| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 23:16:56
|
Re: althen: My motivation is pretty much what Icelander and Mark said. First, I want inter-world consistency of divinities, at least in portfolio; divine power rankings may be different from one crystal sphere to another, simply because said power is based on worshipper population, and not all deities have the same level of popularity in all worlds, but (for example) Pholtus = Lathander and (imho) Iuz = Iyachtu Xvim (I may have gotten this one from Mark). Further, the non-human deities seem to be known by the same names on all worlds... this raises an interesting question: why do the non-human races all worship the same deities regardless of their world, while humans do not (at least in name)? Any theories?
Second, I'm lazy. I'd much rather put a moderate level of energy into developing further lore and detail for an already detailed world like the Realms, than having to create everything myself from scratch (requiring a much larger amount of energy). And, like Icelander, I need to know how everything fits together, even if it's not coming directly into play. This, more than anything, is responsible for the raft of questions I've asked Ed over the last three-plus years that have only a 50/50 chance of ever being answered thanks to NDAs and continually changing publishing plans.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 24 Feb 2012 23:17:16 |
 |
|
|
Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 06:27:05
|
| Because the real world is so complex but we are always trying to figure it out, and I need the fictional universes I love be like that as well. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 18:38:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
While Annam might at least be made to fit Odin*, having at least two similarities in the appelation All-Father and the story about learning rune magic with a personal sacrifice, I would strongly object to Thor being identified with Gruumsh or Talos.**
First of all, of course, giants are the enemies of the Æsir, not their allies or their children. Second, Thor is the destroyer of giants, not someone who glories in destruction for its own sake. If orcs were present in Nordic sagas, Thor would consider them merely small giant-kin, them being enemies of men and civilisation, and he'd hammer them good.
Thor was worshipped by farmers praying for rain and the ordinary people for protection from the harsh elements around them. He's not a god of destruction by any means and he's not a god of territory or conquest either, because he never warred for profit or land, he did it for glory, joy in his strength and thirst for adventure. And, most importantly, he did it in defence of his home and of mankind, of whom he was evidently fond in most of the myths.
In the D&D aligment system, Thor is clearly Chaotic Good. Odin might be Neutral or Lawful Neutral.
Personally, I'd call the superficial similarities of 'All-Father' and a single myth inspired by a myth about Odin nothing more than giant culture being vaguely inspired by Nordic culture and the central god-figure therefore likely to have some similarities.
*With sufficient laissez-faire to ignore such differences as Odin being a crafty and subtle god whereas Annam is rather direct and blustering (not to mention taking some thousands of years to notice when he's being cuckolded, something which in the Norse sagas would absolutely preclude being accorded any respect at all). Odin was schemer first, magician and seer second and warlord only third.
**As for calling them the same god, that's just ridiculous. They were not the same god in 3e (or similar), if they are the same god now, it's because one or the other has defeated the other and taken his power. Fortunately, gods merge or split into different aspects all the time, so few godly continuity issues are irreconcilable.
I agree Odin and Annam don't fit. However, I'd never put Odin as anything close to lawful. Odin was very fond of mischief and subterfuge himself. In fact, I'd put Thor as more "lawful" than Odin, as Thor is at least pretty much straight forward and honest in most of his leanings. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 18:57:14
|
Annam isn't human. Neither is Odin (he is an Aesir).
Two races worshiping different aspects of one power that is 'of' neither of those races, and yet has connections to both - thats hard to fathom? Especially considering the Norse excepted at least one other (non-human?) pantheon as part of their pantheon?
Odin has children with Giantesses that are considered Æsir - how can you not see the connection?
I peg Annam as a primordial (a greater {PS} Titan, or Jötunn). In FR, he has 'relations' with Othea (a giantess in the stories, but who appears to be more akin to an Archfey in 4e parlance). So we have two beings - Annam and Odin - who are both something along the lines of a 'High God', both referred to as 'the All-Father', and both have relations with ginatesses and by them have deities for children.
But yeah.... they are Waaaaaaay different... 
I look at it this way - Annam was forced to leave Toril after siring FR giants. The stories about Odin didn't surface on Earth until many millenia later. During that period, Annam sought wisdom, and thats when he lost his eye. It really is easily reconcilable - Annam is the pre-wisdom version of Odin.
Eventually Odin's eye, along with Gruumsh/Talos', Vecna's, Eye of the Graii, and the All-seeing eye of Agamotto will be combined into the Cosmic Beholder Cube, and the universe will tremble beneath its gaze.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 25 Feb 2012 19:00:35 |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 21:38:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Annam isn't human. Neither is Odin (he is an Aesir).
Two races worshiping different aspects of one power that is 'of' neither of those races, and yet has connections to both - thats hard to fathom? Especially considering the Norse excepted at least one other (non-human?) pantheon as part of their pantheon?
Odin has children with Giantesses that are considered Æsir - how can you not see the connection?
I peg Annam as a primordial (a greater {PS} Titan, or Jötunn). In FR, he has 'relations' with Othea (a giantess in the stories, but who appears to be more akin to an Archfey in 4e parlance). So we have two beings - Annam and Odin - who are both something along the lines of a 'High God', both referred to as 'the All-Father', and both have relations with ginatesses and by them have deities for children.
But yeah.... they are Waaaaaaay different...
I look at it this way - Annam was forced to leave Toril after siring FR giants. The stories about Odin didn't surface on Earth until many millenia later. During that period, Annam sought wisdom, and thats when he lost his eye. It really is easily reconcilable - Annam is the pre-wisdom version of Odin.
I like it... once the time frame is laid out, it all works very well, I think. 
Edit: And the Celtic pantheon works in the same way; the Tuatha de Danaan weren't human either, but were very close to it, much like the Aesir, Vanir, and Jotuns.
quote:
Eventually Odin's eye, along with Gruumsh/Talos', Vecna's, Eye of the Graii, and the All-seeing eye of Agamotto will be combined into the Cosmic Beholder Cube, and the universe will tremble beneath its gaze.
 Eye blink, therefore I am.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 25 Feb 2012 21:39:54 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 00:45:58
|
I think most of the Celtic Pantheon are ancient fey powers, and those same Fey powers are the Vanir (so parts of the Celtic pantheon are in the Norse pantheon).
And then their is the Aesir/Asura connection.
I didn't link these pantheons - I just found the existing links.
Like MielikKi, Jotun/Titan, Anak/Annam, etc
I had more here, but it was a little too deep into (current) RW religion - suffice it to say that I am not so much a fiction-writer as I am an explorer uncovering long-lost secrets. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 26 Feb 2012 01:00:49 |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 00:50:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think most of the Celtic Pantheon are more ancient fey powers, and those same Fey powers are the Vanir (so parts of the Celtic pantheon are in the Norse pantheon).
I like this... I'm going to have to get to work on this for myself.
Edit: One of the difficulties I've had with RW mythological research is that so few resources cover the entirety of any given pantheon. Do you have any good sources to recommend? [/edit]
quote:
I had more here, but it was a little too deep into (current) RW religion - suffice it to say that I am not so much a fiction-writer as I am an explorer uncovering long-lost secrets.
So... any chance you could PM-share your RW-deep speculations? I'm very curious. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 26 Feb 2012 03:32:17 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 03:57:26
|
Without compelling canon reason, I don't like locating real world deities on Toril. That is, I don't like to simply say 'This god is Odin/Thor/Taranis/Tiwaz etc.'.
There's a simple explanation for this. I think that even in a multiverse where all the worlds are connected, there's no reason for all the possible aspects of all the possible gods to be worshipped on the all the worlds.
Even if Indra, Teylas, Thor and Perkele are all aspects of a similar mortal perception of a certain power, why should any of these be true in a cosmic sense? In particular, why should the beliefs that have been preserved into the 21st century of our Earth represent anything but a random sampling of possible divinities, which, if anything, are less common on other worlds than many others? After all, our world is clearly exceptional in not having the gods actively granting spells and performing miracles on a daily basis.
Isn't it likely that worlds where gods have a more vital ecological niche have more diversity of them? So gods in fantasy settings might share elements with the gods worshipped on Earth-without-magic, but if there are any cosmic archtypes behind the gods, the fantasy gods are the 'true' ones and the ones found here are pale shadows.
And why should it be necessary for ideas about gods to come from another Prime Material plane, when it is obvious how someone might independently imagine a connection betweeen thunder and warfare and then assign the thunder god certain personality quirks?
I see the personalities of gods being assigned, unconsciously, by their worshippers. Thus, what starts as one god with a certain nature can fracture into many (or many can coalesce into one) as the idea of the god is introduced to many different societies.
And remember that memes propagate many times faster than genes. You don't need a society of Vikings to introduce a god with similar properties as a god worshipped by Nordic people on Earth. You just need one charismatic person spreading the word and a world where gods can grant spells.
I know Toril is riddled with gates. But as a matter of artistic integrity, the simplest and most economical explanation that fits all the facts is to be prefered over a dramatic one that introduces new questions and has major repercussions all over the world.
We know that a whole group of 'Vikings' arrived in -3,100 DR, for example. If we can, we should use this explanation for all oddities that we think can best be explained by Vikings in the Realms. Let's avoid, for example, the idea that Toril's giants, dwarves and I don't know what else somehow also came from extra-planar Vikings or their gods.
Much more likely is that sapients with cultural similarities to societies on other worlds will develop similar gods. So, in some deep, cosmic way, perhaps Annam and Odin share a metaphysical connection. But they are still seperate beings in their own minds and even fight against one another. Their similarities, caused by their respective worshippers valuing much the same things in their ideal of leaders, do not draw them any closer. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 26 Feb 2012 04:02:43 |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 04:17:49
|
| Icelander, actually, I am in full agreement with you on a number of these points. First, Tyr (the only readily identifiable aspect of the Norse pantheon) doesn't belong in the Realms; Ed put him in because one of his original players really wanted him as a patron deity. I feel like a broken record with my next sentiment, but personally, I think the Realmsian Tyr is rather redundant with Torm, and I'm just as happy to be rid of him. But... because we know that this group of 'Vikings' arrived in -3,100 DR, it gives us a foundation for what Mark proposes re: the pantheons. But I agree... the powers themselves should, in most cases, remain separate beings, although I don't think the variation in species (as with Odin/Annam) is a factor; after all, we're talking about metaphysical entities who only assume physical form when it is convenient for them to do so. Or... in the case of the Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons... when they are required to do so as a result of barriers to their powers. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 04:26:56
|
First, a question for the mods: Is is possible for you to separate out the posts in Icelander's "Elephants etc" scroll that are related to this subject (starting at 14:30 14 Feb 2012) and OT to the original scroll) and move them from that scroll to this one... by moving the original posts, not just quoting them to here and then deleting the originals? I'd like to clean up Icelander's scroll, because it's the home of some fascinating Realmsian zoological discussion, and I'd like it to be returned to that purpose... as, I'm sure, would Icelander.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay (from Icelander's Elephants... etc scroll)
Like I said, I thought I discovered 'something' awhile back, while studying Faerun half-asleep with my eyes half-closed. I thought it might just be my tiredness playing tricks with me, and then I remembered (was reminded of, actually) the skull, and then I asked Ed a certain question, to which I received a very simple "yes".
Which map were you looking at... your own, the 3e FRCS, the FR Atlas maps, or ? And I'll assume that something geographical reminded you of the skull, so I won't ask what in particular... and I'll assume that the question asked was "is [feature x] a body?" |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 26 Feb 2012 04:29:01 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 05:53:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
First, Tyr (the only readily identifiable aspect of the Norse pantheon) doesn't belong in the Realms; Ed put him in because one of his original players really wanted him as a patron deity. I feel like a broken record with my next sentiment, but personally, I think the Realmsian Tyr is rather redundant with Torm, and I'm just as happy to be rid of him.
Ironically, Tyr, as he exists in the Realms, is not an element of the Norse pantheon at all.
The deific name Tyr* dates to a later period** in the time of Proto-Germanic people than the identification of 'The Power Later Known As Tyr' as a god of war***, a judge or arbiter of the law**** or even enough importance to justify him as one of the major gods in a pantheon. Basically, at any time after the power began to be called Tyr, he's no longer a god of justice or war, but at most a minor god of honour, with a specific role in a few older myths, but little current worship. Indeed, the most likely scenario is that 'The Power Later Known As Tyr' had these attributes at the latest some time Before Common Era and was gradually supplanted by Odin/Woten*****, having become of secondary importance well before proto-Germanic people were seperated by oceans (or could have been drown into gates in ships, as they didn't have any).
There is no reason to suppose that the Torilian Tyr is much related, if at all, to the power worshipped as Týr in Iceland and the Faroe Islands and Tyr in Denmark and Sweden. For one thing, the original PIE-word that evolved into 'tyr' was a word that meant simply 'God', cognate with what became 'deus' and 'deva'. Therefore, early Norse entering Toril through some form of portal might easily have applied the word stem '-tyr' as the head of an endocentric compound to all the gods they heard about in the new world. The specific nature of the god's responsibilities would then provide the word stem to act as the modifier, preceding the '-tyr' stem.
To take an example, Thrymtyr ('storm or fury god') would be a possible name for Talos and Sigtyr ('victory god') for Targus. There's no reason to suppose that they'd introduce any entirely new gods into the Realms, not unless there were no gods here then that could answer their prayers. And their prayers would be for victory, for rain at the proper times, for good wind at other times, etc. They aren't likely to have been overly worried about the letter of the law, being men more accustomed to resolving disputes either with weapons or with elders and adult warriors holding a thing about it. Legalism would have been foreign to them and the idea of justice as anything but 'what all of us think is right' as well.
The fact that the modern Tyr retains this part of his old name, used in Illusk, might be nothing but coincidence. It seems that he was not strongly worshipped in Illusk and, indeed, it would be strange if he was, so perhaps the linguistic oddity comes to us through another culture with contact with the Sword Coast where this god of justice and honour was popular.
The name Anachtyr used for Tyr in Calimshan gives us a hint. Perhaps the Talfir or the proto-Tethyrian or even some of the neighbours of Netheril worshipped a god which they called something in their own language which survived to the modern age first under a composite name, Illusk for the '-tyr' and something else, perhaps Talfiric, perhaps the original language of Mir or Coramshan humans, for the modifier. The elements of one-handedness and some other superficial aspects we recognise in 'Tyr' would have been introduced through propagation of myths from the wide-sailing Illusk******, but the portfolio and personality would be mostly a native Faerunian deity.
*As opposed to an earlier variation, such as Tiwaz/Teywas/Teivs/Teiva. It's the addition of that '-r' at the end that's the problem, as that wouldn't happen until you've got a fairly mature Old Norse, in the 8th century.
**As does the technological sophistication suggested by the existence of the longships and knarrs that the Ruathym/Illuskans seems to have arrived in, judging by their ability to survive the choppy waters of the Sea of Swords from the beginning.
***Woten/Odin had usurped almost all importance in relation to organised warfare between peoples or rival nobles, while the defence of the common people from all threats was the province of Thunorr/Thór. Both would have been more likely to be worshipped by any group of Norse in their ships, no matter their specific purpose.
****Odin was the ultimate judge, whose decisions were binding by virtue of his position, while later Forseti came to personify the kind of Solomonic wisdom that disputing parties might consensually ask to resolve their differences.
*****Originally a god of creativity, poetry and, consequently, magic. The explanation that as Proto-Germanic society transformed through new technology (iron), the god of creativity displaced the god of tradition and ritualised tribal warfare, is compelling but remains my private speculation, utterly without solid foundations.
******Seriously, they reach the Sword Coast in -3,100 DR, at a time where most human cultures there are at a Stone Age level of technology and those that are not still have no navies to speak of. Their ships represent a couple of millenia in technological advancement over what humans were sailing there before. They'd have had a lot of influence on the coastal area. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 06:16:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
First, Tyr (the only readily identifiable aspect of the Norse pantheon) doesn't belong in the Realms; Ed put him in because one of his original players really wanted him as a patron deity. I feel like a broken record with my next sentiment, but personally, I think the Realmsian Tyr is rather redundant with Torm, and I'm just as happy to be rid of him.
Ironically, Tyr, as he exists in the Realms, is not an element of the Norse pantheon at all.
<chop>
Oh! Good! Someone else who knows their mythic history, at least for the Norse pantheon. I was aware of a fair bit of the RW myth you posted, and it actually supports my reasoning that Tyr (the Norse deity) doesn't belong in the Realms, but I love how you've explained the FR deity as being more truly Realmsian in origin. And it follows naturally that the parallel stories of the god losing his right hand in the jaws of the archetypal canine are present in both worlds, because this is an event that took place on a metaphysical level, and thus was inter-pantheonic and inter-planar... at least that's how I would see it.
Very nice work, Icelander. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 15:05:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
I don't want to derail the conversation here, but I do have
to ask a question.
What is the desire to combine all facets of DD role playing
about. I don't understand why anyone would want (or even have
time for) trying to shoehorn everything into one overarching
(what's the best term) "streamlined multi-verse?" Just to
do the work of one ongoing campaign within one setting takes
hours of preparation, research, notetaking, reading: to say
nothing of the actual playing.
What drives all of you?
This is actually a VERY good question. I've seen some folk who want to drive everything into a compact "there is an power at the top that combines all these X into one". I personally don't like that idea and prefer the idea that each deity is trying to find his own way to "tap" into certain pieces of power (i.e. portfolios). Thus, for instance, Auppenser is "the" god of psionics, but Deep Duerra and Ilsensine and even Memnor are listed as having some ties to psionics as well and aren't servants of his. I'm fine with that (which is why I hate what 4E did).
I do like the idea in this topic that there might be "beast powers" in the realms though. There was already talk of a cat lord since 1st edition. Having these as immortal beings, but not necessarily very powerful in their own right would be interesting... and perhaps over time some have simply been "harnessed" for their potential power in rituals and such. In fact, I would find it interesting if a lot of these "beast lords" were now "vestiges" that binders can channel. Or perhaps the totemists (from magic of incarnum) are channeling the spirits of these beings.... i.e. maybe they channel the spirit of Lurue and Nobanion, etc.... This would also tie into Uthgardt culture, with its totem worship.
The things that drive me though are discovering where certain things might fit in the realms and then developing the history that might then surround such. Why? Quite simply, for years I did it for the fun of just trying to connect dot A with dot B.
I'm not real fond of the tendency to try and give a mass framework though that tries to explain everything. However, what some have done I really liked (there was a discussion years ago of defining faerie with a lot of the lore from other parts of the world that made the feywild seem more real to me, and not just some place filled with elves and faeries).
Like you, I don't see where the players tend to even see a lot of it. However, from speculation and feedback come ideas, from ideas come plots, from plots come adventure hooks or magic item ideas (especially intelligent items). Then, of course, there's the enjoyment of simply developing your own ideas. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 15:28:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Annam isn't human. Neither is Odin (he is an Aesir).
Two races worshiping different aspects of one power that is 'of' neither of those races, and yet has connections to both - thats hard to fathom? Especially considering the Norse excepted at least one other (non-human?) pantheon as part of their pantheon?
Odin has children with Giantesses that are considered Æsir - how can you not see the connection?
I peg Annam as a primordial (a greater {PS} Titan, or Jötunn). In FR, he has 'relations' with Othea (a giantess in the stories, but who appears to be more akin to an Archfey in 4e parlance). So we have two beings - Annam and Odin - who are both something along the lines of a 'High God', both referred to as 'the All-Father', and both have relations with ginatesses and by them have deities for children.
But yeah.... they are Waaaaaaay different...
I look at it this way - Annam was forced to leave Toril after siring FR giants. The stories about Odin didn't surface on Earth until many millenia later. During that period, Annam sought wisdom, and thats when he lost his eye. It really is easily reconcilable - Annam is the pre-wisdom version of Odin.
Eventually Odin's eye, along with Gruumsh/Talos', Vecna's, Eye of the Graii, and the All-seeing eye of Agamotto will be combined into the Cosmic Beholder Cube, and the universe will tremble beneath its gaze.
Odin wasn't the father of Surtr or Thrym. Odin wasn't the father of the giants (i.e. giants were around without Odin's creating them). Annam is seen as the father of the giant race. Odin and his people hated giants. Lots of reasons why I have problems with the two being the same person. I personally don't see that need to combine the two. Odin quite simply isn't in any canon reference to the realms that I know of. Some of his fellow beings are (Tyr), but I don't feel the need to shove him and the rest of the pantheon in. Tyr could just be an interloper deity who came over with a group of interplanar/spelljamming, especially since he only came to the realms relatively recently (around -247 DR).
Whether Kezef the Chaos hound is actually Fenris the Wolf, for instance, is a good question... and perhaps Ao allowed Tyr over to the realms for the mere purpose of once again entrapping a similiar beast (and maybe Amaunator was being torn apart by Tyr's encroachment). I've heard some think that Cyric is much like Loki, especially in the fact that he later freed Kezef... but I prefer these two entities to be similar but separate beings. Maybe the stories of one can give inspiration to what to do with the other, but they should be separate beings. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 15:54:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Icelander, actually, I am in full agreement with you on a number of these points. First, Tyr (the only readily identifiable aspect of the Norse pantheon) doesn't belong in the Realms; Ed put him in because one of his original players really wanted him as a patron deity. I feel like a broken record with my next sentiment, but personally, I think the Realmsian Tyr is rather redundant with Torm, and I'm just as happy to be rid of him. But... because we know that this group of 'Vikings' arrived in -3,100 DR, it gives us a foundation for what Mark proposes re: the pantheons. But I agree... the powers themselves should, in most cases, remain separate beings, although I don't think the variation in species (as with Odin/Annam) is a factor; after all, we're talking about metaphysical entities who only assume physical form when it is convenient for them to do so. Or... in the case of the Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons... when they are required to do so as a result of barriers to their powers.
Actually, speaking on a "cosmic" level for a second. At some point Amaunator disappeared and Lathander appeared. This would have left the portfolio of justice available. I'd believe the two probably had something to do with one another. Maybe Tyr's sacrifice of his hand in order to entrap the primordial Kezef made Ao happy. Maybe Kezef actually assaulted Amaunator and killed him, and Lathander was another interloper (maybe even Frey, since Lathander and Frey have a good deal in common as far as portfolios though not lore). Of course, this idea would have to coincide with the date of the dawn cataclysm, which is a whole other issue.
As an aside, oddly enough, all these dates are also around the time when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul also arose. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 17:53:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Actually, speaking on a "cosmic" level for a second. At some point Amaunator disappeared and Lathander appeared. This would have left the portfolio of justice available. I'd believe the two probably had something to do with one another. Maybe Tyr's sacrifice of his hand in order to entrap the primordial Kezef made Ao happy. Maybe Kezef actually assaulted Amaunator and killed him, and Lathander was another interloper (maybe even Frey, since Lathander and Frey have a good deal in common as far as portfolios though not lore). Of course, this idea would have to coincide with the date of the dawn cataclysm, which is a whole other issue.
And on that note, in Calimshan, one of the few continous civilisations from this time, Tyr is known as Anachtyr.
Minimal linguistic analysis could have this be a combination of the Illusk word for '-god' (-tyr) and another unknown language word, maybe Alzhedo, more likely Jhaamdathan or some language of the central Sword Coast, now lost. It could mean 'virtous god (lit. sinless god)', 'grim god' (lit. 'mourning god'). On the other hand, it might well mean 'returned god' (lit. 're-god or god-again'), assuming that the root stem used passed through some other language before being applied to the Illuskan -tyr.
Anachtyr is something that Illusk-Netherese societies could well have called a god that they felt was in some way a reincarnation of Aumanatar's justice portfolio. The god would have been called other things elsewhere, but no doubt the proto-Tethen and proto-Chondathan traders who picked up the idea simply called him Tyr and thus spread that common name all over Faerun, even coming to dominate over the original on the Sword Coast (everywhere but in Calimshan).
The correspondance with our world Tyr, primarily in the canid-biting-off-hand theme could have been a later development, arising from this accident of naming and some dimly-remembered myths of a similarly named god in ancient Illusk past.
Lathander, meanwhile, has much more in common with Apollo than he does with Frey. The first canon mention of the god has him active in 200 DR, but in -339 DR, he is clearly not widely know or perhaps not a god yet (and Aumanator solidly holds the portfolio he will come to be associated with).
The most plausible explanation for Lathander is simply that he represents the kind of vitality, optimism and sense of renewal that is necessary for anyone trying to rebuilt society. The Netherese and the Jhaamdathans, if they were to succeed in building anything at all again, would almost have had to construct some mythical figure of that sort.
Even Chessenta, devastated by the catastrophe that ended Jhaamdath and consequently coming to be dominated again by their old overlords in Unther, would have found the aspect of renewal and beginnings natural when they struck out to settle the Wizards' Reach.
From renewals, dawn is a natural association and no one was serving that portfolio (Aumanator was sinking into somnolence). As for the physical prowess and athleticism aspect, for that, I would blame the Chessentans. Once they had a young, active and popular god, they immediately started associating him with everything that they valued. Just be thankful that they already had plenty of war gods, or Lathander would have ended up as the Unconquered Sun.
Both Lathander and Tyr are thus simply fragments of Aumanator's* deific essence, given seperate forms, personalities and other aspects by the specific societies who came to venerate them.
*Who in turn is likely a composite of several other, older, gods. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 26 Feb 2012 17:55:02 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 19:27:20
|
Odin hated giants? You are referring strictly to the males, right? Because they were competition for the same GIANTESS women he himself liked to boink?
By that logic, I hate every man alive.
Seriously, you need to go back and read the myths themselves, not just mythology sources. He hung out with giants all the time - they all did. I am not saying they were 'bestest buds', but they certainly did interact all the time.
And how I combine things in my games is not what I think is canon for the Realms. We have canon for the Realms, and how I see things isn't necessarily always on-par with that (my own game-Realms are VERY different then TSR/WotC/Ed's). If others prefer to think that the entire universe is filled with 'cosmic coincidences' then that's fine, but I don't believe in coincidence. I believe that two similar deities both named Tyr, with their hands bitten off by a fiendish wolf should be aspects of the same being, but I guess I'm just weird that way.
The thread title begins with "My Thoughts:" for a reason.
Anyhow, the RW Tyr and the FR Tyr aren't the same person - I haven't been saying that. They'd probably fight if they were on the same world ("There can be only one"). All I am saying is that the power behind these deities - the power human consciousness taps-into and brings them 'to life' - is the same source.
Anyone around here who is a Planescape Junkie? Gray, perhaps? Someone who can tell us definitively in canon if the two Tyrs are one and the same?
The Ilmater one I'll give you... but I think there is probably some ancient connection there as well (a Faerunian demi-power taking-over for a falling interloping-power).
What I don't get is why someone who is a fan of the Forgotten Realms - a setting that revolves around the principle that it has connections to ALL other worlds - would want to find ways to explain everything WITHOUT using the main setting=premise. 
There are settings already like that - enclosed and separate from the rest - like Eberron (or worse, the insanely lackluster Kalamar). Why do people insist on turning FR into some other setting all the time? If you aren't happy with it, then feel free to be a fan of something different. Those kinds of attitudes got us 4e, and if they keep trying to change what makes FR so special, then it truly will become the Forgotten Realms.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 26 Feb 2012 19:37:43 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 19:39:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Actually, speaking on a "cosmic" level for a second. At some point Amaunator disappeared and Lathander appeared. This would have left the portfolio of justice available. I'd believe the two probably had something to do with one another. Maybe Tyr's sacrifice of his hand in order to entrap the primordial Kezef made Ao happy. Maybe Kezef actually assaulted Amaunator and killed him, and Lathander was another interloper (maybe even Frey, since Lathander and Frey have a good deal in common as far as portfolios though not lore). Of course, this idea would have to coincide with the date of the dawn cataclysm, which is a whole other issue.
And on that note, in Calimshan, one of the few continous civilisations from this time, Tyr is known as Anachtyr.
Minimal linguistic analysis could have this be a combination of the Illusk word for '-god' (-tyr) and another unknown language word, maybe Alzhedo, more likely Jhaamdathan or some language of the central Sword Coast, now lost. It could mean 'virtous god (lit. sinless god)', 'grim god' (lit. 'mourning god'). On the other hand, it might well mean 'returned god' (lit. 're-god or god-again'), assuming that the root stem used passed through some other language before being applied to the Illuskan -tyr.
Anachtyr is something that Illusk-Netherese societies could well have called a god that they felt was in some way a reincarnation of Aumanatar's justice portfolio. The god would have been called other things elsewhere, but no doubt the proto-Tethen and proto-Chondathan traders who picked up the idea simply called him Tyr and thus spread that common name all over Faerun, even coming to dominate over the original on the Sword Coast (everywhere but in Calimshan).
The correspondance with our world Tyr, primarily in the canid-biting-off-hand theme could have been a later development, arising from this accident of naming and some dimly-remembered myths of a similarly named god in ancient Illusk past.
Lathander, meanwhile, has much more in common with Apollo than he does with Frey. The first canon mention of the god has him active in 200 DR, but in -339 DR, he is clearly not widely know or perhaps not a god yet (and Aumanator solidly holds the portfolio he will come to be associated with).
The most plausible explanation for Lathander is simply that he represents the kind of vitality, optimism and sense of renewal that is necessary for anyone trying to rebuilt society. The Netherese and the Jhaamdathans, if they were to succeed in building anything at all again, would almost have had to construct some mythical figure of that sort.
Even Chessenta, devastated by the catastrophe that ended Jhaamdath and consequently coming to be dominated again by their old overlords in Unther, would have found the aspect of renewal and beginnings natural when they struck out to settle the Wizards' Reach.
From renewals, dawn is a natural association and no one was serving that portfolio (Aumanator was sinking into somnolence). As for the physical prowess and athleticism aspect, for that, I would blame the Chessentans. Once they had a young, active and popular god, they immediately started associating him with everything that they valued. Just be thankful that they already had plenty of war gods, or Lathander would have ended up as the Unconquered Sun.
Both Lathander and Tyr are thus simply fragments of Aumanator's* deific essence, given seperate forms, personalities and other aspects by the specific societies who came to venerate them.
*Who in turn is likely a composite of several other, older, gods.
Yeah, I could buy Apollo as Tyr too. Or, it could just be another lesser deity who rose to the occasion. Main thing we both seem to agree on, Amaunator fell around the same time Lathander and Tyr rose. This may or may not have also been right around the time that Kezef the Chaos Hound was chained. As far as I know, we don't know why Amaunator fell? We also know Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul rose about then. Was there any commonality to all these events? Was the Dawn Cataclysm around this time as well? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 19:41:04
|
| Just because it is connected to all other worlds doesn't mean every mystery in the setting needs to be explained with that, nor does it follow the FR is the main setting of Core D&D. Other people can be fans of the Forgotten Realms for different reasons. Some of us are attracted to the world itself. |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 22:51:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Actually, speaking on a "cosmic" level for a second. At some point Amaunator disappeared and Lathander appeared. This would have left the portfolio of justice available. I'd believe the two probably had something to do with one another. Maybe Tyr's sacrifice of his hand in order to entrap the primordial Kezef made Ao happy. Maybe Kezef actually assaulted Amaunator and killed him, and Lathander was another interloper (maybe even Frey, since Lathander and Frey have a good deal in common as far as portfolios though not lore). Of course, this idea would have to coincide with the date of the dawn cataclysm, which is a whole other issue.
As an aside, oddly enough, all these dates are also around the time when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul also arose.
I'd never made the Lathander-Frey connection, likely because, as you say, the lore doesn't connect.
Edit: I could totally buy Kezef assaulting Amaunator... because I just noticed something... Amaunator... Anachtyr... the names sound just enough alike that it might not be coincidence. It would also explain why the Realmsian Tyr also disappeared when Amaunator returned in Lathander's place during the Spellplague.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, I could buy Apollo as Tyr too. Or, it could just be another lesser deity who rose to the occasion. Main thing we both seem to agree on, Amaunator fell around the same time Lathander and Tyr rose. This may or may not have also been right around the time that Kezef the Chaos Hound was chained. As far as I know, we don't know why Amaunator fell? We also know Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul rose about then. Was there any commonality to all these events? Was the Dawn Cataclysm around this time as well?
If my previous speculation is accurate, we have the explanation for the "fall" of Amaunator... he simply transformed in nature due to his maiming by Kezef.
I would love to have the full story of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul... and I'd place their ascension around the time of the Fall of Netheril and the death/ascension of Mystryl/Mystra, just from what has been said in relatively recent canon on the subject (most of it from Ed and BRJ: "Knucklebones, Skull Bowling, and the Empty Throne" by Ed, "Ironfang Keep" by BRJ, and "Monuments of the Ancients" by the James Brothers. [/edit]
Mark: Anything to say regarding the Dawn Cataclysm? Or have you already said it elsewhere in CK? That wouldn't surprise me; I know I contributed what seems to me now to be half a scroll on the subject, a couple of years ago.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 26 Feb 2012 23:24:46 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 22:53:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Odin hated giants? You are referring strictly to the males, right? Because they were competition for the same GIANTESS women he himself liked to boink?
In authenticated early myths, three mothers of his divine sons, all numbered among the Ásynjur. It is true, one of them was a representative of the Earth itself, and thus giantish, at least, but she was not a 'Giant' in the sense of the racial/national classification of the myths, i.e. she did not live among the giants and her mating with Odin wasn't the kind of 'mixed marriage' as that with Skaði.
A lot of myths also indicate children with mortals. None of them indicate that he ever mated with anyone part of the giant 'tribe', who lived among them, spoke their langauge and obeyed their leaders.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
All I am saying is that the power behind these deities - the power human consciousness taps-into and brings them 'to life' - is the same source.
Well, fine. On the other hand, I imagine that this source is human imagination and cultural focus on given things. Thus, each culture that has a similar way of life and character will have similar gods. And the gods imagined on Earth aren't unique in any way, i.e. they are no more likely (or necessarily less) to be repeated across many worlds.
The reason we've seen more published 'real-world' pantheons than multi-sphere fantasy ones is simply that as real-world people, we are more interested in these.
In my world, at least, the number of gods is near infinite, because any time that people want to worship a given god, the odds are that an existing god will change slightly in order to accomodate it or that a new god will arise to meet it. And these gods don't necessarily have to merge with other similar ones, not until their ecological niches cross, i.e. they are present in the same world, among the same people.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What I don't get is why someone who is a fan of the Forgotten Realms - a setting that revolves around the principle that it has connections to ALL other worlds - would want to find ways to explain everything WITHOUT using the main setting=premise.
For the same reason that I don't like "it's turtles all the way down" as an explanation.
Saying that a given meme came from somewhere else isn't really explaining it. All you've done is add a new link to the chain of casuality. You still have to explain from whence it came to the previous place and then you have to explain how it got there and so on, ad infinitum.
In my opinion, if the conditions on the first spot where you see the meme are right, it is the cleanest and most sensible explanation to say that it simply originated there. Planar pathways to the Realms might as well be planar pathways from there. There's no reason to expect Realms-humans to be less creative than humans elsewhere. Why shouldn't they have come up with their own gods, by and large?
If there are similaries of mythic reasonance with gods elsewhere, well, that's because there are similiarities between the cultures and there are only so many types of stories in the world. A story that appeals to one culture will very likely appeal to another where the people make their living in much the same way. Also, proposing a lone planar traveller or two as the origi for a particular word, story or artistic rendition of a god is much more plausible and much less disruptive than to suppose that every time that a god is similar, it must have been brought over wholesale and fully-formed by a recognisable culture transplanted here.
If something is clearly linguistically or mythographically the same, then there is cause to think about a common origin. This is exemplified by the Mulan gods and by the clearly Greek terms and names used in Chessenta and Netheril. If something resembles a warped echo, it might just be because humans across the multiverse have remarkably similar imaginations. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 26 Feb 2012 22:54:37 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 04:30:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What I don't get is why someone who is a fan of the Forgotten Realms - a setting that revolves around the principle that it has connections to ALL other worlds - would want to find ways to explain everything WITHOUT using the main setting=premise.
There are settings already like that - enclosed and separate from the rest - like Eberron (or worse, the insanely lackluster Kalamar). Why do people insist on turning FR into some other setting all the time? If you aren't happy with it, then feel free to be a fan of something different. Those kinds of attitudes got us 4e, and if they keep trying to change what makes FR so special, then it truly will become the Forgotten Realms.
I'm a fan of the Forgotten Relams. I acknowledge and like the fact that the Realms has a lot of connections to other places.
That doesn't mean that I see a need to assume there's ever been anything more than little bits of traffic between places. That doesn't mean I need to find a way to draw connections to every little thing I can find that's not FR-specific. That doesn't mean that I attach great import to things that have only the barest similarity to others.
And I don't see how maintaining the Realms as a mostly-separate setting harms it in any way. I'm not turning it into anything it isn't already. It worked as a mostly-separate setting for 20 years, and what was done to it had nothing to do with the setting's prior connections elsewhere.
And I don't recall it being written anywhere that the Realms had connections to ALL other worlds. If it does, where are the Martians, the Space Wolves, the Davion Heavy Guards, the Jawas, the warjacks, the drunken priests of Cayden Cailean, the moredhel, or even Athas's feral halflings? Connections to a lot of worlds, yes. All worlds, no. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Feb 2012 04:36:41 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 05:07:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And I don't recall it being written anywhere that the Realms had connections to ALL other worlds. If it does, where are the Martians, the Space Wolves, the Davion Heavy Guards, the Jawas, the warjacks, the drunken priests of Cayden Cailean, the moredhel, or even Athas's feral halflings? Connections to a lot of worlds, yes. All worlds, no.
I think Markus might be referring to the fact that the Realms is one of many places linked by the Wood between the Worlds, which is a dimensional nexus featured by C.S. Lewis in The Magician's Nephew. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 05:16:16
|
Seal this.
I'm done. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
My thoughts: Vikings, Imaskari, & other wierdness
Topic Locked
