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 Is Larloch a DemiGod now?
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe

789 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2014 :  05:48:45  Show Profile Send silverwolfer a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Yeah spoilders,, blah blah blah..


He drained candlekeep ,was denied the mythral, where does this put him as far as power goes, and ranking?

august
Acolyte

USA
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Posted - 23 Jul 2014 :  06:01:53  Show Profile Send august a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll house rule him as a demi-god, maybe even a quasi-replacement for Azuth, but honestly we just don't know yet. I did think he was the big stand out player in The Herald, so I hope we get to see lots more of him.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1668 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2014 :  06:56:58  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nope and he shouldn't be. I'll grant that he likely gained a great deal of magic energy to use for whatever purpose he want to put it to, but he's not a god.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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George Krashos
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Australia
5615 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2014 :  07:13:15  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If it was that easy to become a god, he would have done it years ago.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sfdragon
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2219 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2014 :  07:17:13  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

If it was that easy to become a god, he would have done it years ago.

-- George Krashos



say what you want about LArloch, but he's no fool to try it like KArsus did

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
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LordofBones
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962 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2014 :  11:04:41  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What's so foolish about it? Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, Azuth, Velsharoon, Savras, Finder and Red Knight are all ascended mortals.
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rangerstranger
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USA
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Posted - 23 Jul 2014 :  13:56:00  Show Profile Send rangerstranger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What's foolish is "to try it the way Karsus did". Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, Azuth, Velsharoon, Savras, Finder and the Red Knight all ascended with the help of an existing deity. Karsus sought to usurp Mystral's powers.

I doubt Larloch will be of demigod status though he is nearly as powerful or more powerful even.
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The Arcanamach
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Posted - 23 Jul 2014 :  14:53:10  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed, I'd say he could best any lesser deity in open combat (with the help of artifacts). I'm not saying he could actually SLAY just any lesser deity, just that he could best them.

I think he's had the means of ascension for some time and has chosen not to do it. He just decided the opportunity presented in the Herald was too good to pass up. I'm also not convinced he actually 'failed' at anything. Larloch is a 'wheels within wheels' sort of genius. What if he faked trying to become a god and 'failed' on purpose to throw the Chosen off his TRUE plans? I've said this in another thread, I think he set Tam up to fail (because his long game is MUCH longer than most) with his still being none the wiser about it.

I will say that I think El is smart enough to know that Larloch didn't actually fail but succeeded at whatever he was trying to REALLY do.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Portella
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 23 Jul 2014 :  22:55:16  Show Profile  Visit Portella's Homepage Send Portella a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dont think is a god now demi or otherwise his syphoning of candlekeep and the stuff he did at myth drannor was not enough to get the mojo. It always makes me think reading ed's books and other authors they see the weave and magic very much like a power battery like taking the energy of magical items, wards and stuff like they were sugar candy etc. This concept never really make it to the game. this transferring of weave power puzzles me

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sleyvas
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Posted - 24 Jul 2014 :  00:35:49  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally, one of the thoughts I've mentioned was that Velsharoon arose to godhood using the phylactery of Mellifleur and the Skull Staff of the Necromancer in a ritual. However, one of the other thoughts was "Where did Velsharoon GET the phylactery of Mellifleur?". I imagine that Mellifleur was cast down during the ToT with all the other gods. However, I wonder if he ever arose from the mortal plane? My thoughts were that if Mellifleur as the god of liches needed an avatar... what are the chances, that the lich he was forced into wasn't in Larloch's control at the time? Might Larloch have slain Mellifleur and recovered his phylactery (perhaps Larloch used some magic to entrap Mellifleur within the phylactery)?

So, how did Velsharoon get it? Maybe Velsharoon stole it from Larloch? Maybe Larloch gave it to Velsharoon just to irk Szass Tam (whom Larloch was setting up to fail by giving him an artifact which would slowly corrupt him)? Maybe something else?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Lilianviaten
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487 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2014 :  04:48:38  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Indeed, I'd say he could best any lesser deity in open combat (with the help of artifacts). I'm not saying he could actually SLAY just any lesser deity, just that he could best them.

I think he's had the means of ascension for some time and has chosen not to do it. He just decided the opportunity presented in the Herald was too good to pass up. I'm also not convinced he actually 'failed' at anything. Larloch is a 'wheels within wheels' sort of genius. What if he faked trying to become a god and 'failed' on purpose to throw the Chosen off his TRUE plans? I've said this in another thread, I think he set Tam up to fail (because his long game is MUCH longer than most) with his still being none the wiser about it.

I will say that I think El is smart enough to know that Larloch didn't actually fail but succeeded at whatever he was trying to REALLY do.



As far as setting Tam up to fail, I agree with that. It is curious how that ancient ritual mysteriously turned up. But in terms of besting any deity in combat, I would sorely doubt it. Did you read the Twilight War books? Kesson Rel was a demigod, and he was a BEAST. I would give Larloch a good chance against him, but he can't best anything above a demigod. There's no reason to think any wizard could.

I too, would like it if Larloch's seemingly uncharacteristic blunder was some "plot within a plot", but that's unlikely. I think his failure was a real thing.
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silverwolfer
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Posted - 24 Jul 2014 :  07:08:20  Show Profile Send silverwolfer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would like to remind folks, even Shar was quoted as saying that, the wards of candlekeep had enough power in them, to even make a toad or pixie into a demi-god.....in chapter 15 of the hearld.


Now not a significant or overly powerful being, unlike our favorite demon lord, he doesn't have divine spark, but rather just a whole bunch of power.


I think Larloch could count as a primoridal now, and with all the undead he commands, slowly take over Vel's position has he has been absent for so long, and we still don't see in any of these books Azuth coming back too being a thing.

Edited by - silverwolfer on 24 Jul 2014 07:13:02
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Lilianviaten
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Posted - 24 Jul 2014 :  12:46:12  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer

I would like to remind folks, even Shar was quoted as saying that, the wards of candlekeep had enough power in them, to even make a toad or pixie into a demi-god.....in chapter 15 of the hearld.


Now not a significant or overly powerful being, unlike our favorite demon lord, he doesn't have divine spark, but rather just a whole bunch of power.


I think Larloch could count as a primoridal now, and with all the undead he commands, slowly take over Vel's position has he has been absent for so long, and we still don't see in any of these books Azuth coming back too being a thing.



Azuth is definitely going to be brought back, but the Sundering novels only had enough time to focus on the major gods coming back (Mask, Helm, slight mention of Vhaeraun). But Erin Evans has definitely been setting Asmodeus up for a fall.

If anyone is taking Velsharoon's place, it would be Tam. The Haunted Lands trilogy, the Sundering novels, and the latest adventures in Thay all deal with his attempts to reach godhood. Larloch only wanted to take Mystra's place, because he essentially worships magic anyway. I don't think the portfolio of any other god (save perhaps Azuth) would interest him.
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LordofBones
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Posted - 24 Jul 2014 :  14:44:05  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Szass Tam is quickly becoming overdone, and Larloch has no interest in godhood, it would limit him too much.

I say just bring back Velsharoon. He, Azuth and Savras are vastly more interesting than Mystra and her Chosen. I mean, the plots and conflicts that could arise between all the gods of magic would be a blast to uncover, instead of Mystra's Men and the Token Evil Teammate.

Perhaps Savras is bitter about his imprisonment and has a lingering resentment that he's forced to serve his old rival. Perhaps Velsharoon's dislike of Mystra stems from the fact that the current Mystra started off as a mewling slip of a girl while he and other more qualified, experienced mages were overlooked. Perhaps there are members of the Azuthan and Mystran churches who balk at the idea of worshipping the current Mystra and instead transfer their allegiance to Savras and Velsharoon. Maybe the aftereffects of Mystra's multiple deaths convince AO that having so much power invested in one deity is potentially catastrophic, and he splits dominion over the Weave between Azuth, Savras and Velsharoon; with Azuth seeking to revive Mystra, Savras being on the fence and Velsharoon opposing the resurrection of Midnight.
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The Arcanamach
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Posted - 24 Jul 2014 :  15:17:39  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
As far as setting Tam up to fail, I agree with that. It is curious how that ancient ritual mysteriously turned up. But in terms of besting any deity in combat, I would sorely doubt it. Did you read the Twilight War books? Kesson Rel was a demigod, and he was a BEAST. I would give Larloch a good chance against him, but he can't best anything above a demigod. There's no reason to think any wizard could.

Have to disagree somewhat here. He may have been portrayed as a beast in the novel but you have to take into account several things:
1. Uncertain narrator almost always applies.
2. His portrayal in the book is relative to other characters he's up against (he's a beast vs. A but a kitten vs. B sort of thing). I admit I haven't read those books though so I can't really speak to this point.
3. Larloch is terribly ancient and by all accounts has been steadily amassing knowledge and power more or less non-stop the entire time.
4. As an addendum to #3 is that I'm going by certain comments from Ed (and many scribes here at the Keep) about his power.
5. I believe Larloch's greatest 'ace' is that no one really knows what in the Nine Hells he's really doing.
6. He now has added power from CK and some from Myth Drannor which gives him a good damn boost.
7. Just to clarify...I said any LESSER deity (in game terms) in open battle and also that he could BEST them not necessarily slay.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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ZeshinX
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Canada
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Posted - 24 Jul 2014 :  16:44:31  Show Profile  Visit ZeshinX's Homepage Send ZeshinX a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Szass Tam is quickly becoming overdone, and Larloch has no interest in godhood, it would limit him too much.

I say just bring back Velsharoon. He, Azuth and Savras are vastly more interesting than Mystra and her Chosen. I mean, the plots and conflicts that could arise between all the gods of magic would be a blast to uncover, instead of Mystra's Men and the Token Evil Teammate.

Perhaps Savras is bitter about his imprisonment and has a lingering resentment that he's forced to serve his old rival. Perhaps Velsharoon's dislike of Mystra stems from the fact that the current Mystra started off as a mewling slip of a girl while he and other more qualified, experienced mages were overlooked. Perhaps there are members of the Azuthan and Mystran churches who balk at the idea of worshipping the current Mystra and instead transfer their allegiance to Savras and Velsharoon. Maybe the aftereffects of Mystra's multiple deaths convince AO that having so much power invested in one deity is potentially catastrophic, and he splits dominion over the Weave between Azuth, Savras and Velsharoon; with Azuth seeking to revive Mystra, Savras being on the fence and Velsharoon opposing the resurrection of Midnight.



Bring Myrkul back in place of Velsharoon.

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LordofBones
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Posted - 24 Jul 2014 :  16:59:00  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Myrkul never had Velsharoon's portfolios. In fact, Myrkul taking Velsharoon's place would be a step down for Old Lord Skull.

I much prefer the idea of Myrkul being Velsharoon's boss; unlike Talos he has no history of consuming demigods and unlike Mystra he's fond of necromancy and undeath.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8347 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2014 :  02:32:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Myrkul never had Velsharoon's portfolios. In fact, Myrkul taking Velsharoon's place would be a step down for Old Lord Skull.

I much prefer the idea of Myrkul being Velsharoon's boss; unlike Talos he has no history of consuming demigods and unlike Mystra he's fond of necromancy and undeath.



I'll agree here in that too many equate Myrkul and Velsharoon. The two were different portfolios. Myrkul was lord of the dead, but not the undead (granted, he dealt with undead). Velsharoon is a lord of necromantic magic. To me, the difference is kind of like comparing Azuth and Talos (and yes, I know Talos tried to take over wild and destructive magic as Malyk)... or comparing Leira and Shar.

I prefer Myrkul stay in his crown and be usable as an NPC item. However, were they to try to bring him back, perhaps a good way would be to actually attempt some kind of intermixing of deities via a ritual (i.e. maybe Mellifleur, Velsharoon, AND Myrkul become something akin to a tri-partite lord of the dead with each "aspect" vying for control.... it could even be some kind of curse of madness inflicted my Cyric).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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jordanz
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513 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2014 :  02:35:02  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Szass Tam is quickly becoming overdone, and Larloch has no interest in godhood, it would limit him too much.

I say just bring back Velsharoon. He, Azuth and Savras are vastly more interesting than Mystra and her Chosen. I mean, the plots and conflicts that could arise between all the gods of magic would be a blast to uncover, instead of Mystra's Men and the Token Evil Teammate.

Perhaps Savras is bitter about his imprisonment and has a lingering resentment that he's forced to serve his old rival. Perhaps Velsharoon's dislike of Mystra stems from the fact that the current Mystra started off as a mewling slip of a girl while he and other more qualified, experienced mages were overlooked. Perhaps there are members of the Azuthan and Mystran churches who balk at the idea of worshipping the current Mystra and instead transfer their allegiance to Savras and Velsharoon. Maybe the aftereffects of Mystra's multiple deaths convince AO that having so much power invested in one deity is potentially catastrophic, and he splits dominion over the Weave between Azuth, Savras and Velsharoon; with Azuth seeking to revive Mystra, Savras being on the fence and Velsharoon opposing the resurrection of Midnight.


I though for sure Elminster was going to replace Azuth...

I thought Larloch had the power of a Demi GOd even before the Candlekeep stunt, but that doesn't mean he IS one. No way could he best or even survive a lesser god. We need to discuss Elminster because they way he handled tanthal was "demi god" like.
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The Sage
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Posted - 25 Jul 2014 :  03:48:09  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

If it was that easy to become a god, he would have done it years ago.

-- George Krashos

Agreed.

And, besides, from what Ed has told us in the past about Larloch's ambitions... I'd very much assume that the great mage could very well have found some other "avenues" toward amassing great almost-deity-level power.

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Lilianviaten
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Posted - 25 Jul 2014 :  06:21:09  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

quote:
As far as setting Tam up to fail, I agree with that. It is curious how that ancient ritual mysteriously turned up. But in terms of besting any deity in combat, I would sorely doubt it. Did you read the Twilight War books? Kesson Rel was a demigod, and he was a BEAST. I would give Larloch a good chance against him, but he can't best anything above a demigod. There's no reason to think any wizard could.

Have to disagree somewhat here. He may have been portrayed as a beast in the novel but you have to take into account several things:
1. Uncertain narrator almost always applies.
2. His portrayal in the book is relative to other characters he's up against (he's a beast vs. A but a kitten vs. B sort of thing). I admit I haven't read those books though so I can't really speak to this point.
3. Larloch is terribly ancient and by all accounts has been steadily amassing knowledge and power more or less non-stop the entire time.
4. As an addendum to #3 is that I'm going by certain comments from Ed (and many scribes here at the Keep) about his power.
5. I believe Larloch's greatest 'ace' is that no one really knows what in the Nine Hells he's really doing.
6. He now has added power from CK and some from Myth Drannor which gives him a good damn boost.
7. Just to clarify...I said any LESSER deity (in game terms) in open battle and also that he could BEST them not necessarily slay.



I understand what you're saying, but all we had to go on for years was speculation. Now we've had Larloch featured in a recent novel, and nothing about his power level indicates that he contains near the power of a lesser deity. The wards of Candlekeep wouldn't even be a power boost for a lesser deity, so they would be useless for him to absorb if he was already that powerful. And the Srinshee, mighty though she is in the Art, could not have so badly wounded someone of even demigod status.

Power levels will always be somewhat vaguely defined, because strictly defined levels make for limited storytelling. But Ed gave us an idea of Larloch's power level, and he has no feats to consider him anything more than demigod level.

You really should read the Twilight War books. Paul Kemp is a fine writer, so I think you would enjoy them to some degree (though he's admittedly too dark and gritty for some people). More to the point, Kesson Rel was a demigod (divine rank 0). It took a LOT to put him down. To be precise, Shar's Chosen + Mask's 2 most powerful Chosen + a powerful psion controlling a sentient mythallar + a small army of Lathanderites channeling their god's power collectively against him.

My personal belief is that Larloch could lay the smack down on a demigod within Warlock's Crypt. Off his home turf, he probably gets some good licks in, but ends up having to rely on his contingencies to escape. A lesser god is out of the question. Also, I'm not convinced that Larloch still has possession of the power he took from Candlekeep and Myth Drannor. The Srinshee's interruption of his drain may have ruined his ability to retain any of it.
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silverwolfer
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Posted - 25 Jul 2014 :  08:11:05  Show Profile Send silverwolfer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While I love the conversation, I would like to repoint out what I posted.


That even Shar admitted that the wards of candlekeep were enough to make him into a local demi-god.
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The Arcanamach
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Posted - 25 Jul 2014 :  09:42:22  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

If it was that easy to become a god, he would have done it years ago.

-- George Krashos
Agreed.

And, besides, from what Ed has told us in the past about Larloch's ambitions... I'd very much assume that the great mage could very well have found some other "avenues" toward amassing great almost-deity-level power.

There's nothing saying that Larloch wants to become a god. He may have had the means...in fact I'm certain he has had the means for centuries...but that doesn't mean he wanted to do it. Doing so places him under the thumb of Ao and brings on headaches he may not have wanted.

Further, I'm not convinced that his purpose in the Herald was to actually become a god. He wanted to amass power certainly but it does not necessarily follow that his end goal was divinity.

But for the sake of argument let's say he was planning on becoming the new deity of magic. If that's the case then I have to believe that even that goal would only be a means to an end. Mayhap I'm putting him on a pedestal, but I much prefer that everything he does only SEEM to be what he's doing (there's always something else behind his actions). I simply don't think his goal as stated in the Herald was that cut and dry.

Remember, in an interview Ed was very clear that he wanted us (the readers) to realize that even the greatest Mary Sue's could be fooled. Who says Larlock wasn't still fooling the Chosen? At the very least, I'd say he had some contingency plan in place just in case he failed. And for the record, I do believe he (largely) failed due to the Srinshee's actions...but I'm willing to bet there's more to his actions than were overtly stated in the Herald.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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The Arcanamach
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Posted - 25 Jul 2014 :  09:56:07  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Lilianviaten: I'm coming from a strictly game rules perspective on Larloch's ability to BEST (not necessarily slay) a Lesser deity. What's written in novels is an entirely different matter (but I will read them just to see what you're talking about).

Example: Looking at the stats for Eilistraee and Malar in the 3e Faiths and Pantheons, I have a very hard time believing that a prepared Larloch (who would NEVER fight a deity unprepared) could be defeated by either of them. Larloch is one of the few archmages approaching 40th-level and is older than many deities. Further, I don't think he'd be pulled into a fight with such a deity unless he'd orchestrated it himself. Now, if he were somehow forced into the fight he might be defeated (assuming that such an enterprising deity ensured that Larloch had already expended much of his power).

I see Larloch as being more powerful than El, and look at what he did to Telamont (and how easily). The Srinshee, I believe, was the only other non-diety capable of besting Larloch...and he was only defeated because he didn't account for her actions...or did he? (I find it difficult that he wouldn't account for such a powerful chess piece...which is why I don't think his 'defeat' was quite as bad as it seemed at the time...I think he got exactly what he wanted...whatever he failed at was secondary I think).

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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LordofBones
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Posted - 25 Jul 2014 :  12:20:22  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From a stats viewpoint, Telamont would murder Elminster. What we got was the opposite. That's mostly because of plot power, gameplay-wise battles between epic wizards comes down to Celerity/Gate/save-or-suck shenanigans/epic spells.

To be honest, from a statistics viewpoint, there are far more powerful pure caster villains. Rhangaun, Kartak Spellseer, Larloch, Shoon VII and Telamont, to name a few. Someone once mentioned that Ed's unofficial stats for her were Wiz29/Sorc 16/Archmage 9...which means Larloch still flattens her with his 46th level arcane casting.
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Arcanus
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Posted - 25 Jul 2014 :  12:40:27  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From the herald-

“For a long time I contented myself with studying the Art, taking it further than any one entity had done before,” he purred, “and letting Toril attend to itself. I cared for no realm nor ruler nor cabal, and was content to be left alone. And the world grew no better, and petty tyrants meddled ever more recklessly with magic, from the dupes of Shar to those fools in Zhentil Keep and Thay, and now these arrogant returned bumblers of Thultanthar. It is time, and long past time, to intervene. Not to rule the high and the low, trying to make laws and enforce them in matters ever so petty— but to slap down the worst parasites and vandals, and let commoners and oxen alike breathe once more! A city should have a ruler pitted against guilds and street gangs and the wealthiest families— but above that, there should be no one but the gods, and their priesthoods lockedever in opposition. Let there be an end to kings. Let there be only … Larloch.”

Seems that big L is content to exist as he is, somewhere between god and mortal.

Yay! 400 posts

Edited by - Arcanus on 25 Jul 2014 19:52:13
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