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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 29 Apr 2012 :  16:11:15  Show Profile  Visit Dalor Darden's Homepage Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is no telling who could have been protecting Karsus' research from the eyes of Mystra. Shar may have been a strong influence at keeping this secret even from the Goddess of Magic...we know that later she was able to hide Cyric from Mystra in Mystra's own Realm; so apparently certain things can simply be done.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 29 Apr 2012 :  16:58:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is also the fact that the target of the spell was not a built-in feature of the spell. Karsus could have just as easily gone for Jergal or Moander. It was his arrogance that caused him to choose Mystryl.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Apr 2012 16:58:59
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jordanz
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Posted - 29 Apr 2012 :  17:52:12  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath

I think in terms of Necromancy, Aumvor is without peer, though as Dennis has already pointed out, Aumvor is still a novice as compared to Larloch, this I attribute to the Nether Scrolls.



Not saying I doubt that but what has Aumvor done(besides being really ancient) to support your "without peer" claim? Otherwise I think Szass could take him.
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Markustay
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Posted - 29 Apr 2012 :  18:05:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Deities are bound more so by their portfolios then anyone else.

Mystra's MAIN tenet is to further magic, and to help those who are trying to bring magic to new heights (regardless of alignment/intentions). Karsus was probably one of her 'favorites' (along with a few other Netherese I can think of).

Mystra cannot stop herself from allowing magical research - even if it means her doom - then Oghma could stop any research at all (see Prince of Lies), or Loviatar could try to show mercy and not harm someone when given the chance. Deities ARE their portfolios - when it comes to them, common sense is over-ridden. Their behavior is hard-wired; free-will is only available to them outside of their portfolios.

Case in point: Mystra loved The Simbul, and greatly dislike Red Wizards, yet was willing to destroy the Simbul to protect Red Wizards because they further magical research as a whole. Her own feelings in the matter were of no consequence when it came to upholding the tenets of her portfolio. Magic is to her what air is to us, and she cannot stop promoting it as much as we can voluntarily stop breathing.

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Alisttair
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Posted - 29 Apr 2012 :  19:33:55  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
KARSUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2012 :  01:19:29  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath

I voted Aumvor because where the rest of the Empire was looking outward towards the stars and beyond, he looked inward on the aspects on death and dying. He is a pioneer in the necromantic arts and is still very much so. I think in terms of sheer raw power as well as arcane necromantic knowledge he beats quite a few of the necromancers out there...


True I wonder if he and Szass Tam ever kick it.


Aumvor is beyond Szass Tam, in the same way the latter is way beneath Larloch.


Really I always saw them ar peers or rivals. Does Aumvor have feats that compare favorably to what Szass Tam displayed in Unholy?[


Aumvor's fragmented phylactery and Aumvor's soulshatter are first of their kind, and were never replicated. His long existence (far longer than Szass Tam) and vast knowledge on Netherese spellcraft are edge enough against Tam.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
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Posted - 30 Apr 2012 :  01:24:45  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

There is no telling who could have been protecting Karsus' research from the eyes of Mystra. Shar may have been a strong influence at keeping this secret even from the Goddess of Magic...we know that later she was able to hide Cyric from Mystra in Mystra's own Realm; so apparently certain things can simply be done.


If it was a deity the shielded Karsus from Mystra's attention, then that deity must be so confident that he/she would not be the target. Karsus didn't make it 'known' whose powers he'd siphon until near the last minute.

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Xar Zarath
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Posted - 30 Apr 2012 :  07:05:15  Show Profile Send Xar Zarath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe it was because a thought was implanted at the last moment he cast the Avatar spell. Some unknown force influenced him, since he was using magic, he should go straight to the source of it all. I mean from what we know, Karsus was a bit mental, not mad or insane but he had his mood swings and so on. It would not be hard to send a whiper on the wind with Mystryl's name being spoken. Karsus would probably just connected the dots on his own.

Of course if Karsus was affected, then who did it? Was this intentional? (Maybe WOTC will use this to bring some new horror into the Realms which will span books and worlds etc and usher in 5e?)

Everything ends where it begins. Period.



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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 30 Apr 2012 :  17:19:56  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

There is no telling who could have been protecting Karsus' research from the eyes of Mystra. Shar may have been a strong influence at keeping this secret even from the Goddess of Magic...we know that later she was able to hide Cyric from Mystra in Mystra's own Realm; so apparently certain things can simply be done.


-According to 3e retconny sources, Shar was the influence for Mystra to be the target in the first place, so she may have had a shadowy hand in keeping the spell's existence a secret. This, though, is in conflict with the notion that Mystra knows all spells, etc., etc.

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

The quotes Wooly provided above clearly note that Mystryl had lost control of the integrity of the Weave thanks to the Mad-Power Grab of Karsus.

So cutting Karsus off from the Weave kind of seems a little difficult when she no longer has the once-intimate ability to tweak and tinker with it, as she once did.


-Being unable to maintain the integrity of the Weave and prevent it from collapsing doesn't mean she did not retain one of her salient godly abilities to cut an individual off from the Weave. Far from a perfect analogy, but if I am having trouble keeping a network online, even as I am doing the coding and such to keep it activated, I still can regulate who can access it and who can't access it, to varying degrees.

-At the point where the connection was established and Karsus siphoning her power into himself, I don't necessarily know if she could have, as a matter of personal opinion, but...

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There is also the fact that the target of the spell was not a built-in feature of the spell. Karsus could have just as easily gone for Jergal or Moander. It was his arrogance that caused him to choose Mystryl.

-Given that the Phaerimm were destroying Netheril through magic, the obvious choice would be the deity of magic; practicality moreso than arrogance seems to have influenced that decision (ignoring 3e sources that say that Shar subtly influenced the choice of targets). In theory, sure, any deity would have given him godly powers, and with those powers, he could have taken care of business (insomuch as any deity can commit wholesale genocide with the snap of a finger). With Jergal's power, maybe he could have snapped and made all Phaerimm die. With Moander's power, maybe he could have infected all Phaerimm with some kind of waste, causing them to cease their activities against Netheril and flee. Who knows there, though. With the power of the deity of magic, even if one did not know that she possessed the ability to control who can access magic, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the power of the deity of magic would be the best power to have when a highly magical society is engaged in a campaign of genocide against another highly magical society, where magic is the primary weapon being used by both sides, against both sides.

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Edited by - Lord Karsus on 30 Apr 2012 17:31:44
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 30 Apr 2012 :  17:50:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There is also the fact that the target of the spell was not a built-in feature of the spell. Karsus could have just as easily gone for Jergal or Moander. It was his arrogance that caused him to choose Mystryl.

-Given that the Phaerimm were destroying Netheril through magic, the obvious choice would be the deity of magic; practicality moreso than arrogance seems to have influenced that decision (ignoring 3e sources that say that Shar subtly influenced the choice of targets). In theory, sure, any deity would have given him godly powers, and with those powers, he could have taken care of business (insomuch as any deity can commit wholesale genocide with the snap of a finger). With Jergal's power, maybe he could have snapped and made all Phaerimm die. With Moander's power, maybe he could have infected all Phaerimm with some kind of waste, causing them to cease their activities against Netheril and flee. Who knows there, though. With the power of the deity of magic, even if one did not know that she possessed the ability to control who can access magic, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the power of the deity of magic would be the best power to have when a highly magical society is engaged in a campaign of genocide against another highly magical society, where magic is the primary weapon being used by both sides, against both sides.



I personally would have gone for the option that enabled me to end the conflict right there, with a snap of my fingers, without any further time being wasted -- in other words, Jergal's power seems the most logical choice for someone wanting to end a war right now.

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 30 Apr 2012 :  17:55:30  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There is also the fact that the target of the spell was not a built-in feature of the spell. Karsus could have just as easily gone for Jergal or Moander. It was his arrogance that caused him to choose Mystryl.

-Given that the Phaerimm were destroying Netheril through magic, the obvious choice would be the deity of magic; practicality moreso than arrogance seems to have influenced that decision (ignoring 3e sources that say that Shar subtly influenced the choice of targets). In theory, sure, any deity would have given him godly powers, and with those powers, he could have taken care of business (insomuch as any deity can commit wholesale genocide with the snap of a finger). With Jergal's power, maybe he could have snapped and made all Phaerimm die. With Moander's power, maybe he could have infected all Phaerimm with some kind of waste, causing them to cease their activities against Netheril and flee. Who knows there, though. With the power of the deity of magic, even if one did not know that she possessed the ability to control who can access magic, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the power of the deity of magic would be the best power to have when a highly magical society is engaged in a campaign of genocide against another highly magical society, where magic is the primary weapon being used by both sides, against both sides.



I personally would have gone for the option that enabled me to end the conflict right there, with a snap of my fingers, without any further time being wasted -- in other words, Jergal's power seems the most logical choice for someone wanting to end a war right now.


-Given that we have never seen the wholesale genocide of a race via the deific snap of two fingers (hence my sarcasm), who knows if the god of the dead has this power. The goddess of magic, at the very least, has some control over magic, and one does not need to think very hard and extrapolate very far to figure that out. The power of a deity of magic would also be beneficial to Netheril after the conflict, repairing the damage the Phaerimm had unleashed and calming the people of Netheril, whereas the power of the deity of the dead would not.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 30 Apr 2012 17:56:44
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Markustay
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Posted - 30 Apr 2012 :  18:41:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what I understand of the situation -

Karsus' spell didn't really steal Mystra's power, it created a link between him and the deity, usurping her control of her power.

She did NOT cut Karsus off from the Weave (unless this was retconned) - she killed herself, thereby denying him power over the Weave (he was only connected to it through her.)

When a part of a power-grid arcs, shorts-out, or anything else is amiss, you shut-down those sections with the spike, or even the entire system, until you can bring it back under control. Karsus allowed the Weave to 'run amok' because of his lack of understanding, and Mystra literally shut herself 'off', so the system could reboot properly. This was a fail-safe built into the system, and has probably happened numerous times in the past (at least every time the rules of magic change... so every edition).

What that means is that somehow this fail-safe system was bypassed completely when she was last killed, and hopefully we will find out how such a thing could have occurred (I am trusting Ed on this).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 May 2012 15:54:35
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 01 May 2012 :  00:49:26  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

From what I understand of the situation (the Netherfall?)-

-Think of a computer. Mystra was the administrator of the "Deity of Magic" mainframe that regulated the "Weave" program. Karsus was a hacker that hacked into the system and started illegally downloading the data from the "Deity of Magic" mainframe for the "Weave" program, attempting to make himself the admin. While Mystra still had administrator access to the "Weave" program, she pulled the router cord and hot reset her PC, killing the connection that Karsus had with it. The information he was in the process of downloading was corrupted as a result (causing the weirdness that befell him, being split into various eternal, semi-divine pieces).

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The Sage
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Posted - 01 May 2012 :  01:33:12  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

The quotes Wooly provided above clearly note that Mystryl had lost control of the integrity of the Weave thanks to the Mad-Power Grab of Karsus.

So cutting Karsus off from the Weave kind of seems a little difficult when she no longer has the once-intimate ability to tweak and tinker with it, as she once did.


-Being unable to maintain the integrity of the Weave and prevent it from collapsing doesn't mean she did not retain one of her salient godly abilities to cut an individual off from the Weave.
I don't see it, personally. We know that most deities of magic have been "the Weave," according to Ed. We've been told in the lore that Mystryl lost the ability to maintain the integrity of the Weave -- essentially -- a very part of her divine being -- as a result of Karsus tapping into her power.

So, at the very least, if she had lost control of "herself," I find it difficult to assume that she could still determine the specific connections each and every individual mortal has to the Weave, and adjust them accordingly.

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Dennis
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Posted - 01 May 2012 :  02:08:35  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There is also the fact that the target of the spell was not a built-in feature of the spell. Karsus could have just as easily gone for Jergal or Moander. It was his arrogance that caused him to choose Mystryl.

-Given that the Phaerimm were destroying Netheril through magic, the obvious choice would be the deity of magic; practicality moreso than arrogance seems to have influenced that decision (ignoring 3e sources that say that Shar subtly influenced the choice of targets). In theory, sure, any deity would have given him godly powers, and with those powers, he could have taken care of business (insomuch as any deity can commit wholesale genocide with the snap of a finger). With Jergal's power, maybe he could have snapped and made all Phaerimm die. With Moander's power, maybe he could have infected all Phaerimm with some kind of waste, causing them to cease their activities against Netheril and flee. Who knows there, though. With the power of the deity of magic, even if one did not know that she possessed the ability to control who can access magic, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the power of the deity of magic would be the best power to have when a highly magical society is engaged in a campaign of genocide against another highly magical society, where magic is the primary weapon being used by both sides, against both sides.


I personally would have gone for the option that enabled me to end the conflict right there, with a snap of my fingers, without any further time being wasted -- in other words, Jergal's power seems the most logical choice for someone wanting to end a war right now.


I agree with LK. Jergal's power might be enough to wipe out the phaerimm. But what about after? What's he going to do with deathly powers in a society (Netheril) where magic is the currency?

Mystryl was the best choice for a target. If he became the god of magic, he can still attend to the welfare of Netheril without abandoning his godly duties. Also, let's not forget that Karsus was a brilliant arcanist. He created spells even the people 100 times his senior could only dream of...The only way to put that brilliance to maximum use is to be in charge of magic itself.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 01 May 2012 02:11:28
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Xar Zarath
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Malaysia
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Posted - 01 May 2012 :  06:04:35  Show Profile Send Xar Zarath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Considering his own store of arrogance and ambition, not to mention personal power, I think godhood would have suited him well.

Everything ends where it begins. Period.



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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 01 May 2012 :  15:01:22  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I don't see it, personally. We know that most deities of magic have been "the Weave," according to Ed. We've been told in the lore that Mystryl lost the ability to maintain the integrity of the Weave -- essentially -- a very part of her divine being -- as a result of Karsus tapping into her power.

So, at the very least, if she had lost control of "herself," I find it difficult to assume that she could still determine the specific connections each and every individual mortal has to the Weave, and adjust them accordingly.

-When a ship is sinking, even past the point that it is too late to save the boat and it's a foregone conclusion that it's going under, the captain can still perform various duties that he is responsible for. As with everything else, there is too much we don't know to really come to definite statements. I agree, more or less, that with everything falling down around her, so to speak, she either didn't have the ability, or whatever else, to separate Karsus from the Weave. Ultimately, though, nothing says that a deity loses X, Y, Z powers as they weaken (though it stands to reason).

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

I agree with LK. Jergal's power might be enough to wipe out the phaerimm. But what about after? What's he going to do with deathly powers in a society (Netheril) where magic is the currency?

Mystryl was the best choice for a target. If he became the god of magic, he can still attend to the welfare of Netheril without abandoning his godly duties. Also, let's not forget that Karsus was a brilliant arcanist. He created spells even the people 100 times his senior could only dream of...The only way to put that brilliance to maximum use is to be in charge of magic itself.


-It's not as if he knew that certain doom for himself and his people would be achieved through the casting of the spell, either.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Edited by - Lord Karsus on 01 May 2012 15:02:42
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Markustay
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Posted - 01 May 2012 :  16:00:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How many of us would be adverse to seeing Karsus as the new 'god of magic'?

And being dead doesn't matter, as we know by numerous canon examples.

Being a fan of GH, I wouldn't mind seeing a deity like Boccob being in-charge, but I'm partial so I was wondering how others here would feel about such a turn of events.

Because to be perfectly honest, I'm kind of sick of Mystra.... and REALLY sick of Shar. Have Karsus take-on the name of 'Mysus' or some-such, make him aloof and uncaring (certainly not a stretch), and then start down-playing Shar's involvement in everything (I like her, I am just getting tired of getting beaten over the head with her).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 May 2012 16:01:23
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 01 May 2012 :  18:00:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

How many of us would be adverse to seeing Karsus as the new 'god of magic'?

And being dead doesn't matter, as we know by numerous canon examples.

Being a fan of GH, I wouldn't mind seeing a deity like Boccob being in-charge, but I'm partial so I was wondering how others here would feel about such a turn of events.

Because to be perfectly honest, I'm kind of sick of Mystra.... and REALLY sick of Shar. Have Karsus take-on the name of 'Mysus' or some-such, make him aloof and uncaring (certainly not a stretch), and then start down-playing Shar's involvement in everything (I like her, I am just getting tired of getting beaten over the head with her).



It wouldn't bother me, provided it was explained in a reasonable manner, and also provided that it is established how he overcame his earlier foolishness.

It'd have to be one heck of an explanation, though, to explain how a formerly dead deity, who best exemplified arrogance, recklessness, and foolishness, could arise to such an important position, especially since his prior traits have already proven he's unworthy of the job.

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Dennis
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Posted - 01 May 2012 :  18:10:01  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I like to see Karsus active again in the Realms. But NOT as a deity of magic. It's still cooler (for me, at least) to see an archwizard who can challenge and siphon the powers of any deity at any given day but chooses to ignore their existence and focuses on his worldly business instead.

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 01 May 2012 :  21:50:39  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

How many of us would be adverse to seeing Karsus as the new 'god of magic'?

-Eh, I think it would kind of defeat the "purpose" of the story.

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The Sage
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Posted - 02 May 2012 :  01:42:40  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

How many of us would be adverse to seeing Karsus as the new 'god of magic'?
Funnily enough, I've been tinkering with an alternate outcome for the Spellplague for another alternate continuity Realmspace that sees the return of Lurue [as per Ed] as the primary deity of magic in the Realms.
quote:
Because to be perfectly honest, I'm kind of sick of Mystra.... and REALLY sick of Shar. Have Karsus take-on the name of 'Mysus' or some-such, make him aloof and uncaring (certainly not a stretch), and then start down-playing Shar's involvement in everything (I like her, I am just getting tired of getting beaten over the head with her).

Which is somewhat similar to my own thinking on bringing Lurue back... possibly even to my main time-line Realms campaign as well.

It's not so much that I'm sick of Mystra... but Ed has Lurue as the true Goddess of Mysteries. In Ed's own words:- "We can’t understand why she does what she does, so she can’t be controlled, or act like any sort of tyrannical munchkin, any more than a mountain range or an ocean can be." And that's just too intriguing a notion not to play with.

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Markustay
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Posted - 02 May 2012 :  05:02:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lurue probably would be best - they should have just left Ed's realms alone.

@Karsus - excellent point - that didn't even occur to me. If he became the god of magic, the end of his story would have changed, and the moral would be lost. You'd basically be rewarding someone for doing something epically stupid and arrogant. Good call.

The tale of "The Momentary god" should be a parable in any Realms 'bible'. Its one of the few 'myths' FR has that is very Greco-Roman in flavor (reminds me of the tale of Phaėton).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 May 2012 05:02:26
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 02 May 2012 :  11:07:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
See, I think you could say that some part of Karsus has been conscious all this time, and that that part has used the intervening years to reflect on what he did... If this part was some sort of sentience bound within the Weave, he'd also have had plenty of time to learn the nature of the Weave, and to see how it should be maintained. Mix all that in with something like a Chosen of Mystra sacrificing themselves to bring him back (rather unlikely, admittedly), and you'd have a formula for a returned Karsus who had learned from his mistakes, would not make them again, and would responsibly guide the Weave as well as any of his predecessors.

All that said, I don't think it's the best solution, and it's not the direction I would go if I was in charge of the setting. It's how I would work it if I had to, but I'd prefer not to do it at all (much like my thread discussing an alternative death/rebirth of Mystra).

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Dennis
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Posted - 02 May 2012 :  11:55:43  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

How many of us would be adverse to seeing Karsus as the new 'god of magic'?

-Eh, I think it would kind of defeat the "purpose" of the story.


Indeed. And besides, he'd already learned from his mistakes. The only way I can see him become the new god of magic is if Mystra willingly hands her throne to him. Which is, of course, very unlikely.

Having learned how crucial Mystra is to the stability of magic itself, when he returns, (that is, if he'd ever return), he may establish a special relationship with her, like Larloch did.

Every beginning has an end.
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