| Author |
 Topic  |
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 02:50:05
|
Okay so lets go through the check points
Any Temple can provide a way to power for those not mulan
Already a good selection of gods who are more then happy to slay undead
Plenty of gods that do this sort of thing without giving a damn about being evil or good.
So why does a fire god, get such a strong hold in such a unique place? Any Historical work on how it happened?
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 03:18:43
|
| I'm going from memory... but I think it was in Dreams of the Red Wizards which noted Kossuth enjoyed such reverence in Thay because the Red Wizards had a long and established concentration on fire magic. And Kossuth was largely the only deity who offered such focus for their experimentations with fire-based magicks. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
 |
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 05:17:33
|
| It was also Kossuth who helped resolve the Salamander War I believe |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 07:35:19
|
Sage has the right of it. See the following excerpt from Dreams of the Red Wizards, page 50 (highlight mine).
quote:
All of the elemental rulers are worshipped to some extent in Thay, but Kossuth is pre-eminent among the elemental lords. The Red Wizards have long concentrated on fire magic, and Kossuth and Myrkul are the closest thing to the dominant gods of Thay.
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 15:13:06
|
I figured he just fit-in with their whole 'red' theme.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 17:57:32
|
| Plus if one looks at the philosphy taught by the followers of Kossuth its feels kind of like a Pyrimid scheme so I can see poor desperate Thayans being sucked into that as well |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 18:33:01
|
The worship of the elemental lords is hinted as always having been powerful in the area in several articles, primarily due to the Raumathari Empire. Its also hinted that this area once was filled with worshippers who followed the Archfey of the Yuir. It may have been that at this early time, the followers in this area worshipped only primordials and Archfey (that's purely guessing) and not true deities (with their enemies worshipping demons). The Mulan gods may have been some of the first "godly" pantheons to come to the area, and that may have been why groups like the Imaskari thought of deities as just powerful beings (because they'd encountered few actual gods). That's all homebrew though, onto documented lore.
Onto more specifics, there are active volcanos in the area. The Raumathari dealt with the lord of Fire enough to know how to summon him and attempt to control him. Kossuth was also one of the few outsider religions allowed to remain in the area when the Mulhorandi faith was quashing any other worship in the area, so when the red wizards rebelled, this faith came back like a rocket (especially since they helped the Thayans overthrow their Mulhorandi Oppressors). The focus on fire magic by the red wizards and its efficacy in warfare, while being neutral in its requirements of worship, ensured that the Red Wizards who didn't want to be bound by any church mandates would favor this faith. The salamander war also helped secure the faith a bit more. A lot of good lore was found in Powers & Pantheons on this (see some of it below).
*********excerpt from Powers and Pantheons below, Flaming Brazier entry
***********
The city of Kensten was founded over two millenia ago as a Raumathar port city on the northern shore of what is now known as the Alamber Sea. It grew slowly, as it was far from the heart of the Raumathar empire which stretched to the shores of the Great Ice Sea.
In the Year of Recompense (-150 DR), Raumathar and Narfell destroyed each other in a great conflagration. It is believed that the cataclysm was caused in part by creatures summoned by Raumatharan wizards that they could not control despite their great skill in the magical arts andin dealing with the Outer Planes. In the last great battle of the two ancient empires, Raumatharan wizards in Kensten summoned Kossuth, the Lord of Flames, to destroy the Nar Armies. However, in addition to incinerating the besieging forces, the Firelord ignited the port city and burned it to ash in revenge for the Raumatharan wizards having the temerity to summon him. When Kossuth finally departed the Realms, much of hte northern coast ofthe Alamber Sea was in flames, and theonly survivors from the city were a few refugees who reached the Alaor (also known as the Aldor) in fishing boats.
Kensten was rebuilt and repopulated by Mulhorand in the Year of Old Beginnings (-135 DR) as the lands of the god-kings slowly expanded northward once again. As one of their first actions, the leaders of the newly refounded city were careful to erect a small temple ot the Tyrant Among Fire in the hopes of appeasing Kossuth's wrath and dissuading him from making future appearances in their region of the world. While the god-kings of Mulhorand were displeased by the foreign temple's construction, they were forced to tolerate its existence to quell a nascent rebellion among the city's burgeoning, but still fearful, populace.
For the next millenium, Kossuth's faith flourished in the lands north of the Sahuagin Sea despite the increasingly harsh efforts to repress it by Mulhorand's ruling pantheon. The faith's center of worship gradually shifted north to Tyraturos, a caravan and trading town built by Mulhorand whose surrounding dry planes were more amenable to the sensibilities of the faithful, but the bastion in Kensten was never abandoned and remained a sacred site for the faith.
When the rebellious Red Wizards defeated Mulhorand at the Battle of Thazalhar in the Year of the Spouting Fish (922 DR), Kensten briefly achieved its independence and the faith of Kossuth blossomed once again. During this time a new temple was built on the ashes of its predecessor (whose destruction by fire was a relatively common occurrence for temples of Kossuth built on the site) and named the Flaming Brazier.
The Kossuthans quickly begain to chafe under the harsh taxes imposed by the mercantile council that controlled the city, and when the Red Wizards besieged the city in the Year of the Fireslaughter (932 DR), the priests of the Flaming Brazier forged a secret alliance with the city's would-be conquerors. The city fell within a fortnight, and not a few wondered at the efficacy of the Red Wizards' fire magics in the attack. The Red Wizards renamed the city Bezantur in honor of the first high priest of the Kossuthan faith in the region and fully incorporated it into Thay. The priests of the Flaming Brazier were left unmolested and their treasury untouched in exchange for their having carried out their part of the treacherous pact.
....there's more in the entry... I recommend reading it all |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 23:50:20
|
The Red Wizards also inherited much of their formative magic from Mulhorand, the Radiant South, and perhaps even exotic Zakhara - places where element-based magics have much more influence than the “Western“ schools of effect. I also recall once reading that early Red Wizards learned much of their magic from fiends, although I cannot recall the source.
Many higher-level magics involve the invocation of relevant deities, and I suppose the arrogant Red Wizards who only reluctantly pay minimal lip service to Mystra have a tendency to invoke Velsharoon for necromancies, Kossuth for burnings, etc etc. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2013 : 05:33:16
|
| Kinda odd how similar Thayans are to Fritz's Fire Wizards of the East eh? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2013 : 04:17:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Kinda odd how similar Thayans are to Fritz's Fire Wizards of the East eh?
One day I really need to pick up Fritz Leiber's works and read them. Hopefully I won't be as disappointed as I was by Elric (though maybe if I push past the first few works of Elric, I'm certain it gets better... its just the effort). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2013 : 15:25:26
|
Would any of the past Zulkir of Evocation have been the most powerful personage of Thay if he had been a High Priest of Kossuth as well? Sort of a theurge. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2013 : 23:22:29
|
Red Wizards are an elite membership born to the red cloth and dedicated to studying only red magic - not unlike Netherese arcanists in their arrogant belief that their magic makes them superior to mere priests - they traditionally couldn‘t multiclass as well. Their opinion was probably well supported by how wimpy priests of Kossuth were, at least circa 2E sources. I know that Reds make use of healers when needed, but I imagine that if they happily disdain powerful Rashemi-reeking priestesses of Mystra then they‘ll probably treat other priests no better than they treat other skilled hirelings.
I suppose some Red Wizards might have dabbled in the multiclass-crazy 3E era, but I can‘t imagine any doing so and still being able to compete against their peers in the only magic their kind considers important, let alone advancing to the station of Zulkir. Remember also that they have access to many necro and fire spells which duplicate (and even improve upon) those acessible to priests. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 00:04:54
|
| in 3e era, the high priest was given respect even by zulikers, but not consider equal, but just almost. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 01:13:38
|
| I recall one High Priest of Kossuth being treated as something of a temporary ally of convenience, privy to what he needed to know, shown sufficient respect in public to preserve face, ultimately disposed of with the other pawns when no longer needed. Of course the Red Wizard he primarily interacted with happened to be Szass Tam, who can be expected to treat all his allies in such fashion. This single example might not necessarily be representative, but it does illustrate that such interactions are technically possible. The fact that these peer-to-peer arrangements are scarcely recorded seems to indicate (to me) that Red Wizards generally avoid them, or at least that they would prefer to not advertise their activities. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 16:03:53
|
| some red wizards favor religion (Zulkir Maligor favored Bhaal I believe and had a holy symbol tattoo, Zulkir Lauzoril is documented as being reverent of Kelemvor... kind of odd, but its documented). Some definitely don't. I can see some red wizards becoming Theurges (in fact, one of favorites in 2e was a dual-classed mage-priest, in 3e a theurge... named Daeronness Shenandra Tarsorek of Talos). However, they will NEVER rise to be a Zulkir after making that decision though (in the old Thay that is), because their comrades would always want a separation of church and state. After all, freedom in research from religious doctrine is why they held their war with Mulhorand. Also, the likelihood that a theurge will also enter the red wizard prestige class I find rare. Thus, in 3e, I made it that there were two strains of red wizards... those who are actual red wizard prestige class and another sub-class who are allowed to wear red called "bloodcowls" (based on an old term). The bloodcowls fall outside the school/zulkir relationship, and thus don't get as much political weight. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 16:20:05
|
| Oh, on the above, some of these "bloodcowls" were grouped under a similar type of relationship as the Zulkir one. They would have had "schools"/"guilds" for the more "prominent" alternate types of magical disciplines with an "Aulkir" to lead them. In 2e, since there were all these alternate specializations, I broke it into that. In 3e, I'd break it along the lines of archetypes. So, there would be a college of war magic (warmages, eldritch knights, spellswords, tome of battle studiers), a college of shadow magic, a college of sorcery, a college of dread necromancy (which directly reports to the college of necromancy), a college of beguilement (beguilers, arcane tricksters, spellthieves, etc...), and there would also be a much looked down upon college of compacts (warlocks, binders, anima mages, eldritch theurges, mystic theurges... anyone that retains power by serving another power... and this college would be very much at odds internally). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 16:48:15
|
I like the distinction - will probably use that - but not so much the terminology. I think I would prefer 'Red Wizard' being the generic term (the one everyone knows), but there should be a different term within the ranks so that those in the organization can identify who's who. Maybe 'Magi' or some-such (I am actually thinking something original, like how we have 'Zulkir'). Turgist, maybe?
'Blood Cowl' works for those lesser (looked down upon) schools.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 06 Sep 2013 17:05:10 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 22:04:25
|
I find it curious that Reds were indifferent to Azuth. To my mind Azuth is (was) the prodigal powerful uberwizard archetype; there are few others who‘ve mastered the art as profoundly, discounting of course liches and cheater-Chosen types and various legendary Netherese arcanists who predated Mystra. There are some other “pure“ arcane megatalents out there but old Azuth is (was) pretty good fare and, of course, the deity of wizards and spells.
Mystra might be too feminine and even subtly pursue a none-of-her-business agenda which is (was) often antithetical to Red Wizard methodology. But again, why didn‘t Azuth get any respect? |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 00:29:24
|
| it is not that they are indifferent, just uncaring. They want to empower themselves, not worship or honor something and be beholden to it. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 14:21:46
|
So here's the big question: If Kossuth is a primordial, how was he granting spells and receiving any sort of benefit from worship? How was it that he and the other three were able to still operate on Toril?
Did Kossuth and the other elemental lords become core in 4e? if they did, thats a major snafu, but if not, then its an easy fix.
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 14:45:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Red Wizards are an elite membership born to the red cloth and dedicated to studying only red magic - not unlike Netherese arcanists in their arrogant belief that their magic makes them superior to mere priests - they traditionally couldn‘t multiclass as well. Their opinion was probably well supported by how wimpy priests of Kossuth were, at least circa 2E sources. I know that Reds make use of healers when needed, but I imagine that if they happily disdain powerful Rashemi-reeking priestesses of Mystra then they‘ll probably treat other priests no better than they treat other skilled hirelings.
I suppose some Red Wizards might have dabbled in the multiclass-crazy 3E era, but I can‘t imagine any doing so and still being able to compete against their peers in the only magic their kind considers important, let alone advancing to the station of Zulkir. Remember also that they have access to many necro and fire spells which duplicate (and even improve upon) those acessible to priests.
Good point. I just remembered Szass Tam giving magical staves to the priests of Kossuth. Such staves were supposed to augment their fire magic, but, well, we know happened in the end. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 14:46:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
in 3e era, the high priest was given respect even by zulikers, but not consider equal, but just almost.
Technically, it was the same during the early 4E era, just right before Szass Tam took over. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 14:58:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I recall one High Priest of Kossuth being treated as something of a temporary ally of convenience, privy to what he needed to know, shown sufficient respect in public to preserve face, ultimately disposed of with the other pawns when no longer needed.
You’re likely referring to Iphegor Nath. Yes, he was invited in one (and probably more in the past) of the council of the zulkirs when they had to decide how best to rid their land of the undead that seemed to rise from nowhere and that attacked some villages. And yes, he was shown respect. When the zulkirs decided on a course of action, he disagreed. But Lallara pointedly reminded him of his position—she said something along this line, “We do appreciate your insight in this matter, but the leaders of this land have made their decision.” |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 15:08:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, they will NEVER rise to be a Zulkir after making that decision though (in the old Thay that is), because their comrades would always want a separation of church and state. After all, freedom in research from religious doctrine is why they held their war with Mulhorand.
An excellent point. I suppose becoming a priest is like a political suicide for them. True, some High Priests may get some semblance of respect from the zulkirs, but I doubt they’d ever manage to rise to be among the zulkirs’ ranks. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 15:23:54
|
Well after the utter obliteration of the red wizards in 4e outside of Necromancy , I can see clerics coming to power in 5e if they wish to push the undead out of the area and weaken him further.
I don't see necromancy fully going away if they do push him out, but under lock and key , and having no Zulikar. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 16:17:07
|
I would like to see a bit more of a liberal attitude amongst the Red Wizards, moving into 5e. Yes, the 'old guard' will still shave their heads and act very much the 'ebil wizard' stereotype, but those should only be the members of the conservative faction.
There should be at least one other faction, where females, non-Mulan, and even - GASP! - hairy Red Wizards can find acceptance. If the still exist in 5e (and by all accounts, they certainly should), then I think they should have learned quite a bit from their past mistakes, I still want them (mostly) evil, but I want them more cunning, and less overt. The Enclaves were a great start, but less 'Thaymart' and more a modern-day embassy vibe (which as everyone knows - but don't admit - are used for spying on everyone else). The folk who run these enclaves should be almost entirely of the liberal faction, and be friendly (outwardly) and look like normal people (so YES, people with hair, and females to boot). They shouldn't advertise their differences anymore... that didn't work out so well in the past. I want them more covert, and want some emphasis put on their on-going 'cold war' with the Zhentilar (who should also still exist, and also be just as 'behind the scenes' now; even more so in fact).
Back home, let the curmudgeons (conservatives) be in charge, where no-one can see them flaunting their obvious evil. As for Szass Tam and the 4e Thay - stick ALL of that up on Thaymount, where even the most powerful Red Wizards fear to tread.... 
Ack! 
I wet off-track, like usual... my point was supposed to be that the priesthood (of various religions) should be able to attain positions of power in 5e, especially within the liberal faction. In fact, the traditional Kossuthites might ally themselves with the conservatives (and vice-verse) just because of the 'new religions' rising around them (which would really be old religions that they use to squash - things like Myrkul, Cyric, Bane, etc). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2013 11:35:41 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2013 : 03:06:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I find it curious that Reds were indifferent to Azuth. To my mind Azuth is (was) the prodigal powerful uberwizard archetype; there are few others who‘ve mastered the art as profoundly, discounting of course liches and cheater-Chosen types and various legendary Netherese arcanists who predated Mystra. There are some other “pure“ arcane megatalents out there but old Azuth is (was) pretty good fare and, of course, the deity of wizards and spells.
Mystra might be too feminine and even subtly pursue a none-of-her-business agenda which is (was) often antithetical to Red Wizard methodology. But again, why didn‘t Azuth get any respect?
One thing to bear in mind. The red wizards movement started in Halruaa. Azuth's followers were probably amongst those that kicked out the original red wizards. That being said, Azuth to my knowledge wasn't as hated as Mystra. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2013 : 03:12:10
|
| red wizards were never sexist. They accepted both male and female members. As to the a new variation of Thay that accepts non-Mulans, I'd like to see something along these lines, with them accepting certain ex-patriot members of other power groups into their ranks and using them to form a new society. The racism wasn't always the big thing to me, it was the society/political structure that was unique. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2013 : 04:38:12
|
Red Wizard movement started in Halruaa???
I thought it was in Mulhorand? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2013 : 05:53:32
|
Dalor, I think sleyvas was talking homebrew. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2013 : 05:54:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Well after the utter obliteration of the red wizards in 4e outside of Necromancy , I can see clerics coming to power in 5e if they wish to push the undead out of the area and weaken him further.
Perhaps. But remember, in the various campaigns against Szass Tam’s army, most of the zulkirs’ victories were due to the wizards at their command (the priests of various sects were largely playing supporting roles).
quote:
I don't see necromancy fully going away if they do push him out, but under lock and key, and having no Zulikar.
I don’t either. The school is too important to lose. The Red Wizards are a pragmatic people. But they don’t need shackles nor do they have to vacate the zulkir of necromancy’s seat. They just have to ensure that the one in the position is not allied to Szass Tam at all. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Why did Kossuth have a strong worship in thay?
