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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2536 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  01:48:14  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Right

Its not Elves I hate - its the way they are portrayed in FR. I never had a problem with Greyhawk Elves (and still don't).



Greyhawk was the originally D&D setting, right? I've heard of it, but I'm not familiar with it. Sadly, I did not grow up in a D&D-centered world. What is the difference between Greyhawk elves and FR elves?

I can see people's point; it was resettled rather fast, and, like many things in FR, unfortunately, the reasons haven't been addressed. Still, I think there is still plenty of danger in the surrounding area.

@The Masked Mage: elves are supposed to be patient, yes--as Ilsevele and Araevin 20 year betrothal indicates--but it doesn't mean they can't have "love at first sight", either. Personally, I liked Starbow, though I felt bad for Araevin that Ilsevele ditched him. It would have been interesting to see how the others reacted to her and Starbow marrying so fast. I think there was some intriguing things going on there. Starbow remembered walking alongside his former wife and her lover in Arvandor, and he thought he was happy "sharing" her, but he later realized that wasn't the case, and he realized he loved Ilesevele, and said to her "I know why I came back now". I don't remember the details, it's been awhile, but there could have been something going on there that we aren't privy to.

Probably not that big of a deal in the larger scheme of things, but I look out for those types of things sometimes, anyway.

Sweet water and light laughter
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sleyvas
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9658 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  01:59:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer

I really enjoyed Tam's war in The Haunted Lands. Does that count?
As I did. But I don't consider it an RSE (Realms-Shaking Event). There's only one realm involved (that's why it's called Civil War, right?); yes, Rashemen and Aglarond were involved, too, but just minimally.



How can it not be a RSE? The consequence of the civil war has direct implications for every nation in the region, and consequences that stretch far beyond them as well. Just imagine all those Red Wizards who weren't loyal to Tam, but were located in the numerous Enclaves scattered about Faerun. Virtually every one of those enclaves are now independent, and yet still enjoy the protection of the Three Laws of the Enclave.

So, now we have on the loose the largest number of renegade Red Wizards in the history of Thay. How many of Thay's magical and political secrets are now potentially at risk? What will these enclaves do? Who knows.

It's perfectly conceivable that a loose coalition of rebel enclaves could work together to seize control of a city. Imagine them, for example, coordinating to seize control of Raven's Bluff. Funds that they would otherwise be channeling back to Thay could be coordinated for such an effort. They already have a rather strong and successful enclave located there, so it's just a matter of extending it's influence (much easier if they have additional funds and resources for other enclaves). From there they could covertly eliminate key rivals, and put the right puppets loyal to them in the right places...

No longer bound by Thayan law to train only Mulan as Red Wizards, their ranks open up to virtually anyone who can use magic. What individual who wanted to study the Art wouldn't want a peek at the secret knowledge of the Red Wizards?

So, from there what do these enclaves do? Do they direct their resources toward conquering new territory, and establishing a new nation under their control? Or maybe they simply work to build up enough resources to retake Thay by force?

No matter the option they choose it'll have an impact on the politics and economics where there are Enclaves present. Even if they don't work together, they're now independent and their aims may no longer be simply about trade. They no longer have a superior looking over their shoulder, and now they're free to do whatever they want. This could potentially upset local and regional power structures.

Basically, wherever the hand of Thay has touched there will be some impact. It could be very minor, or it could be something major - we don't know. However, it would be a direct consequence of the civil war. Even if it is something small like Thayan circle magic starting to spread among non-Red Wizards; that's still a consequence and an implication.

When you basically have the collapse of an entire nation, it isn't exactly self-contained. It impacts EVERYONE who has any relationship with that nation; most directly it's neighbors, but things further afield can also be impacted to greater and lesser degrees.




I agree that Thay's fall would affect other countries. However, I don't agree that they'd seek to seize one of their hosting cities. That'd be a very stupid move, because every hosting city would then march on the other enclaves. Better to keep their enclaves, build a network up, then turn on a city that DOESN'T host them and which won't piss off any of their hosting cities. Now, what that target would be.... good question because all their enclaves are near places that could be a problem..... except down in the Shaar.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  02:52:16  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do most people not see The Fall of Netheril (aka Karsus' Folly) as an RSE?

I consider it one of the greatest of the entire history of the Forgotten Realms setting...even beyond the Time of Troubles; and easily the equal of the Spellplague. If it hadn't been for this single event:

Halruaa would not have come to be.

There would have been no Shades to return (since they would have only been one of MANY flying city-states!) and cause so much trouble.

Cormyr and many of the nations of the Swordcoast/North would never have come to be.

Very likely the elves of Cormanthor would have been destroyed or conquered...Cormyr wouldn't have even existed.

12th level Spells would still be "common" among the most powerful of magic users (a world full of severed mountain tops turned into flying city-states anyone?).

Forget about there being a Shoon Imperium...they would have been TROUNCED by the Netherese.

Mystra would never have been...and therefore not likely felt the need to create Chosen at all (which to me means that the likes of Elminster would never have been...he would have ended up a street-thief perhaps).

I mean...seriously; I don't think people even consider it an RSE simply because it came "before" the setting was even published maybe...but what else defined the area commonly played greater than this event?

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  04:33:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, if the 'shaking' happened before it became a published setting, then there really isn't any sort of 'nerd rage' we could logicaly generate toward it (because it was one of the things that was built into it from the beginning).

'Changes' to the setting only count when they happen while its a published setting, in the current timeframe. Nearly all popular RPG settings had a 'big bad' in the recent past (usually around "a century ago"), but thats not a 'world-shaking event', no matter how monolithic it was, because we didn't experience it first-hand.

So even though Karsus' Folly certainly counts as an RSE from a technical standpoint, it doesn't count as far as the fanbase should be concerned (usually).

For instance, If I read The Hobbit, I certainly couldn't start picking-apart how Smeagol found the one ring, because it happened long before the current story is written. If Tolkien's son decided to write a new ME novel and said that it turns out all hobbits are lizard people, then we can generate some decent 'nerd rage' over that (although thats more of a retcon, unless he did something that turned them into lizard people, which would certainly be an RSE, at least from their point-of-view).

So 'history' really doesn't count when discussing setting-changing events (because the setting didn't actually exist before it was changed.. which is a bit of a paradox).

On the other hand, I fully expect lots of people to argue the point, because thats pretty much all that happens around here. The only thing I think we can all agree on is that we can agree on nothing.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2013 04:34:16
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Jeremy Grenemyer
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Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  07:13:20  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heh. I won't argue that Karsus' fall is an RSE, I'll just tell you flat out that I think it's an RSE.

You make a good point (Markus) about the fact that how people interpret and react to RSEs does depend on whether they experience them or not.

That said, the Realms is rich because of its history. Dalor is wise to remind us that we shouldn't ignore that fact.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).

Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 28 Feb 2013 07:15:53
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  10:46:26  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The return of the archwizards, tough I didn't like the novels (includes the Twilight War).
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Aldrick
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909 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  14:56:59  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I agree that Thay's fall would affect other countries. However, I don't agree that they'd seek to seize one of their hosting cities. That'd be a very stupid move, because every hosting city would then march on the other enclaves. Better to keep their enclaves, build a network up, then turn on a city that DOESN'T host them and which won't piss off any of their hosting cities. Now, what that target would be.... good question because all their enclaves are near places that could be a problem..... except down in the Shaar.


I didn't mean to imply that they would violently overthrow the government of a city state. That would be incredibly stupid on their part, and very well may create the type of backlash that you describe. I envision them forming a loose allied network among themselves, and coordinating to subvert the government in a place that they have considerable influence already.

Wooly suggested Mulmaster, and I'm inclined to agree with his suggestion.

They would work by forming strategic quid pro quo alliances and arrangements with the various powers in the city, using bribes and pay offs as necessary. They'd play off existing rivalries, aiding covert assassinations of shared rivals quietly. Where necessary, they'd use their arcane abilities to 'make' people more agreeable to them, but of course it'd have to be done very subtly.

Over about the course of a decade they'd grow with more and more power and influence, until the city is independent in name only. They would basically become the puppet masters behind the government of the city, and they'd be able to work with impunity. Those who'd view the action from afar would simply view the government as corrupt, and see the Thayan's as taking advantage of that corruption to extend their influence and power over the city. Yet, that's more-or-less what everyone expects them to do anyway. This is how they wormed their way into cities in the first place, as it's not like the Red Wizards were ever popular outside of Thay.

That being said, I'm pretty sure as word got around that Thay had been basically decimated by civil war, at least some of the enclaves would have been sacked, looted, and razed - the citizens of the Enclave dragged out into the streets and lynched. Especially in places where Red Wizards are actively despised.

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Tyrant
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Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  16:43:47  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
That being said, I'm pretty sure as word got around that Thay had been basically decimated by civil war, at least some of the enclaves would have been sacked, looted, and razed - the citizens of the Enclave dragged out into the streets and lynched. Especially in places where Red Wizards are actively despised.


If they are so despised, how did they operate before the civil war if they could be overrun by mobs? I don't see that happening to more than 1 or 2, if that many. News of the fall of Thay (if that's how the outside views it, the downfall of the Zulkirs isn't the downfall of the country and I am sure most people who know of him have the good sense to fear Szass Tam) will spread among the Enclaves faster than among the general population because they will use magic to communicate. The forming of alliances and creation of escape plans (or the creation of new, non-going-back-to-Thay escape plans as the case may be) will be in the works long before news reaches very far across the continent. Adding to that, I don't see the Enclaves going down peacefully and I imagine any one of them is capable of taking a chunk of whatever city it sits in down with it, so I would suspect the civil authorities would try to stop the mobs or broker a non violent resolution. Alternatively, if the threat of retaliation from Thay is all that is holding back the mobs, why would they not fear retaliation from the Thayans in exile at the other Enclaves? The Red Wizards didn't suddenly become unable to unload destruction on their enemies because of a change in government back home.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  23:13:50  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
That being said, I'm pretty sure as word got around that Thay had been basically decimated by civil war, at least some of the enclaves would have been sacked, looted, and razed - the citizens of the Enclave dragged out into the streets and lynched. Especially in places where Red Wizards are actively despised.


If they are so despised, how did they operate before the civil war if they could be overrun by mobs? I don't see that happening to more than 1 or 2, if that many. News of the fall of Thay (if that's how the outside views it, the downfall of the Zulkirs isn't the downfall of the country and I am sure most people who know of him have the good sense to fear Szass Tam) will spread among the Enclaves faster than among the general population because they will use magic to communicate. The forming of alliances and creation of escape plans (or the creation of new, non-going-back-to-Thay escape plans as the case may be) will be in the works long before news reaches very far across the continent. Adding to that, I don't see the Enclaves going down peacefully and I imagine any one of them is capable of taking a chunk of whatever city it sits in down with it, so I would suspect the civil authorities would try to stop the mobs or broker a non violent resolution. Alternatively, if the threat of retaliation from Thay is all that is holding back the mobs, why would they not fear retaliation from the Thayans in exile at the other Enclaves? The Red Wizards didn't suddenly become unable to unload destruction on their enemies because of a change in government back home.


A number of different points.

First, the enclaves are fairly independent, and the reactions of those that run them will vary. Some will still oppose Tam no matter what, and these are the enclaves I see aligning themselves with each other. They have a common enemy to unite them. Others, likely had Red Wizards sitting out the civil war waiting to see who would win. After all, a civil war is a dangerous thing and you don't want to end up on the wrong side. So, those Red Wizards may be returning to Thay to pledge loyalty to Tam... what happens with them is anyone's guess. Next, you're going to have some enclaves who take the opportunity to strike off in an independent direction. They'll see no benefit siding with the rebel enclaves, and even if they do it'll be tangentially.

Second, in the immediate aftermath of the war there would be a period of chaos. What is the Enclave in City X doing? Where do they stand?

"Will they align with us?"

"I heard Y Red Wizard of Enclave Z returned to Thay to pledge his loyalty to Tam... no one has heard from him since then. Tell the others to not go, it's a trap."

"Enclave V is being threatened by the civil authorities to have the Three Laws revoked. He's attempting to sue for better terms of agreement. They've heard of events back home in Thay... should we send aid? Enclave V is opposed to our alliance!"

...on and on and on. The events and politics surrounding each individual enclave are unique, and events would play out accordingly.

Third, some Enclaves are located in places where Red Wizard's are really despised. The Red Wizard's usually got a foot hold with their Enclaves through bribing local ruling authorities, and making various deals and arrangements. The Enclaves primarily benefit those with wealth and power, as those are the only people who can really afford to buy magical items.

It's not like the Red Wizards have a good reputation. Most people regard them as slavers, and likely individuals who practice dark magic... maybe even consorting with demons, devils, and other such monsters. It's not like average Joe has the knowledge to know any different.

Fourth, there are some places where there are power groups arranged against the Enclaves - such as the Harpers. At least in my Realms, the Harpers would be behind some of those riots and lynchings. In other cases, the civilian authority may attempt to seize the Enclave in an attempt to confiscate its goods. I'm not saying this would be widespread, but it would have to happen at least a handful of them.

Why now, and not in the past? Well, if you had done it in the past then you're pretty much guaranteed reprisal by Thay. That's no longer an issue, as in the immediate aftermath of a civil war, they have bigger problems to deal with than the loss of one of their enclaves. It probably doesn't even make the list of the top one hundred things to be concerned about. Especially in light of the fact that at least some of them are rebelling.

Keep in mind, also, that the civil war had been going on for YEARS prior to the Spellplague. Anyone who has an Enclave located in their city is going to be intensely interested about such events in Thay, and you can bet groups like the Harpers are making the information known - and perhaps embellishing on it a great deal.

As well, it's not as if the enclaves are going to reveal where they stand to each other until after the war. They're in the position to hold things close to the chest until things are decided in Thay.
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Dark Wizard
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Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  23:40:29  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Markus is right on Karsus's Folly and the Fall of Netheril. It's a RSE by technicality, but far from it in actuality. A historical event is not an active "in your face" meta-plot event. A RSE occuring "in real time" offers gamers three options: ignore it, adapt it, or take it as is. Depending on the magnitude of the event, the fanbase diverges. There are times this can be good, but then again, sometimes they create more trouble and inconsistencies than they're worth.

A past calamity allows the passage of time and existing history in the setting to take into account the affect of the massive event. It is a built-in aspect of the world, and for the most part fans come into the setting with the past event as a feature, or even a setting defining pillar.

Any setting worth its print will give ample opportunities to explore the legacy of such events, and the Realms does. However, a great setting also provides even more opportunities to explore the setting outside of any singular event, and the Realms does this in spades.

The long term ramifications of recent RSEs have not been integrated as well as true historical events. Due to the complexity and lag time of publishing, it takes real time for the designers and writers to digest an event. We started to finally resolve the ToT and the Horde, but then we're inundated with a handful of consecutive large events. They may have impact, especially immediately, but nothing as extensive as they're billed to be or indeed should have given their scope. In my opinion, repeated use of the big event plot device leaves the setting with a certain frayed and tattered feel, and I don't mean that in a good way. It has the feel of something yanked and wore by too many hands to the point that I no longer have a clear sense of what the thing is anymore.

Going forward, I would like RSE to be redefined as "Region Stirring Event" and for WotC to take that term to heart, in tone and presentation. I see more sensible potential in something like the rise of the Sythillisian Empire and the Occupation of Unther than most of the events mentioned as RSEs in the OP.

None of the existing factions were entirely wiped out and they remain to fight the good fight, creating tension and conflict. There's no overuse of resurrected or returned Ancient Magical Empire (TM). No deities overtly or physically involved. No elves who retreated for a human generation only to return in force and wipe away one of the setting's most iconic adventuring locales, tonally if not actually. No rearranging of half the landmasses or a pseudo-retcon of races. Etc. Focus on mortal beings going about their ambitions, beliefs, delusions, and follies and triumphs. The stakes are high, but not cosmologically so.

Edited by - Dark Wizard on 28 Feb 2013 23:49:24
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  23:56:35  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't realize we were talking about Reality Shaking Events...I thought we were talking about REALMS RSE events. They are different...at least I thought.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Tyrant
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Posted - 01 Mar 2013 :  07:59:56  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
A number of different points.

First, the enclaves are fairly independent, and the reactions of those that run them will vary. Some will still oppose Tam no matter what, and these are the enclaves I see aligning themselves with each other. They have a common enemy to unite them. Others, likely had Red Wizards sitting out the civil war waiting to see who would win. After all, a civil war is a dangerous thing and you don't want to end up on the wrong side. So, those Red Wizards may be returning to Thay to pledge loyalty to Tam... what happens with them is anyone's guess. Next, you're going to have some enclaves who take the opportunity to strike off in an independent direction. They'll see no benefit siding with the rebel enclaves, and even if they do it'll be tangentially.

It's been a while since I read the trilogy, but I thought the battle lines were pretty clear once the actual civil war got under way. I don't see why it would be any different in the Enclaves beyond some Necromancers deciding to not support Tam and a random handful of non Necromancers siding with Tam. Other than that, I think everyone would know where everyone else stands based on their school of study.
quote:
Second, in the immediate aftermath of the war there would be a period of chaos. What is the Enclave in City X doing? Where do they stand?

"Will they align with us?"

"I heard Y Red Wizard of Enclave Z returned to Thay to pledge his loyalty to Tam... no one has heard from him since then. Tell the others to not go, it's a trap."

"Enclave V is being threatened by the civil authorities to have the Three Laws revoked. He's attempting to sue for better terms of agreement. They've heard of events back home in Thay... should we send aid? Enclave V is opposed to our alliance!"

...on and on and on. The events and politics surrounding each individual enclave are unique, and events would play out accordingly.


Sure there would be some chaos, but that is when evil usually knows to present a strong face. Peasants causing problems? Remind them why they feared the Red Wizards in the first place. I also believe anyone entrusted to run an Enclave has to be somewhat intelligent (game stats discussion given that INT is the key stat for Wizards aside) and they would realize quite qucikly that their only real hope lies in some form of alliance if for no other reason than to stand united against Tam. Their magic and gold didn't just suddenly disappear and I believe any remotely worthy leader would use both to secure their position while they build an alliance or while they infiltrate the local government to secure a regional power base.
quote:
Third, some Enclaves are located in places where Red Wizard's are really despised. The Red Wizard's usually got a foot hold with their Enclaves through bribing local ruling authorities, and making various deals and arrangements. The Enclaves primarily benefit those with wealth and power, as those are the only people who can really afford to buy magical items.

It's not like the Red Wizards have a good reputation. Most people regard them as slavers, and likely individuals who practice dark magic... maybe even consorting with demons, devils, and other such monsters. It's not like average Joe has the knowledge to know any different.

So why is average Joe, who we have established does not understand the Red Wizards and only fears them, suddenly decide to take up a pitchfork and go fight a group of people that commande forces beyond his comprehension on the say so of some other random guy that their homeland is embroiled in a civil war? What does average Joe stand to gain? How is he not scared off when the first person to get that crazy idea is brutally murdered by the Red Wizards?
quote:
Fourth, there are some places where there are power groups arranged against the Enclaves - such as the Harpers. At least in my Realms, the Harpers would be behind some of those riots and lynchings. In other cases, the civilian authority may attempt to seize the Enclave in an attempt to confiscate its goods. I'm not saying this would be widespread, but it would have to happen at least a handful of them.

Isn't it somewhere in here where the Harpers appear to fall off the map to the point that decades later they are still rebuilding? I don't see that force undoing the influence of many Enclaves. As for the civil authorities, why kill the Golden Goose if it can keep laying Golden Eggs? Storming an Enclave ensure those will be the last goods you get from them while simultaneously tempting fate and hoping that the Thayans don't destroy part of the city or murder you in your sleep. Also, I would think some of the Enclaves have a failsafe of some type similar to (though possibly not as powerful as) Arklem Greeth had in the Hosttower of the Arcane in Luskan to ensure that it's fall had consequences for those who brought it about.
quote:
Why now, and not in the past? Well, if you had done it in the past then you're pretty much guaranteed reprisal by Thay. That's no longer an issue, as in the immediate aftermath of a civil war, they have bigger problems to deal with than the loss of one of their enclaves. It probably doesn't even make the list of the top one hundred things to be concerned about. Especially in light of the fact that at least some of them are rebelling.

I woudn't be so sure about that. Mid civil war Tam found time and resources to send people to the other side of the continent to build an apparently completely unnecessary Dread Ring. If he can do that, how hard is it really going to be to send a few Red Wizards to raise hell? It's not like it would take batallions of them to get the job done. Just one, if it's the right one, could do it.
quote:
Keep in mind, also, that the civil war had been going on for YEARS prior to the Spellplague. Anyone who has an Enclave located in their city is going to be intensely interested about such events in Thay, and you can bet groups like the Harpers are making the information known - and perhaps embellishing on it a great deal.

Unless the Harpers main goal is to get people killed I don't see them rallying the mobs. The final tally will be a lot more civilians dead than Thayans. I think you are underestimating what a group of evil, and somewhat powerful, wizards will do when cornered and all hope of victory appears to be lost.
quote:
As well, it's not as if the enclaves are going to reveal where they stand to each other until after the war. They're in the position to hold things close to the chest until things are decided in Thay.


What's to hide? You were either with Tam or against him and it looked to me like if you weren't a Necromancer odds were pretty good you were against him.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest
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Aldrick
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909 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2013 :  13:06:37  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tyrant -

I won't refute any of your arguments. The fact of the matter is we're engaging in speculation. The issue is that we really don't know what happened to the Enclaves.

We can get lost in the weeds of the debate (and I don't mind doing that, really; as I enjoy the discussion). However, I realized as I was reading your response that both you and I overlooked something glaringly obvious.

We overlooked the impact the Spellplague had on the enclaves, magic items, and wizards.

Do we even have any idea how it impacted arcane magic users in the immediate aftermath of the Spellplague? We know that Tam was able to adjust quickly, but what about everyone else?
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2013 :  14:07:56  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Do most people not see The Fall of Netheril (aka Karsus' Folly) as an RSE?

I consider it one of the greatest of the entire history of the Forgotten Realms setting...even beyond the Time of Troubles; and easily the equal of the Spellplague. If it hadn't been for this single event:

Halruaa would not have come to be.

There would have been no Shades to return (since they would have only been one of MANY flying city-states!) and cause so much trouble.
I do consider it an RSE. How can we not, when it completely changed the very nature of spellcasting in the Realms?

I just hope though that more of the fallen enclaves would emerge and fly to the skies once more, and either join or oppose Shade (covertly or overtly). 'Tis one of the things I'm looking forward to in 5E.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2013 :  14:36:03  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

We overlooked the impact the Spellplague had on the enclaves, magic items, and wizards.

Do we even have any idea how it impacted arcane magic users in the immediate aftermath of the Spellplague? We know that Tam was able to adjust quickly, but what about everyone else?
Many of the zulkirs' talismans survived the brunt of the Spellplague, while some were rendered useless. Same thing might have happened to those baubles in the enclaves, or worse, or better. In other words, we don't know. But it's safe to assume not all of them were turned useless beyond repair, as they're in not stored in one place. Same thing can be said about the wizards that man the enclaves.

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Tyrant
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Posted - 01 Mar 2013 :  15:30:21  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Tyrant -

I won't refute any of your arguments. The fact of the matter is we're engaging in speculation. The issue is that we really don't know what happened to the Enclaves.

We can get lost in the weeds of the debate (and I don't mind doing that, really; as I enjoy the discussion). However, I realized as I was reading your response that both you and I overlooked something glaringly obvious.

We overlooked the impact the Spellplague had on the enclaves, magic items, and wizards.

Do we even have any idea how it impacted arcane magic users in the immediate aftermath of the Spellplague? We know that Tam was able to adjust quickly, but what about everyone else?


Yeah, I started to consider that a while after I wrote that. I think the aftermath of the Spellplague is the much better moment to take out the Enclaves as I think pure luck would have to render some of them virtually powerless either through magic item destruction/nullification or through the Red Wizards themselves either losing their abilities or being burned out (or whatever other random effects). I believe that is the greater moment of weakness for most of them. Some could wind up stronger (beneficial spellscars, magic items permanently bonded to them and able to be used at will, random increase in magical might, etc) and these would be the ones most likely to be left standing in my opinion.

After that, I think to survive you would see one of two types of groups of Enclaves emerge. One would continue to trade on the Red Wizard name and all that it implies, the other would try to distance themselves from the policies of the past and sever any appearance of connections to Thay (we were only following orders, the Necromancers back home were the really bad guys, etc) and try to take on an appearance of legitamate merchants. I could see this group (who may even be somewhat sincere) start taking on non-Mulan apprentices to show they are serious.

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GRYPHON
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Posted - 20 Mar 2013 :  18:36:02  Show Profile  Visit GRYPHON's Homepage Send GRYPHON a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Time of Troubles...
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KacyCrawford
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Posted - 23 Sep 2013 :  18:53:06  Show Profile Send KacyCrawford a Private Message  Reply with Quote
voted Abyssal Plague
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 23 Sep 2013 :  19:01:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KacyCrawford

voted Abyssal Plague



Did that one affect the Realms at all?

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Drustan Dwnhaedan
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Posted - 24 Sep 2013 :  08:41:35  Show Profile Send Drustan Dwnhaedan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I couldn't decide between the Time of Troubles or the Spellplague, so I flipped a coin (wound up voting for the ToT).

My least favorite RSE was the events of the LP trilogy, which is the only RSE to have an emotional effect on me (I never would have guessed a person's depression could be triggered by a work of fiction). Perhaps I took it so badly because it directly affected my own character, Drustan; he lost his wife (he married an Eilistraeen priestess of the Promenade at the end of my gaming group's last campaign), his goddess, and many friends and relatives all at once. (Even thinking about it still makes me angry and depressed. Sorry, Ravenheart, for not being more positive.)

Of the other RSE's, I either don't feel much of anything for, or don't know enough about them to provide a constructive opinion of them. (Heh, not that any of the opinions I've ever provided are constructive. There more like overly-emotional whining, really. Er, sorry. Again.)
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Dennis
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Posted - 24 Sep 2013 :  13:42:24  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Um, wait, LP is an RSE? What exactly did it shake?

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Ashe Ravenheart
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Posted - 24 Sep 2013 :  13:51:10  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Um, wait, LP is an RSE? What exactly did it shake?

We've discussed this elsewhere where RSE is a personal definition, as some events shook individual realms where it may not have shook others.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Drustan Dwnhaedan
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Posted - 24 Sep 2013 :  17:44:40  Show Profile Send Drustan Dwnhaedan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Um, wait, LP is an RSE? What exactly did it shake?



Actually, now that I've gotten some rest and thought about it, LP technically wasn't a RSE, just something that affected me and my character personally (and I'm apparently the only one so affected*). I was going to delete my original post, but it looks like it's too late, since people have actually commented on it. I apologize to everyone for inconveniencing them with my little rant (I'm really going to have to start thinking before I post anything).


*Okay, I realize I'm not, and apologize to my fellow Eilistraee fans (I must really like the taste of my feet, since I seem to keep putting them in my mouth).

Edited by - Drustan Dwnhaedan on 24 Sep 2013 21:27:16
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 24 Sep 2013 :  18:37:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Um, wait, LP is an RSE? What exactly did it shake?



Well, drow exist pretty much everywhere on Toril, and the Lady Penitent trilogy saw their pantheon get dramatically culled, and some drow turn back to green elves.

It may not have rearranged the landscape, but it affected a world-spanning race, and impacted the majority of them. Seems pretty reasonable to call it an RSE, to me.

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Ilmarinnen
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Posted - 25 Sep 2013 :  14:34:24  Show Profile Send Ilmarinnen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am still not sure if the Civil war of Thay should be classified as RSE, but it is definitely the most interesting one for me. I was surprised that it would attract so much attenion, but I was pleased to read your discussion. Most of your arguments are valid but I would like to add a bit.
Unfortunately CWoT is drastically underdescribed, partially because yers was mostly interested in activies of his main characters, but not in flow of war as a whole. The same concerning the fate of emigrants.

so... Let's look from outside
Before the war (Golden Age of Thay 1371-1374 (so short :(


Thay itself is an evil empire that constantly endangers neighbouring nations, but never managed to conqer a single one. So by iself it a medium threat.
Still it manages to creat a net of enclaves to sell Thayan export, buy what they need etc. Enclaves become a reliable source of magic items, also since they and their transportation are well protected, they become reliable bancs - to transfer money from one city to another, to send messages (that one is not afraid to be opened), even to send goods with their ships under their protection. So even those who hate Red Wizards mostly agree with usefulness of their net.
These enclaves all belong to the Guild of Foreign Trade. Thus whichever magic guild do mages in enclave belong, whatever their political opinions are, first of all they are the servants of GFT and its leader Samas Kul.

War 1375-1385


Since Samas Kul supports the zulkirat against the so-called "regent", enclaves have to support the side of zulkirat too (at least formally). They try to present the zulkirs in a good light, when asked, describing them as "heroes fighting an evil necromancer", telling about atrocities commited by Tam's army. They try to recruit mercenaries for the zulkirs' army, buy whatever needed resourses etc.
They can even kill their own necromancers to prove their loyalty to Kul, or by secret order.
Usefulness of the enclaves slightly diminshes, as economics of Thay crumbles in self-destructive conflict. They can not export as much as they did before, most of their magical production is consumed by war. Their defenses weaken too, since best crafters, war mages, warriors and war machines are summoned back to Thay.

Evacuation 1385


We know this story. Zulkirs order to prepare as many as possible ships to take as many as possible their servants and allies. They reach Alaor and Escalant, but they can not support so many refugees so tightly packed, so they slowly spread them between the enclaves. Some fall victims to living conditions aboard ships, pirates, crusaders and storms but most reach their destinations and have to call them home. At least for some time...

Emigration 1385-1479


Formally the enclaves are still united in GFT, but since they are no more mediators between the locals and Thay they have to survive on their own. Some are sacked by local. I imagine this rather than a mob with torches and pitchforks, but a decision of practical rulers to "use the opportunity". Some try to unterfere in local politics. Most still want to return home. Since most of them were on the side of zulkirs, they hate Tam, and all necromancers too. They attempt to gather forces for a crusade back into Thay. Some disenchanted in this, go into mercenary service (after all many of them are the veterans of 10 years of war) and are especially eager to fight necromancers wherever they found them.
It is interesting to note that in HL3 (Unholy, i guess) author states that zulkirs still control Escalant and Alaor islands. That's only 40 miles from the Thayan coast!!!
So we can imagine that the CWoT did never end in fact with unceasing blocade of its ports, raiding its shores and shipping. Definitely some emigrants may try to return, but I doubt that any enclave will openly declare its allegiance to regent with yet existing blockade.

*Generally, when we try to find parallels, the Thayan emigration has very much in common with the White emigration after 1920. So much nostalgie for what they've lost, and so different fates.
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