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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 15:53:13
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I want both of these back, in some form.
Perhaps neither was destroyed as originally thought. What if both, at different times, were sucked over to Abeir instead of being destroyed?
No reason to have them utterly destroyed by Spellplague when Abeir is handy and the walls between realities were thinned.
I mean, the only way we know about Tymanther is that it was actually a populated mass of land that was "exchanged"... so what if Lantan and Halruaa were swapped with boring wastelands from Abeir?
And with the sundering, they can now swap right back.
Right? 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 16:26:00
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| I´d love to see a return of Lantan, the gnomes need a home! |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 16:52:41
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| Bring back the Realms, period. Undo the horrid Spellplague. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 17:19:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I want both of these back, in some form.
Perhaps neither was destroyed as originally thought. What if both, at different times, were sucked over to Abeir instead of being destroyed?
No reason to have them utterly destroyed by Spellplague when Abeir is handy and the walls between realities were thinned.
I mean, the only way we know about Tymanther is that it was actually a populated mass of land that was "exchanged"... so what if Lantan and Halruaa were swapped with boring wastelands from Abeir?
And with the sundering, they can now swap right back.
Right?
I agree with this, even tho I'm not fond of the ''Ao snaps fingers and stuff happens'' approach. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 17:19:50
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| I've been puzzled about Halruaa since we were first told it blew up... The force of the detonation rolling over a mountain range and back down to destroy a land bridge didn't make sense to me, especially when we later found out that Halruaa was relatively intact. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 17:40:53
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I figure that if they're going to keep Abeir and all that 4E stuff as history... they might as well take full advantage of it for some serious, significant and good restoration purposes.
In another thread, I was joking that the real Lantan might be hidden under a mechano-magical cloaking field. Maybe it didn't disappear at all, but the clever little gnomes have been protecting themselves with a Gond-inspired device similar to a mythal or mythallar. The island we currently think is Lantan may just be a random chunk of Abeir that got ported over, nearby to the real Lantan.
As for Halruaa, I say it swapped with a large, empty tract of land on Abeir. And sitting on Abeir for 100-ish years, the Halruaans would have ventured out and explored Abeir, perhaps studying the magical nature of the world collision itself. When Halruaa finally swaps back to Toril, they could have all sorts of interesting new magical studies on Abeirran magic, a really good understanding of Weave vs. non-Weave magic, and who knows what else?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 19:16:18
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Yes bring them both back...both were rather unique to the Realms as cultures go.
The idea of Halruaan's surviving on Abeir is solid IMO. Not so sure about the mech-mythallar but whatever works is fine with me. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 20:40:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Bring back the Realms, period. Undo the horrid Spellplague.
They are doing just that, on both counts. They aren't rebooting, or making it so the 'Plague never happened, but they ARE bringing our beloved Toril back, The Way It Used To Be. Geographically, at least, we will get what we have been asking for. Whether they restore the Realms in spirit as well as body remains to be seen. I look at it this way:
If Therise can give a Sundering book a glowing review, that says to me that there is indeed something to be positive about. This is not, incidentally, a swipe at her, far from it. I have often not bothered to post my thoughts on 4th Edition, because she frequently beat me to the punch, said exactly what I would have, and nine times out of ten said it far better than I could have.
So, unsurprisingly, you may add my voice to those who are asking for Halruaa and Lantan back, and I would not be particularly choosy how they did it. And Nimbral, if anyone would also advocate for that. The ruin of these lands was the one singular event that made absolutely zero sense to me. If Ao can move mountains (literally), this should be like chewing gum for him.
- OMH |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 20:42:34
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*advocates for Nimbral to make the old man happy*  |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 20:45:32
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| diddo on Nimbral, yet another culture unique to the Realms that was blasted for no reason. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 20:46:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
*advocates for Nimbral to make the old man happy*
Why, thank you, young man. 
Such fine upstanding scribes we have in the Keep these days. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2013 : 21:49:07
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I think this topic lends itself to the idea that parts of the FRCG are going to have to be retconned.
Because much of the FRCG was written bluntly, e.g. "this place is this way" or "these deities were all really this diety, and this fact was revealed to mortals" without any sense of mystery or uncertainty thrown in, I wonder if retconning isn't unavoidable in order to achieve a reset.
I like the idea of Lantan and/or Halruaa having found their way to Abeir, but this should not be the sum total of the explanation.
Perhaps some Lantanar return from a huge submarine that's just surfaced after the Sundering and other Halruaans return from a demiplane of Azuth's creation (a last, desperate act before his fall). Or perhaps Azuth had a hand in transferring the Halruaan population to Abeir, but he couldn't accomplish his main goal of moving the entire land mass, which led to Halruaa's physical destruction and left its' people scattered on Abeir.
I supposed what I'm getting at is that I want a better story. I want an explanation that accomplishes the transition to 5E by better explaining what happened in 4E. Which is to say a retcon isn't always a retcon if it's a much better and more interesting explanation that fits within the established framework of the setting.
Because neither Halruaa or Lantan are places where I've ever set my Realms campaigns in, much less played there in someone else's game, I'd like it if some attention was given to making these places more accessible. Give me a spark or something...even if it's a taste of Abeir that both places have brought back with them.
But yeah, bring them back. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 00:14:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I think this topic lends itself to the idea that parts of the FRCG are going to have to be retconned.
Who mentioned a retcon? You're the first.
quote:
Because much of the FRCG was written bluntly, e.g. "this place is this way" or "these deities were all really this diety, and this fact was revealed to mortals" without any sense of mystery or uncertainty thrown in, I wonder if retconning isn't unavoidable in order to achieve a reset.
There's no reason to have a retcon with Lantan, Halruaa, or even Nimbral.
A cursory glance at the 4E FRCG entries for Halruaa and the Nelanther Isles largely leaves what happened completely open to interpretation. There are some rusting clockwork devices littering the ocean floor around one island presumed to be Lantan. There are minimal remaining features of prior civilization in Halruaa except for some odd, twisted magical phenomena and plaguelands, plus a lot of ruined countryside filled with mud and the like. And Nimbral is just completely missing from the ocean.
It's not a retcon if an alternate explanation is offered for what happened to these areas. If we get these places back by saying that scholars were wrong and these regions also popped over to Abeir, that's more than good enough of a story for me.
quote:
I supposed what I'm getting at is that I want a better story.
Well that's rich, coming from you.
Mod Edit: A portion of this post has been temporarily removed -- pending a review for potential breach of the site's Code of Conduct. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - The Sage on 11 Aug 2013 16:27:04 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 00:42:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I want both of these back, in some form.
I too as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Perhaps neither was destroyed as originally thought. What if both, at different times, were sucked over to Abeir instead of being destroyed?
Well Lantan was said to have been swept up by the sea. There are a LOT of way to explain their still existance. I, for one, have been using Lantan in my 4E Realms as a semi/mostly-submerged Atlantis-esque Land where they've been experimenting with mechanics, aquatic life, and magic to create some truely awe-inspiring things. Yes, it does take from both Disney's Atlantis and the video game Bioshock but I really enjoyed both to strong degrees. To me, it makes sense in keeping the believe that they've been "swept away" yet remain a strong presence in the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
No reason to have them utterly destroyed by Spellplague when Abeir is handy and the walls between realities were thinned.
I mean, the only way we know about Tymanther is that it was actually a populated mass of land that was "exchanged"... so what if Lantan and Halruaa were swapped with boring wastelands from Abeir?
And with the sundering, they can now swap right back.
Right?
As for Halruaa, it's another matter. It's plain as day on the map that it's still there, just horribly shaken by the events of the Spellplague. Personally, I'd like to see some strong magic-states arise from the ashes to overcome the devestation of the Spellplague and work to make a stronger nation. Imagine that they, as a people, overcame many of the spellplagued obsticles and harness that inert power and then to have those "curses" lifted (with the advent of the Sundering) and retain all their powers that they, as a nation, have honed in the last century. That, IMO, would make for a pretty poweful and impressive nation of peoples and possibly even STRONGER than those who came before.
Obviously, this is all just speculation and conjecture but I like working with established lore. Take from it what you will.
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Edited by - Diffan on 11 Aug 2013 00:48:38 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 01:28:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Well Lantan was said to have been swept up by the sea. There are a LOT of way to explain their still existance. I, for one, have been using Lantan in my 4E Realms as a semi/mostly-submerged Atlantis-esque Land where they've been experimenting with mechanics, aquatic life, and magic to create some truely awe-inspiring things. Yes, it does take from both Disney's Atlantis and the video game Bioshock but I really enjoyed both to strong degrees. To me, it makes sense in keeping the believe that they've been "swept away" yet remain a strong presence in the Realms.
I agree, there are a lot of different routes they could take in saving Lantan. And this underwater Atlantis-style approach is something I could live with. Perhaps it was the open-air community that was "swept away" in entirety, but this underwater city (which was secret and already there) survived because of Gond-inspired technology.
Alternatively, I'd be equally happy if they just popped it over to Abeir and brought it back. They'd have that 100 years or so of exposure to Abeir, which could even enhance their technology.
quote:
As for Halruaa, it's another matter. It's plain as day on the map that it's still there, just horribly shaken by the events of the Spellplague.
Certainly, there are many specific locations that got torched and are present as oddities or strange plague-wrought ruins. But I would not be at all against the idea of just having most of Halruaa transposed to Abeir and able to be brought back as the worlds "move apart" in 5E.
quote:
Personally, I'd like to see some strong magic-states arise from the ashes to overcome the devestation of the Spellplague and work to make a stronger nation. Imagine that they, as a people, overcame many of the spellplagued obsticles and harness that inert power and then to have those "curses" lifted (with the advent of the Sundering) and retain all their powers that they, as a nation, have honed in the last century. That, IMO, would make for a pretty poweful and impressive nation of peoples and possibly even STRONGER than those who came before.
I definitely understand the appeal of having a "it's rebuilt even stronger" narrative. But that was sort of their story previously. They had rebuilt into a relatively peaceful mageocracy after the devastation that created Anauroch so long ago, minus all the arrogance that Shade still displays.
Personally, I just think it would be a lot better to say that they managed to "ride over" to Abeir because Mystra (or something) gave them a warning. One way that they could do this - we know that Halruaa was in communication with Nimbral for years before the spellplague. They had ties to Nimbral culturally as well. I don't think it would be a retcon or really even a stretch to say that both Halruaa and Nimbral knew something seriously bad was about to happen and they needed to safeguard their cities.
Perhaps with Nimbral, they developed a pre-Weave-magic method (they are Netheril inheritors, after all) of raising defensive mythallar-like devices in most of their cities. They did not know with 100% assurance that these would weather the storm, so they couldn't tell the general populace. And they worked, but it pulled each of the cities (and Nimbral in its entirety) over into Abeir as the spellplague devastated the land. And since they're in Abeir, they can come back.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 11 Aug 2013 01:32:27 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 02:38:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I´d love to see a return of Lantan, the gnomes need a home!
There weren't many gnomes in Lantan to begin with.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 03:06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I´d love to see a return of Lantan, the gnomes need a home!
There weren't many gnomes in Lantan to begin with.
-- George Krashos
Indeed.
As I've said many-a-time before, despite all the apparent gnomish-ness... Lantan still has a notable and significant human presence, who are mostly quite intuitive and capable of innovative technogical design on their own as members of Gond's faithful. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 03:11:20
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As for the scroll's topic, I'd suspect that it will not be simply a matter of "bringing back Halruaa and Lantan." The destruction and loss both these lands endured, seems written into the Realms firmament.
But, at the same time, I'd assume that doesn't automatically mean that some version of these two realms, cannot be brought into the 5e Realms.
As I recall, Lantan was "mostly" destroyed by the great tsunamis that inundated the island, after the shifting of the continents. When the region emerged from the waters, the majority of its people and technology, as such, were gone. The island still exists, but 'tis greatly reduced in size.
To bring back the island, it could be as easy as having explorers eventually discover [given the disruption of the Spellplague and subsequent chaos impacting on overall shipping throughout the region] that much more of Lantan emerged intact, than was previously thought. Both the gnomes and humans of Lantan are an inventive sort, so I wouldn't automatically assume that they can't or won't re-settle the island, nor deny any attempts at restructuring their cities and towns to take advantage of the altered landscape.
...
I'd have to think a little more on how to return Halruaa to the stage. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 07:16:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Who mentioned a retcon? You're the first.
Yes, for the reasons I stated.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
A cursory glance at the 4E FRCG entries for Halruaa and the Nelanther Isles largely leaves what happened completely open to interpretation.
Not really. As I wrote earlier, the wording (or rather, the point of view) in the FRCG isn’t that of a scholar. It’s very textbook-like write-up that leaves a strong impression that neither Halruaa or Lantan are somewhere else or that anyone beyond a smattering of individuals survived.
But then that was the point.
I think you’re right inasmuch as there are outs for the current writing team to use—and I hope they do. Reducing the omniscient perspective in the FRCG to that of a scholarly, in-Faerun point of view is a good first step.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
If we get these places back by saying that scholars were wrong and these regions also popped over to Abeir, that's more than good enough of a story for me.
Not for me and nor, I trust, for those with a deep interest in those two places. I think they should do more by telling the story of what happened. Honor the places by giving us the skinny on how each survived and what their ‘time away’ was like.
Much of the 4E FRCG was abrupt. It didn’t deliver information nicely. That’s why people used terms like “slap in the face.” *
Returning Halruaa and Lantan—if that’s what must happen—shouldn’t be as abrupt as “Hi, we’re back! Did you miss us?”
Flesh it out. Give us a bit more.
Regardless, it appears we’re in agreement, in that a better story is what we’re after.
*For example, the "Lantan's Rest" sidebar on page 162 of the FRCS states matter of factly, "the island land was nearly gone. All its machines, its technology, and its people were drowned." |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 11 Aug 2013 10:49:49 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 07:31:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Who mentioned a retcon? You're the first.
Yes, for the reasons I stated.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
A cursory glance at the 4E FRCG entries for Halruaa and the Nelanther Isles largely leaves what happened completely open to interpretation.
Not really. As I wrote earlier, the wording (or rather, the point of view) in the FRCG isn’t that of a scholar. It’s very textbook-like write-up that leaves a strong impression that neither Halruaa or Lantan are somewhere else or that anyone beyond a smattering of individuals survived.
But then that was the point.
I think you’re right inasmuch as there are outs for the current writing team to use—and I hope they do. Reducing the omniscient perspective in the FRCG to that of a scholarly, in-Faerun point of view is a good first step.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
If we get these places back by saying that scholars were wrong and these regions also popped over to Abeir, that's more than good enough of a story for me.
Not for me and nor, I trust, for those with a deep interest in those two places. I think they should do more by telling the story of what happened. Honor the places by giving us the skinny on how each survived and what their ‘time away’ was like.
Much of the 4E FRCG was abrupt. It didn’t deliver information nicely. That’s why people used terms like “slap in the face.”
Returning Halruaa and Lantan—if that’s what must happen—shouldn’t be as abrupt as “Hi, we’re back! Did you miss us?”
Flesh it out. Give us a bit more.
Regardless, it appears we’re in agreement, in that a better story is what we’re after.
Where I will agree I want a better story as you do, I have to add I am really hoping for all traces of Abeir to be gone. I really think Abeir was a poor decision, placing a new campaign setting within an established one.
This does not mean I want 4e fans to be rid of dragonborn, or anything like that. I simply think Abeir did not belong. I will accept it as history, for my purposes anyway it is fitting in a story.
I want Halruaa back, but I would much rather it came back without any Abeir Baggage. Suspended in time, or a miracle bringing it back would be my preference over it bringing any trace of Abeir.
Yes I want a good story, but I just think Abeir is NOT the Forgotten Realms. I can accept the spellplague realms, but Abeir indeed was another campaign setting entirely, placed there to put everyone on an even footing with lore.
I am willing to accept Dragonborn having a place in the realms, and the Genasi have been part of the realms since 2000, but I have zero interest in their lands of Akanul and Tyrmanther. I want those to go farther away than a Galaxy Far Far Away. Abeir and the exchanges were the hardest change for me to swallow after the time line jump. I can get over the time line jump. I cannot get over Abeir polluting Toril.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 07:36:49
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And just to be clear, I do not dislike Abeir because it was new. IF they pulled a trick like a portal town from Planescape switching into Faerun that would bother me just as much. If they replaced Zhentil Keep with the City of the Greyhawk I would be jsut as much opposed.
Keep the campaign settings separate. Let some of them act like bridges; planescape and spelljammer for example. Give Abeir its own book. But please don't let it influence the FR again.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 08:01:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Where I will agree I want a better story as you do, I have to add I am really hoping for all traces of Abeir to be gone.
Something tells me you’re not alone in that sentiment.
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I really think Abeir was a poor decision, placing a new campaign setting within an established one.
Hindisght is 20/20, but if they had it to do all over again I think it would have been better to draw on the Realms’ connections to many other worlds—and so sprinkle in places and populations from the multiverse—and not just make up one whole world and run it right smack into Faerûn.
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Give Abeir its own book.
From your mouth to God's ears.  Such a book is way overdue, especially since coverage of Laerakond was pretty light.
+++++++++++
Regarding Halruaa-via-Abeir: if you (generic ‘you’; not any particular Scribe) step away for a moment from any strong feelings you might have on the issue of Abeir and just look at the idea of it being Halruaa’s salvation, does saying Halruaa (or at least its people) spent a century in Abeir without influence or major change make any sense? Is it strong, story-wise?
I don’t think you can say that.
The key hurdle for any writer (or rather, writing team) that’s contemplating using Abeir as an out for Halruaa is going to be in embracing that century-plus of time away while still delivering a Halruaa that’s solely interesting in re-establishing itself in the Realms.*
But first they’re going to have to answer the question of whether or not to include Abeir influences in the 5E Realms Campaign Book. And if yes, how much is safe?
*I think the stuff about the deities believing they need worshippers to cement their positions in the divine order that I’ve been reading vis-à-vis Ao’s re-forging of the Tablets of Fate will have something to do with both Azuth’s—and Halruaa’s—return.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 11 Aug 2013 08:03:29 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 08:13:56
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I want Halruaa back, but please, not in the way they brought back Imaskar in 4E. Their return doesn’t have to be as “big” as Shade’s, and they need not have to appear stronger than before. They were already strong to begin with. Didn’t Ed mention it’s foolhardy for any nation to attempt to invade Halruaa? (Not in those exact words, but something along that line.)
I wouldn’t count on the swapping of lands in Abeir either. I think it’s so used up. I’d rather see something new, something original, something never been done before. And with the good creative team at the helm, they can pull it off without breaking sweat. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 11:00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wouldn’t count on the swapping of lands in Abeir either. I think it’s so used up. I’d rather see something new, something original, something never been done before. And with the good creative team at the helm, they can pull it off without breaking sweat.
Agreed. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 12:13:40
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I´d love to see a return of Lantan, the gnomes need a home!
There weren't many gnomes in Lantan to begin with.
-- George Krashos
Yet people think of Lantan as the homeland of the gnomes when they speak of it. All the gnomish-ness as Sage said gives that impression and i said it more in a nostalgic-comical way. Sadly we are not given population numbers for it and therefore i can´t make a statement if it has the largest number of gnomes in the realms or some other place. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 12:55:27
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Halruaa YES, but with some more focus on it, and perhaps somehow bring it closer to the 'center of things' (not IN the center - just outside the main campaign area). The only thing I really didn't like about it before was the distance.
As for Lantan, I could take it or leave it. If they actually DO something with it this time out, then fine. But 'same old Lantan' = 'dull as dirt' to me. Don't include stuff you never plan to flesh-out. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 13:05:03
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| I would think Nimbral could be easily restored. The campaign guide hints that Nimbral may not be gone, just hidden by illusion. Since the Nimbrese are/were supposed to be good at illusion/enchantment type magic, this could also be a refuge for the gnomes. It wouldn't be hard to concoct the story that the gnomes fled the wreck of Lantan and were taken in by the Nimbrese. Just my 2 cents. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 13:46:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Yes, for the reasons I stated.
Mentioning "retcons" isn't a good thing to do, however. Retcon is a volatile word for many people - particularly when we are not in need of any actual retcons in this matter.
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Not really. As I wrote earlier, the wording (or rather, the point of view) in the FRCG isn’t that of a scholar. It’s very textbook-like write-up that leaves a strong impression that neither Halruaa or Lantan are somewhere else or that anyone beyond a smattering of individuals survived.
This is completely irrelevant. What we know now is this: things have been written in prior campaign guides that have been invalidated by re-explanation in later guides, regardless of their original phrasing. Once a campaign guide becomes "prior edition" it can no longer be looked at with the same level of certainty. All prior guides become, to some degree, apocryphal with respect to "you should see things this way" sorts of statements.
The certainly of omniscient, 3rd person narrative died with 4E's guide, and to be honest we don't need that back.
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Much of the 4E FRCG was abrupt. It didn't deliver information nicely. That’s why people used terms like "slap in the face." *
Returning Halruaa and Lantan—if that's what must happen—shouldn't be as abrupt as "Hi, we’re back! Did you miss us?"
Flesh it out. Give us a bit more.
What's your goal here? To remind people that they were slapped in the face and stir the pot in the forums?
No one here wants "less story" or really poorly crafted story, as you seem to be suggesting. Everyone would prefer to have deeply detailed explanations for everything that happens in the Realms, particularly for places and things that are being toned down (or outright reverted) when it comes to the amount of 4E changes injected into them.
But not everything is going to get a complete, detailed re-treatment explaining what happened in the transition. Space limitations are involved, and this "Sundering" is going to unfold -at minimum- over the course of a year. We're not going to get deep detail on everything right away. Even you -must- be aware of this, so I'm going to ask nicely once again: don't stir the pot when it's not necessary.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 14:05:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Where I will agree I want a better story as you do, I have to add I am really hoping for all traces of Abeir to be gone. I really think Abeir was a poor decision, placing a new campaign setting within an established one.
This does not mean I want 4e fans to be rid of dragonborn, or anything like that. I simply think Abeir did not belong. I will accept it as history, for my purposes anyway it is fitting in a story.
I agree with all the above here, certainly. Abeir just needs to be completely separate and stand alone. And it's fine for some dragonborn to remain, just as a number of other beings from random places (Greyhawk, Krynn, and so on) have shown up to visit the Realms.
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I want Halruaa back, but I would much rather it came back without any Abeir Baggage. Suspended in time, or a miracle bringing it back would be my preference over it bringing any trace of Abeir.
That's a good point, anything shifted to Abeir for 100 years is going to be changed by that experience - even if it's just a marginal change. I rather like the idea of the Halruaans (and Nimbral) to have saved themselves with mythallar (or something similar), but with all the world-thinning that's supposed to be happening it doesn't have to be the case that they were shifted to Abeir.
Saving both Nimbral and a handful of Halruaan cities may be as simple as shunting them through time, or pushing them into the Astral Sea for those years - and perhaps they accomplished some interesting things while there.
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...and the Genasi have been part of the realms since 2000, but I have zero interest in their lands of Akanul and Tyrmanther.
Each of these, Akanul and Tymanther, definitely have some interesting qualities as adventure locations - but I completely agree: they're just not appropriate for being IN Toril as they are.
Akanul should either go back to Abeir or it needs to be moved to an extraplanar location. And Tymanther really just must go back to Abeir, it doesn't fit well with Toril at all. I'd much prefer Unther and Mulhorand to be restored - at least in part. Though I think restoring either of those won't be very easy, story-wise.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 16:37:07
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Here is what I'd do. The people of Halaruaa weren't killed for the most part of the Spellplague, rather they were transformed into pure spell energy. With the removal of the spell plague they are restored to flesh and blood. They remember what it was like to be pur magical energy and a minority secretly conspire to return to that state of being.
Lantan had an emergency spell prepared for a natural disaster, a flesh to stone spell for all those who live on the island. When AO draws the island back up from the depths a stone to flesh spell is triggered. The People of Lantan have no memories of the spellplague years obviously.
Nimbral,easiest of all, it was all an illusion!
To expand to Sulphor I'd have one of the Djinn forced to restore the city to life now that they have the power to grant wishes again. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 03:38:09
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Halruua yes, Lantan no.
bring back Lurien
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Bring back Halruaa and Lantan
