Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 What was your favorite Realms-Shaking Event?
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 5

Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2130 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  15:59:05  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

What I'd like to see moving forward is writers/designers addressing past RSE's, rather then just ignoring them after they are over. Its very unrealistic, IMHO. For instance, in the Waterdeep novel by Ed & Elaine, they gave a nod to the Threat from the Sea, yet another completely forgotten about RSE. Thats what I want to see - some AFTERMATH. I truly, TRULY hate that "everything is fine the next day" attitude in the Realms (and I am looking squarely at YOU, Ruins of Zhentil Keep). Lets see some damn repercussions for a change.


Well stated.

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane

* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives

My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
Go to Top of Page

Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  16:31:23  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

I daresay it's not a good example to stress your point. Mystra (as Ed said a million times) IS magic. And the Realms is awash with magic. Killing her disrupted magic in the whole setting, blowing things up, changing the land and its people. That's clear and obvious impact of her demise, so it's an RSE.


I chose that example on purpose. You made the argument that you defined RSE as what happened to who or what, and not on the consequences or future implications of those actions. To that end, you didn't consider the civil war in Thay a RSE, because it only directly impacted Thay, and it's neighbors Rashemen and Aglarond had minimal involvement.

My counter point is this: Yes, all of that is true. Rashemen and Aglarond's involvement in the war itself was minimal. However, the consequences of the civil war have major regional implications that impact not just every surrounding nation, but potentially have unknown consequences that stretch across Faerun. (I use the Enclaves as merely an example.)

My argument is that you cannot make such major changes to a nation state without it having it have major implications that ripple outward across the Realms. Some of the consequences may be very small and minor, and others may be major. Obviously, the neighbors of Thay are those most directly impacted by the change.

By creating such a limiting view of RSE as you put forward, you make it possible to argue that Mystra's death isn't a RSE. Yes, magic got screwed up because of her death. However, the politics of Thay's neighbors just got shaken up by that civil war as well. Is it on a totally different scale? Of course. Yet, if we're only limiting ourselves to who or what is directly and immediately impacted, we're limiting the impact of Mystra's death to the Chosen, her Church, the deities who reside in Dweomerheart (because it blew up), and of course Mystra herself.

Obviously, it's absurd. I don't think there is anyone here on these forums who would argue Mystra's death wasn't a RSE. However, if we are using your limited view of RSE then we could make that argument. In fact, if you think Mystra's death was a RSE then you're embracing the underlying argument that I'm making.

That argument is: It's not just the event in question that constitutes a RSE, it's also the potential consequences that ripple outward from it.

This is why what happened in Thay is a RSE. It (should) have the potential to have consequences that reach far beyond the nation itself. If the events in Thay were contained, and it had virtually ZERO impact or consequences on events outside of Thay - then it wouldn't be a RSE. Just as assassinating the leader of the Shadow Thieves will only largely have implications for Athkatla. It really wouldn't have much of an impact on the Realms beyond that - it is a self-contained event. Therefore, it is not Realms Shaking.

By definition non-RSE events have to be self-contained.

Keep in mind, I'm not arguing that there aren't different degrees of RSE. Some RSE will have a larger impact than others. I'm also not making the argument that all RSE are bad; I like some, and hate others. I imagine everyone feels the same way.

If I had it my way, RSE would be extremely rare, and if they did happen (notice I said if and not when), the logical consequences of the event that took place would be played out in a way that is consistent with established lore. This means we could have what took place in Thay play out (even though I personally dislike that RSE), but we must also have novels detailing what is going on in Thay's neighboring nations. How are they reacting? What are they doing? How have they changed? As well, we should get a good idea on what is happening with all those Enclaves.

In short, the RSE shouldn't even happen until we've been able to narrow down what the likely consequences of such a major change to the setting would entail. I'm not saying we need to dig all the way down to how it impacts even the most remote farmer in the backwoods of Cormyr. However, we should at least know the implications on the surrounding nations, and have a good idea of what is going on with the Enclaves. That's at the very least, the bare minimum that needs to be done. If I want to set an adventure or write a story in Raven's Bluff after the Thayan Civil War, I should have a good idea about how the Enclave was altered as a result of the consequences of that war. I shouldn't just have to take a shot in the dark; I should be able to make a logical and educated guess based on the established lore.

This is good for the sake of consistency in the lore. I see it as treating the setting, and the work of everyone who uses it (whether they just read the novels, use the setting for gaming, write novels, or design source books) - with respect and integrity. When things are being blown up and altered in dramatic ways willy-nilly it undermines the shared world that we've attempted to create and enjoy together.

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

Now back to Thay's Civil War, on your example on the Red Wizards and their enclaves . . . What happened to them exactly? Yes, they're practically free now to further their own agenda. But have they actually done something that threatened the peace and security of any realm?


That's my point. We don't really know what the consequences of the Civil War were, because they were hand-waved away. Just like with Myth Drannor and the Tree of Souls. The Tree of Souls was planted, and that is supposed to mark the return of Elves from Evermeet to their new homeland. The Tree of Souls literally functions as a gate between Evermeet and Myth Drannor. Elves should be streaming forth from that gate to help retake Myth Drannor, clear the forest of enemies, and basically re-establish the kingdom. In the span of 100 years, we're literally talking about a kingdom living in that forest that is perhaps hundreds of thousands of Elves.

After the Spellplague wrecked Evermeet, there should have been a flood of refugee's coming through that gate. We see no evidence of this what-so-ever. The Tree of Souls was planted and it's literally ignored.

This says nothing about the implications of refounding Myth Drannor should have with the Humans of the Dales, the Moonsea, Cormyr, and Sembia. We can just ignore that for the moment, because the planting of the Tree of Souls is so important to the Elves with such major implications that the very act of planting it is in and of itself a RSE.

The same issues exist for the events surrounding Thay. The consequences, which the lore demands should happen, are either hand-waved away or ignored. This is because the consequences have the potential to be much bigger than the event itself. This is the lore malpractice equivalent of killing Mystra, and only detailing what happened to her Church and the Chosen, meanwhile ignoring the impact it had on magic as a whole.
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  16:55:28  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

This is why what happened in Thay is a RSE. It (should) have the potential to have consequences that reach far beyond the nation itself.
(highlight mine) See? You cannot even provide a concrete consequence that (going by the notion of RSE) nuked, altered, shook, or disrupted a realm other than Thay itself. A potential is not good enough (for me). That's just like saying anything major that happens in a realm—whatever realm—would ultimately affect the world at large.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

We don't really know what the consequences of the Civil War were . . .
Precisely. How can something be an “event” (an actual consequence) when it hasn't and probably won't happen?

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33987 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  16:58:59  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

It's perfectly conceivable that a loose coalition of rebel enclaves could work together to seize control of a city. Imagine them, for example, coordinating to seize control of Raven's Bluff. Funds that they would otherwise be channeling back to Thay could be coordinated for such an effort. They already have a rather strong and successful enclave located there, so it's just a matter of extending it's influence (much easier if they have additional funds and resources for other enclaves). From there they could covertly eliminate key rivals, and put the right puppets loyal to them in the right places...




Mulmaster is a more obvious choice, thinks I. They've already got a fair amount of power there.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  17:18:20  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

@Aldrick - simple solution offered by a continuity gaff (once again, "use the lore to fix the lore"):

The Tree of Souls - fully empowered to 'do its thing' - was planted in Auserial first. Then it was uprooted - which was NEVER SUPPOSED TO OCCUR - and replanted in Myth Drannor. This damaged the 'divine magic' associated with the relic (sacred artifact), so its not functioning the way it should have. I assume some of the magic is still associated with its original placement. Given enough time, it may be able to 'repair' itself.

That's my solution - YMMV.


Sure, we could come up with our own solutions. I did in my game; I basically have over a million Elves living in that region now. Crap got real, really fast, and now let's just say the EV are pretty popular among the Elves. Oh, and a couple of Dales are occupied territories where the humans live in apartheid conditions. Also, they're in a cold war with Cormyr, and have been at each others throats since the EV assassinated Azoun V. (They assassinated him because both he and Coronal Ilsevele Miritar were trying to work on a agreement that would secure the peace and stability of the region. The EV killed Azoun V to put an end to it, and they were successful. Events quickly spiraled out of control from there; ultimately leading to some shady work on the part of the Cormyrian's which led to the horrific public execution of the Coronal's son who was attempting to help secure the peace. The Coronal herself was assassinated several years later by Zhent assassins hired by the Cormyrian crown - yeah, the entire region got all a Song of Ice and Fire.)

---

As a lore side note, to my understanding the Tree of Souls was never planted in Auseriel. If it was, it was retconned. Taken directly from A Grand History of the Realms:


- 1371 DR - Prince Lamruil of Evermeet, his human consort Maura Silverhand (daughter of Laeral Silverhand), and their followers travel to the far northern reaches of Faerûn to establish a hidden city called Auseriel. They bring the Tree of Souls with them, given to them by the prince's mother, Queen Amlaruil of Evermeet, intending to plant it at the heart of a new refuge for the Fair Folk once the city begins to flourish.

Notice the phrase there: INTENDING to plant it. It doesn't say they actually planted it.

1373 DR - Auseriel comes under concerted attack by a family of white dragons led by the great wyrm Harashnalthyn. At Maura's insistence, Prince Lamruil returns the Tree of Souls to Evermeet, while the princess and their remaining followers provide a valiant rearguard defense.

Notice here: He returned the Tree of Souls to Evermeet. As you noted in Elves of Evermeet, the Tree of Souls cannot be moved once it is planted.

1377 DR - The Srinshee returns to Myth Drannor and offers Ilsevele Miritar the Rulers' Blade in recognition of her wise and resolute leadership in the realm's refounding. Ilsevele humbly accepts the Rulers’ Blade and takes the title of coronal. Queen Amlaruil arrives to congratulate the new coronal and brings with her the Tree of Souls as a gift to the new realm. The artifact is planted in a ring-shaped colonnade at the heart of the city known as Seldarrshen Nieryll, the Starsoul Shrine.

---

Based on the above from a Grand History of the Realms, it seems to indicate that the Tree of Souls was taken to Auseriel with the intention of planting it there. However, before they were prepared to plant the tree white dragons attacked led by Harashnalthyn. There is pressure for the Prince to take it back to Evermeet due to the danger, and he does so. It is too valuable to risk. Four years later Queen Amlaruil decides to give it to the new Coronal of Myth Drannor instead. It is then officially planted.

As a result of this, the Retreat should end. Combine this with the destruction wrecked upon Evermeet by the Spellplague, we should have seen tons of refugee's streaming through the gate to Myth Drannor. Certainly, a chunk of them shifted into the Feywild willingly. However, an even larger chunk decided to stay behind (and according to the FRCG: '"dispersed to the new continent of Returned Abeir or
traveled to Faerûn.").

Not one mention of the Tree of Souls. The bulk of those Elves who remained behind would have CERTAINLY gone to Myth Drannor. I mean, why wouldn't they? The freakin' Tree of Souls is there - that's the point of planting it!
Go to Top of Page

Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  17:34:46  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

This is why what happened in Thay is a RSE. It (should) have the potential to have consequences that reach far beyond the nation itself.
(highlight mine) See? You cannot even provide a concrete consequence that (going by the notion of RSE) nuked, altered, shook, or disrupted a realm other than Thay itself. A potential is not good enough (for me). That's just like saying anything major that happens in a realm—whatever realm—would ultimately affect the world at large.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

We don't really know what the consequences of the Civil War were . . .
Precisely. How can something be an “event” (an actual consequence) when it hasn't and probably won't happen?


You're ignoring my argument entirely.

I'll quote the last bit of my previous post:
quote:
The same issues exist for the events surrounding Thay. The consequences, which the lore demands should happen, are either hand-waved away or ignored. This is because the consequences have the potential to be much bigger than the event itself. This is the lore malpractice equivalent of killing Mystra, and only detailing what happened to her Church and the Chosen, meanwhile ignoring the impact it had on magic as a whole.


Nothing happens in a vacuum. There are ALWAYS consequences to your actions. Some of those consequences are large and some of them are small. I don't think anyone is going to argue that the consequences of a Thayan Civil War - based upon the pre-existing lore prior to that civil war - wouldn't have a dramatic impact on the politics and economics of (at a minimum) Thay's neighbors.

One of the primary reasons given for Thay not being successful in its conquest ambitions, is the fact that it was so internally fragmented. It is now unified under a single ruler - Tam. Why doesn't this change the political calculations of Thay's neighbors?

Thay, at that exact moment, is weakened by both civil war and the events of the Spellplague. Are you going to make the argument that Thay's neighbors - for the next 100 years - sat on the side lines and did nothing while Thay slowly recovered and rebuilt?
Go to Top of Page

Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  17:50:07  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

It's perfectly conceivable that a loose coalition of rebel enclaves could work together to seize control of a city. Imagine them, for example, coordinating to seize control of Raven's Bluff. Funds that they would otherwise be channeling back to Thay could be coordinated for such an effort. They already have a rather strong and successful enclave located there, so it's just a matter of extending it's influence (much easier if they have additional funds and resources for other enclaves). From there they could covertly eliminate key rivals, and put the right puppets loyal to them in the right places...




Mulmaster is a more obvious choice, thinks I. They've already got a fair amount of power there.



That's true. I really find it hard to imagine that at least a handful of those enclaves didn't ally themselves together in an attempt to try and pull something like this off. Even taking into account the Red Wizard's penchant for scheming against each other, hatred and a common enemy (Szass Tam) is still something to unify around.

Frankly, I see the following happening to the Enclaves:

1. In some areas, with Thay too weak to seek retribution, the citizens take justice into their own hands and basically storm the enclaves and lynch those within.

2. A sizable chunk of them would form into a loose alliance, and would focus their efforts on local ambitions as well as the greater ambitions of the group. (The greater ambition likely being the overthrow of Tam and retaking Thay.)

3. A handful of enclaves would decide to basically go completely rogue and remain completely independent; focused on their individual ambitions. However, I think such individuals are at risk as they could become targets for retribution by the Thayan Enclave alliance.

The end result is that I think the bulk of the surviving Enclaves end up in the loose alliance. Those who refuse would likely be targets for assassination. Some such enclaves may exist, but that's likely either because the Enclave and the individual who runs it isn't valuable enough to waste resources on, or because they are too powerful to touch and the risks vs rewards just isn't worth it. This effectively eventually makes any non-allied enclave really powerful.

Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  17:54:31  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

One of the primary reasons given for Thay not being successful in its conquest ambitions, is the fact that it was so internally fragmented. It is now unified under a single ruler - Tam. Why doesn't this change the political calculations of Thay's neighbors?

Thay, at that exact moment, is weakened by both civil war and the events of the Spellplague. Are you going to make the argument that Thay's neighbors - for the next 100 years - sat on the side lines and did nothing while Thay slowly recovered and rebuilt?
No. Again, I'll go back to my first argument--my definition of an RSE is not exactly what you have in mind. And the difference is fine, really, because in the first place, even WotC didn't provide a clear-cut definition of this ever-loved and ever-hated term.

An RSE (again, for me) is not just about the restructure of the political systems of three or more realms, or about worrying which crop to grow where and when. It's an event that directly affects more than just one realm and involves any if not all of the following: massive physical destruction, gore, enslavement, disembowelment, relocation, depopulation, countless (and sometimes senseless) deaths, and dragon fart. (Okay, scratch the last one.)

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2013 :  22:17:29  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

And while everyone has the right to their opinion, I think there's more than a little nostalgia coloring the ToT for it to be in the lead.



I'm disinclined to agree. The Horde Invasion wasn't too long after the ToT, and it's not getting any love. If nostalgia was the only factor, the second oldest RSE listed should be a lot higher.



During the eighties there were literally hundreds of cartoon shows that were vehicles to sell toy lines.

Yet Transformers and G.I. Joe are the only ones being turned into hollywood blockbusters.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY
Go to Top of Page

Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2013 :  00:36:44  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

One of the primary reasons given for Thay not being successful in its conquest ambitions, is the fact that it was so internally fragmented. It is now unified under a single ruler - Tam. Why doesn't this change the political calculations of Thay's neighbors?

Thay, at that exact moment, is weakened by both civil war and the events of the Spellplague. Are you going to make the argument that Thay's neighbors - for the next 100 years - sat on the side lines and did nothing while Thay slowly recovered and rebuilt?
No. Again, I'll go back to my first argument--my definition of an RSE is not exactly what you have in mind. And the difference is fine, really, because in the first place, even WotC didn't provide a clear-cut definition of this ever-loved and ever-hated term.

An RSE (again, for me) is not just about the restructure of the political systems of three or more realms, or about worrying which crop to grow where and when. It's an event that directly affects more than just one realm and involves any if not all of the following: massive physical destruction, gore, enslavement, disembowelment, relocation, depopulation, countless (and sometimes senseless) deaths, and dragon fart. (Okay, scratch the last one.)



I think everyone here would agree that something of that magnitude is definitely a RSE. However, something that large... I'm not even sure the Time of Troubles would count as a RSE under that definition. The setting itself didn't change that much in the event. Some cities and areas sustained some damage, magic went wonky for a time (but it got better), a few deities died, a few new deities ascended, but the impact was mostly relegated to their churches.

In fact, I can only think of three events that meet your threshold. Two of them are historical, and they are the Sundering and the destruction of Jhaamdath. While I think everyone would agree that those two events are RSE level events (huge numbers of people died, entire nations crumbled, the physical land was reshaped, etc.); most people wouldn't necessarily be bothered by it as these events pre-date publication. They were setting the table for the lore and future events that we're supposed to enjoy.

The only other event that I can think of that meets this threshold is the Spellplague. Now, I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you consider other events that we've witnessed as RSE. If that's the case, then I think you'd have to refine your definition; which may in turn inadvertently catch other events in it that you don't consider are RSE.

I think we might be able to agree - as well as everyone else - that non-RSE events are self-contained, and don't really have much impact outside of their immediate location. In other words, by being self-contained there is no "shaking" going on; the event happens and if there are any major setting altering consequences they aren't immediately obvious and would take place far into the future.

This doesn't mean the events aren't important to the immediate characters involved, and the people that surround them. It also doesn't mean the events aren't meaningful and important to an organization, town, city, and in some cases at least a nation.

It literally means that the event is self-contained, and that the consequences of the event aren't going to spill out far beyond the immediate story except in rather minor ways. (Example: This noble house gains wealth and status; that noble house declines, this new organization is formed, that local group of thugs is gone, this locally important individual died, this locally important individual ascended to power, etc.)

---

Now, for me what you describe is a Realms SHATTERING Event - it's huge, it has immediate and history altering implications. It's also almost certainly unexpected. It's the lore and story equivalent of getting sucker punched in the face.

Then there are Realms SHAKING Events - which is something less drastic, but also alters the setting in some significant way. It's an event that has potential repercussions and consequences beyond the immediate event that also continue to alter the setting. In other words, the event is no longer self-contained.

These things are similar - they have a lot in common, but due to magnitude aren't exactly equivalent.

---

One of my biggest issues with both Shattering and Shaking events - at least the way they've been handled in the Realms thus far - is that those writing the stories and source books clearly understand an important fact. They understand that these events aren't self-contained; that they have major implications for the setting and lore.

But they want to have a huge event; they just don't want to deal with the built-in consequences of that event. Going back to a previous example, planting the Tree of Souls has pre-established consequences built into it. We know what is supposed to happen when you plant the Tree of Souls.

Yet, none of that happens. It doesn't even get a mention in the FRCG. Why? Because the implications would be huge.

They are engaging in these huge events that have not just immediate implications, but long range consequences some of which we simply can't immediately know... and they're hand-waving them away.

They are trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want these RSE, but they don't want to deal with the consequences of the RSE. They want to have a RSE, but they want it to be self-contained. This is inherently impossible to achieve, because you can't have a self-contained RSE - by the very nature of a RSE it isn't self-contained. The only way to do that is to hand wave away pre-established lore, and ignore the consequences of the event.

It's a bit like watching Pandora open the box, and trying to shut it before she let's all the bad stuff out. Once Pandora's Box is opened, you have to deal with the consequences of opening the damned box. You can't shut it and pretend nothing happened.

My belief is that if authors and designers were forced to deal with the consequences of blowing stuff up; they'd blow stuff up a lot less. And of course, when stuff inevitably does blow up it will hopefully jive well with the pre-established lore. The setting will be altered, but at least it'll maintain a consistency.

Go to Top of Page

Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3149 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2013 :  13:48:13  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

No vote, and my "RSE" preference would be the return of Shade, the Shadowstorm, Shadow Weave, Shadowcetera. A new (evil!) player crowding the map and a measured dose of deific influence without resorting to sloppy (and repetitive) exploding of gods and continents. Thay and the Zulkirs and Old Szass Tammy interest me as well, but their grand aspirations are always thwarted and have little lasting effect on the Realms beyond troubling a handful of heroes within their local borders.

When I set this up, I had the Archwizards/Shade on the list, somewhere between getting the list together and creating the poll, I accidentally dropped it. My bad.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
Go to Top of Page

Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3149 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2013 :  13:56:54  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And, in case you were wondering, I built my list over the idea that there had to be at least 3 novels around the concept, it had to have the impact of it would be NEWS (i.e. Azoun IV dying would be talked about on the Moonshaes, etc.), and it was a BIG idea/change. I agree with MT that they don't talk enough about the past RSE's in the fiction, it's akin to us not talking about Pearl Harbor or 9/11 a few years later.

Now, I also included the Other option because I know that my method/definition is not everyone's. So, anything you think may be an RSE, vote for other and discuss the reasons why! (And I'm really beating myself up over forgetting to put Shade on the list.)

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33987 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2013 :  15:32:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

No vote, and my "RSE" preference would be the return of Shade, the Shadowstorm, Shadow Weave, Shadowcetera. A new (evil!) player crowding the map and a measured dose of deific influence without resorting to sloppy (and repetitive) exploding of gods and continents. Thay and the Zulkirs and Old Szass Tammy interest me as well, but their grand aspirations are always thwarted and have little lasting effect on the Realms beyond troubling a handful of heroes within their local borders.

When I set this up, I had the Archwizards/Shade on the list, somewhere between getting the list together and creating the poll, I accidentally dropped it. My bad.



Speaking for myself, leaving Shade off from the list is more than acceptable. I found it disappointing in scope, poorly executed, and full of mischaracterization of existing NPCs.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2013 :  17:05:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Aldrick - I'm fairly certain that was a retcon, then. I no longer have the book, but I'm pretty sure I recall the tree was planted at the end of Evermeet: Island of Elves.

Despite my distaste for retcons, I would have to say the tree really did belong in Myth Drannor all along, and not in the Arctic circle. FR already has at least two Shangri-La's.

Funny how a 'fix' (change in lore) that we like doesn't matter to us nearly as much as those we don't like.

As an aside, I literally got nauseous when I read "One Million Elves". SERIOUSLY. I find it bizarre that a fictitious race should be able to effect me physically. Thats about 999,980 more elves then any setting needs.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

It's perfectly conceivable that a loose coalition of rebel enclaves could work together to seize control of a city. <snip>

Mulmaster is a more obvious choice, thinks I. They've already got a fair amount of power there.
AGREED.

However, I don't think they would actually seize the city, as they would be 'the power behind the throne'. I think they've always been more subtle then the Zhents, and they also saw what happened to the Zhents (on that same body of water) when they were too overt. It would suit their purposes far better to remain in the background.

EDIT: I've been thinking about starting a 'fixing Thay' thread today, but I should go looking for an old one first - I think we had one of those at least once before.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Feb 2013 17:09:39
Go to Top of Page

Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2013 :  22:49:40  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

@Aldrick - I'm fairly certain that was a retcon, then. I no longer have the book, but I'm pretty sure I recall the tree was planted at the end of Evermeet: Island of Elves.

Despite my distaste for retcons, I would have to say the tree really did belong in Myth Drannor all along, and not in the Arctic circle. FR already has at least two Shangri-La's.

Funny how a 'fix' (change in lore) that we like doesn't matter to us nearly as much as those we don't like.

As an aside, I literally got nauseous when I read "One Million Elves". SERIOUSLY. I find it bizarre that a fictitious race should be able to effect me physically. Thats about 999,980 more elves then any setting needs.


Yeah, I agree. I'm pretty sure it was a full out retcon, but I don't mind so much. Planting the Tree of Souls in Myth Drannor makes better sense, but not only that it is a great source of conflict.

ROFL. I hear you on the number of elves. I'd feel the same way, if they were similar to how the current group in Myth Drannor is portrayed. However, I have a dark and not-so-secret love for the Eldreth Veluuthra. My three favorite character and organization archetypes: insane bigots, insane religious zealots, and political Machiavellians. Give me a character or group who can touch on all three, and I'm in love.

Anyway, I didn't pull that number out of my butt. According to the 3E FRCS, there are 1,658,880 elves living on and around Evermeet. There is another 21,051 Elves living in and around Evereska. Both were trashed in my version of the Spellplague, but the Elves living in Evermeet were already coming to Myth Drannor in large numbers to help reclaim the forest, city, and rebuild what could be rebuilt. Some of the Elves who were returning were the same elves who fled Myth Drannor as refugees, and many of the first few waves were descendants whose parents fled. This is their homeland and they're retaking it.

They are able to move to and from Evermeet through the gate provided by the Tree of Souls. That's where they were getting the bulk of their supplies, trade, and the like.

I assumed, all told at the time of the Spellplague, that around 25,000 Elves from Evermeet were in Myth Drannor. As word spread across Faerun that the Tree of Souls had been planted, and that Myth Drannor had been reclaimed Elves from all over began making a pilgrimage. This was a huge event. Elves who couldn't afford to travel there as a family were scraping enough money together to send their sons and daughters, telling them about how it was their time to shine for their people, that they were about to enter into a golden age not seen since before the Crown Wars...

...then it all went to hell as conflicts broke out with the humans of the region (for many different reasons), and then the Spellplague happened and things went in a completely unexpected direction for everyone involved.

Evermeet and Evereska ended up pretty much uninhabitable. There was no Feywild shift in my Realms. The Spellplague worked differently in my Realms than in canon, and there were some very bad consequences for the Elves due to their unique connection to the Weave. Nearly one third of all Elves on Toril died in a matter of years. It was like witnessing the Black Death - one out of every three people you knew as an elf ended up dead. This also ultimately resulted in a split between the Elves with some of them becoming what they referred to as the Eladrin. (The Eladrin control Myth Drannor.) To them, the Eladrin are the "true" Elves.

I figured that around 20% of Evermeet and Evereska Elves go somewhere other than Myth Drannor. Some, for example, choose to stay behind, others go to family elsewhere (particularly up and down the Sword Coast and across the North). I estimate that roughly 27% of all Elves die. That's 981,080 refugees from Evermeet and Evereska. I assume after the earlier immigration from Evermeet (roughly 25,000), plus the immigrated Elves from the mainland (roughly 15,000), and the massive die off of around 27%; it left Myth Drannor with a rough estimated population of 29,200 prior to the first major waves of refugee immigration from Evermeet and Evereska caused by the Spellplague. In the end, it gave me a total population post-Spellplague of 1,010,280. So, just over one million Elves / Eladrin living in and around Myth Drannor.

In the canon Realms, had the Tree of Souls been used as intended I think we'd be looking at roughly between 500,000 - 700,000 Elves in Myth Drannor during 4E. Obviously, though, that is not the case. The FRCG estimates the population of Myth Drannor is roughly 10,000 Elves. This is obviously way too small a number considering it is a stable land with the Tree of Souls located there.
Go to Top of Page

Mirtek
Senior Scribe

587 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2013 :  23:20:33  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
mainly because I can't wrap my mind around the humans in the region openly accepting a militarily powerful group just showing up and establishing a nation right there in their midst.
Well, since this powerful group is so militarily superior that the humans can't do anything but hope that they are content with just Cormanthor, they don't have many options.
quote:
Originally posted by AldrickThrow on top of this that Sembia has a historical dislike of Elves...
And a military record of losing every single military conflict they ever had against the elves
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Well of course , Mask always has a plan.
And we all know how well his plans go even while stile going as planed

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just a note, you're stating that the elves were gone from Myth Drannor for centuries. That may be true that they were gone from that particular section of the woods for that long (which noone was there pretty much that was sane because it was overrun with nasties). However, the elves left the forest in what 1357? They returned in 1374, clearing out a bunch of very bad neighbors in the process. So, not even a full human generation passed, and they had never fully left the forest (there were still elves who stayed behind).
Which is what bugs me most about their "return":_ THEY NEVER LEFT

It's as if you know a guy who talks for years about moving away, then one Monday you actually see him leave with pantechnicons and all and on Thursday you suddenly see him moving back into his "old" flat and stating "wow, I was gone so long, good to be back in town"

Edited by - Mirtek on 26 Feb 2013 23:23:58
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2013 :  23:35:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thats the problem with Elves, they take forever to do anything - they are nearly as bad as (Tr)ents. By the time they were almost halfway done with their 'retreat', a whole generation (of humans) went by and they turned around and started heading back.

What no-one knows (until now) is that the retreat was called again (a re-retreat?)... several times in fact. The Elves spent the better part of the Wailing Years walking back and forth to the Swordcoast. By the time 5e rolls around Myth Drannor is nothing more then a partial ruin filled with exhausted Elves rubbing their feet.

"Sir... I have Queen Amlaruil on the scrying crystal... what should I tell her?"

"Oh for Pete's sake, we just got here again... just hang the damn thing up."

"Won't she be angry, sir?"

"*Meh* ... we'll just tell her the fiends took out the cell tower again. She'll believe that... she hasn't been right in the head since Zoar died."





"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2534 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2013 :  04:06:50  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*shakes head* so many people seem to hate elves (and I'm probably going to get bombarded with reasons why). I'd defend them again, but I'll refrain.

Seriously, though, the reclamation of Myth Drannor was a good thing, and it's not like everything is fine and dandy. There are still monsters to fight, and elves have many enemies (apparently, including people here on Candlekeep). Too many times RSEs seem to have disastrous effects. A change can occur that has good consequences, can't it?

And I would also like to add the events in LP as an RSE, though that seems to be in the category of "no follow ups" that MT mentioned.

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33987 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2013 :  04:49:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

*shakes head* so many people seem to hate elves (and I'm probably going to get bombarded with reasons why). I'd defend them again, but I'll refrain.

Seriously, though, the reclamation of Myth Drannor was a good thing, and it's not like everything is fine and dandy. There are still monsters to fight, and elves have many enemies (apparently, including people here on Candlekeep). Too many times RSEs seem to have disastrous effects. A change can occur that has good consequences, can't it?


I have nothing against elves. But, contrary to what some others have said, the epilogue of the third Last Mythal book makes it sound like Myth Drannor is, a mere five years after being reclaimed, a settled city. That's the part I object to -- how quickly it was wrapped up.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2534 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2013 :  04:57:41  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not saying everyone does, just a lot of people, it seems. Hmmm...maybe so, and Blades of the Moonsea indicated it was fully settled. But being a settled city doesn't mean it doesn't have it's share of problems. ALL FR cities have their share of problems, be it its inhabitants or outside forces.

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33987 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2013 :  05:34:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I'm not saying everyone does, just a lot of people, it seems. Hmmm...maybe so, and Blades of the Moonsea indicated it was fully settled. But being a settled city doesn't mean it doesn't have it's share of problems. ALL FR cities have their share of problems, be it its inhabitants or outside forces.



I get that. But Myth Drannor was shattered by an invading army. The ruins then stood for centuries, affected by twisted magical effects, fiends, phaerimm, at least one lich, Zhents, adventurers, looters, and random nastybads. The physical rebuilding alone would take decades, and that's assuming that you're not contending with warped magic, nastybads, whatever traps/unwelcome mats were left by the original defenders and/or occupying nastybads, and piles of rubble affected by centuries of exposure.

You don't fix all that in a handful of years -- especially with an army.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2013 :  13:31:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Right

The end of the series made it look like 'cleaning up' Myth Drannor wasn't really hard at all... they Elves were just friggin' lazy all these years.

There are similar bits of lore elsewhere, like Bruenor and company re-taking Mithral Hall. Novels tend to make the 'armies of the past' look like a bunch of wimps. Myth Drannor was supposed to be at its height - the epitome of Elven High Magic - when it was cast down. How come the current generation was able to do what others couldn't for centuries?

And why bother when there are even more threats in the area, like the Cormanthor Drow, the Zhents, and the Shades? Were they actually waiting until they had far more enemies before attacking? The elves are supposed to be a wise, ancient race, and all I see is lots and lots of hubris and stupidity.

Its not Elves I hate - its the way they are portrayed in FR. I never had a problem with Greyhawk Elves (and still don't).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Feb 2013 15:31:24
Go to Top of Page

Mirtek
Senior Scribe

587 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2013 :  18:40:08  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The physical rebuilding alone would take decades,
Assuming they do rebuild merely physical and not quickening it considerably by using magic.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert and that's assuming that you're not contending with warped magic, nastybads, whatever traps/unwelcome mats were left by the original defenders and/or occupying nastybads, and piles of rubble affected by centuries of exposure.

You don't fix all that in a handful of years -- especially with an army.
It's an army of Evermeet finest. All those high level mages, warriors, clerics and bladesingers finally having something other to do than enjoying the beaches of Evermeet

I am actually surprised that a 100 years later there's still so much to do (as per LFR), really lazy elves indeed
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How come the current generation was able to do what others couldn't for centuries?
Well, it's not as if the army that took Myth Drannor stayed around to occupy it until the crusade took it back. The city fell, it was looted and the army left. There were just stragglers left in the ruins. Sure, these mere stragglers were enough to prevent retaking by some mere bands of adventuriers, but it's not as if a real army ever tried before

Edited by - Mirtek on 27 Feb 2013 18:43:10
Go to Top of Page

The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2223 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2013 :  21:28:17  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They also had the VERY big advantage of the Phaerimm not being there any more (at least in large numbers). Shade's crusade against the phaerimm eliminated that problem.

In my mind this leaves the Devils/Fiends as the biggest problem in Myth Drannor. In the books Sarya even is summoning more, but the major change she makes is changing the part of the mythal that keeps the major ones bound there (instead of wandering all over Faerun) so she can use them as part of her army. Frankly I think they are portrayed as FAR to easy to kill, but other than that I'm cool with it.

My biggest issues with that book all have to do with the resurrection of Fflar. Its one of my biggest problems of a lot of the 3rd edition books: they are all about filling in the blanks. In The Ruins of Myth Drannor box, Captain Fflar, and even the "Spoiler-laden" Fall of Myth Drannor supplement left Fflar be a mystery, most completely described here:

Captain "Fflar"
(LG ?m Warrior?)
The Captain's true name and race are long lost, as descriptions of the hero vary to fit the race that tells it; bards of all stripes sing of Fflar being a human paladin, an elf bladesinger, or even a half-elf ranger, and all insist that their versions of the legends are the truth. Of course, only those who stood by Fflar's side under his command on those last dark days know the truth, and of them, few survived the Final Fall.


This never needed to change and his presence did basically nothing but destroy that (Any great warrior could have taken his place as adviser to the crusading priest). I also thought the whole thing with him falling in love with the other hero's girl and vice versa was stupid. If they were not elves I might have bought it, but elves are supposed to be patient. Elves are supposed to be deliberate. The whole reason she "fell out of love" with the other guy was he's too impetuous and goes off on adventures. So she then decides to be impetuous herself? Bunk. Then setting her up as Coronal was silly too.
Go to Top of Page

The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2223 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2013 :  22:15:56  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd go with the return of shade, mostly because it didn't change much, except adding a new dark power group...

To go through the list of them:

I talked about the Return of Elves above.

The Tuigan horde I don't think qualifies. Wars happen. Even big ones. The Realms moves on apace.

Likewise, Azoun dying is not a Realms changer - he was old anyways. I didn't like how Tana died but that speaks more to the good character creation than anything. The part of the Cormyr novels that bugged me the most was the death of the purple dragon. I think in hindsight it would have made a much more epic story arc for the dragon who killed Azoun/Azoun killed to have been the purple dragon. In my Realms the purple dragon still lives, sleeping away the centuries and coming out to rampage and feed when he wakes.

I have no idea what the Abyssal Plague is. Is that the shadow storm? I liked those books but I think too many writers are too caught up with shadows. We've got shadow magic (Harper Novels), we've got shades & the shadow weave, we've got Mask and his chosen, and I'm sure I'm missing something. Time to get creative and find a new topic to write about I'd say.

The spellplague was the biggest mistake in FR history. Nuff Said. As part of that, I'd tie in all the Major changes just prior to or during the 4th E change. Lolth's Silence, The dead Drow Gods, Thay becoming zombie-ville, Khelben dying to resurrect a group of backwaters who had been alive anyway in another form for literally thousands upon thousands of years (I mean would you say thank you?? They are all dead now forever, btw since their natural life spans would be up - well done). The Abolethic Sovereignty was all bad. The idea, the story, the back story, and the end with a big stupid spire hanging over the sea - everything.

I didn't mind the rage of dragons except it read like the author was sitting there with a Dragon Monstrous Compendium and saying ooh, this dragon is cool so lets have a chapter! Oh, and the books destroyed the rage of dragons plot forever, (I think the elves have to go remake that mythal, btw) and the mythal being phylactery bit was contrived.

Back in the day I thought the Time of Troubles was interesting, though very difficult to incorporate and adapt to. I didn't like the Cyric the Mad / Mystra the Whiney / Kelemvor the dutiful book though, or the assumption that Leira is dead (I went into depth in a thread about this before). I thought Shadows of Doom was fantastic, and turned many of the characters I barely knew into ones that will always be favorites. My LEAST favorite part of the time of troubles was the end when House Oblodra is destroyed in Menzoberranzan - simply terrible. The one truly unique drow house gone just like that. Bad Writing.

Sorry for all the negativity, but its an innately negative topic in my book... To make up for it, I'll lend my support to the Red Walker's idea above.

"voted other - the only RSE i like was the decision to run as much of new realms design as possible by Ed ...that is the only thing that gives me hope."

I had quit the realms with 4th Ed. Now I'm back and hoping it gets salvaged and all the junk from before can just get shoved into the closet and be forgotten.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 5 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2020 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000