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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

738 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  05:46:42  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So I've been thinking, after WotC publishes "Elminster's Forgotten Realms" with Greenwood's version of the Realms, what will be the long-term effects on the IP?

No doubt about it, it WILL be an alternate reality from the current canon Realms. If people embrace it, will it effectively replace the current canon world?

Think about this, really think about it. Once it's out, it means that there will effectively be two canon Realms. Which will be the "right" one, if either? The "canon-1" world, with flaws aplenty? Or the "canon-2" world with "everything as intended" by the creator?

Generally, customers like to know what, how, and if future products fit with a given "line" or setting. Is this a well-intentioned idea that they haven't fully thought through? Will they label future products as generic, canon-1 and canon-2?


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer

Brimstone
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3024 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  07:04:18  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just want to know when the start date is. 1356ish or later?

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
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Dark Wizard
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USA
830 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  07:34:16  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Unless someone has seen the full manuscript says otherwise (in that case they're probably bound by a sturdy NDA), I don't think we should automatically conclude Elminster's Forgotten Realms is an alternate timeline or version of the Realms.

I think it will more likely be Ed emphasizing pieces of Realmslore he used in his games and maybe offer more elaboration on those areas with some new lore thrown in.

If they so choose, a group can probably reconstruct a good representation of a Realms setting with Ed's notes (that's what WotC called the book essentially) and existing information from all the editions released.

I think this will not be enough to constitute a whole standalone setting by itself or offer the knockout blow of a full alternate timeline, version, or reboot. I could be wrong.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  09:38:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think WotC will simply say it's not FR canon.

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Apex
Learned Scribe

USA
229 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  12:25:31  Show Profile  Visit Apex's Homepage Send Apex a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think WotC will simply say it's not FR canon.



If it is set in the OGB era (or before), it will be canon to me. I will take Ed's vision of the Realms before I ever accept what the hacks over at WoTC have put out recently.
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Diffan
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Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  12:36:15  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Ed is a swell guy and I'm interesting to see what changes he made but l'll look at them just like anyone elses "homebrew" ideas. Its not canon, its not really 'official'. But I too feel WotC wont be making it Canon.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Jeremy Grenemyer
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Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  12:58:55  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think Elminster's Forgotten Realms will have any long term effects on the IP in the sense of splitting the timeline--why should it?

I'm hoping it's like a Volo's Guide and that it gives long-time fans a great big taste of something they haven't gotten in awhile.

quote:
Originally posted by Apex

I will take Ed's vision of the Realms before I ever accept what the hacks over at WoTC have put out recently.
Why is it necessary to insult people in order to get your point across?

You can not like something--and say as much--without also going after the people creating it.

Also, Ed's published some great Realmslore lately in his Eye on the Realms articles. Does he count as a "hack" too since he's not precisely writing his vision of the Realms when he pens these articles?

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).

Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 12 Mar 2012 13:00:39
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  14:02:19  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm content enough to believe that this product will simply fall under the "idea of the truth" about the Forgotten Realms as was indicated in the 'Introduction' of the Ol' Grey Box.

Specifically:-
quote:
The information presented herein is as known to myself, those about me in the lands north and west of the Sea of Fallen Stars, and those I have encountered in my travels. On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. All stories presented are as I have heard them and had them recorded, all information is checked as best as possible given the limited resources of an old man in a small town (even if that old man has the power to flatten mountains, mind you). As you adventure in this fantasy world, be warned that not all things are as they appear, and trust to your wits, your weapons, and your common sense in surviving and profiting from the Forgotten Realms.
In other words, it's only canon, or not, if you, as the DM, deem it as such.

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Old Man Harpell
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Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  14:51:28  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From the way it's been advertised, it's been made to sound like the Realms as run by Ed in his own campaign. In that sense, yes, you could think of it as an 'alternate reality', but I would be exceedingly surprised if it gets any additional support beyond the initial publication.

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer


quote:
Originally posted by Apex

I will take Ed's vision of the Realms before I ever accept what the hacks over at WoTC have put out recently.


Why is it necessary to insult people in order to get your point across?

You can not like something--and say as much--without also going after the people creating it.

Also, Ed's published some great Realmslore lately in his Eye on the Realms articles. Does he count as a "hack" too since he's not precisely writing his vision of the Realms when he pens these articles?


While I agree that using the term 'hacks' was unnecessary on Apex's part, you are making an erupting volcano out of a mudpie. He made a bad call, you are trying to pick a fight. I realize that any criticism of the Shattered Realms is something you find absolutely intolerable, but you could have simply said 'knock it off' and left it at that. So please...knock it off.
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Apex
Learned Scribe

USA
229 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  15:38:01  Show Profile  Visit Apex's Homepage Send Apex a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

From the way it's been advertised, it's been made to sound like the Realms as run by Ed in his own campaign. In that sense, yes, you could think of it as an 'alternate reality', but I would be exceedingly surprised if it gets any additional support beyond the initial publication.




It is debatable as to the era. The synopsis out now talks about adding information on "its visible and clandestine rulers, various merchant and trade princes, the churches and mercenary companies of the Realms, renown magic-users and secret societies, adventuring companies, and the web of alliances and enmities that connect them"

Is that info on the rulers/groups/etc of 1350DR Realms or of the Shattered Realms. If it is the latter, they can county my money out.
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Eltheron
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738 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  15:48:30  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that Greenwood has told us (at least here) of a few "big things" that are very different in his world vs. the published one. IIRC, I don't think his world had the "Time of Troubles" or the Spellplague/Abeir/4Echanges. Am I totally wrong about this? I could be, I don't visit the forums regularly.

If I'm right, though, that kinda says "alternate reality Realms" to me. Maybe the differences will not be mentioned, however. Or they might be minimized.

But even if that's the case, the blurb does say it will have new information on rulers, merchant costers, churches, and mercenaries, among other things. As such, if names are named, they'll have to be put somewhere and with specific dates.

Or do people see this effort as being just another supplement that will be compatible with 4E? Or generic enough that it'll fit with any edition?

Personally, I think it's being advertised as an alternate reality. It's "Ed's Realms", right? What I want and would expect to see is at least a basic accounting of how his world differs from the canon-published Realms. If not, if it's just more lore that has been made extremely generic to fit any era/edition, I'm not sure it would be nearly as interesting.

Don't get me wrong, I like new lore. Especially when it's penned directly by Greenwood. But I see this as being quite different than supplements that have come before.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer

Edited by - Eltheron on 12 Mar 2012 15:56:26
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  16:02:19  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My guess is that since this material will be from Edís home notes, weíre going to get Realmslore that was designed for the era his campaign is set in.

But much like the Voloís Guides and most of Edís Eye on the Realms articles, I think this latest book will contain information thatís usable by DMs in any era of the Realms.

Iím really excited to see the information on churches, mercenaries and merchant cabals. That seems like it will be the kind of stuff that you can insert into a Realms game and have it fit pretty seamlessly.

I recall Ed mentioning somewhere that his group voted not to play through the Time of Troubles. Going to go out on a limb here and say they probably havenít played through the return of Shade either.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Hawkins
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USA
2130 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  16:04:56  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that you have the wrong idea about the product. I think that the sole purpose of this product is to allow a "window" for players, readers, and DMs as to what Ed has done with the Realms in his home campaign. It is not to start an alternate timeline. It is a standalone product (though I would not mind there being multiple volumes of it). Canon is what WotC, the IP holder, deems it to be, and nothing else. Ed knew this when he sold the IP. And in the end, I do not think that it will be anything more than they intended, a non-canonical look at what Ed has done with the Realms in his home game.

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Seravin
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Canada
852 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  16:14:20  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's going to be canon for me. I hope there are multiple volumes and it sells like hotcakes.
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

738 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  16:35:13  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Huh, if it ends up just being more lore that's generic, I'll probably have to see it and read it before buying.

Just from the title alone, I had the strong impression that it's intended to imply "Ed's World" (which to me says "different timeline and all"). But if it's not that at all, then it's not going to be a compelling purchase.

Thing is, I'd be VERY interested in seeing Ed's alternate reality Realms. I'd even pre-order it. If it's advertised as such and ends up being just a collection of plug-n-play lore items, I don't really need or want that. Granted, Ed has and can come up with some amazing plug-n-play lore-bites. But I'd much rather see HIS Realms, and it is being advertised that way IMO.

I hope I'm not disappointed. Again.



"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer

Edited by - Eltheron on 12 Mar 2012 16:36:50
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  16:42:00  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We really don't know what Ed's piece is going to be, and whether it will have the seal of "official canon" or not. Ultimately, I think it really shouldn't matter to the vast majority of people connected to the Realms--your DM is the arbiter of what goes in your game. Whether it's official canon or not affects the designers and authors more than the players, as we're the ones who take it all into account, just like any other sourcebook.

Also, you better believe I will incorporate as much of it as I can, in my games and my design work. Ed is the Realms, and what he designs should always be our guiding light.

quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Apex

I will take Ed's vision of the Realms before I ever accept what the hacks over at WoTC have put out recently.
Why is it necessary to insult people in order to get your point across?
You can not like something--and say as much--without also going after the people creating it.
Also, Ed's published some great Realmslore lately in his Eye on the Realms articles. Does he count as a "hack" too since he's not precisely writing his vision of the Realms when he pens these articles?
While I agree that using the term 'hacks' was unnecessary on Apex's part, you are making an erupting volcano out of a mudpie. He made a bad call, you are trying to pick a fight. I realize that any criticism of the Shattered Realms is something you find absolutely intolerable, but you could have simply said 'knock it off' and left it at that. So please...knock it off.
Indeed. It takes two (or more) to argue (OMH, be careful that's not what you're doing too by ascribing motives to Jeremy's post), so let's just not argue.

This does not, however, mean one shouldn't call people out who insult you or others. In that case, "knock it off" is a suitable reply. (This is maybe actually a "helpful" reply, as generally people tend not to listen to those who insult them.)

Personally, I respond with a big "meh": We're all hacks to one extent or another. Whether you consider me (or any of my colleagues) a particularly egregious hack doesn't really matter to my work. I'm just going to keep doing it.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  17:54:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

So I've been thinking, after WotC publishes "Elminster's Forgotten Realms" with Greenwood's version of the Realms, what will be the long-term effects on the IP?




Just wondering, since I quit following things after 4E and just occasionally pick up novels now, when did this get announced and when is it being released? With 5th edition "around the corner", I would wonder if this weren't a generic type supplement meant to support the path they're proposing there.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Lord Karsus
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USA
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Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  17:54:54  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

So I've been thinking, after WotC publishes "Elminster's Forgotten Realms" with Greenwood's version of the Realms, what will be the long-term effects on the IP?

-If it is an alternate take on the official setting, likely, it will have little-to-no impact on the official setting, regardless of how good it does. Look at Baldur's Gate, or Neverwinter Nights, two games that, by all accounts, sold very well, made WotC and the other companies involved in developing the game plenty of money, and are beloved by a large amount of people years and years after they were produced (especially Baldur's Gate). Despite being successes, they're deemed non-canon and they've been relatively ignored, in terms of having their content implemented in the official setting, and in terms of being revisited and whatnot. I mean, they're now remaking Baldur's Gate in some capacity, and that game came out fifteen years ago or so?

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1577 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  18:00:38  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Personally, I respond with a big "meh": We're all hacks to one extent or another. Whether you consider me (or any of my colleagues) a particularly egregious hack doesn't really matter to my work. I'm just going to keep doing it.


Any writer who accepts a commission may be accurately described as a hack, unless he has the audacity to maintain that his work exists in a class of its own, set apart from the ordinary by some unique quality.

In a world where Burroughs, Haggard, Lovecraft, Vance, Howard, Conan Doyle, Leiber, Heinlein and Poe may be accurately described as 'hacks', being men who wrote on commission (or to sell piece-meal), with short deadlines and in order to earn a living, with all of them writing for the pulps or their era's equivalent ('penny-dreadfuls', etc.), I think that it would be the height of arrogance for any modern author to take offence to the term. Indeed, Shakespeare and Marlowe lived of their writing and directing and could both be tagged as prime 'hacks', producing a stream of commercial works and being paid by the line in many cases.

Pretty much the only way to escape 'hackdom' is to be independently wealthy, pursue writing only as a hobby or to be such a towering genius that even work you do in three sleepness nights to pay overdue bills is considered transcendental literature. Which doesn't happen much. I mean, Shakespeare wrote Hamlet and Henry V, but he also wrote Coriolanus and Henry VIII, not to mention plays like a Winter's Tale and Timons of Athens, neither of which makes any sense at all without being essentially re-written by the director/artistic director/theatrical producer.

And if it's good enough for the Bard, it's plenty good enough for any of us. Remember, being a 'hack' means that your creative work is good enough for other people to pay you to do it, unlike the staggering sums of nothing we are getting for our posts here.

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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  18:17:29  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
...and the term is also a pejorative. It would be shortsighted to presume the term is only ever used in a complimentary way.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

738 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  18:22:38  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

...and the term is also a pejorative. It would be shortsighted to presume the term is only ever used in a complimentary way.


Jeremy, please stop. Your tendency to take over a thread based on your personal response to someone's offhand comment is not acceptable in this thread.

If you can't stay on-topic in my thread, get out. You may think you're doing something noble, but you're just fanning the flames. SO STOP IT OR GET OUT.

Capice?

Let's get back on TOPIC please.


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1577 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  18:39:20  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

...and the term is also a pejorative. It would be shortsighted to presume the term is only ever used in a complimentary way.


Almost anything can be meant in a pejorative way. You can call someone a great hero and beloved leader, while admiringly praising his wonderful kindness and affection for all children, in a way that leaves no doubt that you think he's a cowardly tyrant pedophile.

But why do you go around looking for ways to be offended on behalf of someone else? Isn't there enough offence in the world without inventing more out of every throw-away statement that could possibly be interpreted in a negative light?

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

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Eltheron
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738 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  18:43:33  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

...and the term is also a pejorative. It would be shortsighted to presume the term is only ever used in a complimentary way.


Almost anything can be meant in a pejorative way. You can call someone a great hero and beloved leader, while admiringly praising his wonderful kindness and affection for all children, in a way that leaves no doubt that you think he's a cowardly tyrant pedophile.

But why do you go around looking for ways to be offended on behalf of someone else? Isn't there enough offence in the world without inventing more out of every throw-away statement that could possibly be interpreted in a negative light?


Please drop this, it's extremely off topic.


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

738 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  18:56:50  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

So I've been thinking, after WotC publishes "Elminster's Forgotten Realms" with Greenwood's version of the Realms, what will be the long-term effects on the IP?




Just wondering, since I quit following things after 4E and just occasionally pick up novels now, when did this get announced and when is it being released? With 5th edition "around the corner", I would wonder if this weren't a generic type supplement meant to support the path they're proposing there.


My understanding, which is really just from reading the Amazon.com page for the book, is that it's coming out this October 2012.

So, just in time for the holidays. Usually Amazon's dates are spot-on.

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

So I've been thinking, after WotC publishes "Elminster's Forgotten Realms" with Greenwood's version of the Realms, what will be the long-term effects on the IP?

-If it is an alternate take on the official setting, likely, it will have little-to-no impact on the official setting, regardless of how good it does. Look at Baldur's Gate, or Neverwinter Nights, two games that, by all accounts, sold very well, made WotC and the other companies involved in developing the game plenty of money, and are beloved by a large amount of people years and years after they were produced (especially Baldur's Gate). Despite being successes, they're deemed non-canon and they've been relatively ignored, in terms of having their content implemented in the official setting, and in terms of being revisited and whatnot. I mean, they're now remaking Baldur's Gate in some capacity, and that game came out fifteen years ago or so?


My impression, and this isn't to say I'm right, is that computer games never really have been taken as canon. Could be wrong, though. I do think that printed supplements are viewed in a very different light, and this one seems to be an entirely new and different type of supplement altogether.

Could be wrong about that, though. It may be that it's just a regular supplement afterall, and not something "new" in the sense of a different type of product. It's just that when I first heard about it and read of it, it really did seem like they were going to do "Ed's World" rather than just making a supplement with newish lore.

Not that one is better than the other, it's just that it seemed different in nature than what's been done before.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer

Edited by - Eltheron on 12 Mar 2012 19:01:26
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
304 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  19:16:34  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think that the "Elminster's Forgotten Realms" will resemble any era of the published realms that closely. Ed on multiple occasions has mentioned that his home setting is different then the published realms. Also, I remember reading somewhere that Ed had complete creative control and did not actually sell his home setting to WotC. I think this will be a one shot product, very cool but I do not think that it will become a supplemented alternate realms setting. The only effect on the cannon realms that I could see is a change in tone of cannon realms to be more thematically like Ed's Realms if the product sells exceptionally well.

Tarlyn Embersun
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2012 :  19:20:30  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn

The only effect on the cannon realms that I could see is a change in tone of cannon realms to be more thematically like Ed's Realms if the product sells exceptionally well.
That would actually be pretty cool.

Obviously we'll have to wait and see on this book to determine just what those themes are (considering here that some of those themes may be as yet unknown) but with Ed, it's usually all good.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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