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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 11:48:40
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I present these following thoughts, and points for discussion in an attempt to delve into some of the lesser known portions of Elven history...I'm hoping that those scribes who are well versed with FR planar lore will be interested in contributing to these points -
So which of the two great realms of the Elves came first? Its a tricky question, and each answer can be seen to support its own separate chain of events. Planescape's Book of Chaos simply states, "Some say that Alfheim was once a part of Arvandor, and gradually slid over into Ysgard as its people grew more concerned with honor and survival."
Lets suppose this is true--what led these Elves to take such a philosophical break from their brethren? Could it have been that after the victory of the Seldarine over the Giants in Ancient Arborea, that the ancestors of the Alfheim elves were the ones who'd taken the culture of valor and epic heroism to heart--moving into Ysgard to pursue the Giants and to absorb the battlelust that seems to radiate from the Plane? Or did the "honor" involved have something more to do with civilizing influences among the Elven Powers of Arvandor and their followers on the Prime; perhaps the Alfheim Elves saw the corruption inherent in the study of wizardry and delving into wisdom that some Elves might not have been ready for--the corruption that led to Lolth's tempting and the creation of the Drow?
On the other hand its possible that Alfheim is the older of the two, the ancestral home that reminds visitors of a time when most Elves were of the Wild rather than High variety. Perhaps the Seldarine's decision to invade Arborea and throw out the Giants in Arvandor was not met with universal support, whether speaking of Planar Elves, Petitioners or the Elven Gods. It might even go some distance in explaining the existence of Svartalfheim, Realm of the Good Drow on Ysgard's 3rd Layer. Perhaps those who never left Svartalfheim and Ysgard in the ancient times were able to avoid Lolth's corrupting influence.
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Edited by - The Sage on 06 Feb 2004 11:52:00
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 11:49:52
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The Alfheim elves feel somehow...backwards, compared to the Arvandor elves. At least to me. They don't really have a big part in Ysgardian mythology, either. They just sort of exist (in contrast, even the dwarves of Ysgard have a creation myth - they were the maggots that fested on Ymir's rotten corpse). That fact makes me feel that the Arvandor elves and the Alfheim ones should share a common heritage, at least (if they don't, then the question at hand doesn't arise).
The Seldarine are the gods of the elves. The Alfheim elves don't have gods of their own - they simply worhsip whatever Aesir that accept them. This, along with the common heritage hypothesis, suggests that the Alfheim elves used to worship the Seldarine, like all elves must have done in ancient times.
Where did the split happen, and did it happen before or after the fall? Good questions. Remarkable, even...the answer to them may be the key to a more complicated past (and let's face it, the elves have a lot of past to deal with), which opens our eyes to the possibility that the so-called 'fall' may have been over-simplified.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 11:51:16
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My understanding of Norse myth is that the Elves of the Aesir (Vanir, properly, I suppose, since those deities were "of the light", and that the deity most connected to the Alfar is Freyr, who additionally is god of the sun, which is referred to by Snorri Sturluson at the end of the Snorri Edda as "the glory of the Elves."), the (Ljos)Alfar ([Light] Elves) are very different from the Svartalfar (Dark Elves). The latter Edda actually suggests that the Svartalfar are more like Dwarves than the beautiful and graceful Elves of light identified with handsome Freyr.
If one establishes an analogy where Freyr is a representation of Corellon Larethian, then takes Norse tales into account, something curious happens. Freyr marries the beautiful giantess of the earth, Gerd, but their relationship is not at all a willing one. Does this suggest that Araushnee was never a willing bride to Corellon? While there are some parallels, I would not push the representation too far, even though Freyr is supposed to be undone by his love, indirectly when he is forced to battle the lord of the fire giants on Ragnorok without his trusty sword, which he gave up in the pursuit of the wife who never loved him.
I wrote earlier -
quote:
On the other hand its possible that Alfheim is the older of the two, the ancestral home that reminds visitors of a time when most Elves were of the Wild rather than High variety. Perhaps the Seldarine's decision to invade Arborea and throw out the Giants in Arvandor was not met with universal support, whether speaking of Planar Elves, Petitioners or the Elven Gods. It might even go some distance in explaining the existence of Svartalfheim, Realm of the Good Drow on Ysgard's 3rd Layer. Perhaps those who never left Svartalfheim and Ysgard in the ancient times were able to avoid Lolth's corrupting influence.
In the Norse ordering of planes it is interesting that Alfheim is up at the top, with Vanaheim and Asgard, in the godly precints. The land of giants, Jotunheim, is in the middle precints, nearer to men (Midgard), Dwarves (I forgot the name), and the land of the Dark Elves, Svartalfheim. Could this mean that the Svartalfar, being on the same level as the Jotun (Frost and Mountain giants, maybe some others; not fire giants, right?) were less likely to war with them, whereas the superior feeling Alfar in Alfheim had no such connection to their philosophical lessers?
Again, answering some of my own points -
quote:
Where did the split happen, and did it happen before or after the fall? Good questions. Remarkable, even...the answer to them may be the key to a more complicated past (and let's face it, the elves have a lot of past to deal with), which opens our eyes to the possibility that the so-called 'fall' may have been over-simplified.
Moreover, I suspect the Elves and the Seldarine don't want anyone looking either.
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 13:29:17
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| where did you learn this i have not heard any thing about this ? |
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Naroon Shimmerflow
Learned Scribe
Norway
104 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 13:50:06
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impressive Sage
so what you are saying is that the greators (authors) of the seldaring read Norse Mythology and kind of copy itinto the AD&D world (D&D)?
this is all a very intresting theory. but if thats the case, who are Odin, Loki and Thor? these are three very important gods in the old Norse Mythology?
my norse mythology is a bit rusty, but Freyr is a she, the godess of birth and earth,(I think, can`t quite remember ) but that`s no problem because Corellon is both sexes
and Jotunheimen is Norways Alps, svartalfar is drak or black elfs i old Norwegian.
anyway, actually this has not that much to do with youre topic, but i felt i had to write something when this is part of Norwegian history
and Cyric, shame on you you should have known some of this, this is mandatory in our norwegion class at high school.  |
Good dice rolls, beats good tactics anytime[/size=1] |
Edited by - Naroon Shimmerflow on 06 Feb 2004 13:51:36 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 16:31:30
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Perhaps he was referring to the D&D section, not the Norwegian mythology.
Anyway, you're getting Freyr mixed up with his sister, Freya. She was the pretty one.
As for the rest, you're also confusing Sage's questions and hypothoses with a suggestion that the Seldarine and Norse myth has had a one-to-one transfer. It hasn't. Though, if you want to find some others, then there's Tyr, Cyric's a Loki, and then there's that Fenris-analog running around the planes . . . .
All the D&D cosmologies and pantheons are based somehow on existing myths from our world. If you take a look, you'll see that some are more obvious than others. In the strongest example, there's the Deities and Demigods tome, where D&Dized versions of the Norse, Greek, and Egyptian pantheons can be found. (The latter being the Mulhorandi pantheon as whole cloth, I belive.) |
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Naroon Shimmerflow
Learned Scribe
Norway
104 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 04:15:09
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hmmm... maybe i should have read what Sage had written a bit better, you are so right Bookwyrm, so sorry, i quess i got a bit eager.
anyway, interesting topic
so if everyone could please just forgett this little embarrassing incident, that would be fine |
Good dice rolls, beats good tactics anytime[/size=1] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 08:27:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyric
where did you learn this i have not heard any thing about this ?
From a number of many different setting sourcebooks, as well as my own thought-processes...
Bookwyrm said -
quote:
Perhaps he was referring to the D&D section, not the Norwegian mythology.
I was, at least to an extent. There are still a few more points I wish to discuss, but I don't have the time to post them at the moment.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 08:30:30
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Oh, and just so there's no confusion...My reference to the realm of Alfheim has little to do with the Mystaran realm of the same name.
Here's some information on that realm to denote the differences (what little there are) -
quote:
Alfheim, a kingdom of elves found in Canolbarth Forest, surrounded entirely by the mercantile nation of Darokin. During the turmoil of the Wrath of the Immortals, Alfheim is overrun by their shadow-elven cousins and twisted into Aengmor.
That should explain it then...
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Arvandor and Alfheim
