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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 18:53:08
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| Elemental creatures pouring in through the a forest fire from the plane of fire are not natural, they'd be an invasive species that could easily destroy an ecosystem on the Material Plane. On the Element Plane of fire they are natural, on the material plane they don't belong. This does not apply to most sentient creatures just creatures of animal intelligence. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 19:05:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
(I've done extensive study on the concept of elements both as part of the universal balance and as individual elements, and there is nothing to suggest that a particular "portion" of an element has any real link to the plane of its element. (I'm Wiccan and elements are an important part of that system.
Which has as little relevance to elements in D&D as the scientifc table of elements
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
This brings me too the "natural rift" you mentioned. These rifts are tears in the barriers between planes, a state which, despite its origin, is NEVER "natural". The natural state of the planes is to remain separate and distinct.
And the natural state of a forest is not being on fire. However when the lightning strikes, a completly natural event, and the conflagration is big enough, temporary rifts to the plane of fire open. Without any unnatural influence since time immemorial.
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 19:55:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
That is to be questioned. I say that any fire is an expression of the elemental plane of fire on the material plane. Might not be a rift, but it exisist because the plane of fire exists. If the plane were to ever be extinguished, no more fire could burn anywhere.
No, absolutely not the case. An elemental plane is pure element, perhaps with some visiting elements or other things/beings, but it is not a "source" for an element that exists in the prime. This is like arguing every single campfire and candle flame is somehow a mini-portal that draws from a source element, which is nonsense.
A campfire does not come from the elemental plane of fire any more than shadows come from the plane of shadow or lakes come from the elemental plane of water.
These elements exist separately in the prime.
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Actually it has been often written how particular large fires or volcanoes sometimes just open full fledged rifts to the plane of fire through which it's denizens sometimes enter the prime. All without any wizard or cleric or other magic user doing it, just happening naturally. Too much fire in one place "calling home" if you so will
Spontaneous, accidental connections to an elemental plane can open, yes. That doesn't mean that every element you see is constantly "drawing on connections" to a particular plane.
There are "thin spots" where ruptures are possible, of course, and there are also accidental rifts that can open when catastrophes or energies get thrown out of whack in an area. But just because those things can happen, it does not logically follow that every element is permanently somehow "connected" to an extraplanar "source".
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 02 Sep 2013 19:58:57 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 21:23:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
but it is not a "source" for an element that exists in the prime.
Actually it is. The Inner Planes for example states about the plane of fire: "All that is heat, radiance, and raw motion comes originally from this plane"
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
This is like arguing every single campfire and candle flame is somehow a mini-portal that draws from a source element, which is nonsense.
Not neccessarily drawing directly from the plane, but being able to burn because the plane exists. The concept of fire would vanish if the elemental plane would ever burn out.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
or energies get thrown out of whack in an area.
Technically almosz every single fire is a cause of energies being thrown out of whack, as things usually don't just combust
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
A campfire does not come from the elemental plane of fire any more than shadows come from the plane of shadow or lakes come from the elemental plane of water.
Like people could still die while there was no deity of death? Ups, they couldn't (really akward for some in unfortunate situations)
Or how in 4e PoL people still were greedy after the goddess of greed was slain? Wait, the concept of greed vanished with her.
The D&D physics aren't just physics like in RL (the 2e FRCS even states that the laws of physic on Toril are slightly out of touch with ours) |
Edited by - Mirtek on 02 Sep 2013 21:24:03 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 22:12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
but it is not a "source" for an element that exists in the prime.
Actually it is. The Inner Planes for example states about the plane of fire: "All that is heat, radiance, and raw motion comes originally from this plane"
Originally, yes. When the multiverse was first created or sprang into being, those planes were the original source.
That doesn't mean that there's a continuing, permanent connection that has remained since that instant in time. It also doesn't mean that a newly created campfire depends on anything in the plane of fire for it's creation or existence on the prime.
Once elements are in the prime, they are separated from the plane unless there is a currently open rift.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
This is like arguing every single campfire and candle flame is somehow a mini-portal that draws from a source element, which is nonsense.
Not neccessarily drawing directly from the plane, but being able to burn because the plane exists. The concept of fire would vanish if the elemental plane would ever burn out.
No, it wouldn't. When the spellplague turned the inner planes into the jumble of the Elemental Chaos, it didn't have an impact on every campfire or body of water in the Prime.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
or energies get thrown out of whack in an area.
Technically almosz every single fire is a cause of energies being thrown out of whack, as things usually don't just combust
I was talking about interplanar energies, not chemical energies.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
A campfire does not come from the elemental plane of fire any more than shadows come from the plane of shadow or lakes come from the elemental plane of water.
Like people could still die while there was no deity of death? Ups, they couldn't (really akward for some in unfortunate situations)
Or how in 4e PoL people still were greedy after the goddess of greed was slain? Wait, the concept of greed vanished with her.
The D&D physics aren't just physics like in RL (the 2e FRCS even states that the laws of physic on Toril are slightly out of touch with ours)
The inner planes are fundamentally different than the outer planes. The outer planes, and the gods, are subject to all sorts of weird things because they are entirely created, maintained, and shaped by faith and thought - which has a roundabout impact on "the rules of reality" in some cases. What happens to a deity can have a significant impact on the Prime.
The inner planes have nothing whatsoever to do with faith, belief, or gods. They simply exist. Gates and rifts can open to those planes (or currently, to the Elemental Chaos), but once elemental energy crosses over into the Prime it's separate from the original plane.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2013 : 02:35:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Mirtek
Mindless undead used to be neural in earlier editions
I think that‘s a consequence of the nine-spoked alignment system, not an accurate property of the undead themselves. Most undead with any semblance or echo of self-will were described as hungry, angry, hateful of all living things. The walking (or floating) dead must be appeased, their very touch drains and consumes life from the “natural“ world.
I suppose the same might be said of elementals ... they need to burn and drown and engulf and encase things, usually this proves fatal to non-elemental creatures born into balanced natural worlds ... but the elementals themselves express no emotional compulsions while they do their thing, while undead actively crave to destroy the living. To me this seems definitely evil.
But then how do explain the exceptions? For example Baelnorn don't seem to "hunger" and most are certainly not evil. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2013 : 03:35:48
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| That is exactly why the negative plane ITSELF is not inherently evil, although many of its inhabitants are. As for the inner planes being the "source" of their respective elements, Therise is correct, they were the ORIGINAL source, but NOT the "source" of EVERY fire, body of water, etc that exists. Once created, they became separate, and the Prime and everything in it exists with OR without them. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2013 : 15:40:48
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| The undead are generally closest to the concept of True Death (Dustmen from Planescape), that's why they are unnatural, something that is close to escaping this multiverse, in a gnostic way. |
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xaviera
Learned Scribe
Canada
149 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2013 : 15:49:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
That fire doesn't stem DIRECTLY from the plane, which is precisely the point. It's not naturally connected to it other than as the "ultimate source" of fire as an element. It exists independently of the plane itself. It has its own point of ignition, its own "life" and fuel. It exists not BECAUSE the plane exists, but because something caused it and feeds it.
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
There's the widespread perception that undead are unnatural or against nature. I can understand this viewpoint in many cases but what about spontaneously spawned undead?
In the realms at least, undead can naturally spring from existence in areas of concentrated evil , or negativity. Well couldn't this be seen as an act of nature? [...]
If growth and life are a part of nature why not death decay and the quasi state in between, undeath?
You can view the elemental planes as similar to Platonic ideals, in the sense that they are the 'pure' element and that the Prime Material is made up of reflections or shadows of them. (I think something along these lines is probably the basis for the original view of the elemental planes as surrounding the Prime - the material of which the Prime is made partakes of the energies of the various elemental planes to varying degrees.) If you adopt this position, then the arrangement of para-elemental planes and other 'elements' such as positive, negative, light and dark suggests a similar 'reflection' onto the Prime. Thus, everything on the Prime partakes, distantly and indirectly, of the energies of the Elemental planes.
I played a druid once who was unpopular for her view that certain undead, at least, were part of the 'natural' cycle (in a world where magic exists). So, certain humans could become undead by being evil in life or by being unable to complete certain goals. Areas where certain negative influences congregated (either naturally or as a result of human or divine acts) tend to produce undead - rough analogies in our world might be the La Brea tar sands that trapped so many prehistoric animals and preserved them, or the natural fission reactor that formed in a uranium deposit in Gabon, Africa. Occasionally a human might be infected by a disease such as vampirism or lycanthropy. She was understandably unpopular in her Druid Circle for these beliefs.
Now, just because some undead might arise 'naturally', i.e. out of the interaction of certain forces without the purposeful agency of humans, doesn't mean they aren't often harmful and shouldn't be destroyed. Certainly forest fires are devastating, but they also have positive effects on the environment (though I tend to think of undead more like earthquakes, i.e. they are more like 'random events' and less a part of the normal cycle of life). Diseases and plagues are 'natural'. However, a creature that goes about spreading disease or creating more of its kind in an unchecked manner upsets the balance and needs to be dealt with. And just as humans have harnessed natural phenomena for their own ends, so too could those in magical worlds take advantage of the existence of undead for their own purposes.
In conclusion, I don't think that a view of certain undead as 'natural' is too far out of line if you accept the idea of the Elemental planes as Ideals that contribute to the existence of the Prime.
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Writings on Sharess: Thoughts & Prayers by Xaviera ~ High Priestess of Sharess |
Edited by - xaviera on 03 Sep 2013 15:51:36 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2392 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2013 : 18:30:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Mirtek
Mindless undead used to be neural in earlier editions
I think that‘s a consequence of the nine-spoked alignment system, not an accurate property of the undead themselves. Most undead with any semblance or echo of self-will were described as hungry, angry, hateful of all living things.
Most undead don't have any semblance or echo of self-will.
And mindless undead not under anyone's control typically attack adventurers, specifically because they have nothing better to do than following their last commands and undead are frequently used as guards... while adventurers are people who boldly go where no one gone for 200 years, to glom onto things that would be better off left unglommed for another 200. 
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Elemental creatures pouring in through the a forest fire from the plane of fire are not natural, they'd be an invasive species that could easily destroy an ecosystem on the Material Plane. On the Element Plane of fire they are natural, on the material plane they don't belong.
(curling into a ball and shivering) There are rabbits. They are so... unnatural!  quote:
This does not apply to most sentient creatures just creatures of animal intelligence.
Why? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2013 : 20:27:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Elemental creatures pouring in through the a forest fire from the plane of fire are not natural,
Except that this happens naturally
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
they'd be an invasive species that could easily destroy an ecosystem on the Material Plane.
Which is also perfectly natural. Happens all the time in nature. While nowadays humanity is the prefered provider of transport history is full of cases where invasive species wandered in totally natural and turned whole ecosystems upside down (and sometimes die out themselves in the end since they were just too good for their own good in their newly conquered habitat).
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
On the Element Plane of fire they are natural, on the material plane they don't belong.
You mean like all the new species that wandered around when the landbridge between north and south america closed some million years ago and caused many species to go extinct were not natural?
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
This does not apply to most sentient creatures just creatures of animal intelligence.
Creatures of animal intelligence migrate all the time to new areas when the opportunity arised
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
The inner planes have nothing whatsoever to do with faith, belief, or gods. They simply exist.
Yes, they are more fundamental. The elemental plane of fire doesn't give a ### about who believes in fire, it exists and burns even if no one believes in it.
If the multiverse were ever to lose one of these fundamental building blocks, the prime would be in real trouble |
Edited by - Mirtek on 03 Sep 2013 20:31:17 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2013 : 23:30:15
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Jordanz: Baelnorn may not all be evil, but I think there‘s no arguing that they‘re unnatural. They are acutely aware of this fact, many eventually succumb to insanity because they‘ve forsaken the special connection to nature shared by elven species.
TBeholder:Mindless undead will often attack adventurers (or anyone else who approaches) regardless whether they‘ve received orders ... I think the average skelly or zombie has a sort of instinct to attack living creatures, they probably need to be specifically ordered to NOT attack if serving non-guard functions. Wights and ghasts and Ju-Ju Zombies and Skeletal Warriors and Spectres are clearly hostile to the living.
I‘ll try a more definitive argument ...
Undead, break the natural cycle of life/death. Specifically, they somehow bind the soul/whatever to some corporeal/incorporeal form, condemned to eternally remain in the world instead of gaining eternal rest and an afterlife in the larger cosmos. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2013 : 03:50:36
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Originally posted by Mirtek; "Except that this happens naturally."
You're confusing a (VERY rarely) "natural" OCCURANCE with the RESULT, which is FAR from natural. And even those "natural" rifts MUST have a cataclysmic cause to appear, which puts the resulting influx of such creatures even further from the natural order of the Prime. In NO WAY is a fire elemental either native to or natural on the Prime. It's very presence throws its local ecology and environment into a VERY unnatural state of chaos.
"Which is also perfectly natural. Happens all the time in nature. While nowadays humanity is the prefered provider of transport history is full of cases where invasive species wandered in totally natural and turned whole ecosystems upside down (and sometimes die out themselves in the end since they were just too good for their own good in their newly conquered habitat)."
Again, confusing the actions and consequences of a naturally occurring species with those of one that has NO place in the new environment is a mistake. Rabbits or other naturally occurring "invasive" species do NOT compare to the effects that would be produced by the presence of creatures of pure elemental force! These are forces of the cosmos as much as they are "living" creatures, and cause chaos and destruction by their very presence on the Prime. The have NO place in the natural order of most worlds- they do not create, renew, or add ANYTHING to the environment, nor do they procreate or have any other natural function of a living organism of the Prime. They are as unnatural to it as undead would be. And undead are also mostly destructive creatures with no value in the environment- with VERY few exceptions, which are all voluntary states assumed in order to protect something.
"You mean like all the new species that wandered around when the landbridge between north and south america closed some million years ago and caused many species to go extinct were not natural?"
Again, there is a difference between an invasive species, and a completely FOREIGN element in the environment. (If you'll pardon the pun.) Those invasive species you describe are ALREADY part of the Prime's ecology, even if they migrate to a new area where they are not native. Elementals and other such creatures are NOT. It's apples and oranges- one simply CANNOT compare the two.
"Creatures of animal intelligence migrate all the time to new areas when the opportunity arises"
Such migrations occur in response to a physical stimulus that triggers the instinct, and animal migrations follow REGULAR routes and are predictable and orderly within their habitats. An elemental or undead passing through a portal or accidental rip between planes is NOT a natural migration!
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2013 : 04:31:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
The inner planes have nothing whatsoever to do with faith, belief, or gods. They simply exist.
Yes, they are more fundamental.
Originally, not presently. Understand the difference.
quote:
If the multiverse were ever to lose one of these fundamental building blocks, the prime would be in real trouble
No, they would not. Now, the elemental planes are separate, distinct. You are confusing "original source material" with "lynchpins of reality" or somesuch belief.
If the elements in the Prime were still deeply connected to some kind of "lynchpins of reality" in the E-planes, then everything would have been blenderized when the Elemental planes were spellplagued and became the Elemental Chaos.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2392 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2013 : 04:50:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
The inner planes have nothing whatsoever to do with faith, belief, or gods. They simply exist.
Yes, they are more fundamental. The elemental plane of fire doesn't give a ### about who believes in fire, it exists and burns even if no one believes in it. If the multiverse were ever to lose one of these fundamental building blocks, the prime would be in real trouble
And now, let's move to quasielemental planes. And then?..
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Mindless undead will often attack adventurers (or anyone else who approaches) regardless whether they‘ve received orders ... I think the average skelly or zombie has a sort of instinct to attack living creatures, they probably need to be specifically ordered to NOT attack if serving non-guard functions.
Why? Where this comes from? My summary above was more or less from "REF5: Lords of Darkness". Which also simply makes sense - spells obviously leave them in a "waiting for orders" state.
But this applies to animation by spell, of course. Spontaneous animation is mostly unpredictable and corpses may go with anything at all, consequently activities may vary from just standing there and moaning or gnashing teeth, to killing everyone, to saving everyone from drowning, to mucking around meaninglessly in an endless replay loop much like phantoms.
quote:
Wights and ghasts and Ju-Ju Zombies and Skeletal Warriors and Spectres are clearly hostile to the living.
Skeleton warriors don't seem to give a jack about the living, unless commanded to, or the living happens to stand between a skeleton warrior and corresponding remote control hoop.
quote:
I‘ll try a more definitive argument ...
Undead, break the natural cycle of life/death. Specifically, they somehow bind the soul/whatever to some corporeal/incorporeal form
And mindless undead?.. quote:
condemned to eternally remain in the world instead of gaining eternal rest and an afterlife in the larger cosmos.
You're making it ridiculous. "Guys, guys... I don't feel all that condemned..." "No, don't be shy..."   |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2013 : 19:34:07
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
condemned to eternally remain in the world instead of gaining eternal rest and an afterlife in the larger cosmos.
You're making it ridiculous. "Guys, guys... I don't feel all that condemned..." "No, don't be shy..."
Or, "Whatchoo talkin' bout, Dawg? Why I gotta be 'condemned'? Why I can't just be 'on permanent vacation'?" |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2013 : 23:12:48
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| Well, if my arguments will be flamboyantly dismissed without any real consideration, then I offer only this; undead in D&D are an abomination against nature simply because it is stated, categorically and often, in D&D game rules and FR canon. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Why are undead perceived as "unnatural"
