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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 15:01:28
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| The number of real world references in Once Around the Realms was kinda awful. I groaned a lot while reading that book. Not the good way. |
Edited by - Seravin on 14 Mar 2012 15:01:47 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 15:05:39
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This is more or less the response I expected, but I thought I'd toss out the random question anyway. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 15:10:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
The number of real world references in Once Around the Realms ...
I'm usually in the accepted minority here at Candlekeep, but I liked Once Around the Realms for exactly this reason.
It kind of reminded me of the old "Ed and Elminster" tales in DRAGON. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 16:33:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Heh, not to mention a continuity nightmare.
Cheers
-Yeah, Ed Greenwood is technically dead in the Forgotten Realms now, or some such. Ask Mark all about it; I'm sure he has some "fond" memories about that. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 18:56:51
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I actually like the ties to other worlds, including Earth. The Elminster and Ed parts in Dragon might be a bit silly, but I like the idea of people, beings and elements from multiple worlds mixing. It fits nicely with more pulpish S&S. Just let the various people from Giants of the Earth run loose all over the Realms and let Mirt get teleported into Persia along with Kugel.
As for Once Around the Realms... |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 20:45:25
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| Secondary worlds with a definite continuity contrast with myth, which features variant stories clustering around certain nodes, and even apparently unrelated stories that are inverted or distorted versions of each other. There's something sterile and limiting about a neat-freakishly rigid 'canon', something at odds with people's experiences of stories and life generally. This is part of why Ed has always stressed the unreliability of published lore; and I think it's why I don't mind the existence of relatively concordant derivative and variant Faerūns like the ones we've got from 1987 on except to the degree that they've lost us the original. I don't think the variation with the published setting will be a central aspect of this new book -- and a lot of the differences aren't things with much effect on the 'business end' of the Realms, as it's experienced in play, which clearly is a central aspect -- but generally I find the thought of such diversity positive rather than bothersome. |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 04:25:23
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I'll not dwell too long here on the 'Earth/Realms' connections (as I do so at length on a thread by that name that I posted at the close of last year), I'll just say that it is QUITE possible to have such connections as a central tenet of a campaign world WITHOUT it getting corny IN THE LEAST. You just have to proceed with good taste and keep a 'gritty/real' feel to those connections. 'Monty-Haul-ism' can infect any game, it doesn't have to have crossover elements to fall prey. Respect your world and crossover elements are no threat to it. You don't have to turn things into a farce or some fairy tale 'Enchanted' adventure.
I've been running 'Earth to Realms' crossover games for decades at this point, and I do my level best to keep them VERY Realms 'realistic'. I don't hold to the conceit that my core gamers are the only Earth transplants, I make them a tool of the native struggles between the gods and factions of the Realms, I use Ed's brilliant OGB rules to keep technology and overly 'Earth Flavored' elements from overwhelming the Realms, and I treat my Earther groups as if they are acting profoundly stupid for walking up to the locals and tipping they are from Earth. That gets you sold, used, dissected by curious wizards, or worst of all, hunted and killed by other less kindly Earthers, who want the glories and mysteries of the Realms to be theirs and theirs alone.
Harumph! Lol. Anyway, I'm just saying, don't assume everyone who does crossovers does them as slapstick. I'd also be prepared for such elements to be in the very product release we are discussing, as I'm given to understand they are a part of Ed's Realms.
Okay, powering down on the righteous indignation. Lol. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 14:43:36
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Narnia, World of Tiers, Chronicles of Amber, Elric (and other Moorcock) novels, etc, etc, etc...
Don't know why you hate the idea so much LK... its a corner-stone of fantasy.
While I understand your distaste myself, I also have to accept it is a very common trope, and also a major part of FR's backdrop. If it makes you feel any better, do what I do - the 'Earth' that connects with FR is the D&D Earth (which is canon), and I use the Gothic Earth (RL/MotRD-spinoff) for the basis of that.
IF (and thats a VERY big 'IF') my players ever interacted with Earth (or Earthmen), thats the world they would encounter (albeit, perhaps a future-version from the one presented in Gothic Earth - a 20th century fantasy Earth (where every conspiracy theory, paranormal event, cryptid, clandestine group, etc... are all very real.)
Now that I think about it, maybe I'd have them go through Elminster's portal and wind-up in the 1890's, or perhaps Tesla's experiments opened up a portal, and the PCs have to close it somehow, before both worlds are destroyed (the portal is growing, or smaller portals are opening everywhere).
Now I'm dipping into Fringe....  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Mar 2012 14:44:07 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 17:38:54
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Kris the Grey has the right of it. From its beginnings, Ed's Realms have had this crossover/multiverse element as an integral part of it. In the home campaign, the Knights have (briefly) visited other worlds (parallel Prime Material Planes) as well as other planes of existence, and battled individuals and groups fromother planes and who wished to control the gates accessing planes . . . and none of it has been in the least "corny."
The Pages From The Mages and other crossover writing Ed did for DRAGON and the website (the infamous interview with Princess Alusair) have the flavour editors wanted them to.
The worst mistake any fan (or pundit) can make is that their personal tastes and preferences are "right" and "good," and others are "wrong" or "bad." The Realms is different things to a lot of different people, and its very diversity is a great strength.
Ed wrote an entire sourcebook, years ago, on planewalking high-level Realms campaigns, but it was nixed in favour of establishing a new line of products (Planescape). Now, all that "berk" and "cutter" lingo wasn't to MY taste, but a lot of people enjoyed it.
love to all,
THO |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 18:14:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Narnia, World of Tiers, Chronicles of Amber, Elric (and other Moorcock) novels, etc, etc, etc...
Don't know why you hate the idea so much LK... its a corner-stone of fantasy.
While I understand your distaste myself, I also have to accept it is a very common trope, and also a major part of FR's backdrop. If it makes you feel any better, do what I do - the 'Earth' that connects with FR is the D&D Earth (which is canon), and I use the Gothic Earth (RL/MotRD-spinoff) for the basis of that.
IF (and thats a VERY big 'IF') my players ever interacted with Earth (or Earthmen), thats the world they would encounter (albeit, perhaps a future-version from the one presented in Gothic Earth - a 20th century fantasy Earth (where every conspiracy theory, paranormal event, cryptid, clandestine group, etc... are all very real.)
Now that I think about it, maybe I'd have them go through Elminster's portal and wind-up in the 1890's, or perhaps Tesla's experiments opened up a portal, and the PCs have to close it somehow, before both worlds are destroyed (the portal is growing, or smaller portals are opening everywhere).
Now I'm dipping into Fringe....
Yeah, when I was more into developing the history of the bounty hunter, Sleyvas of Thay, I actually had introduced him in Ravenloft to my PC's (back in 2nd edition). He was a dual-class fighter/mage. He "escaped" Ravenloft only to end up in the Masque of the Red Death campaign out in the wild west.... which I only did because I wanted to explain him having six-shooters. Of course, if that were the case that that was the world where "Ed Greenwood" was from, there would be some serious time discrepancies. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 22:01:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
I'll not dwell too long here on the 'Earth/Realms' connections (as I do so at length on a thread by that name that I posted at the close of last year), I'll just say that it is QUITE possible to have such connections as a central tenet of a campaign world WITHOUT it getting corny IN THE LEAST. You just have to proceed with good taste and keep a 'gritty/real' feel to those connections. 'Monty-Haul-ism' can infect any game, it doesn't have to have crossover elements to fall prey. Respect your world and crossover elements are no threat to it. You don't have to turn things into a farce or some fairy tale 'Enchanted' adventure.
-Absolutely. The Imaskari abducting slaves from other words, including possibly Mesopotamia and Egypt, for example. Elminster visiting Ed Greenwood and handing over manuscripts depicting and detailing Realmspace, not so much.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Narnia, World of Tiers, Chronicles of Amber, Elric (and other Moorcock) novels, etc, etc, etc...
Don't know why you hate the idea so much LK... its a corner-stone of fantasy.
While I understand your distaste myself, I also have to accept it is a very common trope, and also a major part of FR's backdrop. If it makes you feel any better, do what I do - the 'Earth' that connects with FR is the D&D Earth (which is canon), and I use the Gothic Earth (RL/MotRD-spinoff) for the basis of that.
-The concept itself, beings traveling across planes/planets, I have no problem with; I'm a big Planescape fan, and I like the concept of Spelljammer (the execution is a bit too much campy for me). It's the execution of the 'crosspollenization' and the details that cause me to either like something or dislike something. Timing, also. I don't have problems with interactions that happen in antiquity. When the interaction is taking place in the relative present tense, it becomes a lot more iffy, and that's where the details and execution really matter to me. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 15 Mar 2012 22:05:25 |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 03:44:05
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Originally posted by Lord Karsus
Elminster visiting Ed Greenwood and handing over manuscripts depicting and detailing Realmspace, not so much.
LK,
Actually, all those articles back in the dim past in Dragon are what gave me the idea to use Earth/Realms crossover elements in the first place (that and certain OGB disclosures). I'll agree one could very easily take that concept and use it to pour a bit of cheese about (how Dragon expanded it to include Greyhawk and Krynn and made them 'three world summit meetings' or how it got used to apply to things like Spelljammer as you suggest), but you can come up with a rationale for such disclosures that makes great sense (and is quite gritty) if you want to put your mind to it.
For example, in creating the backstory for one's game one could approach such disclosures from the standpoint that it truly does make rational sense that individuals as powerful (and experienced in keeping secrets) as Elminster and the Seven Sisters would NEVER disclose that sort of sensitive information to an Earther unless:
1) they knew most people on Earth reading it would simply treat it as nothing more than the equivalent of a 'fairy tale' - and no one from the Realms would be likely to ever see it
2) the only effective way to arm the people who NEEDED that information to survive (people who might unexpectedly wind up in the Realms without any reason to think the Realms ever even existed, but might have an important role to play in said Realms) without tapping them on the shoulder and forewarning them directly (something they might be forbidden to do by much higher powers/codes of conduct) would be to disseminate it amongst people of our world naturally drawn to fantasy and magic - i.e. gamers
3) they would only take the risk of spreading that knowledge if directed to do so in service to their own higher power (the main reason they do most things they do when it comes right down to it) for reasons that said power might ultimately keep secret - even from them
All of a sudden those seemingly campy afternoons Elminster spent raiding the cola from Ed's fridge transform into something no more campy than Merlin instructing a certain boy king in the 'Things He Needs to Know About the True Nature of the World'. (Just as an aside, for what I think is an outstanding example of this sort of Arthurian tale by the way, see the short story, "The Queen and the Cambion" by Richard Bowes - printed in the March/April 2012 edition of The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction - it is a truly moving tale).
All I'm saying is, every story telling trick can be abused, but given a little squint of the eye, the core concept of an Elminster/Ed info dump can make perfect sense. Hey, even all the campy disclosures you don't like can be simply rationalized thusly...what better way to hide those true details than to provide them with a 'bodyguard of lies' (as a certain cigar chomping Brit might say) designed to further enhance the entire exercise as just one big fairy tale...
;)
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Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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After "Elminster's Forgotten Realms" comes out
