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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 19:17:55
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Just saw this. Can't make comments on wizard's sites because my id's not working and their password reset process must be broken or something (and new ID creation just sits there too). Anyway, figured I'd see how others view this
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4dreye/20130703
Personally, they go out of their way to make red wizards look ghoulishly pale. For the necromancers, that may be the case... but the rest I see as more of an Asian pale... especially with a name like Mulan. Going beyond that, I see the red wizards as more of a lean elitist society. Yes, they have slaves. But, you have to keep yourself fit enough that your neighboring red wizards don't just decide you are unfit to serve as a ruler of the country. The idea of wearing bulky clothing would seem to fit Old Imaskar and Netheril. The Thayans have seen the histories of these cultures rise and fall. They wouldn't want to be just a mirror of old cultures.
So, my personal take is... keep them bald... some may defy this tradition (possibly more amongst females, and even that they may stick to shaved top and back and have a "topknot that become a braid"). Keep their tattoos and perhaps their tattoos have begun to take on magical aspects (i.e. a winking eye, a plume of flame that explodes circling the head when angry, running blood, shimmering runes or words that come and go, etc...).
On their clothes... I like to reference what was said of George Washington (as I've often seen the red wizard's as the evil version of our patriotic movement). He wore the best of all things, but not necessarily the most fashionable. Some of the red wizards will wear flashy outfits, with maybe serpents or flame or skulls embroidered into the material. It might be a mixture of reds, with gold/yellow/black/white as highlights. But mainly, it will be meant for everyday use, and it will be a lightweight material like silk that is expensive but strong. It won't make them uncustomarily hot, as sweating is abhorrent to their culture, much like excessive body hair.
Of all the ones that are pictured, the ones that the article writer says "are too Egyptian" are the ones that resonate with me the most as very interesting depictions. Everything else looks kind of "muahahahaha I'm an evil wizard", and doesn't portray the culture.
Finally, I noted at the top what appears to be a dwarf in red robes. Keep them human, though not necessarily all Mulan in 5e. While they may RARELY train particularly intelligent examples of monsters that aren't normally intelligent as apprentices, they would not allow such to become "red wizards" and gain political power. Training of races that already have a significant magical tradition should be simply out (i.e. training a minotaur warrior-wizard helps to solidify control over a faction of minotaurs, but training an elf or dwarf wizard, not so much).
Now, one of the things that I've also thought is that we may find multiple different red wizard factions in 5E. For instance, one nasty, evil group might recapture Thay ... while another less overtly evil group settle in another part of the realms like the Shaar... while another group might even return with Maztica having been separated by 100 years.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 20:38:58
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
... but the rest I see as more of an Asian pale... especially with a name like Mulan.
They are usually of Mulan ancestry, but not Mulan the female chinese warrior, but as the race from Mulhorand, more egyptian-like. In more than one source, I saw comments about Thay being kind of inspired in Conan's Stygia, with its clear egyptian influence. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 21:43:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
... but the rest I see as more of an Asian pale... especially with a name like Mulan.
They are usually of Mulan ancestry, but not Mulan the female chinese warrior, but as the race from Mulhorand, more egyptian-like. In more than one source, I saw comments about Thay being kind of inspired in Conan's Stygia, with its clear egyptian influence.
Yeah, the reason I said Asian pale was because when people say Egyptian, pale isn't the color that comes to mind. I started to say Irish or Icelandic, but that draws the wrong imagery to mind. Other than the upturned eyes, I picture the Mulans to be more Asian looking than the nut brown of Egyptians. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 22:13:31
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I was about to post a link to that here too. I actually made a comment on the wizards site about them being too light skinned to be Mulan. Sigh. It's not the first time we ended up with a light-skinned Red Wizard.
At first glance, I imagined it as a Deep Imaskari Red Wizard, as they have a tendency toward that skin tone. However, upon reflection I decided that it's probably best just to consider it as a non-Mulan Red Wizard from one of the Enclaves.
My guess is that he went with a more pale color as the Red Wizard is supposed to be a necromancer. However, it is a problematic choice because of returned Imaskar being so close.
As for the clothing, I don't mind the impracticality of it, however I partly agree with you Sleyvas. I envision the Red Wizards wearing practical stuff the majority of the time. However, I do envision the Red Wizards having hugely impractical and gaudy robes that display their wealth and status as compared to the other Red Wizards during ceremonial events and formal meetings. It'd be done to impress people, especially outside of Thay. They'd probably be carried around on litters by slaves while wearing such robes.
However, for day-to-day stuff? It wouldn't be worth it. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 00:33:00
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First let me say that the artwork in that piece is VERY good. I especially like the 'polish' of the final rendition and that is what I expect of Realms artwork (contrast the overall look with the cover art from Serpent Kingdoms-the overall look of which I found rather bad).
Now, the first picture showing them with hair. I'm okay with it IF we get a new generation attempting to throw off the 'old' look (as in baldness was SOOOO 5 minutes ago). This is especially true if we have a faction of Red Wizards that show up elsewhere in the world so as to keep the original concept alive while offering something new as well. Just makes sense to me that some of their descendants would say "Look here! We had a great nation at one time and what did it get us? It got our world and way of life destroyed! Time for a new way of doing things!"
As to the next one with the Egyptian/Mulhorandi influence. Although the pic is a little bland it still captures some of the feel of Thay although I would think they would have lost the more overt Mulhorandi appearance over time. Both as a natural progression and as a concerted attempt not to look like their former masters.
I think the final rendition should be toned down a bit...but not much. It does seem a bit impractical although if the outfit is magical then practicality becomes a non-issue. Outfits like that one, IMO, would be for impressing others or 'full battle garb' when expecting trouble (again assuming it is magical).
Those comments regard the clothing only. The pale skin looks too much like Imaskari so give them some color please. Even a necromancer would tend to be darker toned than that methinks. Unless all of Thay tends to stay out of the sun that is. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 00:52:05
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I agree with sleyvas, noting that I've always considered Thay to be a wizard version of real world Sparta (i.e. a ruling small number elite controlling a large body of "inferior" racial servitors). They should be darker skinned and dark-haired, they shouldn't all be wearing traditional wizards robes, there should be no dwarves in their ranks and the males should sport a bit more facial hair (Van Dykes and Szass mustaches in the main). Of course, I'm going back to the earlier Edition, quasi-stereotypical view of the Thay, but it is what it is. Change for the sake of change is the super big "no no" for the 5E Realms IMO. Designers take note, for what it's worth.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 00:55:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I was about to post a link to that here too. I actually made a comment on the wizards site about them being too light skinned to be Mulan. Sigh. It's not the first time we ended up with a light-skinned Red Wizard.
At first glance, I imagined it as a Deep Imaskari Red Wizard, as they have a tendency toward that skin tone. However, upon reflection I decided that it's probably best just to consider it as a non-Mulan Red Wizard from one of the Enclaves.
My guess is that he went with a more pale color as the Red Wizard is supposed to be a necromancer. However, it is a problematic choice because of returned Imaskar being so close.
As for the clothing, I don't mind the impracticality of it, however I partly agree with you Sleyvas. I envision the Red Wizards wearing practical stuff the majority of the time. However, I do envision the Red Wizards having hugely impractical and gaudy robes that display their wealth and status as compared to the other Red Wizards during ceremonial events and formal meetings. It'd be done to impress people, especially outside of Thay. They'd probably be carried around on litters by slaves while wearing such robes.
However, for day-to-day stuff? It wouldn't be worth it.
Yeah, I could buy that... that they have really impressive "court robes" for special ceremonies. It wouldn't be the norm though. Nor would I see them using such robes unless they were in an area where they absolutely felt safe OR they had some magical means to both disperse said robe and use it (perhaps it becomes a "cloth golem" to absorb a few hits). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 01:14:26
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By the way, the imagery of tattoos reminded me of an old NPC "Daeronness Shenandra Tarsorek of Talos", who in 3E would be a mystic theurge (an unusual thing for Thay given its reticence to serve gods, but Shenandra was a fervent follower of Talos, lord of Wild and Destructive Magic). She had a red, yellow, and black lightning bolt tattoo that would flash and thunder when she was angry. It was a minor effect, but when she'd glare at a servant and thunder would sound.... it kept them hopping. This is the kind of thing that makes Thay different.
Hmmm, and I was just looking over the relic and rituals blood witch prestige class. This would so fit her personality. I can see her bringing along servants wherever she goes to willingly offer their blood to enhance her magic (willingly as in, "would you rather I take a little blood or a lot?"). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 01:21:56
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| -_-. this is not the information on the sundering they promised us. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 02:21:17
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Am I the only one who thinks the Von Caberte sketch is really WoW-ish? Not that there's anything really wrong with that... my objection to D&D illustrations reminding me of WoW is based on wanting D&D to continue succeeding on its own merits rather than borrowing a look and feel from an upstart like WoW.  In the past they've been very different games, and I'd like to see them be very different in the future.
While I completely agree with Jon here: "My personal preference is to be influenced by cultures that we are familiar with, rather than just lifting them directly" ...I kinda prefer to see the lower-level Red Wizards that most PCs will be interacting with (perhaps represented by the sketches which Jon dismissed at the beginning of the page) rather than Zulkirs, who are IMO the only ones who can survive wearing something as impractical as that Tier X epic priest raiment.
In my mind, everyone beneath the Zulkirs has to be capable of defending themselves 24/7.
Setting that aside, I do like the quality of the Von Caberte sketch. More great stuff on his website too. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 03:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, I could buy that... that they have really impressive "court robes" for special ceremonies. It wouldn't be the norm though. Nor would I see them using such robes unless they were in an area where they absolutely felt safe OR they had some magical means to both disperse said robe and use it (perhaps it becomes a "cloth golem" to absorb a few hits).
Before I answer your main point, I want to go back to something you mentioned in your first post. You mentioned that sweating in Thayan culture is abhorrent, and I tend to agree.
However, I just realized that Red Wizards likely have some type of VERY light shift under their robes - think of it kinda like underwear. It would have to weigh under one pound, because if they had such a mundane item under the robes they could use Prestidigitation on it to keep cool. This would be essential if they're going to wear some bulky robes like those portrayed.
Addressing your main point that I quoted above which was in response to me... I tend to agree with you here.
A Red Wizard just isn't going to wear one of those robes if he knows he's going to be in legitimate danger. Even in circumstances in which he feels safe, I have little doubt that there are magical clasps in that robe that when a certain word is uttered will unlock causing the robe to fall open - allowing the Red Wizard to (hopefully) step out of it safely. Most of them likely cast spells on them which activate when a certain word is uttered, causing them to disintegrate. Others likely weave illusions around their normal robes to give off the appearance, while others might cast a transmutation spell on their normal robes (allowing them utter a word to undo the transmutation).
In the end, I'm sure the Red Wizards have quite a number of ways of getting rid of those bulky robes if they had too in whatever situation they find themselves in.
However, I could see Red Wizards wearing them even when meeting their rivals. If they show up in practical dress, it shows that they are afraid. However, if they show up in something outrageous and impractical it sends the complete opposite message. It shows confidence.
Of course, if things were about to get real, and the Red Wizard was in serious danger, once again - one word - and those robes would be gone. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 00:52:53
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I have a question and a little bit of input at the same time. The Mulan are supposed to be ported in from another world, but does published lore ever specify where?
I always imagined them being of Earth's early Egyptian & Asian/Indian peoples, so you'd have a variety of skin tones, but with the dominant race being Egyptian. With the Egyptian dominance, the similarity in pantheon to Earth's Egypt makes sense, but that was just my few readings on Thay & my imagination running wild.
The hair I easily see as possible. Bald may be the "more traditional" style, but I can see some starting a topknot, similar to religion of our world arguing over tonsure.
I'm not too worried about the robes as I see them. If you grow up wearing such things, maneuverability is something I think you'd get used to. What little restriction remains, minor magics could help. Although, I do agree that what is illustrated in the link seems far more ceremonial in style. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 01:09:18
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Yeah, the Mulan blood - and by extension the Red Wizards - I always pictured much like the Black Wizards of Stygia/Conan fame, and as some of you may recall, James Earl Jones played Thulsa Doom in the first movie (although I think that was miscast as well, but still, they are supposed to be dark-skinned).
In Robert Howard's universe, Stygia was a pre-curser of Egypt. In D&D/FR, the Mulan people were originally from Egypt. We know how dark the Egyptian people are, regardless. One of the most important pieces of Thayan lore is that Red Wizards are Racial supremacists - they believe their blood is superior to that of the indigenous Rashemi/Raumvari people. And yet, time and again, designers/artists ignore this important factoid and create pasty looking Red Wizards.
{sigh}
Is so hard to ignore the stereotypes and go with something original? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jul 2013 01:10:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 03:53:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, the Mulan blood - and by extension the Red Wizards - I always pictured much like the Black Wizards of Stygia/Conan fame, and as some of you may recall, James Earl Jones played Thulsa Doom in the first movie (although I think that was miscast as well, but still, they are supposed to be dark-skinned).
In Robert Howard's universe, Stygia was a pre-curser of Egypt. In D&D/FR, the Mulan people were originally from Egypt. We know how dark the Egyptian people are, regardless. One of the most important pieces of Thayan lore is that Red Wizards are Racial supremacists - they believe their blood is superior to that of the indigenous Rashemi/Raumvari people. And yet, time and again, designers/artists ignore this important factoid and create pasty looking Red Wizards.
{sigh}
Is so hard to ignore the stereotypes and go with something original?
Well, if the stereotypical Red Wizard looks Mulan, then a pasty one is original.   |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 12:22:31
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Artwork that depicts Red Wizards is best when it shows mages that are sinister, utterly confident and severe. This includes their demeanor, their dress, their posture and especially their surroundings.
Consider the covers of sourcebooks like Dreams of the Red Wizards or Spellbound, or the novel Red Magic: THAT is what a Red Wizard looks like.
Of the art pieces in the WotC article, only the pencil drawing comes closest, but the rendition of same in color effectively loses everything that makes Red Wizards feared on sight by denizens of the Realms and new-to-the-Realms gamers (seriously, that Red Wizard looks like he belongs in a Batman cartoon, not in the Realms), who would easily page over that piece of art and not bother to read about one of the more intriguing and dangerous lands of the Realms.
A good piece of art will hook readers faster than any wall of text on a page.
Since WotC are trying to reboot the Realms then they need to include more detail in the artwork and be sure to get the details right (i.e. that in-color Red Wizard’s skin color is plausible, but it looks all wrong—it needs to look human, not ghostlike).
WotC needs to consider the physical state of Thay, what kinds of clothing and raw materials to make clothing are available, the inherent arrogance of a Red Wizard, the fact that Red Wizards have traveled the Realms and returned with slaves or wives from distant lands (from which offspring might someday become Red Wizards) and the needs/wants/styles of the various Zulkiirs (are they still around in the post-Spellplague Realms?) instead of starting from overt Egyptian influences when they try to depict Red Wizards.
This is why not every Red Wizard needs to wear red robes or be bald. Nor do Red Wizards come in one skin tone.
But they do need to be shown doing more than just posing. Show them in a spell circle, show them commanding their servants or herding their slaves into a ritual room, show them in their magical labs surrounded by all sorts of paraphernalia.
I just hope they don’t ever again depict a dwarf in Red Wizard robes. For a campaign setting book, that’s just wrong. Leave it to players to go that route in their own campaigns instead. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2013 : 23:06:48
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Yeah, I took more to the pencil drawings too. In fact, of those pencil drawings, the top 2 on the left and the bottom 2 on the right looks most like what red wizards might wear. I especially like the pencil female at the top, but she'd look better with "parachute pants" or "I dream of Jeannie" pants. The Arabic head coverings I see as something not favored though, given their tendency towards shaving the head and tattooing it. I see them more inclined to wearing circlets, crowns, laurels... though they may have a hooded cloak.
I'll agree as well, with DND Next, the red wizard "look" should change. Some red wizards will have adopted growing hair. I see it as more of a woman thing, possibly with topknot/braids... and if they do grow hair, its probably some kind of garish decoration (i.e. maybe they've got streaks... maybe half the braid is blonde and half is black <or red and black... red and white>... maybe its got their wizard mark colored into it.... maybe its shaved like a Mohawk but with all the hair leaning to the front and hanging in front of one eye barely).
Red should still be a marked piece of their attire, but it may only be highlighting their attire. Some red wizards may have taken to wearing black with red trim, or black gloves while wearing crimson gems sparkling in the rings. Others may have gone another direction and tried to mix white attire with red. Somewhere there should be red, and it should catch the eye. Also, rather than big ceremonial attire, I see them wearing simpler but more extravagantly decorated attire (say with pictures of dragons, snakes, golden fire, phoenixes, griffons, etc.... wound into them).
Their racial stock may have been "muddied" somewhat by their time outside of their homeland, so I also would not be surprised to find them developing some color in their skin. Family lines will probably become more important than they ever were in Thay. You know, an interesting "fact" might be that people outside men marrying a Thayan woman might be expected by the family to take the wife's name as a means of continuing the family name (or that their children will take the mother's name instead of the Father's as a more simple expedient). Another interesting "fact" might be that the red wizards in exile limit the familial control these father's might have over their children by raising the children as a "community" unto itself.
You are right Jeremy, they neeed to show them doing something other than posing.... and they better never, ever show another dwarf wearing red wizard robes. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2013 : 03:16:33
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I am fairly confident that the first picture at least is recycled art. I think I saw it
Previously in A dragon magazine article about red wizard enclaves outside of Thay. Cool art work, just nothing new IMO |
Edited by - scererar on 09 Jul 2013 03:20:32 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2013 : 04:19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I am fairly confident that the first picture at least is recycled art. I think I saw it
Previously in A dragon magazine article about red wizard enclaves outside of Thay. Cool art work, just nothing new IMO
It's from Dragon 366. If anyone wants to get more upset at that particular picture, the guy on the right is a Warlock, not a Wizard, yet is part of the Enclave and called a Red Wizard (who just happens to come about his magic via a pact).
Personally, I am fine with a Dwarf and a Warlock. I believe after 100 years of what amounts to exile a number of the Enclaves won't look like what we are used to seeing out of the Red Wizards. It's almost a certainty that sooner or later there won't be enough Mulan-blooded partners to go around. Once you introduce non-Mulan humans, are non-humans really that far behind? I think it would be a lot harder to maintain a generation spanning racist attitude when you no longer have the power of the state backing you up. That first generation that were actually native to Thay might be die hards but over 100 years you are going to see some cracks in the system as the kids start asking what's so great about that country that would just as soon kill you as take you back in it's current state. Also, with no state backing the Enclaves have to turn to local support in increasing numbers which would (in theory) hasten their eventual descent into going native.
I think the Enclaves would go a number of different ways. Some would go native and take on any that seem to have skill (and money, similar political leanings, etc) and train them in the ways of the Red Wizards. Some would try to cling to the system as long as they could. Some would probably try to band together for some larger, long term goal. Some might throw their lot in with what passes for the Zhentarim. Overall I would think they would go a lot of different ways, and some of those ways could easily lead to Dwarves, Warlocks, maybe even Psions joining their ranks for a multitude of reasons. And of course some of those with differing ideas would be hostile towards each other. I think there is a lot of development potential with the Enclave idea where it stands now that they have been cut off from Thay for a century. 4E Realms missed the boat on this one IMHO.
As for the art, I like the pencil sketch at the end. I think overall the Red Wizards should have a variety of looks. There should be "court" style robes that are intricate and way over done for important gatherings and there should be more practical day to day robes. There should also be considerable variety amongst those two general types, possibly noting station, wealth, school of magic, personal taste, etc. There could even be a great variety for the Red Wizards in the Enclaves to help illustrate how they have adapted over the last 100 years. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2013 : 14:52:12
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| So if we have Red Warlocks of Thay now, does that mean we can have Wizard Knights of Vassa as well? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2013 : 15:43:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Artwork that depicts Red Wizards is best when it shows mages that are sinister, utterly confident and severe. This includes their demeanor, their dress, their posture and especially their surroundings.
Consider the covers of sourcebooks like Dreams of the Red Wizards or Spellbound, or the novel Red Magic: THAT is what a Red Wizard looks like.
Agreed. Though there are, of course, oddballs, most of them indeed show those traits you mentioned. In fact, it is mentioned that even the relatively softhearted need to affect some semblance of sinister demeanor just so they would not be deemed weak by their peers. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2013 : 21:22:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So if we have Red Warlocks of Thay now, does that mean we can have Wizard Knights of Vassa as well?
While I agree that some Thayans would become warlocks, I don't see them ruling anymore than a priest would. Essentially a warlock's pact to a "higher power" and a priest's service to a deity are both anti-thetical to the red wizard's belief that no higher power should govern them and their practices. Now, I could see theurges who practice either warlock pacts, binder's pact magic, OR divine magic but combine it with wizardry being able to move up within the "red wizard" hierarchy..... but some red wizards would look down upon them in disdain. I state this because to do differently make "red wizards" just another group of "evil wizards"... they might as well be Zhents or something else. In order to keep some of the old mystery around them, some factors should be kept in place.
I'd also highly recommend that in 5th edition, if they implement any kind of group ritual magic where students aid the teacher, they build such systems with the red wizards in mind. Battlefield circles need to see the light of day again as they were hinted at in 1st and 2nd edition... that's a piece that was lost in 3rd and 4th edition. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ilmarinnen
Acolyte
Ukraine
29 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 17:50:26
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As far as I remember in old Thay sorcerers, warlocks and psions were severely persecuted.* Except the ones that were accepted as personal servants of wizards and temples. RW did not want to see rivals.
Still hard time in emigration can change their views.
In fact Thayan emigration is a very interesting story. It reminds me much of the White emigrants. There is even something in common between evacuation from Bezantur in 1385DR and the White evacuation from Crimea in 1920ad.
*In my campaign there is a law that dictates to burn such ones to ashes and throw them to the wind. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 18:30:33
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| Thay is boring now. One lich ruling a land full of undead. Yawn. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 18:44:01
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Honestly, I wasn't fond of the final art concept. Too bulky, and too "old style" Red Wizard, IMO. I agree with Schindehette that the test artwork with Conceptopolis was way too Egyptian. It was beautiful, for sure, and if I had a seriously Egyptian-themed area (distant past Realms game) then I'd yoink those for personal use. But full-on Egyptian just no longer works for the Realms, especially in 1480+ Realms.
If they're really serious about keeping the past lore and history, then they need to work organically. Aren't all of the Red Wizards enclaves essentially pushed into exile? Unless they are coming back to Thay en masse, putting Szass Tam out of business, and re-installing the "old ways and customs" of the original Red Wizards, then they need to change and adapt the look.
They've been away from Thay for over 100 years, and in that time they are going to be influenced by the cultures where they're exiled. And unless they are inbreeding, they're going to be mixing with other races and their beliefs and practices. The new Red Wizards need to reflect that. Perhaps some of them keep hints of Thay, a great-grandfather's piece of Thayan jewelry or the like. But before they start doing the artwork, they need to decide what the Red Wizards are going to be, how they evolved, and where they came together in exile.
They should not just modernize the old image, relying on thematic elements of old Thay. Old Thay has been gone for 100+ years.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 12 Sep 2013 18:47:58 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 19:57:42
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I agree with Therise's outlook on this. I hope they take a similar approach with the lands that are returning from their little trip to the other world, though we won't have much to on in regard to the cultures they interacted with on the other side*.
* And this would be an excellent opportunity to give at least an outline of those other cultures for those who want to know more about the other world. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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DND Next Portrayal of Red Wizards
