| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 02:50:05
Okay so lets go through the check points
Any Temple can provide a way to power for those not mulan
Already a good selection of gods who are more then happy to slay undead
Plenty of gods that do this sort of thing without giving a damn about being evil or good.
So why does a fire god, get such a strong hold in such a unique place? Any Historical work on how it happened?
|
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 15:22:32
Oh, and believe that the Boneyard (Pholzubbalt) emptied around 1000 DR because Thay was founded and these necromancers found a country to their liking. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 15:21:24
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Great read, but you doubled the post, me thinks (the long post by The Hooded One is repeated).
So it appears Tan Chin wasn't the only Suel Lich in FR. 
The 'revisionist history' explanation is great as a RW excuse for conflicting lore.
As for the Red Wizards being related to Halruaa, its funny... I did something along those lines in my Misbegotten (homebrew) Realms. For the canon Realms, I've always pictured Netheril as a far more 'cosmopolitan' civilization then Imaskar, or others. In other words, I can see powerful Mages flocking to their banner from all over, including other worlds. This attitude probably persisted in Halruaa, although they took a much more insular stance on the international front. Basically, if you had the talent (and followed the rules), you'd be welcome there. That means some of their bloodlines could probably be traced back to Imaskar and the Mulan.
Now, as for Thay - they are 'purists' (racists), and quite the opposite of how I picture Netheril (socially). But we are assuming the current rules were always in-effect, and this may be a case of the placing the cart-before-the-horse. What if Thayd and the others accepted help for their rebellion from everywhere, and anyone (with power)? I can see some disenfranchised (banished?) Halruaan archmages joining their cause, just to get a slice of the pie (and place to do their nasty experiments away from watchful eyes). Then afterwards, these non-Mulan Mages may have been central in some of the in-fighting. Once all of that got shaken-out (after Thayd's death, most likely), the remaining Zulkirs decided that their new country would be 'better off' with pure-blood Mulan, and hence the current set of rules (current, as in the 1e-2e era.. we see a little more liberalness in the 3e era, and 4e just changes everything for Thay).
If Thay truly practices 'revisionism' (and it appears they do), then it would be a no-brainer to also assume they left-out the Halruaan help form their histories, or at the very least, left-out the fact that some of the known mages were Halruaan (originally). Add to that that some of them may have been of Mulan descent to begin with (many generations removed), and thats another viable explanation. I would go with a little bit of all three explanations.
sorry for the double paste. Didn't realize it till I'd posted.
Yeah, considering that the references indicate that they even tried at a point to hide who their Zulkirs were... and their general nature... I can see them keeping their populace blissfully unaware of the truth (since the printing press isn't around and books are relatively rare), and possibly hiring entertainers to make up romanticized/popularized stories about their leaders in order to gain their allegiance.
My homebrew is that Zhengyi came from Narfell (due to his ties to Orcus... I also play with the idea that he is a child of Orcus'...possibly a few generations removed). Jorgmacdon may also have come from Narfell or may have simply studied Narfellian lore to learn of Eltab. I believe Velsharoon to have come from Halruaa, and at one point I was detailing a host of about a half dozen powerful others that came with him.
I also believe that Thayd came from the Boneyard (Pholzubbalt), which is an underground hold filled with Mulhorandi necromancers mentioned in the 3e underdark supplement. I state that he came "from" there in that I believe Pholzubbalt to be a lost stronghold of the Theurgist Adepts. The private history that I've written up of Ythazz Buvaar is that he was a lich who was a minor living power during Thayd's Theurgist Adept rebellion in -1080 DR. Ythazz survived the Mulhorandi extermination of the theurgist adepts and became a lich. He got involved with Narfell, and during the naval attack on Mulhorand, he was entrapped within his phylactery.... until Velsharoon as an up and coming mage recovered Ythazz's phylactery and provided the means for the lich's release. Ythazz and Velsharoon (and other red wizards of Halruaa in this secretive "red wizard" group) then began tinkering with magics that the other Halruaans considered wrong to tamper with. They were then cast out, and Ythazz leads Velsharoon (who has been studying binding... a bit of lore that the Theurgist Adepts practiced) to a place involving Thayd and they discover a way to bind his vestige. Other "mages" are taught the art of the binder and they too learn to bind Thayd. Thus "Thayd" helped lead the rebellion through those individual who failed to successfully bind him properly and whom he was able exert control through.
On the Halruaans other than Velsharoon, the general ideas I had were the following. One such mage was studying temporal magic (I think of him as a brilliant mathematically/inept socially savant type character who finds social acceptance with the red wizards), and perhaps Velsharoon and company actually go back in time and recover some lost lore. Another is a Nimbrali-born spy mystic theurge who serves Leira and seeks to upend the government of Halruaa (she's also Velsharoon's lover). Another is the classic conjurer with ties to the lower planes. Another is a mage studying "blood magic". Another is a mage who has extended his life by becoming a ghostly type of undead (think it was a wizshade). Velsharoon in my version is a triple classed binder/dread necromancer/ un-specialized mage (with the appropriate ultimate magi and anima mage classes), and at the lower levels he was horribly underpowered compared to equally leveled individuals (it paid off later). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 13:36:32
Great read, but you doubled the post, me thinks (the long post by The Hooded One is repeated).
So it appears Tan Chin wasn't the only Suel Lich in FR.
The 'revisionist history' explanation is great as a RW excuse for conflicting lore.
As for the Red Wizards being related to Halruaa, its funny... I did something along those lines in my Misbegotten (homebrew) Realms. For the canon Realms, I've always pictured Netheril as a far more 'cosmopolitan' civilization then Imaskar, or others. In other words, I can see powerful Mages flocking to their banner from all over, including other worlds. This attitude probably persisted in Halruaa, although they took a much more insular stance on the international front. Basically, if you had the talent (and followed the rules), you'd be welcome there. That means some of their bloodlines could probably be traced back to Imaskar and the Mulan.
Now, as for Thay - they are 'purists' (racists), and quite the opposite of how I picture Netheril (socially). But we are assuming the current rules were always in-effect, and this may be a case of the placing the cart-before-the-horse. What if Thayd and the others accepted help for their rebellion from everywhere, and anyone (with power)? I can see some disenfranchised (banished?) Halruaan archmages joining their cause, just to get a slice of the pie (and place to do their nasty experiments away from watchful eyes). Then afterwards, these non-Mulan Mages may have been central in some of the in-fighting. Once all of that got shaken-out (after Thayd's death, most likely), the remaining Zulkirs decided that their new country would be 'better off' with pure-blood Mulan, and hence the current set of rules (current, as in the 1e-2e era.. we see a little more liberalness in the 3e era, and 4e just changes everything for Thay).
If Thay truly practices 'revisionism' (and it appears they do), then it would be a no-brainer to also assume they left-out the Halruaan help form their histories, or at the very least, left-out the fact that some of the known mages were Halruaan (originally). Add to that that some of them may have been of Mulan descent to begin with (many generations removed), and thats another viable explanation. I would go with a little bit of all three explanations. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 11:05:05
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Dalor, I think sleyvas was talking homebrew.
no, I’m talking actuality. The earliest documents on the realms, even before they released “Dreams of the Red Wizards” was a mailer that went out to people about Halruaa. This document hinted that the “red wizards” were cast out of Halruaa. Sounds odd, right?
Direct Quote from said document:
“These Halruan magic-users are of great and mysterious power. Thay’s current regime is said by some to have been founded by renegade Halruan mages.”
Odd, indeed. The lore that Ed shared (via THO) regarding the founding of the first Zulkirship of Thay does not hint at anything related to Halruaa at all. Well, AFAIR, that is.
Here's the problem with the lore provided... there hasn't been much (I'm betting that whatever lore you speak of is probably "Zulkir" based lore). How many names of "red wizards" amongst the founders of the rebellion (not original Zulkirs) have been provided? Maybe 2 (Jorgmacdon and Ythazz), with an ominous mention of Thayd as an "undead possessing sentience" being involved in the handout given at some convention, yet not in later lore. This handout also mentions possibly another "founder" Ilkrim Hlannadar who betrayed Thayd and was eaten by a dragon. Oddly too, Jorgmacdon is NOT mentioned amongst the list of original Zulkirs, even though dreams of the red wizards clearly calls him the first Zulkir of conjuration (said handout states that Balineth Skroun is the first Zulkir of Conjuration).
So, we have lore showing Thayd involved on one hand.... yet later, he's not even mentioned as a leader in forming the country. This list of original zulkirs doesn't mention Ythazz, but granted it also doesn't list the zulkir of divination. It sounds like there's some revisionist history done by the founders of Thay's Zulkirship.
Remember, the rebellion was in 922 DR, yet it took until 1030 for a governmental system based on Zulkirs under Ythazz Buvaar. So, Ythazz Buvaar "leads" the rebellion and it takes 108 years before they decide to elect a government in which they celebrate him for leading him by making him one of the chief Zulkirs? Sounds like there was probably some inner strife there to a major degree, no? Maybe because the vast majority of the rebels were Mulan, but the most powerful ones maybe weren't. Now, Ythazz Buvaar, they don't really point it out in the histories... but at that time ... he was a lich (because in the 1370's he's a demilich). So, are we even sure he was Mulan? The everyday people of Thay wouldn't have any idea how to confirm this from a bag of bones.
Now, how many ex-patriot red wizards are there out there that are established in canon lore as extremely powerful, yet their backstory isn't filled in.... we know of at least Zhengyi and Velsharoon. Its my homebrew thoughts that these two were two of the original founders that had to flee because of conflicts with those who later seized power. Given that Velsharoon at least is documented as a red wizard in Halruaa prior to the rebellion that he was one of the original red wizard founders from Halruaa.
So, in summation, a lot of lore out there, but its lacking cohesiveness. On the one hand, Thayd is made out to be the hero. On the other, Ythazz is made out to be the hero. In other references, Velsharoon is a red wizard before there is a Thay down in Halruaa (and there's multiple references to Halruaa as being the founding point of the red wizards). Perhaps the simplest solution is to accept them all as true an accept that the foundation of Thay wasn't just a simple uprising of Mulhorandi mages against their government..... that was just the rallying call. There were probably some outlander mages helping this uprising, and afterward, as the Mulan base became more powerful, they ousted them.
Below, I'm just reposting the information given out at that old Gen Con on the original Zulkirate (not necessarily the original red wizards, since said Zulkirs were 108 years later)
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The Hooded One
TIYARRA ZULKIRATE (= Of the History/Lore of the Zulkirs)
{Ed Greenwood, 1991}
The zulkirs began as Thayd’s inner circle of trusted “loyals” (in their hearts, most of them were anything but, but only one—Ilkrim Hlannadar, better known to Thayan folklore as “the Dragondevoured,” thanks to Thayd’s swift and ruthless reaction to his treachery—ever dared defy him openly). These “loyals” served the founder of Thay as his personal lieutenants, who led Thayan warbands, acted as his messengers, enforcers, and assassins, and helped keep Thayd the dominant wizard in the northern lands wrested from Mulhorand and Unther, and home to many independent mages of power, until the realm of Thay was consolidated.
Originally there were seven zulkirs, then six and five through battle losses. It was only after the death of Thayd that their numbers became set, and linked to specific “schools” of wizardry.
When Thayd fell, a bitter struggle for power followed, in which scores of ambitious wizards perished. Eventually the survivors, brought to reluctant obedience by threat of being trapped in the “Escalthar’s Everlasting Curse” spell that would shapechange them every few breaths, uncontrollably, for the rest of their lives, met with the wizard Escalthar (who had devised that spell, and cast it upon most of those survivors) atop Laltharr, a bare crag (later blasted to rubble in a spell-duel) in southwestern Thay.
This moot later became known as the Council of the Black Star (after the black star mage-sigil used by Escalthar). At the Council it was agreed that there would eight zulkirs, each of them a master of a school of wizardry: Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation. (Over the years, the zulkirs of Thay have been almost exclusively Thayan, and male humans, but no zulkirate has any formal requirements of residency, race, or gender.)
Outsiders have been told different wild tales about this or that zulkir, or how the ruling structure of Thay came about, but this is—so far as Mystra has confirmed—the truth.
Elminster and Khelben believe they have uncovered evidence that Escalthar—who mysteriously vanished, shortly after the Council, and has never been seen since (though there are many rumors and fear-whispered tales, down the years since, of his being seen by dying Red Wizards or watching crucial events in the unfolding governance of Thay) was either the god Azuth in disguise, or a pawn of Azuth at the time of the Council, but neither Azuth nor Mystra will confirm this. According to the Old Mage, the two deities, whenever asked about such matters, “merely smile.”
Only Szass Tam has held office (formally, “zulkirate,” though this term has been rarely used in the last two centuries) among the zulkirs in any consistent manner since 1300.
The “First Zulkirate” or initial eight zulkirs, appointed at the Council in the autumn of 1030 DR, were:
Hahlomede Teeos (Abjuration): known as “Blackwyrm” for his everpresent tattered black robes and cloaks, that rendered him immune to dragon attacks and made dragons actively avoid him, Teeos loved to act mysterious and to track down lost treasures, old magics, and deceptions, this last sort of hunting quickly making him very unpopular with many Thayans; he became the feared, tireless, and increasingly hated “investigator” of the First Zulkirate
Tlantros Tulhoond (Conjuration): an aloof, private man who feared attack at all times, and was therefore always ready for battle, with schemes and “hanging” spells galore ready as both defenses and deterrents, in addition to the monsters he could magically whisk from elsewhere to his side; a sophisticated lover of music, wines, subtle behaviour, and “refinement” who opposed Thay’s ever-greater reliance on slavery and the plundering of its resources at the expense of rejuvenating the land (he hated mines and quarries, preferring that Thay take what it needed from other lands by conquest or magical seizure and transportation)
Zarhandro Laeluth (Enchantment): a fat, jovial man who deceived his fellow zulkirs—and everyone else he had any contact with, in life—as much as possible; made frequent use of doubles to make it appear that he was in one place while he was busy in another; often bubbled with gleeful laughter as he tricked or slew or took cruel revenges; trusted by very few, and feared by many, especially tharchions (whom he was known to have personally slain scores of, over the unfolding years, many by torture); a hedonist who loved exotic foods and long, gluttonous feasts
Dlueae Sharshyndree (Evocation): the first female zulkir, Dlueae [pronounced “Dul-LOO-ay”] was a curvaceous woman with a melodious voice and alluring walk—who also had a coarse-featured and mannish face; she “had to shave like a man” and had acquired several disfiguring facial scars in her youthful adventuring career, and as a result customarily hid her face behind full head masks, which she sometimes augmented with a warrior’s battle-helm; a bold and calm battle-leader and a good tactician, she served Thay well in warfare and built ever-increasing influence over her fellow zulkirs, both by taking them as lovers and befriending them with aid and assistance for their personal projects, and by often stating and refining successful policies for Thay that she got her fellow zulkirs to support (and that they therefore took pride in); a mediator and peacemaker among her fellow zulkirs
Yaerind Mahl (Illusion): an inscrutable man of few words and fewer direct answers, stances, or clear statements, who customarily cloaked his true appearance with magical disguises, and preferred to spend much time roaming Thay appearing as various creatures, to spy and learn (and sometimes strike down treachery—which he widely defined as “anything he disliked”—where and when he found it); was the first zulkir to force many apprentices and dupes to pretend to be him, so they perished in attacks meant to slay him, so he could strike down those who’d thought they’d killed the Zulkir of Illusion; possessed a pair of golden lions (figurines of wondrous power) that hunted and slew at his command
Tarabbas Mroound (Necromancy): a tall, sardonic, cadaver-thin man who “disappeared into bones” at will, and apparently did so permanently, soon after being named zulkir, apparently of his own volition and not due to any attack launched by a rival or would-be successor; many Thayan night-rumors insist he lives on, still, watching over Thay and covertly bringing misfortune to those he dislikes, whilst aiding those he favors
Kulvur Naraelond (Transmutation): a sly, witty, smart-mouthed trickster of a man, handsome and acrobatic, who was trusted by few; most men loathed him, and most women found him irresistible; a hedonist who seemingly cared more for enjoyment of food, drink, lovemaking, and diversions—even elaborate pranks—more than anything else in life; made many foes very quickly, and did not last long in office (or life)
The only complete roster of the zulkirate known to outlanders (non-Thayans) after the First Zulkirate but before the 1350s DR, comes from an anonymous slave’s account, TWELVE WINTERS UNDER THE LASH, that was smuggled out of Thay in late 1300 DR. It gives a partial roster of the zulkirate, as follows:
Eldryn Lammaraster (Abjuration): an old, bitter, grim pessimist who saw treachery and would-be successors around ever corner, in every shadow, and behind every door—and prepared himself accordingly, between manyfold layers of defensive magics; his specialty was spells—many of which died with him—that had nasty counter-attacks built into them, triggered by their defensive activation and not by the caster having to trigger them
Balineth Skroun (Conjuration): a toad-faced, forbidding man who used intimidation and prepared “stage tricks” of magic to cow many a rival or defiant underling, Skroun hid well his deep love of Thay and his real loyalty to his fellow zulkirs; over time, became as trusted by his fellow zulkirs as any holder of a zulkirate has ever been, and with good reason; a true “team player” who looked ahead and acted for the betterment of Thay, beneath a surly public mask
Iyrith Telgahlagar (Enchantment): described as a darkly handsome, bearded man who was urbane, soft-spoken, and a master strategist and diplomat, the most dominant of the zulkirs through his skilled forging of alliances with his fellow zulkirs and among the tharchions and tharchionesses; ruthless in slaying rivals who act against him, often through spells delivered by bats that fly under his direction; once described by a Red Wizard as “Asmodeus among us,” and probably the closest of any individual to being the true ruler of Thay, at the time
Uldreth Korroth (Evocation): a grossly fat, lewd, aggressive man known for having layer upon layer of backup spells and schemes, and for being a jovial friend to all zulkirs, and a cruel, ruthless trickster to tharchions, tharchionesses, and all Thayans of lower station whom he had contact with; enjoyed frequent personal slayings of the “spectacular butchery” sort
Mahlind Yarrr (Transmutation): a short, dark-haired, slender man of very few words, who always dressed in crimson robes and was very efficient and a master of foreseeing or anticipating events, treacheries against him, and likely outcomes, and preparing for them; almost always on the “winning side” in policy disputes among the zulkirs, who made few fierce foes and enriched himself greatly with trade outside Thay involving manipulated agents and dupes, in sales of drugs and gems, and prostitution
So saith Ed. His mention of the 1350s DR of course refers to all the published Realmslore (FR6/DREAMS OF THE RED WIZARDS, RED MAGIC, and everything since) that has made the identities, activities, aims, and roster changes of the zulkirs of that era clear to all interested scribes.
So here you are . . . enjoy!
love to all,
THO
Hi again, all.
Thauramarth, Thayd survived as an undead sentience (perhaps unique; Ed hasn't said) that could possess living bodies (mammals of all sorts), but "burned them out" rapidly (a matter of two tendays at most). He clung to the company of his lieutenants . . . but eventually vanished, either destroyed by one of them or "lost" when a body burned out "under him" when he couldn't reach another to attack it...or for some other reason or cause, that PERHAPS has him lurking to this day, awaiting a chance to rise again...
So saith Ed, paraphrased by me.
love,
THO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The Hooded One
TIYARRA ZULKIRATE (= Of the History/Lore of the Zulkirs)
{Ed Greenwood, 1991}
The zulkirs began as Thayd’s inner circle of trusted “loyals” (in their hearts, most of them were anything but, but only one—Ilkrim Hlannadar, better known to Thayan folklore as “the Dragondevoured,” thanks to Thayd’s swift and ruthless reaction to his treachery—ever dared defy him openly). These “loyals” served the founder of Thay as his personal lieutenants, who led Thayan warbands, acted as his messengers, enforcers, and assassins, and helped keep Thayd the dominant wizard in the northern lands wrested from Mulhorand and Unther, and home to many independent mages of power, until the realm of Thay was consolidated.
Originally there were seven zulkirs, then six and five through battle losses. It was only after the death of Thayd that their numbers became set, and linked to specific “schools” of wizardry.
When Thayd fell, a bitter struggle for power followed, in which scores of ambitious wizards perished. Eventually the survivors, brought to reluctant obedience by threat of being trapped in the “Escalthar’s Everlasting Curse” spell that would shapechange them every few breaths, uncontrollably, for the rest of their lives, met with the wizard Escalthar (who had devised that spell, and cast it upon most of those survivors) atop Laltharr, a bare crag (later blasted to rubble in a spell-duel) in southwestern Thay.
This moot later became known as the Council of the Black Star (after the black star mage-sigil used by Escalthar). At the Council it was agreed that there would eight zulkirs, each of them a master of a school of wizardry: Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation. (Over the years, the zulkirs of Thay have been almost exclusively Thayan, and male humans, but no zulkirate has any formal requirements of residency, race, or gender.)
Outsiders have been told different wild tales about this or that zulkir, or how the ruling structure of Thay came about, but this is—so far as Mystra has confirmed—the truth.
Elminster and Khelben believe they have uncovered evidence that Escalthar—who mysteriously vanished, shortly after the Council, and has never been seen since (though there are many rumors and fear-whispered tales, down the years since, of his being seen by dying Red Wizards or watching crucial events in the unfolding governance of Thay) was either the god Azuth in disguise, or a pawn of Azuth at the time of the Council, but neither Azuth nor Mystra will confirm this. According to the Old Mage, the two deities, whenever asked about such matters, “merely smile.”
Only Szass Tam has held office (formally, “zulkirate,” though this term has been rarely used in the last two centuries) among the zulkirs in any consistent manner since 1300.
The “First Zulkirate” or initial eight zulkirs, appointed at the Council in the autumn of 1030 DR, were:
Hahlomede Teeos (Abjuration): known as “Blackwyrm” for his everpresent tattered black robes and cloaks, that rendered him immune to dragon attacks and made dragons actively avoid him, Teeos loved to act mysterious and to track down lost treasures, old magics, and deceptions, this last sort of hunting quickly making him very unpopular with many Thayans; he became the feared, tireless, and increasingly hated “investigator” of the First Zulkirate
Tlantros Tulhoond (Conjuration): an aloof, private man who feared attack at all times, and was therefore always ready for battle, with schemes and “hanging” spells galore ready as both defenses and deterrents, in addition to the monsters he could magically whisk from elsewhere to his side; a sophisticated lover of music, wines, subtle behaviour, and “refinement” who opposed Thay’s ever-greater reliance on slavery and the plundering of its resources at the expense of rejuvenating the land (he hated mines and quarries, preferring that Thay take what it needed from other lands by conquest or magical seizure and transportation)
Zarhandro Laeluth (Enchantment): a fat, jovial man who deceived his fellow zulkirs—and everyone else he had any contact with, in life—as much as possible; made frequent use of doubles to make it appear that he was in one place while he was busy in another; often bubbled with gleeful laughter as he tricked or slew or took cruel revenges; trusted by very few, and feared by many, especially tharchions (whom he was known to have personally slain scores of, over the unfolding years, many by torture); a hedonist who loved exotic foods and long, gluttonous feasts
Dlueae Sharshyndree (Evocation): the first female zulkir, Dlueae [pronounced “Dul-LOO-ay”] was a curvaceous woman with a melodious voice and alluring walk—who also had a coarse-featured and mannish face; she “had to shave like a man” and had acquired several disfiguring facial scars in her youthful adventuring career, and as a result customarily hid her face behind full head masks, which she sometimes augmented with a warrior’s battle-helm; a bold and calm battle-leader and a good tactician, she served Thay well in warfare and built ever-increasing influence over her fellow zulkirs, both by taking them as lovers and befriending them with aid and assistance for their personal projects, and by often stating and refining successful policies for Thay that she got her fellow zulkirs to support (and that they therefore took pride in); a mediator and peacemaker among her fellow zulkirs
Yaerind Mahl (Illusion): an inscrutable man of few words and fewer direct answers, stances, or clear statements, who customarily cloaked his true appearance with magical disguises, and preferred to spend much time roaming Thay appearing as various creatures, to spy and learn (and sometimes strike down treachery—which he widely defined as “anything he disliked”—where and when he found it); was the first zulkir to force many apprentices and dupes to pretend to be him, so they perished in attacks meant to slay him, so he could strike down those who’d thought they’d killed the Zulkir of Illusion; possessed a pair of golden lions (figurines of wondrous power) that hunted and slew at his command
Tarabbas Mroound (Necromancy): a tall, sardonic, cadaver-thin man who “disappeared into bones” at will, and apparently did so permanently, soon after being named zulkir, apparently of his own volition and not due to any attack launched by a rival or would-be successor; many Thayan night-rumors insist he lives on, still, watching over Thay and covertly bringing misfortune to those he dislikes, whilst aiding those he favors
Kulvur Naraelond (Transmutation): a sly, witty, smart-mouthed trickster of a man, handsome and acrobatic, who was trusted by few; most men loathed him, and most women found him irresistible; a hedonist who seemingly cared more for enjoyment of food, drink, lovemaking, and diversions—even elaborate pranks—more than anything else in life; made many foes very quickly, and did not last long in office (or life)
The only complete roster of the zulkirate known to outlanders (non-Thayans) after the First Zulkirate but before the 1350s DR, comes from an anonymous slave’s account, TWELVE WINTERS UNDER THE LASH, that was smuggled out of Thay in late 1300 DR. It gives a partial roster of the zulkirate, as follows:
Eldryn Lammaraster (Abjuration): an old, bitter, grim pessimist who saw treachery and would-be successors around ever corner, in every shadow, and behind every door—and prepared himself accordingly, between manyfold layers of defensive magics; his specialty was spells—many of which died with him—that had nasty counter-attacks built into them, triggered by their defensive activation and not by the caster having to trigger them
Balineth Skroun (Conjuration): a toad-faced, forbidding man who used intimidation and prepared “stage tricks” of magic to cow many a rival or defiant underling, Skroun hid well his deep love of Thay and his real loyalty to his fellow zulkirs; over time, became as trusted by his fellow zulkirs as any holder of a zulkirate has ever been, and with good reason; a true “team player” who looked ahead and acted for the betterment of Thay, beneath a surly public mask
Iyrith Telgahlagar (Enchantment): described as a darkly handsome, bearded man who was urbane, soft-spoken, and a master strategist and diplomat, the most dominant of the zulkirs through his skilled forging of alliances with his fellow zulkirs and among the tharchions and tharchionesses; ruthless in slaying rivals who act against him, often through spells delivered by bats that fly under his direction; once described by a Red Wizard as “Asmodeus among us,” and probably the closest of any individual to being the true ruler of Thay, at the time
Uldreth Korroth (Evocation): a grossly fat, lewd, aggressive man known for having layer upon layer of backup spells and schemes, and for being a jovial friend to all zulkirs, and a cruel, ruthless trickster to tharchions, tharchionesses, and all Thayans of lower station whom he had contact with; enjoyed frequent personal slayings of the “spectacular butchery” sort
Mahlind Yarrr (Transmutation): a short, dark-haired, slender man of very few words, who always dressed in crimson robes and was very efficient and a master of foreseeing or anticipating events, treacheries against him, and likely outcomes, and preparing for them; almost always on the “winning side” in policy disputes among the zulkirs, who made few fierce foes and enriched himself greatly with trade outside Thay involving manipulated agents and dupes, in sales of drugs and gems, and prostitution
So saith Ed. His mention of the 1350s DR of course refers to all the published Realmslore (FR6/DREAMS OF THE RED WIZARDS, RED MAGIC, and everything since) that has made the identities, activities, aims, and roster changes of the zulkirs of that era clear to all interested scribes.
So here you are . . . enjoy!
love to all,
THO
Hi again, all.
Thauramarth, Thayd survived as an undead sentience (perhaps unique; Ed hasn't said) that could possess living bodies (mammals of all sorts), but "burned them out" rapidly (a matter of two tendays at most). He clung to the company of his lieutenants . . . but eventually vanished, either destroyed by one of them or "lost" when a body burned out "under him" when he couldn't reach another to attack it...or for some other reason or cause, that PERHAPS has him lurking to this day, awaiting a chance to rise again...
So saith Ed, paraphrased by me.
love,
THO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 15:21:57
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Dalor, I think sleyvas was talking homebrew.
no, I’m talking actuality. The earliest documents on the realms, even before they released “Dreams of the Red Wizards” was a mailer that went out to people about Halruaa. This document hinted that the “red wizards” were cast out of Halruaa. Sounds odd, right?
Direct Quote from said document:
“These Halruan magic-users are of great and mysterious power. Thay’s current regime is said by some to have been founded by renegade Halruan mages.”
Odd, indeed. The lore that Ed shared (via THO) regarding the founding of the first Zulkirship of Thay does not hint at anything related to Halruaa at all. Well, AFAIR, that is. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 09 Sep 2013 : 17:16:35
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In the first couple of Melniboné novels, he refers to magic as 'negromancy'.
Its amazing how un-PC the world used to be.
Well, actually negromancy, or nigromancy, means literally "black magic". If it is named for non-PC reasons or not, I don't know, after all one can also consider "dark" magic as something bad because we are afraid of the dark and the dangers it can bring. Anyway, even if there is side damage, the term brings it, but maybe Moorcock was only using a specific term for the kind of magic, considering all magic to be evil (black or dark arts). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Sep 2013 : 14:55:21
In the first couple of Melniboné novels, he refers to magic as 'negromancy'.
Its amazing how un-PC the world used to be.
Not knocking his works - I am a big fan of Moorcock, but his early stuff is definitely dated.
Anyhow, I was always able to see the connection between the FR elemental lords and the Moorcockian ones - I just assume these are the same beings that go by different names in different spheres (and the further assumption being is that unlike deities, primordials are ALL multi-spheric). In fact, they may even sponsor a mortal to ascendency just to receive the benefits of worship (so Kossuth himself may just be a mortal from some ancient civilization that became an exarch and moved on from there). Thus, in every sphere they would have a local deity acting on their behalf. After all, a being composed entirely of energy wouldn't actually have a 'true form', and would probably need some sort of ex-mortal underling just to understand mortals (and vice-versa), being so alien and all.
So the Moorcock names could be the actual primordial, or just another local name (although given how the multiverse is so nicely represented in his works, I would imagine he is using the true names of these beings). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Sep 2013 : 14:42:57
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Somewhat related to this thread, a gaming blog recently had a post about the elemental gods of FR:
http://dreamsofmythicfantasy.blogspot.com/2013/09/in-which-michael-moorcock-sneaks-into.html
Interesting, so we have actual lore stating that the elemental lords were originally the elemental lords from Moorcock's stories and they were renamed, with even a typo in the 1st edition campaign setting. I've never gotten into Moorcock's works far, because the early works are just so bad (granted they were probably amazing for their time). I really need to skip ahead and find out where it goes. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Sep 2013 : 14:33:58
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Dalor, I think sleyvas was talking homebrew.
no, I'm talking actuality. The earliest documents on the realms, even before they released "Dreams of the Red Wizards" was a mailer that went out to people about Halruaa. This document hinted that the "red wizards" were cast out of Halruaa. Sounds odd, right?
Direct Quote from said document:
"These Halruan magic-users are of great and mysterious power. Thay#146;s current regime is said by some to have been founded by renegade Halruan mages."
There's several other easter eggs like this in the lore, but the next most interesting one I know of is this one. Note the year is prior to the foundation of Thay and the battle of Thazalhar.
From The Grand History of the Realms
"827 DR Year of the Sacrificed Fortune
The wizard Omm Hlandrar of Halruaa engages a Red Wizard named
Velsharoon in a spectacular magical battle in the skies over the Shaar. The contest ends in a draw."
Its because of this kind of lore that I've often stated that Velsharoon was one of the primary founding red wizards and that he is of Halruaan origin not Mulan (despite people believing he was no one of much interest before becoming a deity..... he was just lying low/researching in the mid/late 1350's while figuring out how to become a god... something that probably preoccupied him for a bit). My belief is that the creation of the Zulkirship was just a centerpoint for a racial fight between the much more numerous Mulans versus the Halruaan outsiders who helped found their movement. I've often believed that it was also during this time that Zhengyi left the red wizards as well and that Zhengyi and Velsharoon were tenuous allies. |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 08 Sep 2013 : 06:11:26
Somewhat related to this thread, a gaming blog recently had a post about the elemental gods of FR:
http://dreamsofmythicfantasy.blogspot.com/2013/09/in-which-michael-moorcock-sneaks-into.html |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Sep 2013 : 06:03:56
Hmm, I distincttly recall Red Wizards being a misogynistic bunch, largely due to their endless difficulties with those Rashemi witches. At least as of the AD&D era, I admit things may have been changed in 3E. I might also be projecting the sexism of just a few Red Wizard NPCs onto the whole lot.
I don‘t think there‘s any question about Red Wizards being racist. They tolerate mulans of foreign birth, and rashemi-born too if they must; they basically assume all other breeds of human (except perhaps foreign magic users) are inferior; and they‘re automatically inclined to put every non-human into slave shackles. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Sep 2013 : 05:54:03
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Well after the utter obliteration of the red wizards in 4e outside of Necromancy , I can see clerics coming to power in 5e if they wish to push the undead out of the area and weaken him further.
Perhaps. But remember, in the various campaigns against Szass Tam’s army, most of the zulkirs’ victories were due to the wizards at their command (the priests of various sects were largely playing supporting roles).
quote:
I don't see necromancy fully going away if they do push him out, but under lock and key, and having no Zulikar.
I don’t either. The school is too important to lose. The Red Wizards are a pragmatic people. But they don’t need shackles nor do they have to vacate the zulkir of necromancy’s seat. They just have to ensure that the one in the position is not allied to Szass Tam at all. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Sep 2013 : 05:53:32
Dalor, I think sleyvas was talking homebrew. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 08 Sep 2013 : 04:38:12
Red Wizard movement started in Halruaa???
I thought it was in Mulhorand? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Sep 2013 : 03:12:10
red wizards were never sexist. They accepted both male and female members. As to the a new variation of Thay that accepts non-Mulans, I'd like to see something along these lines, with them accepting certain ex-patriot members of other power groups into their ranks and using them to form a new society. The racism wasn't always the big thing to me, it was the society/political structure that was unique. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Sep 2013 : 03:06:53
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I find it curious that Reds were indifferent to Azuth. To my mind Azuth is (was) the prodigal powerful uberwizard archetype; there are few others who‘ve mastered the art as profoundly, discounting of course liches and cheater-Chosen types and various legendary Netherese arcanists who predated Mystra. There are some other “pure“ arcane megatalents out there but old Azuth is (was) pretty good fare and, of course, the deity of wizards and spells.
Mystra might be too feminine and even subtly pursue a none-of-her-business agenda which is (was) often antithetical to Red Wizard methodology. But again, why didn‘t Azuth get any respect?
One thing to bear in mind. The red wizards movement started in Halruaa. Azuth's followers were probably amongst those that kicked out the original red wizards. That being said, Azuth to my knowledge wasn't as hated as Mystra. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 16:17:07
I would like to see a bit more of a liberal attitude amongst the Red Wizards, moving into 5e. Yes, the 'old guard' will still shave their heads and act very much the 'ebil wizard' stereotype, but those should only be the members of the conservative faction.
There should be at least one other faction, where females, non-Mulan, and even - GASP! - hairy Red Wizards can find acceptance. If the still exist in 5e (and by all accounts, they certainly should), then I think they should have learned quite a bit from their past mistakes, I still want them (mostly) evil, but I want them more cunning, and less overt. The Enclaves were a great start, but less 'Thaymart' and more a modern-day embassy vibe (which as everyone knows - but don't admit - are used for spying on everyone else). The folk who run these enclaves should be almost entirely of the liberal faction, and be friendly (outwardly) and look like normal people (so YES, people with hair, and females to boot). They shouldn't advertise their differences anymore... that didn't work out so well in the past. I want them more covert, and want some emphasis put on their on-going 'cold war' with the Zhentilar (who should also still exist, and also be just as 'behind the scenes' now; even more so in fact).
Back home, let the curmudgeons (conservatives) be in charge, where no-one can see them flaunting their obvious evil. As for Szass Tam and the 4e Thay - stick ALL of that up on Thaymount, where even the most powerful Red Wizards fear to tread....
Ack! 
I wet off-track, like usual... my point was supposed to be that the priesthood (of various religions) should be able to attain positions of power in 5e, especially within the liberal faction. In fact, the traditional Kossuthites might ally themselves with the conservatives (and vice-verse) just because of the 'new religions' rising around them (which would really be old religions that they use to squash - things like Myrkul, Cyric, Bane, etc). |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 15:23:54
Well after the utter obliteration of the red wizards in 4e outside of Necromancy , I can see clerics coming to power in 5e if they wish to push the undead out of the area and weaken him further.
I don't see necromancy fully going away if they do push him out, but under lock and key , and having no Zulikar. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 15:08:06
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, they will NEVER rise to be a Zulkir after making that decision though (in the old Thay that is), because their comrades would always want a separation of church and state. After all, freedom in research from religious doctrine is why they held their war with Mulhorand.
An excellent point. I suppose becoming a priest is like a political suicide for them. True, some High Priests may get some semblance of respect from the zulkirs, but I doubt they’d ever manage to rise to be among the zulkirs’ ranks. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 14:58:17
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I recall one High Priest of Kossuth being treated as something of a temporary ally of convenience, privy to what he needed to know, shown sufficient respect in public to preserve face, ultimately disposed of with the other pawns when no longer needed.
You’re likely referring to Iphegor Nath. Yes, he was invited in one (and probably more in the past) of the council of the zulkirs when they had to decide how best to rid their land of the undead that seemed to rise from nowhere and that attacked some villages. And yes, he was shown respect. When the zulkirs decided on a course of action, he disagreed. But Lallara pointedly reminded him of his position—she said something along this line, “We do appreciate your insight in this matter, but the leaders of this land have made their decision.” |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 14:46:59
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
in 3e era, the high priest was given respect even by zulikers, but not consider equal, but just almost.
Technically, it was the same during the early 4E era, just right before Szass Tam took over. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 14:45:13
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Red Wizards are an elite membership born to the red cloth and dedicated to studying only red magic - not unlike Netherese arcanists in their arrogant belief that their magic makes them superior to mere priests - they traditionally couldn‘t multiclass as well. Their opinion was probably well supported by how wimpy priests of Kossuth were, at least circa 2E sources. I know that Reds make use of healers when needed, but I imagine that if they happily disdain powerful Rashemi-reeking priestesses of Mystra then they‘ll probably treat other priests no better than they treat other skilled hirelings.
I suppose some Red Wizards might have dabbled in the multiclass-crazy 3E era, but I can‘t imagine any doing so and still being able to compete against their peers in the only magic their kind considers important, let alone advancing to the station of Zulkir. Remember also that they have access to many necro and fire spells which duplicate (and even improve upon) those acessible to priests.
Good point. I just remembered Szass Tam giving magical staves to the priests of Kossuth. Such staves were supposed to augment their fire magic, but, well, we know happened in the end. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 14:21:46
So here's the big question: If Kossuth is a primordial, how was he granting spells and receiving any sort of benefit from worship? How was it that he and the other three were able to still operate on Toril?
Did Kossuth and the other elemental lords become core in 4e? if they did, thats a major snafu, but if not, then its an easy fix.
|
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 00:29:24
it is not that they are indifferent, just uncaring. They want to empower themselves, not worship or honor something and be beholden to it. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 22:04:25
I find it curious that Reds were indifferent to Azuth. To my mind Azuth is (was) the prodigal powerful uberwizard archetype; there are few others who‘ve mastered the art as profoundly, discounting of course liches and cheater-Chosen types and various legendary Netherese arcanists who predated Mystra. There are some other “pure“ arcane megatalents out there but old Azuth is (was) pretty good fare and, of course, the deity of wizards and spells.
Mystra might be too feminine and even subtly pursue a none-of-her-business agenda which is (was) often antithetical to Red Wizard methodology. But again, why didn‘t Azuth get any respect? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 16:48:15
I like the distinction - will probably use that - but not so much the terminology. I think I would prefer 'Red Wizard' being the generic term (the one everyone knows), but there should be a different term within the ranks so that those in the organization can identify who's who. Maybe 'Magi' or some-such (I am actually thinking something original, like how we have 'Zulkir'). Turgist, maybe?
'Blood Cowl' works for those lesser (looked down upon) schools.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 16:20:05
Oh, on the above, some of these "bloodcowls" were grouped under a similar type of relationship as the Zulkir one. They would have had "schools"/"guilds" for the more "prominent" alternate types of magical disciplines with an "Aulkir" to lead them. In 2e, since there were all these alternate specializations, I broke it into that. In 3e, I'd break it along the lines of archetypes. So, there would be a college of war magic (warmages, eldritch knights, spellswords, tome of battle studiers), a college of shadow magic, a college of sorcery, a college of dread necromancy (which directly reports to the college of necromancy), a college of beguilement (beguilers, arcane tricksters, spellthieves, etc...), and there would also be a much looked down upon college of compacts (warlocks, binders, anima mages, eldritch theurges, mystic theurges... anyone that retains power by serving another power... and this college would be very much at odds internally). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 16:03:53
some red wizards favor religion (Zulkir Maligor favored Bhaal I believe and had a holy symbol tattoo, Zulkir Lauzoril is documented as being reverent of Kelemvor... kind of odd, but its documented). Some definitely don't. I can see some red wizards becoming Theurges (in fact, one of favorites in 2e was a dual-classed mage-priest, in 3e a theurge... named Daeronness Shenandra Tarsorek of Talos). However, they will NEVER rise to be a Zulkir after making that decision though (in the old Thay that is), because their comrades would always want a separation of church and state. After all, freedom in research from religious doctrine is why they held their war with Mulhorand. Also, the likelihood that a theurge will also enter the red wizard prestige class I find rare. Thus, in 3e, I made it that there were two strains of red wizards... those who are actual red wizard prestige class and another sub-class who are allowed to wear red called "bloodcowls" (based on an old term). The bloodcowls fall outside the school/zulkir relationship, and thus don't get as much political weight. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 01:13:38
I recall one High Priest of Kossuth being treated as something of a temporary ally of convenience, privy to what he needed to know, shown sufficient respect in public to preserve face, ultimately disposed of with the other pawns when no longer needed. Of course the Red Wizard he primarily interacted with happened to be Szass Tam, who can be expected to treat all his allies in such fashion. This single example might not necessarily be representative, but it does illustrate that such interactions are technically possible. The fact that these peer-to-peer arrangements are scarcely recorded seems to indicate (to me) that Red Wizards generally avoid them, or at least that they would prefer to not advertise their activities. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 00:04:54
in 3e era, the high priest was given respect even by zulikers, but not consider equal, but just almost. |
|
|
