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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 16:45:32
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So here's my thinking - they really have no intention for doing 'support for all eras'. If they are counting some light 'background material' in products, well, FR has always had that, and a LOT better then anything I've seen of late. I haven't seen any product actually set in the past (as in, pre-4e era). The other thing we've seen is a bunch of undated material, but once again, I don't think that really counts (because we could have always done that as well - we didn't need their permission). If I wanted to adapt un-canon lore (apocryphal in this case, because it is canon, but undated canon), I could farm other settings for stuff.
So, since I am pretty certain we are NOT getting what a lot of us here were hoping for (a true compromise), I am thinking that there may yet be something worth salvaging - the 'back & forth' story. Elaine proved to be a master of this, with her Evermeet novel, and Ed (with others) have done this as well, in the Cormyr novels, and elsewhere.
What I think could work are stories set in two different time periods, with characters in both, that somehow 'interact through time' (either directly or indirectly). The final outcome of one story effects the other. Like I said, this has been done in FR aplenty, but I think if nearly everything was written in this manner, it could help to save The Realms moving forward.
So if you write a story about a tiefling in the 1480's - and it really doesn't matter how good the story is - tying it to events in the past (and detailing those events) would help me decide to buy such books. The current crop of stories need to be 'anchored', and I don't feel as if they are. They are just floating in some sort of post-Spellplague limbo, that most of us know very little about (or care to).
I had thought that pulling characters out of the past might work, but I can see now this is very comic-bookish, and a lot of us are already offended by how much it's occurring. We need those old characters, but we need them in their own timeline - cross-over (what I call 'back & forth') stories are the way to go, IMHO.
If we see Khelben in a novel, lets see him back in the 1300's, working on some 'clandestine plan' that will see fruition some time a century later... when the other half of the story is happening. I want cause & effect, not Michael Bay-ish, super-Sundering, laser light shows. You want to grow a garden, you have to tend to the roots as well; you can't just take care of what you see in front of you.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2013 16:47:40
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 17:08:55
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I think I'd enjoy reading some kind of dual timeline story where the outcome of the past is determine by the future or we see the events of the past played out and find out the outcome the same time the characters find out.
I don't think this kind of story is often repeatable, but it'd be an interesting read.
And I'm glad I'm not the only one that believes that "support for all eras" is just lip service. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 19:14:09
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You know, it gets really, really tiresome to see people saying what they think WotC is doing or is going to do, without anything to back it up, especially when this runs contrary to what WotC has said it's intentions are. 
Why can we not wait to see what WotC is going to do, before getting unhappy about it not being done? People are essentially bashing the 5E Realms without knowing anything about it -- much like the Realms-haters bashed the Realms and got us the massive changes of 4E.
Why are people so determined to dislike what's coming, despite their words to the contrary? You can tell me all day long that you're going to give it a chance, but when you're saying that WotC is lying -- and yes, saying they don't intend to live up to their promises is saying they are lying -- or saying, despite a total lack of evidence, that they're not going to do what you want, then it is clear you have no intention of ever giving them a fair shake.
No one who is complaining about something that hasn't happened yet is giving it a fair chance. Their minds are made up, just like the minds of those the Realms was blown up to cater to. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Nov 2013 19:14:45 |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 20:09:56
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Wooly, there's no way they can support all eras of play to the detail anyone wants. Everyone points to Menzoberranzan being such a great era neutral book, what I see is a book that shallow in it's detail, it's history, and seems to try hard avoiding specifics.
If Menzoberranzan is the foot print for D&D Next Realms, no thankyou. I'll buy a second (or third) around of AD&D Realms books to replace the ones getting shabby.
Zhentrim Keep isn't going to rise from the ashes, I don't see them wasting space on the the dead Seven Sister, and I don't see them skimping on material that only works in post-sundering era.
Hort of them rolling back the Realms or releasing two different product lines there's only so much 128 page supplements can cover. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 20:41:56
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Just because not everyone is going to get as much detail as they want does not mean that it's only lip service, or that WotC has no intention of actually doing it.
I'm already not getting what I want. I want them to roll back to the end of 2E, and start over from there. I know they are not going to give me exactly what I want -- yet I'm not accusing them of lying, nor am I prejudging published material that hasn't even been announced yet.
I'm giving them a chance. That's all I'm asking others to do -- stop prejudging, and give them a fair chance.
Ed Greenwood himself told me he was excited about what was coming. If the creator of the setting thinks what's coming is good, that's all I need. Maybe that's not good enough for everyone else, but I don't see how we can pass judgment on material that doesn't even exist yet. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 21:22:42
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I erased my entire post, twice. Edit: Thrice now
There just isn't anyway to sugar coat it.
I just hope you're not waiting in vain, Wooly. I truly believe 5e is already here, and has been for about a year now... they snuck it right past us. But whatever...
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 21:33:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I erased my entire post, twice. Edit: Thrice now
There just isn't anyway to sugar coat it.
I just hope you're not waiting in vain, Wooly. I truly believe 5e is already here, and has been for about a year now... they snuck it right past us. But whatever...
If you believe that, then you're not giving them a fair chance, as you previously said you were doing.
Lurue knows I got burned with the release of 4E. But I'm still going to give them a chance. I cannot decide if something is good or bad without all of the information on it, and with nothing released yet, we don't have any information. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 21:54:56
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| I'm just in the wait and see boat... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 22:17:36
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It is extremely difficult to judge what the 5e era will look like without seeing a single gaming product that is based in that era. I actually think WotC is making the right move right now by trying to add definition to the new era with the Sundering series and their current adventure modules. The 4e changeover was heavily criticized among other things for its lack of detail and they are really putting a lot of effort to add detail this time around.
As a side note, there was nothing cheap or comic bookish about The Companions. That is one of RAS best novels to date(probably somewhere in his top 10) and really puts a lot of effort into showing the sacrifices that the Companions make to resume their lives. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 00:19:06
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I think a Greenwood-Cortijo team up novel focused on Cormyr pre and post-Spellplague would be awesome.
Something that touches on Queen Fee's Blades, Alusair's life after leaving her Regency and Vangey's fate would be cool. I am not sure what to focus on/tie this in with for post-Spellplague Cormyr, but I think Brian would be up to the challenge.
Markus I take it you've given up on giving up on Alusair as a character? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 03:03:45
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| You know what, Markustay had the right idea. Nevermind. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 14 Nov 2013 03:04:18 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 13:43:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Markus I take it you've given up on giving up on Alusair as a character?
Was the double-negative on-purpose, or a typo? 
I haven't given up on Alusair - there is a great story to be told there. Filfaeril as well - they are both amazing characters, and the Realms needs its 'strong women' back.
Here's the thing - when I do a map project, I delve deep into old FR lore and maps, which unfortunately has the side-effect of irking the heck out of me when I realize how much great material was completely ignored or over-written over the years. I have seen nothing that looks like the old Erik Boyd or Steven Schend material... yet. When I see something that actually feels like those old sourcebooks, I will be happy.
FR Novels don't make me happy anymore - I'm really afraid they never will. Thats why I started this thread - I WANT to be a fan of the novels gain, but I want to read about events during the setting I fell in love with. The new setting is not that setting, and I think hoping that 5eFR will be that setting is asking for too much. What I have learned from all this is that its not the geography that makes a setting a setting, its the people and their stories... and those are all gone now. Even if you bring a host of old characters back, we just get some weird 'Khelben in space' type of scenario, and it just cheapens everything that happened in the old setting.
So, if they do these type of hybrid novels - going back and forth between two periods (and many have done this before, like Ed and Elaine, with aplomb), I WILL READ THEM, and there is a chance I will get drawn into the new stories about the new characters. I truly want to like 5e FR, but it is hard to do so, when looking at the the big mess we just left behind. They need to embrace the 'support for all eras' thing, and not just in game products.
Novels based in other game-worlds tend to be historic in nature (the few I have read, anyway), so why not go that route? Why must FR novels forever be driving the setting forward? Thats counter intuitive, IMHO. As soon as a novel takes place somewhere, it has made some game product obsolete, and that is how FR 'gets broken'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2013 15:26:03 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 15:12:09
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I am (very) cautiously optimistic for 5e. I wont go so far as to say that Ed's "excitement" over the upcoming Realms tips the scales for me (he is biased and it's in his best interest to promote his world, after all)...but it does give me HOPE. Ed has always come across as genuine when discussing his thoughts and opinions, and that's enough to make me optimistic.
Now, as I see it, the problem is we need MORE of an appetizer for the upcoming material. Wizbro has a few adventures, novels, videos, summits and interviews discussing the 5e Realms...and yet they have revealed very little and the hype is, well, anti-climactic, IMO. There is still too much 'hush-hush' surrounding the new Realms and the advertising is a bit lean.
While I agree we should wait to pass judgement until the product line is released in full, I understand Markus' frustration. For me, that frustration centers on the lack of information and marketing. Sorry to say it, but Paizo is eating Wizbro's lunch. Hopefully Wizbro can once again set the industry standard but I think the only way to accomplish that is to bring back some of the 'old' crew and require new writers to do their homework on the lore before writing anything (novels or otherwise).
Just my two coppers. Cheers. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 15:43:52
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Which means pouring more money into a division that Hasbro would rather just let die... and the only reason why we still have a D&D is because it shares a 'brand' with MtG, which is the ONLY part of WotC Hasbro really has any interest in - thats right from about a dozen 'horses mouths' at last years Gencon, and not a 'hush-hush' type of thing - they were VERY open about that. Basically, if MtG suddenly drops in popularity, D&D disappears forever.
Paizo is a new 'superpower' in the gaming world, and WotC is the 'declining empire'. Those rarely ever 'bounce back' - they are hemorrhaging human resources ATM. You can't build a shiny new aircraft carrier with an erector set.
HOWEVER, if the novel line suddenly undergoes a renaissance, and FR takes-off again (by getting back all those old fans, dammit!), THEN Hasbro may decide to start pouring money back into D&D.
Like it or not, that is where we are at - we NEED for the novel line to become popular again, otherwise I just see us bailing-out a sinking ship with a few leaky paper cups. Which is why I started this thread - connect the two settings together - get those fans BACK - and we just may be able to get this old tub back to port, safe and sound.
Now when the heck did I go all 'nautical' with my analogies?
I usually go the computer/tech route. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2013 15:45:35 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 16:17:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
FR Novels don't make me happy anymore - I'm really afraid they never will. Thats why I started this thread - I WANT to be a fan of the novels gain, but I want to read about events during the setting I fell in love with. The new setting is not that setting, and I think hoping that 5eFR will be that setting is asking for too much. What I have learned from all this is that its not the geography that makes a setting a setting, its the people and their stories... and those are all gone now. Even if you bring a host of old characters back, we just get some weird 'Khelben in space' type of scenario, and it just cheapens everything that happened in the old setting.
When we have absolutely zero published 5E Realms material, how can you say the new version is not the same as the old version? When we have designers specifically stating they want to get back to the original feel of the setting, how can you say they've failed without reading what they've done? And why is it apparently impossible for them to create new and interesting characters?
I get not being into the 4E Realms -- I've taken more fire than anyone else here on that particular topic, and have in fact been personally insulted for my stance. But that doesn't mean that all of the characters from that time period are not worth reading about, and it doesn't mean there weren't good stories told during that time period.
We know a lot of the changes from the 4E era are going to be undone. We know that the designers want to go back to the 1E/2E feel of the setting. We know that the setting's creator is excited about what is coming. To me, all of that is more than enough to justify a wait and see approach.
I can also understand sharing what you'd like to see. I just can't understand the rush to dismiss things that don't even exist yet for not meeting your desires.
I do not think that asking for the 5E Realms to have the same feel as the 1E/2E Realms is asking for too much. It's what they've promised to try to do. If you like the earlier eras, I think you owe it to yourself to at least see what they do before dismissing it.
If you want to be a fan of the novels again, wait until there are some novels to read, and then make your decision. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 16:28:02
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The difference between us, I think, is that I feel 5e FR is already here - we've been getting samplings of it for the past year or so. you are still waiting for something 'grander' - something i fear may never arrive.
I hope there is more to it then that, but I am starting to get the feeling that what we see is all that there is. Until they leak a little more, 'The Sundering' is just another underwhelming 'Rise of the Underdark' or 'Abyssal Plague' - its just another way to market products. We need something concrete, because all the hype that they generated with the 5e announcement (D&Dn) is wearing-out, and people have gone back to whatever corners of the gamingverse they were hiding in before. Their 'window of opportunity' is closing fast, if it hasn't already.
WOW US, thats all I am saying. Gencon 2012 got me excited again - I need another 'shot in the arm'. Show us something we can sink our teeth into, and leave us drooling for more. They started off very well, but they are loosing momentum, fast. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2013 16:30:27 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 16:48:33
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To me, the 5E Realms won't be here until we have the 5E FR campaign book. Since they've not even announced a title or release date for it, nor for any other 5E FR products, it's not here.
Heck, all we have for Star Wars episode 7 is a release date and a blurb about the type of characters they are looking for -- that doesn't stop me from being excited about it, and it doesn't make me think that it's just going to be a rehash of the prequels or Clone Wars cartoon or anything like that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Nov 2013 16:51:44 |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 18:01:53
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| Difference with Star Wars 7 is different people are running the show Wooly. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 18:43:04
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Difference with Star Wars 7 is different people are running the show Wooly.
And the people running the show with the 4E Realms are not the ones running the show with the 5E Realms. Not only that, but this time, we know they're making a point to involve Ed.
Most of the people responsible for inflicting the 4E Realms on us are no longer at WotC. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 18:59:11
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I've been trying to avoid say this because it's very impulsive, but simply put about Realm-next or 5e Realms.. the "feel" or any other buzz word they're going to use doesn't matter to me.
There's a big hole in the map that leads to the underdark where land used to be, there's a new race I don't care for running around who come from lands I again don't care about (and was never given a good reason to care about.) There are nations and organizations that have been devastated or don't exist anymore. Gods and their followers have been destroyed or obliterated. Lastly there are characters that have died and been replaced by distant relatives.
They could take any of the campaign box sets, copy and paste them word for word and just update the proper nouns and I still wouldn't care.
My Realms is the Realms they nuked to make it generic for any number of reason.
If the supplements don't have proper support for 1360/1370 Realms play then they're useless to me.
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 14 Nov 2013 23:54:58 |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 19:43:30
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I have similar feelings as Markustay (or not). I won't pre-judge 5e, but I am neither particularly excited or hopeful about it. 4e ruined both brands for me (I won't delve into details unless asked via PM, I have no wish to spark any edition war flames).
I signed up for the 5e playtest material and can say I'm honestly unimpressed. Likewise my feelings for the Realms are similarly 'blah' (which I'll admit is unfair, since there's been so little material to even be 'blah' about).
Ultimately, I think I've just completely moved on from D&D and the Realms as products I purchase and that is what feeds my feeling of them now. From time to time I peek in to see what's going on with D&D and the FR, but ultimately I doubt I'll ever return as a consumer of content of either. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
Edited by - ZeshinX on 14 Nov 2013 19:44:06 |
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Farrel
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
239 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 19:59:47
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I've been keeping a very low profile in regards to saying anything about 5e, and what it means to the realms. After being singled out for a comment that I made about the shoddy stewardship in 4e.
I don't read the novels now. I did collect them quite rabidly at one point, but felt that as though the 3e/3.5e novels were all about one-upmanship, from the majority of the authors, to see who could create the most uber villain etc. - They smashed plot hooks without sowing the seeds for others - They played power games with NPCs that I believe were intended for the players to come up with their own ideas for. Meh...
There are so many viable eras of play within the history of The Forgotten Realms - Yet, apart from Arcane Age: Netheril, we've seen absolutely nothing. I've always wanted to be able to run campaigns in the early days of Faerun and, if necessary, carry them through to the current time (1348-1370ish)
I'm still waiting to pass judgment on 5e - I love the old realms of 1e/2e/3e/3.5e - But, I want lore for all eras of play.
If they concentrate on only the events after the Sellplague then they've lost me.
If they regurgitate all the same old sourcebooks, and cities, that have been done to death, specifically for 5e, then they've lost me.
If the books are all large font and white space then, again, they've lost me.
SirUrza puts it well.
My take on his last sentence would be:
If the supplements don't have proper support for 1340/1350/1360/1370 Realms play then they're useless to me. |
Edited by - Farrel on 14 Nov 2013 22:13:20 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 08:21:07
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I find it odd that people repeatedly extol the virtues of Realms history but lament the current (changed) face of the Realms and loss of characters, when the Realms, going back in time, both geographically and in terms of characters, was vastly different from a geographic/map perspective and saw the rise and fall of legions of interesting characters, of whom we've been introduced to only the least fraction.
If all of Realms history is a loaf of bread, the mid to late 1300s era is one very tiny slice. There's a whole lot of loaf left, going backward and forward.
I see comments about how the vast number of characters and their stories are "all gone," and I'm left wondering if the people who make these statements even bother to read anything Realms related these days.
I've collected names from about 80% of Ed's Eye on the Realms articles and two of his last three Elminster novels. Do you know how many unique names that sums up to?
About 650*. Not a small number, that, and it includes a ton of interesting people and their stories, some of whom have been around since before the 1300s and have always been a part of the Realms (including cabals, secret groups of monsters, you name it) but that never saw the light of day until now.
But strangely, to some fans these characters and groups don't count, even though they very much would had they been introduced in prior books (pre-4E Realms).
Lastly, much of the work Ed has done of late has centered on describing the Realms as it's always been, up and down the centuries since humans spread throughout the continent. The aforementioned historical information on people and places in the Realms lightly touched on in previous editions, the information on trade, on how people live and survive, how mercantilism effects the Realms...that's all applicable to any era you might care to play in, but almost nobody talks about it, even though that work has gone a long way towards knitting past and present together and showed how big events like the Spellplague don't necessarily change the true face of the Realms.
I realize people have their era preferences just like they have their game rules preferences, and they're giving feedback with good intentions.
It just doesn't make sense to me that people can ask for more, yet insist anything new isn't really of the Realms (or of use) unless it is specifically called out as having been set in a very narrow window of time.
I mean, that window of time didn't magically spring into being. It's part of something larger.
Something, mind, that Ed has said must change.
That's what makes it alive.
*Note this doesn't include characters from any of the 4E Realms sourcebooks, any other 4E Realms author's characters nor the NPCs listed in Ed's Forging the Realms articles. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 15 Nov 2013 09:42:33 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 10:25:18
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Uhm, i don't know if i should post this, i'll leave up to the mods to nuke this post of mine if it sounds too harsh or confrontational or something.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I find it odd that people repeatedly extol the virtues of Realms history but lament the current (changed) face of the Realms and loss of characters, when the Realms, going back in time, both geographically and in terms of characters, was vastly different from a geological perspective and saw the rise and fall of legions of interesting characters, of whom we've been introduced to only the least fraction.
This seems like you saying "Hey we ignored a thousand characters, we can ignore a hundred more" ... and unless you didn't notice, more than half the questions in Ed's and other authors/designers threads are about "who was X?" "what's become of Y?" ecc ... , all firmly anchored in the past. Because those past characters shaped the Realms and understanding them better meant understanding the 1300s better.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
If all of Realms history is a loaf of bread, the mid to late 1300s era is one very tiny slice. There's a whole lot of loaf left, going backward and forward.
There is no going foward now that the histories of Amn and Calimshan have been trashed: hordes of genasi? in the only land of Faerun with the laws (and the means to enforce such laws) that restrict planar contacts, teleportations and elemental magics? Laws that were there since the end of the ONE AND ONLY Era of Skyfire (as in 7500 years ago)? Or we want to talk about Amn, a land of trade and commerce that lost half it's territory (9/10 if you count New Amn) and it's biggest source of income (New Amn), a land were secrecy was of utmost importance and now we have the ruling council with houses sponsored by the Shadow Thieves and the Cowled Wizards (both clandestine organizations) with the Cowled Wizard sponsored one that did not exist before (house Selemchant?!? REALLY??!? because reading previous lore was hard ...)?
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Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I see comments about how the vast number of characters and their stories are "all gone," and I'm left wondering if the people who make these statements even bother to read anything Realms related these days.
I've collected names from about 80% of Ed's Eye on the Realms articles and two of his last three Elminster novels. Do you know how many unique names that sums up to?
About 650*. Not a small number, that, and it includes a ton of interesting people and their stories, some of whom have been around since before the 1300s and have always been a part of the Realms (including cabals, secret groups of monsters, you name it) but that never saw the light of day until now.
So what? How many of those are inextricably connected to the Spellplague and the 1400s? We ha wild talents ("spellscars") before, we had a host of interesting organizations and cults before, we had Jimmy the Smith and Jhonny the Watchman before, saying that you found another one hunderd War Wizard names is not much different than me presenting one hundred one-session NPCs to my players (i'm sure Ed knows off the top of his head the genealogies of HIS NPCs and their stories and their families' stories magnitudes better than what i can ever possibly do for even a single NPC but that doesn't make Named War Wizard n° 356 that appears to yell "Duck!" at Caladnei before being blasted to ashes any more important than any smith, watchman, butcher or bandit without a name).
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Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
But strangely, to some fans these characters and groups don't count, even though they very much would had they been introduced in prior books (pre-4E Realms).
And here's the catch, i bet that almost every name on your list culd be ported to the 1300s without having to nuke the Realms from orbit with the Spellplague (that's exactly what i'm doing with a lot of "Eye on the Realms" events/characters/organizations). So what's better? Having an interesting organization inside an interesting context full of other interesting organizations anchored on solid geographical and historical facts or having interesting organizations with half (and i'm being generous) the interactions and connections and rivalries?
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Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Lastly, much of the work Ed has done of late has centered on describing the Realms as it's always been, up and down the centuries since humans spread throughout the continent. The historical information on places in the Realms lightly touched on in previous editions, the information on trade, on how people live and survive, how mercantilism effects the Realms...that's all applicable to any era you might care to play in, but almost nobody talks about it, even though that work has gone a long way towards knitting past and present together and showed how big events like the Spellplague don't necessarily change the true face of the Realms.
And that's exactly why the "Eye on the Realms" and the "Backdrops" and the "Forging the Realms" and some of the lore heavier adventures have some traction with me and i try to incorporate them in the 1370s. Without Spellplague and timejump i would have a lot less fine tuning to do, a lot less work to port things.
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Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I realize people have their era preferences just like they have their game rules preferences, and they're giving feedback with good intentions.
Uh, thanks, I guess? You giving us the "benefit of the doubt", how generous of you ...
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
It just doesn't make sense to me that people can ask for more, yet insist anything new isn't really of the Realms (or of use) unless it is specifically called out as having been set in a very narrow window of time.
Problem is, the Spellplague and timejump made it so if we want to have the new lore go hand in hand with the old and respect it we have to scrutinize it, select the "good" stuff and adapt it. So when we are not "in the mood" or if we have not enough time you bet that the new shiny will be ignored since the old shiny was better and can work perfectly alone.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I mean, that window of time didn't magically spring into being. It's part of something larger.
The 1470s happened exactly like that: *WHAM* Spellplague *WHAM* timejump and here you go, something artificial largely removed from the past. And just to be clear, with no disrespect intended towards Ed and the others, having past characters pop out of the blue is not the same as having a reasonable connection to the past.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Something, mind, that Ed has said must change.
That's what makes it alive.
Please refrain from giving biased meanings to Ed's words, the changes brought to us by 4e were drastic and catatrophic and he himself wasn't all that happy with them.
By all means, let's wait for this new changes and let's see were they take us, but as the saying goes "hope for the best but prepare for the worst".
Change for change's sake wasn't a smart move in the past, now there are a lot of reasons to change, let's see where things go. |
Edited by - Demzer on 15 Nov 2013 10:26:16 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 10:29:20
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Don't know why but the order of the quotes is messed up in the above post of mine.
Well it seems to still make sense, hope no one gets confused. |
Edited by - Demzer on 15 Nov 2013 10:29:39 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 10:47:13
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| Like Wooley, I can only form opinions on what the designers have said and done. From a purely mechanics standpoint it does appear that they are trying to bring back that 'old school' feeling. Whether or not that attitude will transfer over to their campaign setting design is anyone's guess by it does look like they're trying to bring back a particular crowed. So far I've been pleased with most of the post-spellplague realms so I can only hope they continue on that track. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 12:30:35
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There was a reason I did not jump on the spell plague train. Yes I disliked the idea of the time jump and killing characters but I was excited to see how some authors handled it.
Truthfully, when you ran a campaign in halruaa and another mulhrohand with that pantheon, and suddenly both areas get nuked, I just do not see how they will fix it for me. I had 2 friends with characters they built over years suddenly decided they don't want to do this anymore.
Are they going to un-nuke halruaa and bring back horus-re/set?
Globally, they decimated a lot of places people had invested time in. Elaine Cunningham from what I recall, felt like her king's councillors trilogy was now moot.,etc
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 14:02:43
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@Diffan - I will probably run D&D using the 5e rules when they come out, unless I can't find anyone willing to play them (that happened to me with 4e... which was no problem, really, since I didn't want to run it anyway). I have always been an 'early adopter' of the newest rules, and enjoy teaching young people the game; using an 'old edition' to do that is counter-productive. Fortunately, in the case of 3e, Paizo made sure it didn't become an 'old edition'. It is still current, and people still enjoy using it.
Hopefully 5e rules will be 'good enough', and enough time will have passed since 3e's release that people are actually ready for another version this time. I hope so - I don't want to run Pathfinder, I want to run D&D. So long as 5e looks and feels like (pre-4e) D&D, then that will happen.
But this thread was not supposed to be another 'bash 4e' thread, and certainly NOT a 'bash 5e' thread - it was supposed to be a discussion about what kind of books I think would help 'heal the wound' that separates the split fanbase. I want to enjoy Realms fiction, but I don't want to read about this 'new era' I feel is STILL being rammed down our throats. When they announced 'support for all eras' I was one of the first to start singing their praises... but what I've seen - undated articles, old edition reprints, and some new adventures with very generalized, non-specific fluff - isn't what I signed up for... thats 4e all over again, with a nod to the old editions, but no true support.
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My idea for this thread was for authors to write stories for the rest of us - the ones that really have no interest in the post-1400's world. If a 3rd to half of a book did 'flashbacks' to earlier times, and showcased people I DO care about, then I would find them worth purchasing... and maybe, JUST MAYBE, I will also start to become interested in those new characters.
Bringing some of those old characters forward in time is just a 'bandaid', IMHO. Its jarring, and its not what I want at all. If the novels continue to ONLY be about the Spellplague era, then people will continue not to read them. The new fans - the people who came onboard in 4e - are almost entirely gamer-only. Its the 'old guard' that reads the novels, and yet, they haven't wrapped their minds around that at all. They are targeting their novels at a fanbase who doesn't want to read them, for the most part. The very few 4e FR players I know (my bro-in-law's son and his friends) don't read FR novels, and have no intention of ever doing so. Its rather simple, if you want to hit a target, you have to know what you are aiming at. The current crop of novels are being written for a non-existent group of (novel) fans, and for some bizarre reason the WotC guys haven't figured that out yet.
In fact, that might be the perfect solution - have the gaming material continue forward in the post-apocalyptic Realms, and write novels in the 1e/2e/3e Realms. Of course, they will never do that... which is a shame, because it would work. To me, reading a post-1400's book is like reading a graphic novel about a car-wreck that killed your whole family; why the heck would anyone ever want to do THAT? Thats just picking at a fresh scab. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Nov 2013 14:05:10 |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 15:51:54
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The problem I see with the idea of pre-4e era support, novel-wise, is one of an almost nihilistic futility. Almost. For me, it wouldn't matter, since the Spellplague is still there. It's why prequels tend not to work very well. You know what eventually happens, so any attempt to create suspense is more or less wasted.
Sure, homebrewing solves that well enough in a game, you can ignore it as you please....but the novels can't do that. The Spellplague/4e Realms will happen. They have to follow published canon.
That's my thoughts on it anyway. I'm sure others feel similarly. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 16:56:50
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While Markustay idea of dual timelines for novels was catchy, I said originally it was a limited format.
I don't expect "new" stories set in the past. I doubt we'll see Elaine come back and finish her tales of Arilyn and Danilo. How the Drizzt and Elminster novels were written pretty much leaves little to the imagination for new stories set in the past that don't amount too anything but filler. And to be honest, I think having novels written about whole new character set in the past will just confuse people.
But that said, there are characters and "time" write additional and/or final adventures.
Do I see that happening, absolutely not.
As far as the supplements go, I've said my peace about them. If The North box set is more useful to me then the Realms Next supplement for The North (assuming they make one) then I'll by another box set to keep them from disintegrating from use. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Novels: Yet another "5e idea"
