| Author |
 Topic  |
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jan 2004 : 09:21:38
|
I was having a discussion yesterday (on another forum) with some FR players from the United Kingdom. The discussion begun about the Lady of Pain and her 'place' in the City of Doors (from the Planescape setting for those unfamiliar with this entity), and then gradually moved into a discussion about Tanar'ri, Baatezu, and their influence on the Realms, it's people, and their collective beliefs.
While I make use of these assorted fiends as a regular component of two of my more advanced FR games, I came to think about what other FR DM's and players thought about their impact (if any) on the Realms as a whole. Also, I would like to hear about your experiences with these creatures in an obvious non-planar setting like the Realms. Do you make use of the Blood War plot device?. Is their any difference between demons and devils in your campaign...or are they all just nasty blood-thirsty fiends?...Things of this general nature are what I hope this discussion will be about.
Let's hear from you...
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2004 : 11:08:53
|
I obviously dont know much about this topic, but let me post anyway
I think the bloodwar is a good device to use and should i ever get to run a campaign with demons I would certainly use it. Its use in ToB for one, was excellent
At first glance, something in me tells me there should be some distinction between Demons and Devils. Something along the lines of Devils are what commands demons. Oxford dictionary however, gives them as the same thing, so who is to say. I guess one distinction I could make, would be that based on pure imagery, I would say a Demon is more shadow and a devil is more fire if that makes any sense... |
MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
 |
|
|
kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2004 : 13:00:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
<SNIP> ... I would like to hear about your experiences with these creatures in an obvious non-planar setting like the Realms. Do you make use of the Blood War plot device?. Is their any difference between demons and devils in your campaign...or are they all just nasty blood-thirsty fiends?...Things of this general nature are what I hope this discussion will be about.
Let's hear from you...
My party has encountered demons in the Realms (it's difficult to go to Myth Drannor and not encounter them). I've not, however, used the Blood War in a plot based in the Realms.
My party have travelled quite extensively throughout the Planes, however, and have met demons "recruiting" for the Blood War - particularly a couple of months ago when they travelled to The Abyss.
I wouldn't use the Blood War directly as a plot device but have done indirectly (ie the party have travelled where there is an increased chance of "involuntary recruitment").
|
|
|
|
Naroon Shimmerflow
Learned Scribe
Norway
104 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2004 : 13:50:04
|
My DM and our players have enqountered demons and devils in FR a lot of times, but never without meaning. my DM never puts a spesific creature on an location without a reason. I think this is importan to the flow of the game.
There is also a big difference between Demons or Devils, there is a reason for the blood wars, they are different and do not like eatch other.
Sometimes the devil/demon is part of the plot othertimes we get entangled into some other mess we can`t realy handle
what i am trying to say is that i think it`s smart not to just throw in a demon or devil into the game just for fun, but have some thought about why and how when dealing with these creatures.
well... thats my thought about the topic..
Another round of ale to everyone!!, it`s on me.
|
Good dice rolls, beats good tactics anytime[/size=1] |
|
|
|
Cherrn
Learned Scribe
Denmark
323 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2004 : 13:55:49
|
Well I haven't used that many fiends and demons in my campaigns but still there is one difference between em I think.
You encounter a summoning circle, within it is trapped a fiend most foul. It roars to you in the common tongue: "Release me and I shall grant you power!"
Here comes the difference IMO, you release the fiend, it proceeds to grant you some power.
You encounter a summoning circle, within it is trapped a demon most foul. It roars to you in the common tongue: "Release me and I shall grant you power!"
You release the demon, it proceeds by maiming you in several horrible ways, then kills you slowly, not for fun, but for pleasure.
I think that's a difference between em :) |
A wise man from Calimport once told me: "If a merchant puts sand in the flask of oil he's trying to sell you, then he isn't trying to sell you sand..." |
|
|
|
Brother Ezra
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2004 : 14:30:46
|
I've used demons extensively in a campaign I've designed in Damara and Narfell. Old Goat-Head has a lot to do with it, but the primary goal of the campaign is to prevent an ancient hoard of demons, imprisoned since the fall of Narfell, from escaping into the Realms and wreaking havok.
I haven't much truck with devils. A little too urbane for my tastes. I've used the concept of the bloodwar in past campaigns, but only as background information. None of it had any direct impact on the campaign. |
"Suffering is the touchstone of all spiritual growth."
-St. Sollars the Twice-Martyred |
|
|
|
Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2004 : 20:17:33
|
actually if you check the FRCS (i think) it will tell you that demons are much more chaotic than devils. (ex: Demons CE, Devils LE)
They're both evil, its just that demons from the Abyss are more like "I'm gonna kill or torture everything in a 5 mile radius because i want to!" kind of creatures. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
|
|
|
Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2004 : 22:48:53
|
| actually im surprised no1 has posted this since many scribes posted in this topic. 1 of the main differences between demons and devils are: demons r from the Abyss while devils r from the Nine Hells |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
|
|
|
Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2004 : 01:00:10
|
| And Sage, Yes, I have taken advantage of the Blood War for many of my campains |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
|
|
|
Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2004 : 01:06:25
|
I do keep the distinctions between fiends, demons, devils, and yugoloths fairly distinct. On occasion, some of my FR parties have run into minor offshoots of the Blood War, but nothing major. I do use them(and their various fiendish offspring, such as baphitaurs and tanarukk) in other ways, ranging from the heart of evil organizations and such, to simple dungeon encounters on occasion.
|
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2004 : 06:06:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Naroon Shimmerflow
...There is also a big difference between Demons or Devils, there is a reason for the blood wars, they are different and do not like eatch other...
Actually, that it has less to do with 'liking each other' than it does with trying to determine the true 'face of evil' for the lower planes...whether it rest with LE Baatezu, or with the CE Tanar'ri. Remember that the Blood War's singular purpose is to decide who will rule as the ultimate force for Evil in the Outer Planes.
Brother Ezra said -
quote:
Old Goat-Head has a lot to do with it,
I assume who are talking about Orcus?.
Dracandos the Spellsage said -
quote:
1 of the main differences between demons and devils are: demons r from the Abyss while devils r from the Nine Hells
I really would not call that a difference. It is more of a case of saying that both races fill their respective moral voids in keeping with the eternal order of balance in the planes. Having CE Tanar'ri, is just a necessary as having LG Archons...they are required as part of the cosmological makeup.
Arivia said -
quote:
I do keep the distinctions between fiends, demons, devils, and yugoloths fairly distinct.
Actually I like to keep my Yugoloth encounters and influence in the Realms as separate from the rest of the fiendish races as possible. For me, the Yugoloth's occupy their own special place on the lower planar system of ranking...'in the game' so to speak, but also 'outside of the game' as well, taking advantage of each and every situation.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Naroon Shimmerflow
Learned Scribe
Norway
104 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2004 : 08:14:39
|
A very good point Sage. i have`nt thought of it that way before, everyone part of the big plan kind of thing. I quess there is a reason for you being a Sage and all
Let me buy you a ale Sage |
Good dice rolls, beats good tactics anytime[/size=1] |
|
|
|
The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2004 : 14:47:32
|
Ok, just a few moments Have I before class, however... I am compelled to say something. In the last game I was in we did deal with a tanar'ri, which became the central plot as we were continually on the run from a Marilith. Anyways, if done right, there is no Tanar'ri for fun's sake if done well. More so, I would prefer to see more on the Great conflict Between Celestials and Fiends than the blood war. However, it can be seen that Baatezu and Tanar'ri are by principles diffrent. The Baatezu see (I believe) veiw themselves as more of a nobility than anything eles, they are lesser in number, yet they maintain that unlike Tanar'ri they have a code of Honor (not that you'd turn you back on them, but tis slightly more safer than a Tanar'ri). the Tanar'ri could be see themselves as a more dominant race (as they are great in number). Like Sage said, it boils down to who is more 'evil' than the other... Yet neither side can really agree on what makes evil, well evil.  . I disagree that Yugoloths are separate (although they are themselves a separate offshoot). They are the NE of the group. Although I hear they make a good profit as mercs in the Blood War.... Well there it tis. |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
|
|
|
Brother Ezra
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2004 : 02:08:02
|
Brother Ezra said -
quote:
Old Goat-Head has a lot to do with it,
I assume who are talking about Orcus?.[quote]
Yes indeed, the screamin' demon, the abyss that can't miss, author of "1001 Things to do When You're Dead", old bloatie goatie himself, he travelled over 120 levels of hell just to be with us here tonight, none other than the prince of the undead
(...drumroll...)
O R C U S ! ! !
(thunderous applause) |
"Suffering is the touchstone of all spiritual growth."
-St. Sollars the Twice-Martyred |
|
|
|
Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2004 : 02:43:14
|
| Well, hes dead, so we dont have to worry about him |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
|
|
|
The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2004 : 06:29:04
|
| Yes but reports of his true death have been grossly exaggerated... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2004 : 13:40:14
|
There was a nice little PDF floating around a while ago called "A Brief History of Orcus". It collected together nearly all of the Orcus references from every published product, and created a small file which details his 'near'-complete history.
I can't find the website that offered the download, but if anybody is interested in a copy, let me know, and I'll email a copy of the file that I have, out to you.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Brother Ezra
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2004 : 13:51:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Well, hes dead, so we dont have to worry about him
Ah, but the reports of his demise have been greatly exaggerated. After slaying a few pissant gods (see Planescape: Dead Gods), old goatie's got his stick back, and is back with a vengeance. |
"Suffering is the touchstone of all spiritual growth."
-St. Sollars the Twice-Martyred |
|
|
|
Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2004 : 16:31:39
|
| Oh i want the thing about the demon\god i bet it wil be funny to read. |
|
|
|
Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2004 : 20:28:20
|
If that weakling Kairansalee could kill him, then my deity Vhaeraun could put him down without a sweat..... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
|
|
|
Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2004 : 02:51:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
There was a nice little PDF floating around a while ago called "A Brief History of Orcus". It collected together nearly all of the Orcus references from every published product, and created a small file which details his 'near'-complete history.
aye i have that scroll as well...n here it is 4 all 2 scribe down http://www.necromancergames.com/pdf/HistoryOfOrcus.pdf |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
|
|
|
Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2004 : 20:35:06
|
What happen to demons and devils when the die ? and could they be brought back to life ?
|
|
|
|
Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2004 : 20:43:01
|
When demons or devils die on the prime material, they are banished back to the nine hells or the abyss for 100 years. When demons or devils die on their home planes, they are gone without a chance of ressurrection....
I hope that answers your question. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 05:30:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Cyric
What happen to demons and devils when the die ? and could they be brought back to life ?
I'll just add a little to what Shadowlord has already said -
In most cases, those demons and devils who die, or fail in their respective duties upon the Material Plane, are often sent back to their home plane (and demoted in rank if the failure is particularly negative). The whole issue itself may be moot anyway. Some planar scholars believe that demons and devils are born from the plane itself, give form and shaped by those born previously. So when fiend dies, it really doesn't have an essence or soul that travels back to the plane from whence it came. It is simply reformed, and sent on it's way again.
This type of subject often get brought up on PS boards every so often, and there is always continual debate, and endless theories on the subject. In the end I guess, that is the point. Nobody really knows what goes on when a fiend actually 'dies'...
There is a lot more too this that just what I have said. If you are really interested in this Cyric, let me know, and I'll see about sending you out some 'extra' information.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 05:36:02
|
| Hmm, thank you for clarifying that Sage. Hmmm, out of curiousity, do you live closer to Sidney or Auckland......just curious.... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 05:39:22
|
Well...I live closer to Sydney (I live in the city of Perth, on the western coast of Australia). Although, come late August, I will be living in Sydney for about 3 months so...
Why do you ask...?
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 05:41:16
|
| Hmmm, I was merely comparing time zones to see when I could catch you online at Candlekeep without inconviencing myself. It is far better to banter views back and forth with a true master of Realmslore. I believe it increases my own knowlegde of the FR. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
Edited by - Shadowlord on 21 Jan 2004 05:42:49 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
|
|
Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 05:49:27
|
| Wow, a terrible time zone comparison.....Its currently 12:48 a.m. here on the East Coast of the United States, today is the 21st, season is winter, and I am an insomniac.... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
|
|
|
Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 05:52:55
|
| Actually I had to stay up and write a huge 10 page paper for high school so here I am.....done at last. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 05:53:45
|
To complete this part of the conversation...
It's summer here, brutally hot, and I am currently in the library at my university doing some reading on David Hume before my next class...
Now I think we should resume our discussion on Demons and Devils, for I hear the distant echo of Alaundo's footsteps...and they sound angry...
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Demons, Devils, and the Realms
