| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Jan 2004 : 09:21:38
I was having a discussion yesterday (on another forum) with some FR players from the United Kingdom. The discussion begun about the Lady of Pain and her 'place' in the City of Doors (from the Planescape setting for those unfamiliar with this entity), and then gradually moved into a discussion about Tanar'ri, Baatezu, and their influence on the Realms, it's people, and their collective beliefs.
While I make use of these assorted fiends as a regular component of two of my more advanced FR games, I came to think about what other FR DM's and players thought about their impact (if any) on the Realms as a whole. Also, I would like to hear about your experiences with these creatures in an obvious non-planar setting like the Realms. Do you make use of the Blood War plot device?. Is their any difference between demons and devils in your campaign...or are they all just nasty blood-thirsty fiends?...Things of this general nature are what I hope this discussion will be about.
Let's hear from you...
|
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 08:35:18
quote:
Originally posted by Cyric
was not nergal that child ? since he was the true ruler of hell or so he said
No...However should the opportunity for advancement among the hierarchy of the Hells ever come into consideration, Nergal will have a possibility to move into a position of greater power, along with thousands of other archdevils...mind you
|
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 17:20:59
Cyric, every devil in Hell saids he/she is the true ruler of Hell. Lol. Nergal is just a really powerful archdevil. He doesn't have an official position like the Nine Lords. |
| Cyric |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 13:24:36
was not nergal that child ? since he was the true ruler of hell or so he said |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 11:59:28
No, that seems pretty well structured Cardinal, you have apparently covered all the lords...
However -
quote:
Prince Levistus, Newly re-instated Lord of the fifth ( Geryon was appearently disposed during the Reckoning, A revolt led against Asmodeus by the other lords, Note Levistus was the former Lord of the Fifth, but was sealed away for transgretions against Asmodeus)
There has been quite a lot of contention on this point within the PS community ever since these news came to light. I've got to find the relevant post from another forum (so I can post it here) so you can see where some of the issues with Levistus current status have came from...
|
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 05:18:47
Although we did slip up earlier, we said no such thing that these are now current rulers of the Nine Hells, forgive us if that's how it came across. We shall explain, such names ( more specifically Lucifer) has been mentioned that was a former lord of the Pit (of sorts). For producing offspring with afforementioned Batna, upon another plane, with out direction of Asmodeus, and for treason (at least appearently), Lucifer and Batna were appearently consumed. as for their offspring (Unknown). We believe twas mentioned it twas destroyed. Current Rulers of the Nine hells are as follows (plus a VERY brief history of the lords):
Bel (former lord of the First Zariel, is whispered to be imprisoned somewhere in the Bronze Citadel as Bel siphons power from her)
Dispater Lord of the Second,
Mammon The Lord of the Third,
Lord Belial and Lady Fierna Lords of the Fourth
Prince Levistus, Newly re-instated Lord of the fifth ( Geryon was appearently disposed during the Reckoning, A revolt led against Asmodeus by the other lords, Note Levistus was the former Lord of the Fifth, but was sealed away for transgretions against Asmodeus)
The Hag Countess Lady (?) of the Sixth, (earned the title during the Reckoning, although disposed, Moloch is MIA, plotting revenge likly)
Baalzebul, Lord of the Seventh (once a Archon named Triel)
Mephistopheles, Lord of the Eighth, Lord of Hellfire,
and Asmodeus still reigns as Lord of the Ninth
Anyways, if any one can see errors, then by all means correct us. Even we can have an off day |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 04:34:00
Cardinal, Lucifer, Lucifuge, Malbolge, Batna aren't rulers of the Nine Hells. The current rulers of the Nine Hells are: Dispater, Mephistopheles, Mammon, Asmodeus, Baalzebul, Geryon, Moloch, Belial, and one more person that I forgot. |
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 02:11:43
After beginning to read Eliminster in Hell, (which to us, appears like it's going to be a hard read mostly because we'll get fed up with it and put it down... only to pick it up again later cause there be nothing else to read, and get fed up and put it down, then go back... tis a vicious cycle). Anyways, to return to my main point, It appears that there have been quite the collection of ancient Devil Lords (archdevils) that have ruled various layers in the Nine Hells. Illustrious names such as Lucifer, Lucifuge, Malbolge, Batna just to name the few. This therefore raises the question. The offspring of a Archdevil and another archdevil, seems to cause Asmodeus no end of worry. The question is, Why does such offspring terrify the Lord of the Nine so? A threat of greater power that could destroy the Lord of the Nine himself? A few of the names seem to only strengthen some facts in the BoVD. An interesting turn of events... |
| Cyric |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 00:22:17
not to nagg but it has ben a long time now shadowlord... |
| Jacinth Greyfox |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 18:55:14
Yes Edain, I think Planescape made clear in the grand scheme of things our Prime material Plane (one of many worlds) is insignificant to the most powerful Fiends not even worth opening up as a diversionary front. As far as they are concerned the lower planes are the centre of the Multiverse. Which is why many of the more ahem .."exotic" Fiends will never be encountered in Faerun.
In my FR games i tended to avoid the Heartlands and concentrated my adventures in the North pre-Silver Marches. As a consequence over confident players tended to develop an unhealthy interst in Hellgate Keep. Very Unhealthy ....
Also i certainly never used Fiends as wandering monsters or casual encounters they were always placed carefully in adventures. |
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 17:29:14
Few Elves who took part in the Weeping War will ever forgot the word yugoloth, that is if any of them still lived. Ironic that though the City of Song outlived the glutenous Empire of Netheril, it was the Netherse, whom we cursed for their short-sightedness and wasteful ways, who would seal our doom. But, I digress; yugoloths are arguably the smartest fiends in all the Outer Planes, and also the most secretive. A truely dangerous combination. Take this advice from someone who has spent a fiar amount of time around yugoloths, your best bet in life is to simply never make them aware of your presence. Do not hire them, fight them, make them mad, or anything else that would hint you exist int he same multiverse as them. You see a yugoloth never forgets.
Yes, yugoloths are the Neutral Evil fiend in the Lower Planes. Essentially yugoloths are the mercenaries of the Lower Planes, fighting on all sides of the Blood War, for the baatezu, tanar'ri, others, or themselves. They are somewhat enigmatic, but do form into a fairly rigid hierarchy like most fiends. Really anyone with something a yugoloth wants can retain their services, but be careful as most of the more powerful yugoloths are twice as smart as the smartest of tanar'ri or baatezu (except for the Lords of the Nine and others of the like). If you are really interested in yugoloths you will have to check out some old Planescape procucts, as they have the best information about the lives, habits, society, sociology, and homes of the yugoloths, baatezu, and tanar'ri. Yugoloths in particular are not well detailed in other products outside the Planescape family mainly because they are the least likely to come to the Prime Material. In general they work in the Outer Planes, laregly meddling with the Blood War. |
| Cyric |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 14:51:38
Those yugoloths what are there deal they are ne if am not mistaken. |
| Crust |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 12:48:07
I make use of demons and devils (and my players know the difference), however, I typically only use them as lackies and summoned servants of more powerful beings.
To me, FR contains so many super powers that demons and devils would find it hard to really thrive in that material realm. Most archwizards and powerful clerics could bring even a pit fiend under their heel with a few spells, not to mention the undeinable power of creatures such as the phaerimm and dracoliches.
I had my group battle a pit fiend once in the recent past. It was serving an epic-level vampire blood magus. When the PCs finally face Vlaakith the Lich-Queen, maybe I'll throw Belzemmir at them: a cournugon rogue5/fighter4 with improved whirlwind attack and blinding speed.
I don't have demons and devils ruling nations (except for that pit fiend who has a hold on Scyllua). They're bodyguards and servants. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 09:08:54
Great post Edain. I thorough enjoy any tales you relate of the adventures of Shadowstar... |
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 05:00:37
quote:
Originally posted by Cyric
is For Duty or Deity a book ? and when am i getting that info Shadowlord ?
Cyric, I am trying, but I have a report due. Ask Ezindir, it may take a while, but I always get the email in. |
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 04:21:49
First, I think For Duty & Deity puts it nicely when is says what happens if you party fails the adventure.
quote:
Originally from For Duty & Deity by TSR:
If the PCs failed in their attempt to rescue her (see below), another group of heroes assembled by the Holycoin successfully frees Waukeen from captivity. The goddess reveals her return to her church (and the rest of Faerūn) on the 24th of Nightal, 1370 DR. This day becomes an official festival for the worshipers of Waukeen.
So, essentially, regardless of success or failure in the adventure Waukeen returns in DR 1370 and becomes a goddess again. Now, onto the demons and devils, those collectively call the 'the fiends'. First, for anyone who wants some neat info on the fiends, the Nine Hells and the Abyss, and the Blood War, you should check out Hellbound: The Blood War a Planescape product that describes it quite interestingly, particularly how you should never call a baatezu a demon or a tanar'ri a devil, if you want to live very long. As far as my Forgotten Realms campaigns go I have never had much spillover of the Blood War into the Toril. In general I think the Blood War does not spill over much into the Prime Material worlds, simply because the Outer Planes are so vast as to adequately contain most of the direct conflict. Not to mention fiends are rather uncommon on most Primes, namely Toril, and even where they are abundant the baatezu and tanar'ri do not mix much on Toril, as they are so rare.
In my campaigns most of the interaction with fiends occurs outside of Toril. Occasionally we make a trip to Myth Drannor, where many yugoloths and tanar'ri reside or come across an occasional rogue summoned fiend, but mostly the interaction with demons is confined to the Planes. The exception to that is Edain Shadowstar, who early in life earned the enmity of Asmodeus, the Lord of the Ninth Layer of Baator. For several millennia Asmodeus had Edain hunted across the planes, even capturing him a few times. Eventually, when the attacks while on Toril escalated to truly immense proportions certain members of the Seldarine intervened to dissuade Asmodeus from continuing his hunt. The Archdevil would still like to flay Edain alive, but Shadowstar has grown to powerful to attack outside of Baator.
Edain, and other PCs on mine, have had direct experience in the Blood War, fighting in its battles, in all the Lower Planes. Shadowstar is a minor legend amongst certain parts of the Lower Planes for his rampant destruction of fiendish forces after the Fall of Myth Drannor (apparently he carried his grudge with him on that trip to the Planes). Other PCs have fought in the Lower Planes and encountered the intrigues of fiends throughout the Planes as well, but Edain Shadowstar definitely has the most experience, having spent four decades incarcerated in Baator, and three in the Abyss, and at least five decades masquerading as a high level yugoloth to learn about their society. In addition to the Archdevil, Demogorgon and the Yugoloths in general have a price on Edain's head, in addition to several of his associates, but have failed to successfully remove him as of yet.
Of the rare major interactions with fiendish forces on Toril was a campaign involving a large cult of Asmodeus, which the PCs came into major conflict with. The cult was engaging in an ritual to summon a high-ranking scion of Asmodeus to the Realms to bring destruction and such to the Realms, however they failed, but managed to turn two of our PCs into baatezu and forced the other to banish them to Baator. Fun stuff, no? I can probably come back with more examples if I go rooting through my campaign notes, but that takes a lot of time, which I do not have right now. I'll see what I can come up with.
You all know nothing of pain. Four decades of endless torture at the hands of the Multiverse's masters of pain. It was not the physical pain that left me so scarred though, it was their invasions into your psyche that scares you most. Never to confident in the safety of your own mind during you time their, can you know such a horror? Though you may enter the Nine Hells pure and righteous, the evil and pain of that place will stain and scare the most nobles of us. May the Gods have mercy on all who pass through the Gates of Baator, for those that go in never truly leave. I know I left behind a piece of my soul there. |
| Dracandos the Spellsage |
Posted - 28 Jan 2004 : 20:30:26
4 duty and diety is an adventure not a novel, but yes it is a book |
| Cyric |
Posted - 28 Jan 2004 : 19:44:29
is For Duty or Deity a book ? and when am i getting that info Shadowlord ? |
| Dracandos the Spellsage |
Posted - 27 Jan 2004 : 22:36:10
were these adventures any1 special or just some adventurers? also, can any1 confirm the year? |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 27 Jan 2004 : 04:14:29
Dracandos, Waukeen has been rescued by adventurers. It was in the AD&D/Fr adventure For Duty or Deity and she has become a goddess once again. I'm not sure but I think it was in 1370, which is 12 years after the Times of Trouble. |
| Dracandos the Spellsage |
Posted - 27 Jan 2004 : 02:45:29
speaking of which, has Waukeen been released? please excuse my ignorance in this topic. if she has been, when, how long after the Time of Troubles? |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 26 Jan 2004 : 17:18:41
Sage, I agree with you. Even though Graz'zt isn't the most powerful one, I would say he has to be one of the smartest demons. After all, he did trick Waukeen and was able to trap the Goddess during the Times of Trouble. |
| lowtech |
Posted - 26 Jan 2004 : 16:34:05
I wonder how the Baernoloths(sp) compare to the demon lords and Asmodius...or Apomps the Three-sided-one, for that matter. My biggest dissapointment with the Book of Vile Darkness is that it only mentioned Chaotic and Lawful fiends in any detail. I could be charitable and say they wanted the Yugoloths to remain a mystery for role-playing purposes, but I frankly think that Wizards of the Coast was just being lazy and greedy. Most of the target audience would buy the book as it is, and if by some chance there was a popular demand for a book on the Yugoloths (and Geherelths(sp), Night Hags, etc.)they could always publish another $33 book later. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Jan 2004 : 14:22:52
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Thank you for the info, Sage. However, you said that the Demogorgon is the most powerful (and I also quite agree!). But isn't Orcus a demigod? Wouldn't he have more power than the Demogorgon?
Remember, I said it was assumed that Demogorgon was the most powerful demon lord...it is not fact.
Anyway, Cardinal pretty much explained the situation with Orcus. Since his 'rebirth', Orcus's power has grown considerably. There is also some speculation that while Orcus was 'destroyed' his essence merged with a number of minor demon lords, with his will dominating the collective energies that were created when this merging took place. So, when Orcus returned from the 'dead' so to speak, his power and might were greater than before his 'death'. The other, more well known facts about his death are also responsible for his current state, but against Demogorgon I think he would still have some difficulty.
What I personally think however, is that Graz'zt is the forgotten factor in the power structure of the Abyss. It is a well known fact that Graz'zt has plans and schemes within plans and schemes...some of which were put into motion thousands of years ago. Who is to say what events Graz'zt has put into motion, and what type of situations are still to come. Graz'zt could have manipulated the forces of continuity so much, that the tapestry of the history of the Abyss is at his complete control. Every single event, every single choice each and every demon lord makes could have been pre-determined, and planned for by Graz'zt and his extraordinary ability to manipulate the tiniest situation to his own advantage...a very scary thought...
|
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 20:53:27
No problem Cyric, you shall have new mail the instant I become available. |
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 20:41:46
I believe that Orcus had Lost his Demi-godhood or what ever (I'm not totally up to date). It is mentioned though that the now Undead Orcus is closer to true godhood than anyother, even though he is generally thought to be a smidgen weaker. I believe the Current Triad of the Abyss puts it like this: Demogorgon - Grazzt - Orcus although Grazzt and Orcus are hard to compare to one another. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 20:19:46
Thank you for the info, Sage. However, you said that the Demogorgon is the most powerful (and I also quite agree!). But isn't Orcus a demigod? Wouldn't he have more power than the Demogorgon? |
| Cyric |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 17:51:01
yes if you could email it to me. |
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 16:55:17
Cyric, I have plenty of info about the Lord of the Ninth Hell,...... but, its far too big to post. I could email it to you, would that be preferable?
Oh, and Sage.
quote:
Oh dear.... It appears that some of the scribes here at Candlekeep have failed to properly read Alaundo's notice on "Idle Banter"...
Please my friends, try to keep these types of discussion for the ethereal mail system...
I have read that, I'm merely inquiring where said scribe lived...... |
| Cyric |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 16:32:05
Any info about Asmodeus ? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 15:12:26
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Hi, I'm a new member here and I have a question about demons. Of all the Prince of Demons (Demogorgon, Graz'zt, etc) which one is the most powerful of all? I know that the Demogorgon, Graz'zt and Orcus are all around the same though...
It is assumed by most planar scholars, and some greybeards, that Demogorgon is the strongest, most powerful Demon Lord.
Although, this is not entirely the case. By definition of it's very existence, the Abyss requires a form of order (not understood by most mortals, and those that do understand it, end up mad)...the Nine Hells moreso. In Baator, Asmodeus is the unquestioned, and unchallenged lord of all. However, in the Abyss such a logical hierarchy does not work, and often breaks down before such a system is implemented.
But as I said, the Abyss does subscribe to 'a' form of order. For example, it is generally agreed upon (and understood) by most demons that Graz'zt is an extraordinarily deceptive demon, and that challenging him (although weaker than some of his kin), will indeed lead to their defeat. Although he is not the strongest, or most powerful demon, he has the fear and respect of other demons based solely on his reputation as a master of deception and ever-shifting schemes and plots.
Getting back to the most powerful demon though...At one point in the history of the Abyss, there existed a Demon Lord called Xar'clahax...he was more a 'concept of fiendish evil' than a flesh-and-blood demon, but his power and might held all other demon lords under his sway for a period of over 1,000 years. It is not exactly known what became of this creature. Most attribute his 'fall' and disappearance to Asmodeus, again attesting to how great the Lord of the Ninth's power actually is. Others assume that the entity was nothing more than the collective consciousness of the demon lords of the Abyss, given semi-physical form, and that his disappearance was merely the result of the demon lords 'falling out' over some unresolved conflict.
The real truth (still disputed by some) however is that Xar'clahax never actually did disappear, or end up being destroyed by Asmodeus. Xar'clahax was/is a concept in essence, the concept of Chaotic Evil, and that moral/ethical position is, and always will exist...
|
|
|
