| Author |
 Topic  |
|
jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 03:26:14
|
There's the widespread perception that undead are unnatural or against nature. I can understand this viewpoint in many cases but what about spontaneously spawned undead?
In the realms at least, undead can naturally spring from existence in areas of concentrated evil , or negativity. Well couldn't this be seen as an act of nature? Would it be plausible to say a necromancer is basically a druid with a focus on all things emanating from naturally occurring death energy? and decay
If growth and life are a part of nature why not death decay and the quasi state in between, undeath?
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 03:36:29
|
| I believe it stems from the fact that life and death are considered absolutes- undeath is neither, and therefore unnatural, because nature itself does not recognize or create such creatures. Also, negative energy is planar, and comes from OUTSIDE the material (natural) plane of existence. Pure evil is neither natural nor specifically associated with death or undeath, in any case. It is simply one of the four "prime" forces of the cosmos (along with good, law, and chaos) in the D&D multiverse. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
 |
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2390 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 03:43:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
There's the widespread perception that undead are unnatural or against nature. I can understand this viewpoint in many cases but what about spontaneously spawned undead?
Mostly notions on this subject come either from elves with their phobias, or druids who keep an eye on the "big picture", but rarely expand it to "Multiverse".
See also the rant from one fine, if a little cranky (*), lady in Elminster's Ecologies, Appendix 1 (that one was in free downloads). 
(*) "As if keeping an undead ferret in her tunic weren't enough to drive civilized company away, she spent her last social gathering explaining the disparate relative effects of falling damage on living and undead rat squirrels to two decidedly uncomfortable apprentice mages with good prospects."
quote:
In the realms at least, undead can naturally spring from existence in areas of concentrated evil , or negativity.
Er, what?
quote:
Would it be plausible to say a necromancer is basically a druid with a focus on all things emanating from naturally occurring death energy? and decay
No.
quote:
If growth and life are a part of nature why not death decay and the quasi state in between, undeath?
It's kind of out of the cycle - in a dead-end (sorry) rather than on the circle track. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 15:04:35
|
| Because most people are told by their churches that they should follow the church's tenets, and in return, whenever they die their souls will go onto the afterlife and meld with their deity..... unless of course some wicked necromancer comes along and traps your soul in your body and prevents it from going to its "natural end". Even spontaneously occurring undead would be considered somehow created by some magical taint that stopped the soul from going onto its normal end. It would be a rare few that would understand the actual difference, given that they're presented with so many undead that remember their former lives. Unthinking undead would simply be seen as trapped beings whose will is able to be easily commanded (unless they go commandless, which usually means they start on a killing spree). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 15:41:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
In the realms at least, undead can naturally spring from existence in areas of concentrated evil , ornegativity. Well couldn't this be seen as an act of nature?
No. Places don't become evil without the outside influence of intelligent beings. Nature is true neutral.
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Would it be plausible to say a necromancer is basically a druid with a focus on all things emanating from naturally occurring death energy? and decay
But there isn't naturally occurring death energy... And decay is just part of the natural cycle.
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
If growth and life are a part of nature why not death decay and the quasi state in between, undeath?
Death and decay are part of nature, but only as natural processes: at some point, living creatures die, and their remains decay, returning nutrients to the environment. Undeath is a break from that cycle -- something dies, energy from outside the natural world infuses it, and the undead entity doesn't break down and return its nutrients to the environment. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2390 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 16:00:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Because most people are told by their churches that they should follow the church's tenets, and in return, whenever they die their souls will go onto the afterlife and meld with their deity..... unless of course some wicked necromancer comes along and traps your soul in your body and prevents it from going to its "natural end".
Messing in gods' business is a problem, of course, but it's not like intelligent undead are more frequently created on purpose than by spawning.
But the question was why undead are considered "unnatural", not why gods or priests tend to dislike them.
quote:
Unthinking undead would simply be seen as trapped beings whose will is able to be easily commanded (unless they go commandless, which usually means they start on a killing spree).
Who is trapped where? If an undead is mindless, it's just a moving corpse or skeleton. When the necromancer decides that the mold-covered gravestone means descendants probably will not be hell-bent on avenging desecration of this tomb, anything that could go away did so a century ago. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
Karyl
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 16:32:35
|
I don't want to plunge off in a different direction - but it begs the question, what *is* considered 'natural' in the FR? There are so many different meanings of the word even here in our mundane existence.
I saw above that Alystra posited that 'natural' means 'from the Prime Material Plane',which is certainly potentially valid. Unless I am reading her wrong (correct me if so!) her argument is that since Negative Energy, responsible for 'spontaneous undead', does not originate from the Prime Material, and therefore undead caused by these circumstances are also 'unnatural'. What about other inner planes, and their denizens, though? (The elemental planes, for example.) Are they also to be considered unnatural, in the way that undead are unnatural...?
If we went instead with an Aristotelian definition, 'natural' is mutually exclusive and muturally exhaustive to 'artificial', in the sense of 'made by man' (not in the modern sense of 'fake'). To translate that to FR we can take 'man' to mean 'anything of sentience/sapience', I suppose. By and large undead are *constructed* beings, so you could say they are 'artificially' made, or made as a direct result of sentient/sapient interference, and therefore 'unnatural' in that sense. (Particularly if you wanted to save 'artificial' for things untouched by life/unlife.) But then, there are a great many *constructed* things we don't tend to think of as 'unnatural' even if they are 'artificial'. And the question is, why are undead called 'unnatural' not 'artificial'.
I'd personally tend to think of 'unnatural' as a psychological reaction to undead. I can conceive of a society - though I don't know if one exists in FR? - where necromancy is expected, anticipated, and indeed encouraged to be practiced upon the fallen. I'm thinking a bit of Abarrach in Death's Gate (to jump canon) which had found a way to make undead/zombies just part of ordinary culture. Menial labor, household servants, guards and warriors, etc. Surely they wouldn't consider undead to be 'unnatural'. Life/undeath/death could well be considered a 'normative' cycle in a society with different cultural values. (Wouldn't that be fun? A society that was so fragile and desperate that it 'needed' those unthinking, unfeeling bodies in order to do some form of work that the living couldn't manage on their own... and to ask to be burned, buried, or dropped into the sea was a criminally selfish waste of resources?)
Presuming, I suppose, that you're talking about reanimated corpses. Once you get into trapping or harnessing souls, stepping forward to interfere with or arrest the 'person' as a whole compared to the 'body' alone, the issue gets a whole lot more complicated... (Is creating undead considered 'unnatural', for example, because the act is evil? Or is the act evil because it creates an unnatural being? I would tend to think more the latter...)
The idea that you're talking about a 'widespread perception' makes me want to put the moniker down to a cultural root. In which case 'undeath breaks the expected life/death cycle' is probably as good an answer as any!
|
Our bones that lie here await yours. |
|
|
|
Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 16:45:18
|
The closest that undeath has ever come to being natural is in 4e on the Shadowfell where become undead when one dies on the plane is simply a natural effect of the plane and natural.
On the material plane its not natural, closer to being an invasive species.
It'd be cool if there was a Shadowfell druid who studied undead ecology on the Shadowfell and protected it the way a normal druid protects normal ecosystems, but destroys any undead that wonders onto the material plane in order to maintain balance. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 22:41:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Because most people are told by their churches that they should follow the church's tenets, and in return, whenever they die their souls will go onto the afterlife and meld with their deity..... unless of course some wicked necromancer comes along and traps your soul in your body and prevents it from going to its "natural end".
Messing in gods' business is a problem, of course, but it's not like intelligent undead are more frequently created on purpose than by spawning.
But the question was why undead are considered "unnatural", not why gods or priests tend to dislike them.
quote:
Unthinking undead would simply be seen as trapped beings whose will is able to be easily commanded (unless they go commandless, which usually means they start on a killing spree).
Who is trapped where? If an undead is mindless, it's just a moving corpse or skeleton. When the necromancer decides that the mold-covered gravestone means descendants probably will not be hell-bent on avenging desecration of this tomb, anything that could go away did so a century ago.
And I answered.... because the priests preach to the populace that they are unnatural. The populace, who spend the majority of their time working the fields, etc.... rely upon the intellectuals to tell them the truth of such. Given that the populace already doesn't like undead, having a priest tell them that its unnatural means its easily accepted as an answer. You're putting too much assumed knowledge in the hands of the populace, most of whom don't have degrees in monster study.
I'll give you a somewhat example from our world. Someone in America gets upset that some Mexican immigrants are waving Mexican flags at an American rally. Said immigrants begin spouting that its a "racist" thing. Now, I'm not arguing whether what is done is right or wrong... but the "pop stars" that people look up to might also start calling the action racist. The truth is that its not "racism"... its "nationalism". People will call things that which gets the most fired up response. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 23:31:49
|
A cycle of nature appears to be that you are born, live a life and die.
Anything that interferes with this, extended life, immortality, murder all are disruption of natural life process.
Some religions advocate (in the Realms more so) acceleration or change of the natural order. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Karyl
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 23:48:12
|
| Sleyvas - would you say that "natural" and "unnatural" only exist in the eyes of a particular culture/faith/class, or is it instead possible for something in the Realms to be absolutely unnatural, or unnatural by its very nature, independent of any given culture looking at it? ie, is (un)naturalness purely a construct of moral relativism? |
Our bones that lie here await yours. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 23:56:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Karyl
Sleyvas - would you say that "natural" and "unnatural" only exist in the eyes of a particular culture/faith/class, or is it instead possible for something in the Realms to be absolutely unnatural, or unnatural by its very nature, independent of any given culture looking at it? ie, is (un)naturalness purely a construct of moral relativism?
It is the "nature" of negative energy to flow into things and warp/twist them. Therefore, if there were some interaction between the negative plane and Toril (and such "bumpings" do "naturally" occur), then this flow of negative energy could be viewed by some cultures as a natural thing... granted a natural thing that they don't like and they want to "plug up" the leak of negative energy.
On the flip side, there will be other cultures that say that this energy in and of it self is unnatural because it is from "another place... an unnatural place".
As to whether there can be unnatural things in the realms. Yes, a necromancer DELIBERATELY infusing negative energy into dead bodies is unnatural. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 00:10:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Karyl
I don't want to plunge off in a different direction - but it begs the question, what *is* considered 'natural' in the FR? There are so many different meanings of the word even here in our mundane existence.
I saw above that Alystra posited that 'natural' means 'from the Prime Material Plane',which is certainly potentially valid. Unless I am reading her wrong (correct me if so!) her argument is that since Negative Energy, responsible for 'spontaneous undead', does not originate from the Prime Material, and therefore undead caused by these circumstances are also 'unnatural'. What about other inner planes, and their denizens, though? (The elemental planes, for example.) Are they also to be considered unnatural, in the way that undead are unnatural...?
If we went instead with an Aristotelian definition, 'natural' is mutually exclusive and muturally exhaustive to 'artificial', in the sense of 'made by man' (not in the modern sense of 'fake'). To translate that to FR we can take 'man' to mean 'anything of sentience/sapience', I suppose. By and large undead are *constructed* beings, so you could say they are 'artificially' made, or made as a direct result of sentient/sapient interference, and therefore 'unnatural' in that sense. (Particularly if you wanted to save 'artificial' for things untouched by life/unlife.) But then, there are a great many *constructed* things we don't tend to think of as 'unnatural' even if they are 'artificial'. And the question is, why are undead called 'unnatural' not 'artificial'.
By "unnatural" in regards to the negative energy plane, I meant that it is PURE negative energy, which is NOT natural to the "normal" plane of existence, ie, the Prime. Each of the elemental planes exists OUTSIDE the "natural" existence of the Prime, where all things are in balance. Negative energy in its pure form cannot exist naturally in the Prime, but only through outside influences (spacial rips, portals, spells, and the like.) Neither can any of the other elemental or planar energies. Each is part of a whole on the Prime, and if they become unbalanced, it is always through some unnatural means. Thus, there can't be a "natural" form of undead. Their very creation, even spontaneously, indicates that some outside force has interfered with the natural order of the Prime. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Karyl
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 01:51:17
|
Sleyvas: noted! I suppose I was focusing too much on your "because the priests tell them so" and not enough on the artifice of the event.
quote:
By "unnatural" in regards to the negative energy plane, I meant that it is PURE negative energy, which is NOT natural to the "normal" plane of existence, ie, the Prime. Each of the elemental planes exists OUTSIDE the "natural" (*Karyl: perhaps "normal" is a better word here?) existence of the Prime, where all things are in balance. Negative energy in its pure form cannot exist naturally in the Prime, but only through outside influences (spacial rips, portals, spells, and the like.) Neither can any of the other elemental or planar energies. Each is part of a whole on the Prime, and if they become unbalanced, it is always through some unnatural means. Thus, there can't be a "natural" form of undead. Their very creation, even spontaneously, indicates that some outside force has interfered with the natural order of the Prime.
Ah, I see! The undead require the effect of pure negative energy (which does not exist on the Prime) to interact with physical forms/corpses on the Prime. And that crossover is unnatural by its very nature.
I can appreciate the validity of that argument, but I'm not sure I would agree with it. I don't think I would limit natural phenomena to the Prime. What is 'natural' seems to vary from plane to plane, since they are all quite different - well, places, for lack of a better word.
I think I do agree with the overarching gist of your argument, though - the interference (so to speak) of the Negative Energy plane with the Prime in such a way as brings about spontaneous undead isn't an interference that can naturally occur. It requires some kind of rip/portal/spell/etc that is not found in normal planar interaction, but must rather be specifically caused. Since the interaction of the Negative with the Prime is itself unnatural, anything spawned from it must also be considered unnatural by extension.
I just don't think I'd pin that naturalness/unnaturalness to the Prime Material... but maybe to cosmology as a whole. That way we could say any errant or 'forced' or 'spelled' interactions between any two planes that would not generally otherwise occur could be called unnatural. And the case of undead is just one such. |
Our bones that lie here await yours. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 07:25:34
|
| Undead of any type, regardless of their origins, are somehow anim ate because they draw Negative energy. Living creatures draw Positive energy. Theological arguments aside, the natural state of things in most D&D worlds is for living things to be alive or dead, thus unliving and undead things must be defined as unnatural or - more likely - supernatural. Animated conduits to the Negative Energy Plane are definitely not natural on worlds like Toril, Krynn, Oerth, and Earth. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 07:27:12
|
| Well, truthfully, I think it would be unnatural for ANY inter-planar interactions. None of the planes "naturally" cross over one another without some form of interference. They have definite boundaries, and do not normally mix. So what is true for the Prime (what most would consider the "natural" world in any case) would also be true for the others. Beings from the elemental fire plane do not normally exist on the water plane, for example. They CAN'T. Same for beings of air on the earth plane, etc. They don't exist naturally there because it's not their native environment. And since most beings/creatures are of Prime origin, that is what is considered the default "natural" world. Where all elements/energies are in balance, and beings from any of them can exist- but obviously, not ALL such beings are either naturally occurring or native to it. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 07:33:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Undead of any type, regardless of their origins, are somehow anim ate because they draw Negative energy. Living creatures draw Positive energy. Theological arguments aside, the natural state of things in most D&D worlds is for living things to be alive or dead, thus unliving and undead things must be defined as unnatural or - more likely - supernatural. Animated conduits to the Negative Energy Plane are definitely not natural on worlds like Toril, Krynn, Oerth, and Earth.
Hmmm so the realms are structured in such a way as to say positive energy is intrinsic yet negative energy must come from the outside? Somehow that doesn't sound right.
Side question, If Undeath is the meeting point between life and death shouldn't it draw equally on positive and negative energies? |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 08:04:33
|
Positive energy is said to make life, exposure to the Positive Energy plane infuses a living thing with more life - and overexposure can cause a supercharged life force to explode!
Negative energy of course drains life, exposure to the Negative Energy plane depletes and diminishes a living creature - sometimes these victims spontaneously become undead.
Perhaps some (half?) of all possible worlds within the D&D cosmos have affinity with negative over positive, just as (in theory) half the galactic masses in our cosmos may be comprised of anti-particles.
Liches manipulate necromantic energies to achieve their state. Ghosts somehow spontaneously anchor echoes of their souls in an ethereal state. Shadows are of course linked to the Shadowfell, wights to Negative Energy, vampires to living blood. None of this seems natural in the Realms, to me, especially after reading Van Richten‘s (Ravenloft) explorations about such creatures. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 08:09:49
|
Undeath is not, in my opinion, the halfway point between anything and anything. It's not half-life and half-death, because there's no lifeforce; it's 100% dead. Normally, when things die, they stop thinking and they stop moving. It's unnatural for a dead thing to move, particularly of its own will... or something else's will. It's unnatural for minds to be attached to corpses. It's always unnatural.
I remember one or two undead druids in the history of D&D adventures, and such things need explanations because undeath is unnatural. If it were natural, druids would become liches on a regular basis, because it would enable them to continue tending their domains indefinitely. If undeath were natural, normal animals wouldn't recoil from undead things.
It's also not halfway between positive energy and negative energy... undead are harmed by positive energy, so they can't logically have it within themselves.
Undeath doesn't occur in the absence of magic... either a spell or a long-term enchantment, laid by a spellcaster or power of whatever sort. The closest it gets (on the Material plane, anyway) to spontaneous occurrence is someone being killed while pursuing some duty of extreme importance and emotional investment, and rising as undead to finish their task. I would posit, even when the author doesn't specifically describe it, that these occurrences are enabled by a watching power or fiend. It just doesn't happen by accident; for example, a squirrel that dies of old age deep in a forest on an untouched-for-centuries island does not turn into a zombie. It just dies, and that's the end of that squirrel's story. Rest in peace, little bugger. Same goes for humans, demihumans, humanoids, and every other living thing, under natural conditions. It's only when conditions are unnatural that undead can come into being.
Sorry if I sound cranky; I'm still cooling down from being reminded of 4e a few minutes ago. Have a natural (and lunacy-free) weekend.  |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 08:15:58
|
But then: what is natural? Do all animate things require Chauntea‘s approval to be natural? Are animated things permitted by Myrkul/Cyric/Kelemvor asserted as natural? Do vampiric blood-predators count as natural? What about liches in a world which is itself sustained through magical energies?
Are gods and Powers natural? Outsiders, celestials, fiends? Their native-born planetouched descendants? Are Chosen natural? What about “special case“ creatures like Storm Silverhand the unique goody-two-shoes banshee variant?
Finder existed as a mortal for untold centuries, sustained in an ageless state by clever proximity to the Positive Energy plane. Is this natural?
Refine the parameters of your question and you will find that you have narrowed the range of possible answers. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 09:15:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Undead of any type, regardless of their origins, are somehow anim ate because they draw Negative energy. Living creatures draw Positive energy. Theological arguments aside, the natural state of things in most D&D worlds is for living things to be alive or dead, thus unliving and undead things must be defined as unnatural or - more likely - supernatural. Animated conduits to the Negative Energy Plane are definitely not natural on worlds like Toril, Krynn, Oerth, and Earth.
This is untrue. Were living creatures drawing in positive energy, they would be getting younger and healthier. This is not the case. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Karyl
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 16:05:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But then: what is natural? [snip] Refine the parameters of your question and you will find that you have narrowed the range of possible answers.
My point exactly! It is simple enough in the mundane world - when given enough thought - to sketch terms for the natural. Much more difficult in the fantastic realms. I think it's a worthy question to ask. At least, we can hardly really get at the heart of 'whether X is unnatural' much less 'why X is unnatural' if we don't even know what 'natural' means!
Matters become quite confusing when you throw magic - and all it enables you to do - into the mix. Certainly magic itself is natural; but spells, cast by sentient beings to harness that natural 'energy', aren't.
I suppose I'd argue that things which require directed intelligence, which require mind, to move them, are artificial; and any causes from them are artificial as well. Those which don't, which occur spontaneously without the interference of mind-in-action, are natural. (There is an obvious caveat here - the gods; or at least, those which are not ascended mortals. They are an integral part of cosmology themselves responsible for natural things, in the sense that the gods 'are' their portfolios. Their own uncertain nature puts the gods in a different category from the cosmos they control and/or create. What exactly that category is, bears more thinking!)
Unnatural things occur when artifice moves reality against nature, in such a way that it mimics or mocks nature close enough to trouble the moral sentiments of observing sentient beings. Unnatural is not the same thing as non-natural, after all. It has a subjective dimension to it that non-natural doesn't. A windmill is non-natural, that is, artificial, but it's not unnatural. |
Our bones that lie here await yours. |
|
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 18:15:40
|
Aye, if necromantic arts are considered part of an accepted cultural achievement, its artificial produce could be considered natural (i.e. not unnatural). But still, such a necromancer is creating an artificial lifeform by making a zombie, he just uses natural resources in the form of a corpse and mixes in outside negative energies to create an artificial tool meant to approximate life. In doing so he manipulates certain laws of fantasy reality, such as the one that seems to imply that a creature needs a mind and a soul to animate its body.
Most undead are driven by negative energy, which creates a 'fake soul' or animus to control the corpse it infuses with. An animus gives an undead a permanent insatiable hunger, that drives its every actions. This animus is fairly weakminded and is easily manipulated or commanded by those with an understanding of negative energies. Intelligent undead manage to somehow retain their minds aswell, but as they are soulless and need to shield the mind from a hungering animus, the mind is inevitably twisted into something a tad bit more malevolent. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
|
|
|
Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 18:44:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No. Places don't become evil without the outside influence of intelligent beings. Nature is true neutral.
The negative energy plane is neutral.
Mindless undead used to be neural in earlier editions
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But there isn't naturally occurring death energy...
There is even a whole plane full of that and nothing else
If a forest fire is an occasion where the connection to the elemental plane of fire is dominant is seen as a natural event, then undead rising from some plane where the connection to the negative energy plane is currently dominant should be just as natural.
|
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 21:41:21
|
But there's a problem with that thinking. A forest fire is NOT an instance of connection to the elemental fire plane UNLESS it was started as a result of a planar rip/portal/spell/what-have-you. Otherwise, it was simply a normal fire, regardless of how it started. Connections to other planes can only be made when the natural barriers between those planes are broken or torn open. Thus, your forest fire is simply that, a naturally occurring (if caused by natural sources such as lightening, intense heat, etc) or artificially ignited (ie, spells, someone gets careless with a campfire, etc) fire. It has no connection to the plane of elemental fire beyond the fact that it is made of that element.
And the question is not whether negative energy on its own is "evil"- it is simply the absence of life(positive) energy- or more specifically, it is the opposite of it. Positive energy is usually considered natural, but here's the thing: PURE positive energy is just as "unnatural" to the Prime (the basic plane of existence for most living things) as negative energy, for exactly the reason given. Too much of either one causes the same end result- DEATH! (And possibly also undeath in the case of negative energy.)
However, it must also be said that both the positive and negative planes have their own native beings as well, but that these generally cannot survive outside their plane of origin, any more than a water elemental can survive on the plane of fire. They are MADE of that energy, and require it to survive. remaining outside of it for any period usually destroys such creatures. (Except that undead created on the negative plane CAN be taken to the Prime, but they are not native to the negative plane, it is simply their place of origin.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 22:41:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
But there's a problem with that thinking. A forest fire is NOT an instance of connection to the elemental fire plane UNLESS it was started as a result of a planar rip/portal/spell/what-have-you. Otherwise, it was simply a normal fire, regardless of how it started.
That is to be questioned. I say that any fire is an expression of the elemental plane of fire on the material plane. Might not be a rift, but it exisist because the plane of fire exists. If the plane were to ever be extinguished, no more fire could burn anywhere.
Thus negative energy is as natural as the four elements. If for whathever reason enough negative energy gathers on the prime, arising undead should be considered just as natural
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Connections to other planes can only be made when the natural barriers between those planes are broken or torn open. Thus, your forest fire is simply that, a naturally occurring (if caused by natural sources such as lightening, intense heat, etc) or artificially ignited (ie, spells, someone gets careless with a campfire, etc) fire. It has no connection to the plane of elemental fire beyond the fact that it is made of that element.
Actually it has been often written how particular large fires or volcanoes sometimes just open full fledged rifts to the plane of fire through which it's denizens sometimes enter the prime. All without any wizard or cleric or other magic user doing it, just happening naturally. Too much fire in one place "calling home" if you so will
|
Edited by - Mirtek on 01 Sep 2013 22:43:57 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 00:08:27
|
But the problem is that the fire doesn't directly COME from the elemental plane. It originates on the plane (Prime) where it occurs. So it doesn't have any connection to the elemental plane itself. And while the planes are the ultimate SOURCE of their respective elements, those same elements also exist independently on the worlds where they are found. (One might argue that they would exist without them, and that the planes themselves are simply the incarnate expressions of those elements. If someone starts a fire, or if it rains, does that mean that fire or water came from the elemental plane? No. It was started or was already there, and the elemental plane had nothing to do with it. (I've done extensive study on the concept of elements both as part of the universal balance and as individual elements, and there is nothing to suggest that a particular "portion" of an element has any real link to the plane of its element. (I'm Wiccan and elements are an important part of that system. We treat them as building blocks of the universe, where each MUST be in balance in order for life to exist. Too much of any one, and life ceases to exist.)
This brings me too the "natural rift" you mentioned. These rifts are tears in the barriers between planes, a state which, despite its origin, is NEVER "natural". The natural state of the planes is to remain separate and distinct. Whenever such a tear occurs, it indicates that an imbalance or some form of upheaval has occurred. No matter how it came about, that is NOT the normal state of things in the multiverse. The planes are able to exist BECAUSE they remain separate. Planescape explained it best, with each plane having its own place within the cosmic wheel, as well as having para-elemental planes which were essentially regions where planar boundaries were weak and two planes would "bleed" into each other (planes of ooze, smoke, dust, ice, etc.) This was the only instance where such things commonly occur. On the prime, it's usually a case of some massive upheaval has either weakened the boundaries or magical energies have created a rip. Or, in the case of Mithril Hall, someone accidentally opens one by their activities. Even in Neverwinter, it was the imprisoned elemental primordial that caused the disaster in that city, and later in Luskan as well. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 00:35:02
|
*The idea that in order to cook a meal one needs permission of an elemental plane, clearly strikes me as un Reality or Realms Fantasy Reality.
Your tinder box will not work even in best conditions unless elemental plane of Fire leaks though to place a creature is trying to make a fire? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 01:17:04
|
| Yeah, I don't buy that either. That fire doesn't stem DIRECTLY from the plane, which is precisely the point. It's not naturally connected to it other than as the "ultimate source" of fire as an element. It exists independently of the plane itself. It has its own point of ignition, its own "life" and fuel. It exists not BECAUSE the plane exists, but because something caused it and feeds it. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 02:44:55
|
quote:
Mirtek
Mindless undead used to be neural in earlier editions
I think that‘s a consequence of the nine-spoked alignment system, not an accurate property of the undead themselves. Most undead with any semblance or echo of self-will were described as hungry, angry, hateful of all living things. The walking (or floating) dead must be appeased, their very touch drains and consumes life from the “natural“ world.
I suppose the same might be said of elementals ... they need to burn and drown and engulf and encase things, usually this proves fatal to non-elemental creatures born into balanced natural worlds ... but the elementals themselves express no emotional compulsions while they do their thing, while undead actively crave to destroy the living. To me this seems definitely evil. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 03:10:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Mirtek
Mindless undead used to be neural in earlier editions
I think that‘s a consequence of the nine-spoked alignment system, not an accurate property of the undead themselves. Most undead with any semblance or echo of self-will were described as hungry, angry, hateful of all living things. The walking (or floating) dead must be appeased, their very touch drains and consumes life from the “natural“ world.
I suppose the same might be said of elementals ... they need to burn and drown and engulf and encase things, usually this proves fatal to non-elemental creatures born into balanced natural worlds ... but the elementals themselves express no emotional compulsions while they do their thing, while undead actively crave to destroy the living. To me this seems definitely evil.
The monster itself being unaware, which one certainly can be argued is not natural for that reason alone, is likely the reason that 2nd and prior Editions listed as neutral.
I did drag out this quote out of Core Rules: quote:
Zombies are mindless, animated corpses controlled by their creators, usually evil wizards or priests.
This is better then Skeletons, entry that indicates all of then controlled by Evil casters. These type of undead are much like a table or chair, or a trap. Alignment is not an issue, neutral without any doubt, no thoughts no way to be good or evil (which are choices of action).
As for the smart ones, vampires certainly can become infected and changed without their consent and certainly do have some choices, they tend to Evil in order to continue their Unholy Life (In game terms) and until their converted happens to be killed are controlled by the one that transform the new undead. Something like a lich, in the quest for longer life or power, they embark on an Evil path most of the time in order to get there quicker. Elves live longer and some on Evermeet retained a not Evil status. There certainly can be other examples as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Why are undead perceived as "unnatural"
