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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2013 :  13:48:13  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

No vote, and my "RSE" preference would be the return of Shade, the Shadowstorm, Shadow Weave, Shadowcetera. A new (evil!) player crowding the map and a measured dose of deific influence without resorting to sloppy (and repetitive) exploding of gods and continents. Thay and the Zulkirs and Old Szass Tammy interest me as well, but their grand aspirations are always thwarted and have little lasting effect on the Realms beyond troubling a handful of heroes within their local borders.

When I set this up, I had the Archwizards/Shade on the list, somewhere between getting the list together and creating the poll, I accidentally dropped it. My bad.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

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3240 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2013 :  13:56:54  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And, in case you were wondering, I built my list over the idea that there had to be at least 3 novels around the concept, it had to have the impact of it would be NEWS (i.e. Azoun IV dying would be talked about on the Moonshaes, etc.), and it was a BIG idea/change. I agree with MT that they don't talk enough about the past RSE's in the fiction, it's akin to us not talking about Pearl Harbor or 9/11 a few years later.

Now, I also included the Other option because I know that my method/definition is not everyone's. So, anything you think may be an RSE, vote for other and discuss the reasons why! (And I'm really beating myself up over forgetting to put Shade on the list.)

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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36779 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2013 :  15:32:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

No vote, and my "RSE" preference would be the return of Shade, the Shadowstorm, Shadow Weave, Shadowcetera. A new (evil!) player crowding the map and a measured dose of deific influence without resorting to sloppy (and repetitive) exploding of gods and continents. Thay and the Zulkirs and Old Szass Tammy interest me as well, but their grand aspirations are always thwarted and have little lasting effect on the Realms beyond troubling a handful of heroes within their local borders.

When I set this up, I had the Archwizards/Shade on the list, somewhere between getting the list together and creating the poll, I accidentally dropped it. My bad.



Speaking for myself, leaving Shade off from the list is more than acceptable. I found it disappointing in scope, poorly executed, and full of mischaracterization of existing NPCs.

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Markustay
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Posted - 26 Feb 2013 :  17:05:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Aldrick - I'm fairly certain that was a retcon, then. I no longer have the book, but I'm pretty sure I recall the tree was planted at the end of Evermeet: Island of Elves.

Despite my distaste for retcons, I would have to say the tree really did belong in Myth Drannor all along, and not in the Arctic circle. FR already has at least two Shangri-La's.

Funny how a 'fix' (change in lore) that we like doesn't matter to us nearly as much as those we don't like.

As an aside, I literally got nauseous when I read "One Million Elves". SERIOUSLY. I find it bizarre that a fictitious race should be able to effect me physically. Thats about 999,980 more elves then any setting needs.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

It's perfectly conceivable that a loose coalition of rebel enclaves could work together to seize control of a city. <snip>

Mulmaster is a more obvious choice, thinks I. They've already got a fair amount of power there.
AGREED.

However, I don't think they would actually seize the city, as they would be 'the power behind the throne'. I think they've always been more subtle then the Zhents, and they also saw what happened to the Zhents (on that same body of water) when they were too overt. It would suit their purposes far better to remain in the background.

EDIT: I've been thinking about starting a 'fixing Thay' thread today, but I should go looking for an old one first - I think we had one of those at least once before.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Feb 2013 17:09:39
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2013 :  22:49:40  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

@Aldrick - I'm fairly certain that was a retcon, then. I no longer have the book, but I'm pretty sure I recall the tree was planted at the end of Evermeet: Island of Elves.

Despite my distaste for retcons, I would have to say the tree really did belong in Myth Drannor all along, and not in the Arctic circle. FR already has at least two Shangri-La's.

Funny how a 'fix' (change in lore) that we like doesn't matter to us nearly as much as those we don't like.

As an aside, I literally got nauseous when I read "One Million Elves". SERIOUSLY. I find it bizarre that a fictitious race should be able to effect me physically. Thats about 999,980 more elves then any setting needs.


Yeah, I agree. I'm pretty sure it was a full out retcon, but I don't mind so much. Planting the Tree of Souls in Myth Drannor makes better sense, but not only that it is a great source of conflict.

ROFL. I hear you on the number of elves. I'd feel the same way, if they were similar to how the current group in Myth Drannor is portrayed. However, I have a dark and not-so-secret love for the Eldreth Veluuthra. My three favorite character and organization archetypes: insane bigots, insane religious zealots, and political Machiavellians. Give me a character or group who can touch on all three, and I'm in love.

Anyway, I didn't pull that number out of my butt. According to the 3E FRCS, there are 1,658,880 elves living on and around Evermeet. There is another 21,051 Elves living in and around Evereska. Both were trashed in my version of the Spellplague, but the Elves living in Evermeet were already coming to Myth Drannor in large numbers to help reclaim the forest, city, and rebuild what could be rebuilt. Some of the Elves who were returning were the same elves who fled Myth Drannor as refugees, and many of the first few waves were descendants whose parents fled. This is their homeland and they're retaking it.

They are able to move to and from Evermeet through the gate provided by the Tree of Souls. That's where they were getting the bulk of their supplies, trade, and the like.

I assumed, all told at the time of the Spellplague, that around 25,000 Elves from Evermeet were in Myth Drannor. As word spread across Faerun that the Tree of Souls had been planted, and that Myth Drannor had been reclaimed Elves from all over began making a pilgrimage. This was a huge event. Elves who couldn't afford to travel there as a family were scraping enough money together to send their sons and daughters, telling them about how it was their time to shine for their people, that they were about to enter into a golden age not seen since before the Crown Wars...

...then it all went to hell as conflicts broke out with the humans of the region (for many different reasons), and then the Spellplague happened and things went in a completely unexpected direction for everyone involved.

Evermeet and Evereska ended up pretty much uninhabitable. There was no Feywild shift in my Realms. The Spellplague worked differently in my Realms than in canon, and there were some very bad consequences for the Elves due to their unique connection to the Weave. Nearly one third of all Elves on Toril died in a matter of years. It was like witnessing the Black Death - one out of every three people you knew as an elf ended up dead. This also ultimately resulted in a split between the Elves with some of them becoming what they referred to as the Eladrin. (The Eladrin control Myth Drannor.) To them, the Eladrin are the "true" Elves.

I figured that around 20% of Evermeet and Evereska Elves go somewhere other than Myth Drannor. Some, for example, choose to stay behind, others go to family elsewhere (particularly up and down the Sword Coast and across the North). I estimate that roughly 27% of all Elves die. That's 981,080 refugees from Evermeet and Evereska. I assume after the earlier immigration from Evermeet (roughly 25,000), plus the immigrated Elves from the mainland (roughly 15,000), and the massive die off of around 27%; it left Myth Drannor with a rough estimated population of 29,200 prior to the first major waves of refugee immigration from Evermeet and Evereska caused by the Spellplague. In the end, it gave me a total population post-Spellplague of 1,010,280. So, just over one million Elves / Eladrin living in and around Myth Drannor.

In the canon Realms, had the Tree of Souls been used as intended I think we'd be looking at roughly between 500,000 - 700,000 Elves in Myth Drannor during 4E. Obviously, though, that is not the case. The FRCG estimates the population of Myth Drannor is roughly 10,000 Elves. This is obviously way too small a number considering it is a stable land with the Tree of Souls located there.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2013 :  23:20:33  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
mainly because I can't wrap my mind around the humans in the region openly accepting a militarily powerful group just showing up and establishing a nation right there in their midst.
Well, since this powerful group is so militarily superior that the humans can't do anything but hope that they are content with just Cormanthor, they don't have many options.
quote:
Originally posted by AldrickThrow on top of this that Sembia has a historical dislike of Elves...
And a military record of losing every single military conflict they ever had against the elves
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Well of course , Mask always has a plan.
And we all know how well his plans go even while stile going as planed

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just a note, you're stating that the elves were gone from Myth Drannor for centuries. That may be true that they were gone from that particular section of the woods for that long (which noone was there pretty much that was sane because it was overrun with nasties). However, the elves left the forest in what 1357? They returned in 1374, clearing out a bunch of very bad neighbors in the process. So, not even a full human generation passed, and they had never fully left the forest (there were still elves who stayed behind).
Which is what bugs me most about their "return":_ THEY NEVER LEFT

It's as if you know a guy who talks for years about moving away, then one Monday you actually see him leave with pantechnicons and all and on Thursday you suddenly see him moving back into his "old" flat and stating "wow, I was gone so long, good to be back in town"

Edited by - Mirtek on 26 Feb 2013 23:23:58
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2013 :  23:35:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thats the problem with Elves, they take forever to do anything - they are nearly as bad as (Tr)ents. By the time they were almost halfway done with their 'retreat', a whole generation (of humans) went by and they turned around and started heading back.

What no-one knows (until now) is that the retreat was called again (a re-retreat?)... several times in fact. The Elves spent the better part of the Wailing Years walking back and forth to the Swordcoast. By the time 5e rolls around Myth Drannor is nothing more then a partial ruin filled with exhausted Elves rubbing their feet.

"Sir... I have Queen Amlaruil on the scrying crystal... what should I tell her?"

"Oh for Pete's sake, we just got here again... just hang the damn thing up."

"Won't she be angry, sir?"

"*Meh* ... we'll just tell her the fiends took out the cell tower again. She'll believe that... she hasn't been right in the head since Zoar died."





"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2013 :  04:06:50  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*shakes head* so many people seem to hate elves (and I'm probably going to get bombarded with reasons why). I'd defend them again, but I'll refrain.

Seriously, though, the reclamation of Myth Drannor was a good thing, and it's not like everything is fine and dandy. There are still monsters to fight, and elves have many enemies (apparently, including people here on Candlekeep). Too many times RSEs seem to have disastrous effects. A change can occur that has good consequences, can't it?

And I would also like to add the events in LP as an RSE, though that seems to be in the category of "no follow ups" that MT mentioned.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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36779 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2013 :  04:49:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

*shakes head* so many people seem to hate elves (and I'm probably going to get bombarded with reasons why). I'd defend them again, but I'll refrain.

Seriously, though, the reclamation of Myth Drannor was a good thing, and it's not like everything is fine and dandy. There are still monsters to fight, and elves have many enemies (apparently, including people here on Candlekeep). Too many times RSEs seem to have disastrous effects. A change can occur that has good consequences, can't it?


I have nothing against elves. But, contrary to what some others have said, the epilogue of the third Last Mythal book makes it sound like Myth Drannor is, a mere five years after being reclaimed, a settled city. That's the part I object to -- how quickly it was wrapped up.

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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 27 Feb 2013 :  04:57:41  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not saying everyone does, just a lot of people, it seems. Hmmm...maybe so, and Blades of the Moonsea indicated it was fully settled. But being a settled city doesn't mean it doesn't have it's share of problems. ALL FR cities have their share of problems, be it its inhabitants or outside forces.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2013 :  05:34:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I'm not saying everyone does, just a lot of people, it seems. Hmmm...maybe so, and Blades of the Moonsea indicated it was fully settled. But being a settled city doesn't mean it doesn't have it's share of problems. ALL FR cities have their share of problems, be it its inhabitants or outside forces.



I get that. But Myth Drannor was shattered by an invading army. The ruins then stood for centuries, affected by twisted magical effects, fiends, phaerimm, at least one lich, Zhents, adventurers, looters, and random nastybads. The physical rebuilding alone would take decades, and that's assuming that you're not contending with warped magic, nastybads, whatever traps/unwelcome mats were left by the original defenders and/or occupying nastybads, and piles of rubble affected by centuries of exposure.

You don't fix all that in a handful of years -- especially with an army.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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15724 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2013 :  13:31:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Right

The end of the series made it look like 'cleaning up' Myth Drannor wasn't really hard at all... they Elves were just friggin' lazy all these years.

There are similar bits of lore elsewhere, like Bruenor and company re-taking Mithral Hall. Novels tend to make the 'armies of the past' look like a bunch of wimps. Myth Drannor was supposed to be at its height - the epitome of Elven High Magic - when it was cast down. How come the current generation was able to do what others couldn't for centuries?

And why bother when there are even more threats in the area, like the Cormanthor Drow, the Zhents, and the Shades? Were they actually waiting until they had far more enemies before attacking? The elves are supposed to be a wise, ancient race, and all I see is lots and lots of hubris and stupidity.

Its not Elves I hate - its the way they are portrayed in FR. I never had a problem with Greyhawk Elves (and still don't).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Feb 2013 15:31:24
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2013 :  18:40:08  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The physical rebuilding alone would take decades,
Assuming they do rebuild merely physical and not quickening it considerably by using magic.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert and that's assuming that you're not contending with warped magic, nastybads, whatever traps/unwelcome mats were left by the original defenders and/or occupying nastybads, and piles of rubble affected by centuries of exposure.

You don't fix all that in a handful of years -- especially with an army.
It's an army of Evermeet finest. All those high level mages, warriors, clerics and bladesingers finally having something other to do than enjoying the beaches of Evermeet

I am actually surprised that a 100 years later there's still so much to do (as per LFR), really lazy elves indeed
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How come the current generation was able to do what others couldn't for centuries?
Well, it's not as if the army that took Myth Drannor stayed around to occupy it until the crusade took it back. The city fell, it was looted and the army left. There were just stragglers left in the ruins. Sure, these mere stragglers were enough to prevent retaking by some mere bands of adventuriers, but it's not as if a real army ever tried before

Edited by - Mirtek on 27 Feb 2013 18:43:10
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 27 Feb 2013 :  21:28:17  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They also had the VERY big advantage of the Phaerimm not being there any more (at least in large numbers). Shade's crusade against the phaerimm eliminated that problem.

In my mind this leaves the Devils/Fiends as the biggest problem in Myth Drannor. In the books Sarya even is summoning more, but the major change she makes is changing the part of the mythal that keeps the major ones bound there (instead of wandering all over Faerun) so she can use them as part of her army. Frankly I think they are portrayed as FAR to easy to kill, but other than that I'm cool with it.

My biggest issues with that book all have to do with the resurrection of Fflar. Its one of my biggest problems of a lot of the 3rd edition books: they are all about filling in the blanks. In The Ruins of Myth Drannor box, Captain Fflar, and even the "Spoiler-laden" Fall of Myth Drannor supplement left Fflar be a mystery, most completely described here:

Captain "Fflar"
(LG ?m Warrior?)
The Captain's true name and race are long lost, as descriptions of the hero vary to fit the race that tells it; bards of all stripes sing of Fflar being a human paladin, an elf bladesinger, or even a half-elf ranger, and all insist that their versions of the legends are the truth. Of course, only those who stood by Fflar's side under his command on those last dark days know the truth, and of them, few survived the Final Fall.


This never needed to change and his presence did basically nothing but destroy that (Any great warrior could have taken his place as adviser to the crusading priest). I also thought the whole thing with him falling in love with the other hero's girl and vice versa was stupid. If they were not elves I might have bought it, but elves are supposed to be patient. Elves are supposed to be deliberate. The whole reason she "fell out of love" with the other guy was he's too impetuous and goes off on adventures. So she then decides to be impetuous herself? Bunk. Then setting her up as Coronal was silly too.
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 27 Feb 2013 :  22:15:56  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd go with the return of shade, mostly because it didn't change much, except adding a new dark power group...

To go through the list of them:

I talked about the Return of Elves above.

The Tuigan horde I don't think qualifies. Wars happen. Even big ones. The Realms moves on apace.

Likewise, Azoun dying is not a Realms changer - he was old anyways. I didn't like how Tana died but that speaks more to the good character creation than anything. The part of the Cormyr novels that bugged me the most was the death of the purple dragon. I think in hindsight it would have made a much more epic story arc for the dragon who killed Azoun/Azoun killed to have been the purple dragon. In my Realms the purple dragon still lives, sleeping away the centuries and coming out to rampage and feed when he wakes.

I have no idea what the Abyssal Plague is. Is that the shadow storm? I liked those books but I think too many writers are too caught up with shadows. We've got shadow magic (Harper Novels), we've got shades & the shadow weave, we've got Mask and his chosen, and I'm sure I'm missing something. Time to get creative and find a new topic to write about I'd say.

The spellplague was the biggest mistake in FR history. Nuff Said. As part of that, I'd tie in all the Major changes just prior to or during the 4th E change. Lolth's Silence, The dead Drow Gods, Thay becoming zombie-ville, Khelben dying to resurrect a group of backwaters who had been alive anyway in another form for literally thousands upon thousands of years (I mean would you say thank you?? They are all dead now forever, btw since their natural life spans would be up - well done). The Abolethic Sovereignty was all bad. The idea, the story, the back story, and the end with a big stupid spire hanging over the sea - everything.

I didn't mind the rage of dragons except it read like the author was sitting there with a Dragon Monstrous Compendium and saying ooh, this dragon is cool so lets have a chapter! Oh, and the books destroyed the rage of dragons plot forever, (I think the elves have to go remake that mythal, btw) and the mythal being phylactery bit was contrived.

Back in the day I thought the Time of Troubles was interesting, though very difficult to incorporate and adapt to. I didn't like the Cyric the Mad / Mystra the Whiney / Kelemvor the dutiful book though, or the assumption that Leira is dead (I went into depth in a thread about this before). I thought Shadows of Doom was fantastic, and turned many of the characters I barely knew into ones that will always be favorites. My LEAST favorite part of the time of troubles was the end when House Oblodra is destroyed in Menzoberranzan - simply terrible. The one truly unique drow house gone just like that. Bad Writing.

Sorry for all the negativity, but its an innately negative topic in my book... To make up for it, I'll lend my support to the Red Walker's idea above.

"voted other - the only RSE i like was the decision to run as much of new realms design as possible by Ed ...that is the only thing that gives me hope."

I had quit the realms with 4th Ed. Now I'm back and hoping it gets salvaged and all the junk from before can just get shoved into the closet and be forgotten.
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  01:48:14  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Right

Its not Elves I hate - its the way they are portrayed in FR. I never had a problem with Greyhawk Elves (and still don't).



Greyhawk was the originally D&D setting, right? I've heard of it, but I'm not familiar with it. Sadly, I did not grow up in a D&D-centered world. What is the difference between Greyhawk elves and FR elves?

I can see people's point; it was resettled rather fast, and, like many things in FR, unfortunately, the reasons haven't been addressed. Still, I think there is still plenty of danger in the surrounding area.

@The Masked Mage: elves are supposed to be patient, yes--as Ilsevele and Araevin 20 year betrothal indicates--but it doesn't mean they can't have "love at first sight", either. Personally, I liked Starbow, though I felt bad for Araevin that Ilsevele ditched him. It would have been interesting to see how the others reacted to her and Starbow marrying so fast. I think there was some intriguing things going on there. Starbow remembered walking alongside his former wife and her lover in Arvandor, and he thought he was happy "sharing" her, but he later realized that wasn't the case, and he realized he loved Ilesevele, and said to her "I know why I came back now". I don't remember the details, it's been awhile, but there could have been something going on there that we aren't privy to.

Probably not that big of a deal in the larger scheme of things, but I look out for those types of things sometimes, anyway.

Sweet water and light laughter
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  01:59:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer

I really enjoyed Tam's war in The Haunted Lands. Does that count?
As I did. But I don't consider it an RSE (Realms-Shaking Event). There's only one realm involved (that's why it's called Civil War, right?); yes, Rashemen and Aglarond were involved, too, but just minimally.



How can it not be a RSE? The consequence of the civil war has direct implications for every nation in the region, and consequences that stretch far beyond them as well. Just imagine all those Red Wizards who weren't loyal to Tam, but were located in the numerous Enclaves scattered about Faerun. Virtually every one of those enclaves are now independent, and yet still enjoy the protection of the Three Laws of the Enclave.

So, now we have on the loose the largest number of renegade Red Wizards in the history of Thay. How many of Thay's magical and political secrets are now potentially at risk? What will these enclaves do? Who knows.

It's perfectly conceivable that a loose coalition of rebel enclaves could work together to seize control of a city. Imagine them, for example, coordinating to seize control of Raven's Bluff. Funds that they would otherwise be channeling back to Thay could be coordinated for such an effort. They already have a rather strong and successful enclave located there, so it's just a matter of extending it's influence (much easier if they have additional funds and resources for other enclaves). From there they could covertly eliminate key rivals, and put the right puppets loyal to them in the right places...

No longer bound by Thayan law to train only Mulan as Red Wizards, their ranks open up to virtually anyone who can use magic. What individual who wanted to study the Art wouldn't want a peek at the secret knowledge of the Red Wizards?

So, from there what do these enclaves do? Do they direct their resources toward conquering new territory, and establishing a new nation under their control? Or maybe they simply work to build up enough resources to retake Thay by force?

No matter the option they choose it'll have an impact on the politics and economics where there are Enclaves present. Even if they don't work together, they're now independent and their aims may no longer be simply about trade. They no longer have a superior looking over their shoulder, and now they're free to do whatever they want. This could potentially upset local and regional power structures.

Basically, wherever the hand of Thay has touched there will be some impact. It could be very minor, or it could be something major - we don't know. However, it would be a direct consequence of the civil war. Even if it is something small like Thayan circle magic starting to spread among non-Red Wizards; that's still a consequence and an implication.

When you basically have the collapse of an entire nation, it isn't exactly self-contained. It impacts EVERYONE who has any relationship with that nation; most directly it's neighbors, but things further afield can also be impacted to greater and lesser degrees.




I agree that Thay's fall would affect other countries. However, I don't agree that they'd seek to seize one of their hosting cities. That'd be a very stupid move, because every hosting city would then march on the other enclaves. Better to keep their enclaves, build a network up, then turn on a city that DOESN'T host them and which won't piss off any of their hosting cities. Now, what that target would be.... good question because all their enclaves are near places that could be a problem..... except down in the Shaar.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Dalor Darden
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USA
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Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  02:52:16  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do most people not see The Fall of Netheril (aka Karsus' Folly) as an RSE?

I consider it one of the greatest of the entire history of the Forgotten Realms setting...even beyond the Time of Troubles; and easily the equal of the Spellplague. If it hadn't been for this single event:

Halruaa would not have come to be.

There would have been no Shades to return (since they would have only been one of MANY flying city-states!) and cause so much trouble.

Cormyr and many of the nations of the Swordcoast/North would never have come to be.

Very likely the elves of Cormanthor would have been destroyed or conquered...Cormyr wouldn't have even existed.

12th level Spells would still be "common" among the most powerful of magic users (a world full of severed mountain tops turned into flying city-states anyone?).

Forget about there being a Shoon Imperium...they would have been TROUNCED by the Netherese.

Mystra would never have been...and therefore not likely felt the need to create Chosen at all (which to me means that the likes of Elminster would never have been...he would have ended up a street-thief perhaps).

I mean...seriously; I don't think people even consider it an RSE simply because it came "before" the setting was even published maybe...but what else defined the area commonly played greater than this event?

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Markustay
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Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  04:33:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, if the 'shaking' happened before it became a published setting, then there really isn't any sort of 'nerd rage' we could logicaly generate toward it (because it was one of the things that was built into it from the beginning).

'Changes' to the setting only count when they happen while its a published setting, in the current timeframe. Nearly all popular RPG settings had a 'big bad' in the recent past (usually around "a century ago"), but thats not a 'world-shaking event', no matter how monolithic it was, because we didn't experience it first-hand.

So even though Karsus' Folly certainly counts as an RSE from a technical standpoint, it doesn't count as far as the fanbase should be concerned (usually).

For instance, If I read The Hobbit, I certainly couldn't start picking-apart how Smeagol found the one ring, because it happened long before the current story is written. If Tolkien's son decided to write a new ME novel and said that it turns out all hobbits are lizard people, then we can generate some decent 'nerd rage' over that (although thats more of a retcon, unless he did something that turned them into lizard people, which would certainly be an RSE, at least from their point-of-view).

So 'history' really doesn't count when discussing setting-changing events (because the setting didn't actually exist before it was changed.. which is a bit of a paradox).

On the other hand, I fully expect lots of people to argue the point, because thats pretty much all that happens around here. The only thing I think we can all agree on is that we can agree on nothing.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2013 04:34:16
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Jeremy Grenemyer
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Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  07:13:20  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heh. I won't argue that Karsus' fall is an RSE, I'll just tell you flat out that I think it's an RSE.

You make a good point (Markus) about the fact that how people interpret and react to RSEs does depend on whether they experience them or not.

That said, the Realms is rich because of its history. Dalor is wise to remind us that we shouldn't ignore that fact.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).

Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 28 Feb 2013 07:15:53
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Quale
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Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  10:46:26  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The return of the archwizards, tough I didn't like the novels (includes the Twilight War).
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Aldrick
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Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  14:56:59  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I agree that Thay's fall would affect other countries. However, I don't agree that they'd seek to seize one of their hosting cities. That'd be a very stupid move, because every hosting city would then march on the other enclaves. Better to keep their enclaves, build a network up, then turn on a city that DOESN'T host them and which won't piss off any of their hosting cities. Now, what that target would be.... good question because all their enclaves are near places that could be a problem..... except down in the Shaar.


I didn't mean to imply that they would violently overthrow the government of a city state. That would be incredibly stupid on their part, and very well may create the type of backlash that you describe. I envision them forming a loose allied network among themselves, and coordinating to subvert the government in a place that they have considerable influence already.

Wooly suggested Mulmaster, and I'm inclined to agree with his suggestion.

They would work by forming strategic quid pro quo alliances and arrangements with the various powers in the city, using bribes and pay offs as necessary. They'd play off existing rivalries, aiding covert assassinations of shared rivals quietly. Where necessary, they'd use their arcane abilities to 'make' people more agreeable to them, but of course it'd have to be done very subtly.

Over about the course of a decade they'd grow with more and more power and influence, until the city is independent in name only. They would basically become the puppet masters behind the government of the city, and they'd be able to work with impunity. Those who'd view the action from afar would simply view the government as corrupt, and see the Thayan's as taking advantage of that corruption to extend their influence and power over the city. Yet, that's more-or-less what everyone expects them to do anyway. This is how they wormed their way into cities in the first place, as it's not like the Red Wizards were ever popular outside of Thay.

That being said, I'm pretty sure as word got around that Thay had been basically decimated by civil war, at least some of the enclaves would have been sacked, looted, and razed - the citizens of the Enclave dragged out into the streets and lynched. Especially in places where Red Wizards are actively despised.

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Tyrant
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Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  16:43:47  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
That being said, I'm pretty sure as word got around that Thay had been basically decimated by civil war, at least some of the enclaves would have been sacked, looted, and razed - the citizens of the Enclave dragged out into the streets and lynched. Especially in places where Red Wizards are actively despised.


If they are so despised, how did they operate before the civil war if they could be overrun by mobs? I don't see that happening to more than 1 or 2, if that many. News of the fall of Thay (if that's how the outside views it, the downfall of the Zulkirs isn't the downfall of the country and I am sure most people who know of him have the good sense to fear Szass Tam) will spread among the Enclaves faster than among the general population because they will use magic to communicate. The forming of alliances and creation of escape plans (or the creation of new, non-going-back-to-Thay escape plans as the case may be) will be in the works long before news reaches very far across the continent. Adding to that, I don't see the Enclaves going down peacefully and I imagine any one of them is capable of taking a chunk of whatever city it sits in down with it, so I would suspect the civil authorities would try to stop the mobs or broker a non violent resolution. Alternatively, if the threat of retaliation from Thay is all that is holding back the mobs, why would they not fear retaliation from the Thayans in exile at the other Enclaves? The Red Wizards didn't suddenly become unable to unload destruction on their enemies because of a change in government back home.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest
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Aldrick
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909 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  23:13:50  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
That being said, I'm pretty sure as word got around that Thay had been basically decimated by civil war, at least some of the enclaves would have been sacked, looted, and razed - the citizens of the Enclave dragged out into the streets and lynched. Especially in places where Red Wizards are actively despised.


If they are so despised, how did they operate before the civil war if they could be overrun by mobs? I don't see that happening to more than 1 or 2, if that many. News of the fall of Thay (if that's how the outside views it, the downfall of the Zulkirs isn't the downfall of the country and I am sure most people who know of him have the good sense to fear Szass Tam) will spread among the Enclaves faster than among the general population because they will use magic to communicate. The forming of alliances and creation of escape plans (or the creation of new, non-going-back-to-Thay escape plans as the case may be) will be in the works long before news reaches very far across the continent. Adding to that, I don't see the Enclaves going down peacefully and I imagine any one of them is capable of taking a chunk of whatever city it sits in down with it, so I would suspect the civil authorities would try to stop the mobs or broker a non violent resolution. Alternatively, if the threat of retaliation from Thay is all that is holding back the mobs, why would they not fear retaliation from the Thayans in exile at the other Enclaves? The Red Wizards didn't suddenly become unable to unload destruction on their enemies because of a change in government back home.


A number of different points.

First, the enclaves are fairly independent, and the reactions of those that run them will vary. Some will still oppose Tam no matter what, and these are the enclaves I see aligning themselves with each other. They have a common enemy to unite them. Others, likely had Red Wizards sitting out the civil war waiting to see who would win. After all, a civil war is a dangerous thing and you don't want to end up on the wrong side. So, those Red Wizards may be returning to Thay to pledge loyalty to Tam... what happens with them is anyone's guess. Next, you're going to have some enclaves who take the opportunity to strike off in an independent direction. They'll see no benefit siding with the rebel enclaves, and even if they do it'll be tangentially.

Second, in the immediate aftermath of the war there would be a period of chaos. What is the Enclave in City X doing? Where do they stand?

"Will they align with us?"

"I heard Y Red Wizard of Enclave Z returned to Thay to pledge his loyalty to Tam... no one has heard from him since then. Tell the others to not go, it's a trap."

"Enclave V is being threatened by the civil authorities to have the Three Laws revoked. He's attempting to sue for better terms of agreement. They've heard of events back home in Thay... should we send aid? Enclave V is opposed to our alliance!"

...on and on and on. The events and politics surrounding each individual enclave are unique, and events would play out accordingly.

Third, some Enclaves are located in places where Red Wizard's are really despised. The Red Wizard's usually got a foot hold with their Enclaves through bribing local ruling authorities, and making various deals and arrangements. The Enclaves primarily benefit those with wealth and power, as those are the only people who can really afford to buy magical items.

It's not like the Red Wizards have a good reputation. Most people regard them as slavers, and likely individuals who practice dark magic... maybe even consorting with demons, devils, and other such monsters. It's not like average Joe has the knowledge to know any different.

Fourth, there are some places where there are power groups arranged against the Enclaves - such as the Harpers. At least in my Realms, the Harpers would be behind some of those riots and lynchings. In other cases, the civilian authority may attempt to seize the Enclave in an attempt to confiscate its goods. I'm not saying this would be widespread, but it would have to happen at least a handful of them.

Why now, and not in the past? Well, if you had done it in the past then you're pretty much guaranteed reprisal by Thay. That's no longer an issue, as in the immediate aftermath of a civil war, they have bigger problems to deal with than the loss of one of their enclaves. It probably doesn't even make the list of the top one hundred things to be concerned about. Especially in light of the fact that at least some of them are rebelling.

Keep in mind, also, that the civil war had been going on for YEARS prior to the Spellplague. Anyone who has an Enclave located in their city is going to be intensely interested about such events in Thay, and you can bet groups like the Harpers are making the information known - and perhaps embellishing on it a great deal.

As well, it's not as if the enclaves are going to reveal where they stand to each other until after the war. They're in the position to hold things close to the chest until things are decided in Thay.
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Dark Wizard
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Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  23:40:29  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Markus is right on Karsus's Folly and the Fall of Netheril. It's a RSE by technicality, but far from it in actuality. A historical event is not an active "in your face" meta-plot event. A RSE occuring "in real time" offers gamers three options: ignore it, adapt it, or take it as is. Depending on the magnitude of the event, the fanbase diverges. There are times this can be good, but then again, sometimes they create more trouble and inconsistencies than they're worth.

A past calamity allows the passage of time and existing history in the setting to take into account the affect of the massive event. It is a built-in aspect of the world, and for the most part fans come into the setting with the past event as a feature, or even a setting defining pillar.

Any setting worth its print will give ample opportunities to explore the legacy of such events, and the Realms does. However, a great setting also provides even more opportunities to explore the setting outside of any singular event, and the Realms does this in spades.

The long term ramifications of recent RSEs have not been integrated as well as true historical events. Due to the complexity and lag time of publishing, it takes real time for the designers and writers to digest an event. We started to finally resolve the ToT and the Horde, but then we're inundated with a handful of consecutive large events. They may have impact, especially immediately, but nothing as extensive as they're billed to be or indeed should have given their scope. In my opinion, repeated use of the big event plot device leaves the setting with a certain frayed and tattered feel, and I don't mean that in a good way. It has the feel of something yanked and wore by too many hands to the point that I no longer have a clear sense of what the thing is anymore.

Going forward, I would like RSE to be redefined as "Region Stirring Event" and for WotC to take that term to heart, in tone and presentation. I see more sensible potential in something like the rise of the Sythillisian Empire and the Occupation of Unther than most of the events mentioned as RSEs in the OP.

None of the existing factions were entirely wiped out and they remain to fight the good fight, creating tension and conflict. There's no overuse of resurrected or returned Ancient Magical Empire (TM). No deities overtly or physically involved. No elves who retreated for a human generation only to return in force and wipe away one of the setting's most iconic adventuring locales, tonally if not actually. No rearranging of half the landmasses or a pseudo-retcon of races. Etc. Focus on mortal beings going about their ambitions, beliefs, delusions, and follies and triumphs. The stakes are high, but not cosmologically so.

Edited by - Dark Wizard on 28 Feb 2013 23:49:24
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  23:56:35  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't realize we were talking about Reality Shaking Events...I thought we were talking about REALMS RSE events. They are different...at least I thought.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Tyrant
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Posted - 01 Mar 2013 :  07:59:56  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
A number of different points.

First, the enclaves are fairly independent, and the reactions of those that run them will vary. Some will still oppose Tam no matter what, and these are the enclaves I see aligning themselves with each other. They have a common enemy to unite them. Others, likely had Red Wizards sitting out the civil war waiting to see who would win. After all, a civil war is a dangerous thing and you don't want to end up on the wrong side. So, those Red Wizards may be returning to Thay to pledge loyalty to Tam... what happens with them is anyone's guess. Next, you're going to have some enclaves who take the opportunity to strike off in an independent direction. They'll see no benefit siding with the rebel enclaves, and even if they do it'll be tangentially.

It's been a while since I read the trilogy, but I thought the battle lines were pretty clear once the actual civil war got under way. I don't see why it would be any different in the Enclaves beyond some Necromancers deciding to not support Tam and a random handful of non Necromancers siding with Tam. Other than that, I think everyone would know where everyone else stands based on their school of study.
quote:
Second, in the immediate aftermath of the war there would be a period of chaos. What is the Enclave in City X doing? Where do they stand?

"Will they align with us?"

"I heard Y Red Wizard of Enclave Z returned to Thay to pledge his loyalty to Tam... no one has heard from him since then. Tell the others to not go, it's a trap."

"Enclave V is being threatened by the civil authorities to have the Three Laws revoked. He's attempting to sue for better terms of agreement. They've heard of events back home in Thay... should we send aid? Enclave V is opposed to our alliance!"

...on and on and on. The events and politics surrounding each individual enclave are unique, and events would play out accordingly.


Sure there would be some chaos, but that is when evil usually knows to present a strong face. Peasants causing problems? Remind them why they feared the Red Wizards in the first place. I also believe anyone entrusted to run an Enclave has to be somewhat intelligent (game stats discussion given that INT is the key stat for Wizards aside) and they would realize quite qucikly that their only real hope lies in some form of alliance if for no other reason than to stand united against Tam. Their magic and gold didn't just suddenly disappear and I believe any remotely worthy leader would use both to secure their position while they build an alliance or while they infiltrate the local government to secure a regional power base.
quote:
Third, some Enclaves are located in places where Red Wizard's are really despised. The Red Wizard's usually got a foot hold with their Enclaves through bribing local ruling authorities, and making various deals and arrangements. The Enclaves primarily benefit those with wealth and power, as those are the only people who can really afford to buy magical items.

It's not like the Red Wizards have a good reputation. Most people regard them as slavers, and likely individuals who practice dark magic... maybe even consorting with demons, devils, and other such monsters. It's not like average Joe has the knowledge to know any different.

So why is average Joe, who we have established does not understand the Red Wizards and only fears them, suddenly decide to take up a pitchfork and go fight a group of people that commande forces beyond his comprehension on the say so of some other random guy that their homeland is embroiled in a civil war? What does average Joe stand to gain? How is he not scared off when the first person to get that crazy idea is brutally murdered by the Red Wizards?
quote:
Fourth, there are some places where there are power groups arranged against the Enclaves - such as the Harpers. At least in my Realms, the Harpers would be behind some of those riots and lynchings. In other cases, the civilian authority may attempt to seize the Enclave in an attempt to confiscate its goods. I'm not saying this would be widespread, but it would have to happen at least a handful of them.

Isn't it somewhere in here where the Harpers appear to fall off the map to the point that decades later they are still rebuilding? I don't see that force undoing the influence of many Enclaves. As for the civil authorities, why kill the Golden Goose if it can keep laying Golden Eggs? Storming an Enclave ensure those will be the last goods you get from them while simultaneously tempting fate and hoping that the Thayans don't destroy part of the city or murder you in your sleep. Also, I would think some of the Enclaves have a failsafe of some type similar to (though possibly not as powerful as) Arklem Greeth had in the Hosttower of the Arcane in Luskan to ensure that it's fall had consequences for those who brought it about.
quote:
Why now, and not in the past? Well, if you had done it in the past then you're pretty much guaranteed reprisal by Thay. That's no longer an issue, as in the immediate aftermath of a civil war, they have bigger problems to deal with than the loss of one of their enclaves. It probably doesn't even make the list of the top one hundred things to be concerned about. Especially in light of the fact that at least some of them are rebelling.

I woudn't be so sure about that. Mid civil war Tam found time and resources to send people to the other side of the continent to build an apparently completely unnecessary Dread Ring. If he can do that, how hard is it really going to be to send a few Red Wizards to raise hell? It's not like it would take batallions of them to get the job done. Just one, if it's the right one, could do it.
quote:
Keep in mind, also, that the civil war had been going on for YEARS prior to the Spellplague. Anyone who has an Enclave located in their city is going to be intensely interested about such events in Thay, and you can bet groups like the Harpers are making the information known - and perhaps embellishing on it a great deal.

Unless the Harpers main goal is to get people killed I don't see them rallying the mobs. The final tally will be a lot more civilians dead than Thayans. I think you are underestimating what a group of evil, and somewhat powerful, wizards will do when cornered and all hope of victory appears to be lost.
quote:
As well, it's not as if the enclaves are going to reveal where they stand to each other until after the war. They're in the position to hold things close to the chest until things are decided in Thay.


What's to hide? You were either with Tam or against him and it looked to me like if you weren't a Necromancer odds were pretty good you were against him.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest
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Aldrick
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Posted - 01 Mar 2013 :  13:06:37  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tyrant -

I won't refute any of your arguments. The fact of the matter is we're engaging in speculation. The issue is that we really don't know what happened to the Enclaves.

We can get lost in the weeds of the debate (and I don't mind doing that, really; as I enjoy the discussion). However, I realized as I was reading your response that both you and I overlooked something glaringly obvious.

We overlooked the impact the Spellplague had on the enclaves, magic items, and wizards.

Do we even have any idea how it impacted arcane magic users in the immediate aftermath of the Spellplague? We know that Tam was able to adjust quickly, but what about everyone else?
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Dennis
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Posted - 01 Mar 2013 :  14:07:56  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Do most people not see The Fall of Netheril (aka Karsus' Folly) as an RSE?

I consider it one of the greatest of the entire history of the Forgotten Realms setting...even beyond the Time of Troubles; and easily the equal of the Spellplague. If it hadn't been for this single event:

Halruaa would not have come to be.

There would have been no Shades to return (since they would have only been one of MANY flying city-states!) and cause so much trouble.
I do consider it an RSE. How can we not, when it completely changed the very nature of spellcasting in the Realms?

I just hope though that more of the fallen enclaves would emerge and fly to the skies once more, and either join or oppose Shade (covertly or overtly). 'Tis one of the things I'm looking forward to in 5E.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
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Posted - 01 Mar 2013 :  14:36:03  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

We overlooked the impact the Spellplague had on the enclaves, magic items, and wizards.

Do we even have any idea how it impacted arcane magic users in the immediate aftermath of the Spellplague? We know that Tam was able to adjust quickly, but what about everyone else?
Many of the zulkirs' talismans survived the brunt of the Spellplague, while some were rendered useless. Same thing might have happened to those baubles in the enclaves, or worse, or better. In other words, we don't know. But it's safe to assume not all of them were turned useless beyond repair, as they're in not stored in one place. Same thing can be said about the wizards that man the enclaves.

Every beginning has an end.
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