just realized how much the area was changed from 2e to 3e, your work will be invaluable to set things straight (at least for me, i don't mind a handful or more non-canonical locations).
Is "Gruumsh's Crucible" one such location? I didn't find it in the RHoD map nor in the 3e Shining South map, is it from Nentir Vale? Or homebrew?
Thanks for the outstanding work, as always. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2013 : 15:01:27
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First off, THIS MAP is non-canon, unlike some of my other current projects, including the Impiltur one. Including Nentir vale from the 4e core material is the most obvious deviation, but sevral other sites are homebrew - some to weave disparate lore together, and others "just because I can".
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Reviewing your work i just realized how much the area was changed from 2e to 3e, your work will be invaluable to set things straight (at least for me, I don't mind a handful or more non-canonical locations).
Is "Gruumsh's Crucible" one such location? I didn't find it in the RHoD map nor in the 3e Shining South map, is it from Nentir Vale? Or homebrew?
Thanks for the outstanding work, as always.
Gruumsh's Crucible came out of two things - a bit of weirdness that developed as I 'corrected' the terrain between editions. I wound-up with that 'bowl' between the vales and the Landrise. The name itself was a place-holder, but it has grown on me. The idea for the name came from some of the Nentir Vale material, which is MOST CERTAINLY NOT FR CANON. I just love Nentir Vale and all the great work that went into it (probably because I love everything Mike Schley maps!), and I desperately want them to somehow incorporate it into FR (The Sundering should make that possible - since 4e FR's geography has become similar to Ravenloft in its malleability).
The idea for that name grew out of one of the few things in Nentir Vale I didn't care for - that orcs (half-orcs) and dwarves share the city of Hammerfast... which is really bizarre, especially when applied to FR (RAS's Baffenburg aside). In order to make it more palatable, my idea for that region was to blend together the lore of that city with the other nearby locales and lore, including Pelaveran (apparently I spelled that wrong) and The Great Rift.
Basically, Pelveran was the capitol of the human realm Peleveria (that part is canon, but the canon does NOT state it was a human realm - that was left open). The beautiful thing about Pelveria is that almost nothing is known about it, aside from the fact it covered a huge chunk of the land on that map. So here's my thoughts on the matter - Peleveran was originally called Pelvergard ('cliff guard') and built by the dwarves of the Great rift, who for a brief time (a few centuries) decided to 'bring peace to the Shaar' by having a surface kingdom there (Peleveria). It was not just a dwarven kingdom - it included all the races living in that area. As always, the dwarves eventually retreated back into their caverns and left Peleveria to the humans to run for them, which then broke into a couple of smaller kingdoms, and eventually collapsed completely (that part merges together the stray bit from all the Elsir and Nentir vale material). The last of the independent human kingdoms in the area were obliterated during Calimshan's ventures into the region (much of which is detailed in both SS and SK). I never completed a timeline, just a basic outline, so I am uncertain how all of that falls-out.
Caveat #1 - different settlements have different names for stuff, and have been 'ruled over' by as many as a half dozen kingdoms in the past 1000 years - this helps us fudge things with the history and settlement names. There may have been one short-lived kingdom in the region after Calimshan left.
Caveat #2 - we really have no history for Peleveran, other then its existence, which is wonderful. I believe the canon designers meant to connect it to some 'obscure civilization from the distant past', so in order to keep that (presumed) premise, there is a 'secret' (DM-only) - the dwarves didn't build Peleveria - They FOUND IT. They 'dwarfed-it-up' to make it theirs, and sealed-off some areas they'd rather not venture into. After the human realm of Peleveria collapsed, the city was taken over by the Cult of the Dragon (again, canon), who were themselves eliminated in a civil-war between factions in 1018 DR. No-one - not the dwarves, the later humans, and finally the cultists - have explored it all, or knows who built it (the others all just assume the dwarves built it, since they were 'first', and the dwarves don't bother to correct this point).
Caveat #3 - the infamous (in my mind) 'Misty Vale highway'. {sigh} Thats a road that should be impossible, and despite all lore to the contrary, runs straight through the Witchwood (I turned Misty Vale into the Elven settlement itself, but the two names have become interchangeable depending on who you ask). During the time of the dwarven surface kingdom, the stout folk built many good, dwarven roads (and bridges) throughout the region. While they still occupy some of their former holdings (Hamerfast, Overlook, etc), they have abandoned many more. As part of this 'civilizing period', they managed to get some Hin to contact Ghostwise halflings - the ONLY group that aren't 'killed on sight' by the xenophobic Witchwood/Misty Vale elves. These Hin brokered a deal - the dwarves would protect their forest from 'external enemies' and keep it inviolate, IF they could build a road through the forest. Any being that strays more then 50 strides (about 150 feet) from the path can be killed by the wild elves, with no repercussions. Thus, the 'Misty Vale' (forest and settlement hidden at its heart) remains a 'preserve' for these elves, and just about everyone (even orcs, who fear entering the forest) continue to respect the elves, their wishes, and their lands. The road remains open, despite the retreat of the dwarves, so long as everyone continues to 'follow the rules'. Overlook is still 'watching over' the forest, at least from their end (because it is so vital to them), and dwarven patrols are frequent (along with many signs that constantly remind everyone to stay OUT OF THE FOREST!)
That last is my fix for 'the road that should have never been'. I am almost in the mood to get back to the accompanying Netbook for this map (I spent a lot of time weaving the lore together). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2013 15:04:18 |
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Elsir Vale: Should I do this?
