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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe

Malaysia
552 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2012 :  13:48:09  Show Profile Send Xar Zarath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Finally, thank you Markustay for pointing the drag that we know call Shar! I mean i got sick of her ages ago, she is such a pain in the "loss" if you know what i mean. Personally I want Mask back and Velsharoon though if they bring back Myrkul, I'm game for it. Though if they import Mellifleur then that would be nice too.

Karsus being the new god of magic is like handing the computer to the guy that tried to hack into it, though with 4e and all its 4eness(substitute for wacky) I would be ok with it.

Everything ends where it begins. Period.



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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Posted - 02 May 2012 :  16:33:23  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

See, I think you could say that some part of Karsus has been conscious all this time, and that that part has used the intervening years to reflect on what he did... If this part was some sort of sentience bound within the Weave, he'd also have had plenty of time to learn the nature of the Weave, and to see how it should be maintained.
I'd imagine this has been something both Mystra's have sought to "promote," as a warning to any and all other mortal spellcasters with an eye toward the usurping the divine -- " 'Ware the Folly of Karsus."

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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe

Malaysia
552 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2012 :  06:49:58  Show Profile Send Xar Zarath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So Karsus is more of a poster-boy for "DON"T MESS WITH THE MYSTRA!"?

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2012 :  06:56:58  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

On one side, yes. On the other, he's the proof that a mere mortal can be a serious threat to a greater deity.

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 03 May 2012 :  20:29:35  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath

So Karsus is more of a poster-boy for "DON"T MESS WITH THE MYSTRA!"?


-I wouldn't say so. Ultimatley, when you sit down and analyze it, Karsus bested Mystryl. It's the unforeseen consequences that came with his actions that ultimately sealed his fate. The story, like Dennis mentioned, is more of one of those mythological warning stories against challenging the gods and Human hubris and all of that. A kind of Tower of Babel analogue.

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Dennis
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Posted - 04 May 2012 :  04:40:22  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Come to think of it, if Karsus' Folly was indeed a lesson every single powerful archwizard in Toril should have learned, then Szass Tam (who wants not just to challenge one deity, but ALL, by virtue of his Ritual of Unmaking), must be such a stubborn bastard. To think, he well knew of Netheril's history, as Larloch himself told him so.

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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe

Malaysia
552 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2012 :  05:06:01  Show Profile Send Xar Zarath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe when Karsus first thought of the Avatar spell, Mystryl did not stop him because...ok lets fast forward a little...
Look at Daurgothoth(did i get that right?)the Creeping Doom. He wants to be the most powerful being there is with the goal of breeding live dracoliches. Now seems impossible but he constantly creates magic to fulfill those ends. Mystra does not tell her Chosen to do anything because the dracolich is a kind of genius that can help advance the Art. Larloch is another such case, powerful and dangerous and also helpful to Mystar, so much so that she crafts him two Nether Scrolls herself for him personally.

Now we go back to Karsus. Maybe the spell was only to channel the power of a goddess, or maybe it could have stolen it. However we must remember that Mystryl shut off the connection when Karsus could not control/regulate the Weave. So i think that she wanted him to create the spell, to further the Art, she being the Goddess of Magic, but when he proved incapable of controlling the energies she stepped in. She could have stopped him but she did not, perhaps because in the end it only made her stronger. Wizards today know of the power of Netheril and constantly seek its secrets, crafting new magics to help them obtain it...make of it as you like...

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 04 May 2012 :  05:33:48  Show Profile  Visit Dalor Darden's Homepage Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Karsus' Avatar

I believe it was inspired by Jergal. It is a canon fact that Jergal has set into motion a plan to not only rule the Gods of Faerun, but even Ao himself.

The Lord of the End is a sly dog. He would have had the power to hide what would happen...not only from Mystra, but from Karsus as well.

The wording of the spell itself should be taken into account. As far as Mystra might have thought is that the spell caused the caster to become the Avatar of a God...not completely take their place.

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2012 :  05:39:08  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath

Now we go back to Karsus. Maybe the spell was only to channel the power of a goddess, or maybe it could have stolen it. However we must remember that Mystryl shut off the connection when Karsus could not control/regulate the Weave. So i think that she wanted him to create the spell, to further the Art, she being the Goddess of Magic, but when he proved incapable of controlling the energies she stepped in. She could have stopped him but she did not, perhaps because in the end it only made her stronger. Wizards today know of the power of Netheril and constantly seek its secrets, crafting new magics to help them obtain it...make of it as you like...


It sounds contrary to the published lore. Mystryl never intended for anybody else to 'take care' of the Weave. It was only in her later incarnation as Mystra that she learned the value of having her own Chosen, who have been acting as her co-takers of the Weave, albeit indirectly.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30084 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2012 :  11:00:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Karsus' Avatar

I believe it was inspired by Jergal. It is a canon fact that Jergal has set into motion a plan to not only rule the Gods of Faerun, but even Ao himself.


And in what source is this canon fact? I ask because it's not something I'm recalling, and it really contrasts with someone that -- in canon -- got tired of his divine duties and let someone else start doing them, instead putting himself in a servile position.

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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1074 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2012 :  11:44:00  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My wote goes to Ioulaum.

The main reason for it, is simply that without him, Karsus might never have cast his Avatar spell. To me he shaped magic and the way we think of it and use it. His power and understanding of the machanics of magic was (to me) greater than almost any I can think of. With exceptions ofc: Srinshee, Larloch etc.

But without Ioulaum, I cant see Netherill becoming what it became, nor see Karsus becomming what he became. So... Ioulaum must be the most influential, both indirectly and directly!!!

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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe

Malaysia
552 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2012 :  15:00:37  Show Profile Send Xar Zarath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Without Ioulaum there would be no flying cities!!!

Everything ends where it begins. Period.



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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3338 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2012 :  15:42:43  Show Profile  Visit Dalor Darden's Homepage Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Karsus' Avatar

I believe it was inspired by Jergal. It is a canon fact that Jergal has set into motion a plan to not only rule the Gods of Faerun, but even Ao himself.


And in what source is this canon fact? I ask because it's not something I'm recalling, and it really contrasts with someone that -- in canon -- got tired of his divine duties and let someone else start doing them, instead putting himself in a servile position.



Well, I remembered incorrectly; it isn't official Canon as the material I was remembering was published by Paizo.

Dungeon Issue #130, starting on page 58 (by Eric L. Boyd); running the adventure in the Forgotten Realms:

One of his followers...Mak'ar the Spellweaver Lich...

"...Jergal is an alien God...brought to the Realms millennia ago by a pod of Spellweavers...Netherese archwizards studied necromancy with the spellweavers...founded the church of Jergal upon his return."

"According to myth...Jergal grew bored...the truth is far more sinister. Jergal harbored great ambitions to bring all the Realms under his rule, including all the other gods and even Ao, the Overgod."

It goes on to explain a long plan Jergal set into motion to evade the strictures placed upon him by Ao by creating a vessel for his plan, temporarily dividing his power to be regained later, and divesting his own mind of the idea all together so that he can avoid blame/restriction.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13839 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2012 :  16:11:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That was an adaption of a generic (POL, but it wasn't called that back then) adventure arc, so it falls under the category of 'psuedo-canon' (meaning, its can be considered canon in YOUR Realms, but not in the official Realms).

This is even more tenuous then demi-canon, which is what occurs when someone official - OTHER THEN ED - posts their own stuff outside of an official vehicle (like GK does, and Erik Boyd started doing again). We may consider it canon, and it may some day become canon, but its not really canon until its printed somewhere 'official' (and sadly, CK has no official status).

I consider it canon, only in that what is the difference between that stuff and what is printed in other sources? Either way, it can be over-written the moment someone gets it into their mind to do so (and there we have the Pandora's Box they opened - if official canon can be changed on a whim, then its pretty-much the same as fan-fic... true until proven untrue by something else).

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Come to think of it, if Karsus' Folly was indeed a lesson every single powerful archwizard in Toril should have learned, then Szass Tam (who wants not just to challenge one deity, but ALL, by virtue of his Ritual of Unmaking), must be such a stubborn bastard. To think, he well knew of Netheril's history, as Larloch himself told him so.
You reminded me of something (I think) I pointed out long-ago... that entire source can be considered hearsay, because its Larloch telling Szass tam about Netheril, and he could have easily lied about quite a bit, or left out important details (or changed the location of a sea).

There's our out for fixing Netheril in future products; after all, they plan to "open the timeline to all eras of play". let GK loose (in 5e) and have him repair all that messy lore. I don't think he'd mind getting the Arcane Age as playground. (and glue the two Wulgreths back together - having two of them with extremely similar backgrounds is just plain silly).

As for me, I'd rather do the Imaskari - I find them far more interesting.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 May 2012 16:12:57
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Lord Karsus
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USA
2885 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2012 :  17:52:58  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Come to think of it, if Karsus' Folly was indeed a lesson every single powerful archwizard in Toril should have learned, then Szass Tam (who wants not just to challenge one deity, but ALL, by virtue of his Ritual of Unmaking), must be such a stubborn bastard. To think, he well knew of Netheril's history, as Larloch himself told him so.


-Any power hungry magician who is worth his weight isn't going to let some event that happened hundreds of years ago interrupt their quest for infinite power (even if they were there and saw it all first hand).

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5664 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2012 :  19:03:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Tim Berners-Lee created the World Wide Web --


I thought Al Gore did that?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5664 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2012 :  19:07:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm inclined to say Ioulaum, but there's this part of me that says.... hey, who invented teleportation.... so I looked that up and I see that was Oberon. Certainly, Ioulaum transformed the look of Netheril, but noone can argue that instant transportation of people and items, while more mundane, was probably just as ... if not more... important.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5664 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2012 :  19:24:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

How many of us would be adverse to seeing Karsus as the new 'god of magic'?

And being dead doesn't matter, as we know by numerous canon examples.

Being a fan of GH, I wouldn't mind seeing a deity like Boccob being in-charge, but I'm partial so I was wondering how others here would feel about such a turn of events.

Because to be perfectly honest, I'm kind of sick of Mystra.... and REALLY sick of Shar. Have Karsus take-on the name of 'Mysus' or some-such, make him aloof and uncaring (certainly not a stretch), and then start down-playing Shar's involvement in everything (I like her, I am just getting tired of getting beaten over the head with her).




Seeing him over all magic would be... meh... to me. However, seeing him as a god of pact magic wielders and anima mages (binders who also learn arcane magic), now THAT would be interesting to me. If his Vestige were somehow able to get a bunch of anima mages to perform a ritual to bind his Vestige to themselves and free him. Maybe have a sect of warlocks and eldritch theurges as well who serve Karsus. Play up on the fact that he's been trapped for almost two millenia and gone somewhat darker (he was already mad...). Maybe have a priesthood who actually receives spells from him and studies arcane magic too (i.e. mystic theurges).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1426 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2012 :  19:48:10  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

If the Netherese continued to live on the ground, Mystryl's death and the temporary collapse of magic would have less adverse effects...
But if they had no mythallars, probably the whole picture would be different - they won't provoke Phaerimm to act decisively and on a large scale - or at least not that fast, and Shade couldn't hide or planeshift as a whole, without quasimagic toys they would need to develop other items, with rulers' interests closer to the ground Crown vs Scepter war could happen much sooner or later, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Karsus could have just as easily gone for Jergal or Moander. It was his arrogance that caused him to choose Mystryl.
Or perhaps Kozah.
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath

Maybe when Karsus first thought of the Avatar spell, Mystryl did not stop him because...ok lets fast forward a little... [...] So i think that she wanted him to create the spell, to further the Art, she being the Goddess of Magic, but when he proved incapable of controlling the energies she stepped in.
There were mentions that gods cannot act against their portfolio/ideals, at least if the same act doesn't directly promote these more. E.g. it was addressed that Oghma barely able to conceal anything, and managed to hide Cyrinishad only because the tome's full of it.
This also means gods who want their own backs scratched whenever needed have vassals with compatible, but different portfolio (Azuth, Red Knight, Mielikki&Eldath) or at least really value mortal servants capable of stopping in time problems the deity occasionally causes (Holly Harrowslough, Vartan Hai Sylvar, Yvonnel then Quenthel Baenre).

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5664 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2012 :  20:13:11  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

How many of us would be adverse to seeing Karsus as the new 'god of magic'?

And being dead doesn't matter, as we know by numerous canon examples.

Being a fan of GH, I wouldn't mind seeing a deity like Boccob being in-charge, but I'm partial so I was wondering how others here would feel about such a turn of events.

Because to be perfectly honest, I'm kind of sick of Mystra.... and REALLY sick of Shar. Have Karsus take-on the name of 'Mysus' or some-such, make him aloof and uncaring (certainly not a stretch), and then start down-playing Shar's involvement in everything (I like her, I am just getting tired of getting beaten over the head with her).




Seeing him over all magic would be... meh... to me. However, seeing him as a god of pact magic wielders and anima mages (binders who also learn arcane magic), now THAT would be interesting to me. If his Vestige were somehow able to get a bunch of anima mages to perform a ritual to bind his Vestige to themselves and free him. Maybe have a sect of warlocks and eldritch theurges as well who serve Karsus. Play up on the fact that he's been trapped for almost two millenia and gone somewhat darker (he was already mad...). Maybe have a priesthood who actually receives spells from him and studies arcane magic too (i.e. mystic theurges).




You know what.... after thinking about this for a little more than a couple minutes, I actually think this could prove kind of interesting in a way. Throw Karsus as having followers who are shadow mages as well (possibly even Shades who aren't fond of Telamont and Shar and wish to make their own path). Perhaps Karsus comes back, but the ritual his followers uses relies upon practictioners of both the weave and shadow weave "interweaving" their magic. This interaction creates a tear in reality to the "Far Realm" or whatever void place exists where Vestiges are trapped. It allows Karsus to come back, but with ties to the Shadow Weave. Then, he stands in opposition to Shar AND Mystra. His following would be small, and I see him being more Neutral Evil than neutral. The only thing I'd love better with this plan were if Leira were also involved in the plot and through helping Karsus return, the lady of Illusions came back... and she serves Karsus and not Mystra or Shar.... and she seeks to become the mistress of Illusions & Shadow Magic (not darkness, loss, destruction of the world, etc...).

Of course, this flies in the face of whatever they're planning on doing with Lolth with this drow uprising thing.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Posted - 05 May 2012 :  01:44:59  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

If the Netherese continued to live on the ground, Mystryl's death and the temporary collapse of magic would have less adverse effects...
The incorporation of the mythallars was only "one" aspect of the Netherese' dependence on the arcane.

Granted, the collapse of the Weave and the fall of the Enclaves was the most drastic example of the loss of magic, but it was hardly the only example.

Think of all the spells, enchantments, and other arcane practices that went awry during Mystryl's death? It's unfortunate that this hasn't received as much attention in the lore, as has the fall of the floating enclaves.

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2012 :  01:55:55  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Come to think of it, if Karsus' Folly was indeed a lesson every single powerful archwizard in Toril should have learned, then Szass Tam (who wants not just to challenge one deity, but ALL, by virtue of his Ritual of Unmaking), must be such a stubborn bastard. To think, he well knew of Netheril's history, as Larloch himself told him so.


-Any power hungry magician who is worth his weight isn't going to let some event that happened hundreds of years ago interrupt their quest for infinite power (even if they were there and saw it all first hand).


Precisely. That's why the supposed 'lesson of the story' is practically useless---the people intended to learn from it hardly care for it at all.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2012 :  02:00:58  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

If the Netherese continued to live on the ground, Mystryl's death and the temporary collapse of magic would have less adverse effects...
The incorporation of the mythallars was only "one" aspect of the Netherese' dependence on the arcane.

Granted, the collapse of the Weave and the fall of the Enclaves was the most drastic example of the loss of magic, but it was hardly the only example.

Think of all the spells, enchantments, and other arcane practices that went awry during Mystryl's death? It's unfortunate that this hasn't received as much attention in the lore, as has the fall of the floating enclaves.


When Mystryl killed herself and magic temporarily ceased to function, all magical artifacts lost their power too; and wizards could not work magic, either. But it was temporary. So while they're magically drained, at the very least, if they didn't live in flying cities, they would have been alive still, and not come crashing to the ground.

Every beginning has an end.
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe

Malaysia
552 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2012 :  07:38:04  Show Profile Send Xar Zarath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If so then the Spellplague which not only affected the Weave but also the Shadow Weave should have brought down Shade and Sakkors too right??

With the current drow uprising they should also axe Lolth. She has been around too long and for the sheer fun of it, get rid of her and see what happens to the drow!smiley face(because typing it is more fun)

Everything ends where it begins. Period.



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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2012 :  08:06:27  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath

If so then the Spellplague which not only affected the Weave but also the Shadow Weave should have brought down Shade and Sakkors too right??


Telamont was witness to the fall of Netheril when Mystryl killed herself, and understood quite well how dependent their mythallars were to the Weave. He also learned what a bunch of pesky Chosen can do to Shade's mythallar. Given that, he must have made contingencies to ensure that his city remains afloat even if the central mythallar is tampered, and/or the Weave fails. It's possible that it's fed by energies from various planes of existence.

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