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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 02:13:12
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I'm aware that Chult is inhabited by elephants, most likely something similar to what we would call African elephants, though the African (bush) elephant proper is found on savannahs, not in jungles. In the jungles, there might be some equivalent to the African forest elephant instead, though.
Where else can elephants be found in the Realms? Are there any living near where the loxo live, on the Shaar, for example?
Is there any equivalent to the Indian elephant in the Realms? If so, where can they be found? What is their place in society? Is it used for labour or warfare?
Any scribe well-versed in the Kara-Turan setting ought to be able to remember something about elephants in the countries that are analoguous to real world Bhutan, the Malay and so forth. I'll try to find it myself, but it would be awesome if wiser scribes had some lore for me.
What about the extinct-in-our-world North African elephant? Those are the famous war elephants of Hannibal and are distinguished from African bush elephants by being tamable. Can these be found anywhere in the Realms?
Does any culture use war elephants in the Realms?
What about ivory? How is it gathered? Are elephants frequently hunted for it? Is it sought after?
What about other famous animals? Where can one find lions in the Realms? What about tigers?
Real world climate is often little help, as the Realms seem to have a tendency to place torrid tropical countries due north from more temperate places (Unther is north of Luiren, for example). This is no doubt explained by magic, divine or arcane, in many cases.
What animals could one expect to encounter in the Methwood in Unther, for example? Are there big cats? Or what sort?
What kind of animals would decadent Gilgeam have pitted against unfortunate slaves in his arenas? What would the crowd consider commonplace, if dangerous, and what would be exotic and exciting?
Is a tiger an amazing sight in the Vilhon Reach, more surprising than seeing a monster like an owlbear or leucrotta, or is it something that everyone knows what is because it can be found somewhere nearby?
What about lions? These appear to be found in the Gulthmere forest. That's fairly northerly, surely, not more than 200 miles or so from Cormyr, which appears to be a temperate land. Where do these lions come from? Maybe they're there because of divine magic, which is more than good enough for me, but where else can one find lions?
The Shaar? Are there lions there? What other impressive* animals are to be found on the Shaar?
*To arena managers, for one.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 02:37:11
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There are elephants in Mulhorand, oddly enough. One of them makes a cameo appearance in Elaine's Wizardwar trilogy, where it's getting attacked by a Halruaan mob due to it being the symbol of Mulhorand, who the wizards had just defeated. I don't think they're detailed in the original Old Empires set, though, which is the only canon detailing that area ever got.
Personally, the image of an ancient Egypt-based culture with elephants is a little... okay. But hey, every each his own, and there's certainly stranger stuff in the Realms. They do have lions in Mulhorand, though. They're closely associated with the god Anhur, so that his divine minions come back as lion shape changers.
I never realized how out of place that is as well, until now. But at least there's a basis for the occasional odd animal in Mulhorand.
Are you populating an arena of horrors? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 02:53:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
There are elephants in Mulhorand, oddly enough. One of them makes a cameo appearance in Elaine's Wizardwar trilogy, where it's getting attacked by a Halruaan mob due to it being the symbol of Mulhorand, who the wizards had just defeated. I don't think they're detailed in the original Old Empires set, though, which is the only canon detailing that area ever got.
That's odd. Elephants are symbols of Mulhorand, then?
This is vital information for me, actually, as my PCs are engaged in a war with Mulhorand, so if they have war elephants, they'll definately notice it. ;)
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Personally, the image of an ancient Egypt-based culture with elephants is a little... okay. But hey, every each his own, and there's certainly stranger stuff in the Realms.
Mulhorand used to rule in Durpar, though. Could have picked up the elephants there, if there are elephants in Durpar. If not, the Imaskari ruled enough territory to make it plausible to have picked up the local equivalent to Indian elephants to the east and transported them back as useful labour.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
They do have lions in Mulhorand, though. They're closely associated with the god Anhur, so that his divine minions come back as lion shape changers.
I know Anhurites change into lions, yes, but I've never known if this means that there are actual non-magical lions living in Mulhorand. For all I know, Mulan could regard lions as merely symbols of Anhur and not a natural beast at all.
But there is at least an excellent chance that there are lions on the Shaar, which would mean that the Mulhorand would have cause to know them and be able to import as many as they wanted.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I never realized how out of place that is as well, until now. But at least there's a basis for the occasional odd animal in Mulhorand.
That it is.
I still have trouble with imagining the climate of Mulhorand and Unther. It is described as being very hot and at least in parts, very dry. Yet it is located north of places that are described as being quite temperate and seeing as both Unther and Mulhorand are largely coastal states, they have a nice ocean to temper the heat.
They ought to be pleasantly warm, but are described as hellishly hot.
In my games, I'll probably assume that the attentions of Ra and later, Horus-Re, as well as Gilgeam, had the effect of more sunlight than their geographical location would justify.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Are you populating an arena of horrors?
Well, I do have occasional trips to the arena in my games, but usually as spectators and gamesters, not Christians-to-the-lions. Still, it's nice to know what animals are likely to be found in the arenas of Reth and how this changes when one travels further east, into Unther.
Mainly this was meant to establish the fauna of places like Unther, Mulhorand and the northern Vilhon Reach.
The PCs frequent all of those and soon enough, they'll be going into the Methwood and I need to know what the Methwood is like. I already know that despite heroic Untheri Merry Men resisting the invading Mulhorandi, it will bear little resemblence to the Sherwood in climate, flora or fauna.
But what is it like? Is it like a Thai jungle, with leopards and tigers, as well as monsters? What are the most important dangers there that do not wear armour and walk on two legs? |
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Edited by - Icelander on 07 Feb 2012 03:27:18 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 04:17:08
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Lets not forget the wildlife distribution was different in the ancient Egyptian period. Elephants were very common to north Africa and a common sight around the lower southern banks of the Nile. In the modern period lions' range is limited to Africa. That range is greatly reduced from what it was. The lion ranged as far north as Bavaria in the dark ages.
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 04:43:54
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The Cyclopedia of the Realms from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Box Set (1987) mentions ivory used in Cormyr coming from various sources:
"ELMINSTER'S NOTES: The city is justly famous for its bazaars, its ivory sculptors and clothmakers. Of the former, hundreds of winters of ivory gleaned from the "Utter East" and hot jungles of the South has found its way across the Inner Sea in great shiploads of raw tusk and fragments, and here been fashioned into inlays and goods for Amn, the North, and the Sword Coast cities. Of the latter, wool is woven
as well in the Sembian city of Daerlun, but those who work looms in Suzail hold that their work is finer, and the colors more true and more lasting.
GAMING INFORMATION: Ivory is a semi-precious material, which is enhanced in beauty (and value) in its carving. Raw ivory is purchased for Suzailian craftsmen by the pound, at 1 gold piece per pound for large chunks, half that shattered scraps suitable for enlay. Elephant, mammoth, and walrus ivory all command standard prices, but that of rare or magical beasts can gather prices up to 10 times standard."
Forgotten Realms Adventures (TSR 2106) lists ivory under it's Hardstones section of the Treasure chapter and the same info can be found in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical:
"Ivory (or dentine): The substance that provides the teeth of all mammals. Whenever the teeth or tusks are large enough, they can be used for carving - thus, it comes from the tusks of the elephant, the teeth of the hippopotamus, and the tusks of the walrus, narwhal, and boar, and the teeth of the cachalot whale. Tiny quantities of fossil ivory (from prehistoric elephants, mastodons, and sabre-toothed tigers) can also be found here. Ivory also comes from other creatures such as behemoths, mammoths, and umber hulks.
Unicorn horns, it should be noted, are not used for ornamental carving, and command prices of thousands of gold pieces from alchemists. The price of ivory depends on its hardness and durability, its hue and any mottling of colors, and the shine or surface it can take. Prices depend on current preferences; what is valued highly in a particular place or time can be extremely cheap elsewhere and elsewhen. "
In Old Empires under the Methwood section of Unther it also mentions elephants:
"Methwood - This large, hot woodland is filled with cypress, date palms, cedar, juniper, and mulberry trees, with lots of vine growth. The vegetation is very thick and difficult to travel through without using a blade to cut the thick vines. There are a number of elephants, monkeys, leopards, and other, less dangerous, creatures within the confines of this forest. "
Shining South mentions elephants in a couple places:
in the Human, Shaaryan section:
"The nomads hunt antelope, bison, boar, and elephant, all of which provide them sustenance, food, shelter, and tools. "
In the random encounters table for Durpar, Estagund and Var the Golden elephant is a listed random encounter
Elephants are also a random encounter on the Halruaa table.
The Jungles of Chult FR Adventure (TSR 9389) also mentions elephants and hippos in it's mundane animal section:
"Chult is home to many of the largest "normal" animals in the Realms. The elephant, rhino, and hippo are common. The behemoth, a larger relative of the hippo, inhabits isolated waterways. "
Ed also mentions elephants in Chult in an answer about riding and saddles from 2008:
"As one moves southeast and east, one finds increasing use of something almost unknown in western Faerûn (except Chult, where it of old was used on elephants): the goad, or hooked (sometimes barbed) rod, wielded by the rider to claw at the shoulders or head of the mount. "
Elephants and Ivory are also mentioned in The Horde Boxed Set.
Empires of the Sands mentions elephants being kept in Manshaka, a city in Calimshan:
"Cattle are still the most common animals found, but they are joined in Manshaka holding pens by pigs, sheep, buffalos, elephants, dromedaries, chickens, and deer, among other things."
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 11:12:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
That's odd. Elephants are symbols of Mulhorand, then?
This is vital information for me, actually, as my PCs are engaged in a war with Mulhorand, so if they have war elephants, they'll definately notice it. ;)
Methinks, you answered your own question: they're certainly one of noticeable features. 
quote:
Originally posted by rjfras
Elephants are also a random encounter on the Halruaa table.
Hmm, interesting - locals, or descendants of Mulhorand ones? |
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And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 14:13:40
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| Icelander- why all of the recent curiosity about the zoological side of Faerun? I noticed your whale thread too and was just curious. |
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Edited by - Artemas Entreri on 07 Feb 2012 14:13:57 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 15:33:34
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| Also, in Maztica, there were elephants. One culture in particular had some affinity for them (either Nog or Kadar... Iknow there there a lot of elephant sculptures). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 16:44:06
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Not quite. Nog and Kadaro are in Zakhara, not Maztica. I did a quick search of the Maztica box, and there aren't any mentions of elephants there.
Elephants are, however, all over eastern Zakhara. As are tigers and a host of other dangerous creatures. And Sleyvas is correct, there is a place that used to worship them. It's the island of Afyal, though the name of their elephantine god has been forgotten and he's now called the Lost One.
Not that's going to help much for the Old Empires, but I suppose at least a few of the Halruaan elephants could conceivably come from Zakhara instead. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 16:50:30
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quote:
Originally posted by HoondathaPersonally, the image of an ancient Egypt-based culture with elephants is a little... okay. But hey, every each his own, and there's certainly stranger stuff in the Realms.
It's actually a good thing if Mulhorand isn't completely the same as ancient Egypt. And plus as others said North African elephants existed in the real world, so it's not that big a stretch than an Egyptian-style culture would use them even if they didn't in real life. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 17:18:05
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Icelander- why all of the recent curiosity about the zoological side of Faerun? I noticed your whale thread too and was just curious.
Well, the initial spur of interest was probably reading Wilbur Smith. I got to thinking about his adventurers, from the 17th century onwards, and how they were usually hunters as well as traders.
What information I found in sourcebooks was fragmentary and inconsistent. Basically, I found I had no clear idea of what kind of animals the PCs were likely to encounter in the very different locales they visited and I had no idea from where in Faerun or wider Toril cultures would import ivory, spermaceti or exotic animals for arenas.
Seeing as the PCs raided Mulhorandi ships and were likely to start raiding their caravans as well, I needed to know what valuables were likely to be found on those and where they were coming from. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 18:26:30
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HOMEBREW:
In the Utter East thread (at WotC), we came up with an FR 'Oliphaunt' (based on the ME Oliphant), which was double-trunked variety of elephant very similar to the ones from the movie.
I have also place a rare breed of Elephant (called a Pyrophant) in Chult, around The Peaks of Flame. It shoots a stream of 'liquid fire' - similar to Greek Fire - from its trunk, and it uses this to keep many of the flying predators in the region at bay (Arakocra, Pterrans, Wyverns, Pterramen, Raptorrans, and dino-flyers like Pteradactyls and prehistoric birds). The volcanic region is rife with such creatures, because the mountains are riddled with lava-caves. The creatures (Pyrophants) have a harder skin, more like a Rhinoceros, and their feet are slightly splayed, because they live in the region were the foothills of those mountains meet the jungle, and the terrain is rockier then where normal pachyderms dwell. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Feb 2012 06:58:14 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 19:00:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
HOMEBREW:
In the Utter East thread (at WotC), we came up with an FR 'Oliphaunt' (based on the ME Oliphant), which was double-trunked variety of elephant very similar to the ones from the movie.
Based on any canon support for the idea?
I don't like yoinking oliphants wholesale if there isn't any good reason for it.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have also place a rare breed of Elephant (called a Pyrophant) in Chult, around The Peaks of Flame. It shoots a stream of 'liquid fire - similar to Greek Fire - from its trunk, and it uses this to keep many of the flying predators in the region at bay (Arakocra, Pterrans, Wyverns, Pterramen, Raptorrans, and dino-flyers like Pteradactyls and prehistoric birds). The volcanic region is rife with such creatures, because the mountains are riddled with lava-caves. The creatures (Pyrophants) have a harder skin, more like a Rhinoceros, and their feet are slightly splayed, because they live in the region were the foothills of those mountains meet the jungle, and the terrain is rockier then where normal pachyderms dwell.
This, however, I very much like and will steal shamelessly. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 19:25:21
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No - we just wanted them there (there is a India-like culture there - the Mar), and we also wanted to tie them into the Loxo (which we also gave a country to - Sragadha - which is also completely non-canon), which is why they have two trunks (we called them Bilophants, actually)
We were just trying to tie-up a few loose ends, and connected some of it to the Isle of the Elephant, which also has ties to a Vedic/India culture (through fallen Tempat Larang).
The Isle of the Elephant has semi-sentient Elephants (something akin to a group 'over-mind'), because the essence of some ancient pachyderm-power was spread out there (this part is canon). Considering the nearby activity of the Vedic pantheon (also canon), I theorized this was a vestige of Ganesha.
By the way, the Sragadha king is based on Babar... I can get silly sometimes. 
{Minus the suit, of course - give him some traditional 'Indianesque' vestments befitting a king.} |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2012 00:01:44 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 07:24:33
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Given that Chult is a jungle and it has an African jungle vibe, I'm going to assume that the elephants there resemble African forest elephants. I'm pretty cool with assuming pyrophants as part-elemental species living near volcanoes, as that's pleasantly fantastical.
It's not hard to assume that elephants from Chult once ranged all over that peninsula, through Lapalaliya and east to the Shaar. Those lands that were heavily settled by humans (and/or ophibian peoples) might have ceased to appeal to the great herds, with some of them prefering the savannahs of Shaar and others staying in the jungles of Tashalar and Chult. This gives two primary subspecies, the smaller jungle one and the larger savannah one.
They might even have ventured as far north as the Lake of Steam and thence to what is now Calimshan. The elephants found in Manshaka, Calimshan, would then be the remnants of that population. That could be the Realmsian equivalent to the North African elephant (now extinct). Of course, they could also just be imported from over the sea, which might be preferable.
Looking over the Kara-Tur materials, it seems that with how closely those are based on real world cultures, there is an equivalent to Asian elephants there. While specimens can be found as far north as the Chigidi mountains, it is unclear whether this reflects their natural range or whether they are imported from further south.
I'm comfortable with stating that these Kara-Turan elephants are as similar to each other as the real-world Asian elephants, making them substantially the same species, whether in Laothan, out to the islands, in the jungles of Malatra or down to the southern tip of that subcontinent.
The question is, though, how far west does this population extend? The elephants of the Sempadan, are they Kara-Turan elephants? I would tend to think so. From there, it would be natural to assume that in the Utter East, you got the same kind of elephants as you had in the Sempadan, as it seems that Indian-esque elements have travelled north from the Malatran subcontinent, reaching up all the way to Durpar and Solon in the Godswatch Mountains.
But what about the elephants of Mulhorand? Are they Kara-Turan elephants, obtained during the rule of that empire over the Durpari and Ulgarth barbarians (very plausible). Or are they Shaaran elephants?
Given that the Shaar is a savannah, this argues that the elephants there would grow larger than the Kara-Turan elephants, much like the difference between the African bush elephant and the Asian elephant in our world. I would not be surprised if this carried over into similar temperaments as well, with the Shaaran elephants being much harder, nearly impossible even, to train and control (without magic, at least). This argues that whatever the elephants in Mulhorand are, they are not pure Shaaran animals.
This leaves imported Kara-Turan elephants or a new species, perhaps one equivalent to the now-extinct North African elephants in our world.
With the different geography of the Realms from our world, I favour Mulhorandi elephants being descended from Kara-Turan ones, given that Kara-Turan ones would have made it to the Raurin alta pretty early (Solon is old).
The elephants of Unther, found in the Methwood, are a bit of a problem. Do we make them the westernmost examples of the Kara-Turan species or something else? In real world terms, it makes little sense for the huge savannah animals that roam the Shaar to want to live in a thick forest like the Methwood and if there are descendants of them there, they would be smaller and possible more docile. On the other hand, that would mean a population of Realms-equivalent to African forest elephants living both in Chult and in Unther, which is pretty strange.
Thoughts? |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 13:24:22
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You've put a lot of thought into this. Very impressive.
As for the Methwood, and bearing in mind that it's been a while since I've read Old Empires, I'd go with a forest elephant, rather than a Shaaran elephant. Whether they're from Chult or Kara-tur I leave up to you, but I will suggest a reason: Gilgeam did it. He wanted to build the Methwood into a private hunting preserve, so populated it with animals that would be interesting for him to hunt. He tried originally with Shaaran elephants, but they didn't do well in the forest, so he got some elephants that would.
If you decide to go with the Kara-turan elephants, I would make them the decendents of a gift from the Mulhorandi gods, back in the days when relations were more cordial. They knew he was looking for some forest elephants, so they sent him a pack or two from their eastern holdings.
Hey, there are buffalo on Catalina Island off the coast of Los Angeles, left there from being brought in as background for filming a western in the 1950's. No reason there can't be elephants in Unther. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 13:46:43
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Always take the term docile with a grain of salt when mentioned alongside elephants. People around domesticated elephants die quite easily. A single misstep can be fatal, because there is no stopping an elephant wheighing at least 2 ton. Indian male elephants have a terrible frenzy each year during mating season and need to be chained and avoided.
Leopards would be my guess for the most prevalent big cat in the Methwood. Didn't the Methwood have a large part of the forest covered in a cold zone because of some fey prince curse? Perhaps some snowleopards and woolly mammoths came wandering over from the winter feywilds.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 14:18:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Always take the term docile with a grain of salt when mentioned alongside elephants. People around domesticated elephants die quite easily. A single misstep can be fatal, because there is no stopping an elephant wheighing at least 2 ton. Indian male elephants have a terrible frenzy each year during mating season and need to be chained and avoided.
(innocently): so... a module based on "Municipal", anyone? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 19:33:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Leopards would be my guess for the most prevalent big cat in the Methwood. Didn't the Methwood have a large part of the forest covered in a cold zone because of some fey prince curse? Perhaps some snowleopards and woolly mammoths came wandering over from the winter feywilds.
You just put the image of a fey elephant with butterfly wings into my head. Thanks. Although a leopard with wasp wings isn't bad. |
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Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 20:08:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Leopards would be my guess for the most prevalent big cat in the Methwood.
Sounds about right. I do wonder whether there are lions there (the Shaar is very close and there are canonically lions on the Shaar) or tigers (there are apparently tigers in the Chondalwood, which is also very close).
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Didn't the Methwood have a large part of the forest covered in a cold zone because of some fey prince curse? Perhaps some snowleopards and woolly mammoths came wandering over from the winter feywilds.
Fey prince curse? I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Do you have the source for this somewhere? Where can I find it? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 20:40:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Not quite. Nog and Kadaro are in Zakhara, not Maztica. I did a quick search of the Maztica box, and there aren't any mentions of elephants there.
Elephants are, however, all over eastern Zakhara. As are tigers and a host of other dangerous creatures. And Sleyvas is correct, there is a place that used to worship them. It's the island of Afyal, though the name of their elephantine god has been forgotten and he's now called the Lost One.
Not that's going to help much for the Old Empires, but I suppose at least a few of the Halruaan elephants could conceivably come from Zakhara instead.
Sorry, brain fart, yeah Zakhara. I had the world map in my head correct, though :-)
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 20:42:17
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Lion prides don't favor heavily wooded areas, thats more the domain of the slightly smaller, more agile and solitary leopards and tigers. Tigers I would place in a more watery forest or swamp, which don't fit in the Methwood.
I think I saw the curse mentioned in the old 2ed Old Empires supplement of a friend of mine. Basicly an outcast noble fey prince is tied to a particular haunt in the Methwood, a large open clearing dominated by a single tall cedarwood tree. Here coldfrosted fauns, bauriar and centaurs have patrolled the area for centuries, protecting a dead or (dormant) wintery body of the prince hidden in the tangles of the cedarwood roots.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 20:54:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
You've put a lot of thought into this. Very impressive.
Not yet, at any rate. I still have some trouble with visualising the fauna of each region of the Realms.
The ranges of monsters that fit into the ecology is another thing I'd like to know more about. After all, it makes sense that different monsters inhabit different regions of the Realms and while abberations exist in the form of far-roaming or gated-in critters, you ought to be able to say 'to hunt the wild [insert monster], you need to go to the [insert geographical area, preferably remote]'.
I know giant owlbears used to live in Cormanthor, so it's likely that normal owlbears do too. But what about other monsters? What are the most common 'monstrous animals', monsters numerous enough to have a clearly defined role in the ecology and a noticable impact? Where do they range?
Elminster's Ecologies were a lot of help for this, actually, but that leaves me pretty much in the dark for places like Chondath, Chessenta, Unther, Mulhorand, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
As for the Methwood, and bearing in mind that it's been a while since I've read Old Empires, I'd go with a forest elephant, rather than a Shaaran elephant. Whether they're from Chult or Kara-tur I leave up to you, but I will suggest a reason: Gilgeam did it. He wanted to build the Methwood into a private hunting preserve, so populated it with animals that would be interesting for him to hunt. He tried originally with Shaaran elephants, but they didn't do well in the forest, so he got some elephants that would.
Love this idea!
Obviously, Gilgeam stocked the Methwood to be his own private hunting reserve. It makes perfect sense and it adds to the adventuring possibilities! I would like to hear suggestions of cool animals or animalistic monsters that he could have stocked it with.
I've decided to make Mulhorandi elephants descendants of Imaskari stock, taken from the east a long, long time ago. Being bred for size in pharaonic captivity has made them larger than most Kara-Turan elephants and they are almost as big as Shaaran ones, but easier to train. It makes sense, if they are a national symbol, for them to be something of which Mulhorand can be proud.
Durpar and Ulgarth have Kara-Turan elephants available, used for heavy labour and occasionally for warfare. However, elephants are not as common there as they are south of the Yehimals, in the Sempadan and beyond, in the Indian-esque regions on the coast of the Malatran subcontinent.
The Shining Lands, of course, also have Shaaran elephants. Estagund and Var sometimes buy Durpari elephants to use for labour, as the Shaaran ones are so intransigent. The two species are different enough so that they cannot interbreed without magic, however, so they have not managed to come up with a cross-breed.
The elephants in the Methwood are Durpari ones, I think. In the thousand+ years since Gilgeam got them, they'll have had time to grow slightly smaller on average than most Kara-Turan beasts, but are still basically the same breed. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 21:07:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Lion prides don't favor heavily wooded areas, thats more the domain of the slightly smaller, more agile and solitary leopards and tigers. Tigers I would place in a more watery forest or swamp, which don't fit in the Methwood.
Very good. I don't think the Chondalwood is especially watery, but it has tigers nonetheless. In any event, I'm not wedded to the idea.
Lions in the Gulthmere are very much canonical, of course. These may not be normal lions or there for natural reasons, given the lion-God Nobanion and his fondness of the place.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I think I saw the curse mentioned in the old 2ed Old Empires supplement of a friend of mine. Basicly an outcast noble fey prince is tied to a particular haunt in the Methwood, a large open clearing dominated by a single tall cedarwood tree. Here coldfrosted fauns, bauriar and centaurs have patrolled the area for centuries, protecting a dead or (dormant) wintery body of the prince hidden in the tangles of the cedarwood roots.
Sounds very evocative, but unfortunately, there is no such thing in the Methwood section of Old Empires and zero instances of 'fey' in that book.
Anywhere else you could have seen it? I'm very interested in fey activity in the Old Empires, as I would have previously guessed there wasn't any. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 23:55:28
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Actually, there IS precedent for lions and elephants in more desert regions- there are a (admittedly few) herds in the border regions of the Sahara even today (and were far more common in past ages when the desert was much smaller) and some of these even range into the truly arid parts during part of their migrations. Lions can and do live in a few swampy areas of Africa. (There is a pride in one particular region that has even adaptedto live almost entirely in a swamp.) And yes, both animals once roamed over far greater areas than they do today- we can thank humans for reducing it so far. As for forest vs savannah elephants, the forest ones would be closer to an Indian elephant (smaller ears, narrower body, a little shorter). There is even a "pygmy" elephant in the Java/Borneo.Sumatra region last I checked it was still around. They are much smaller and have smaller tusks than the other two.
If you're in need of inspiration or useful info, I suggest looking up the Nat Geo site, which should have articles and pics that will help you. Their mags often provide me with all sorts of useful stuff. Find some back issues your library or local doctor/dentist office is getting rid of. They recently did an entire issue on endangered big cats! Great stuff!
LOL, I always KNEW my bio-nerdiness would come in handy for something! Finally, I get to use my nature lore skill for something useful!! |
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"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 00:20:40
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Don't know if any of this has been brought up yet - some Horde tribes use elephants. That is evidence of an 'Asian' (Kara-Turran) Elephant existing in FR.
Check the Almaqu entry, pg.79 of the Kara-Tur boxed set for more.
EDIT:
Semphar and Murghôm have elephants - IIRC, the Tuigan who use elephants get them from Semphar (I can't find that source ATM). Semphar is a survivor-state of Imaskar (the oldest surviving nearly intact), and since the original Imaskari were Muhjari, and the Muhjein came from The Golden waters region, who in-turn emigrated north from Zakhara ages ago (only this very last part is conjecture, the rest is canon). Ergo, the Tuigan elephants most-likely are of Zakharan origin, rather then Kara-Turran.
THIS is an illustration from pg.98 of The Horde box - ostensibly, all of these caravans/expeditions originate from the north (Semphar & Murghôm). The southern nations (Durpar and the Shining Lands) do not explore into the desert - it is considered mostly taboo (from events that occur in Desert of Desolation), because they were subjugated by the Imaskari in times past. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2012 01:32:06 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 01:46:00
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Nice catch on the Kara-tur book mention, Markus.
And Alystra, they said you were crazy to put your Knowledge points in Nature. They said you were mad. You showed them!  |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 02:37:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Don't know if any of this has been brought up yet - some Horde tribes use elephants. That is evidence of an 'Asian' (Kara-Turran) Elephant existing in FR.
Check the Almaqu entry, pg.79 of the Kara-Tur boxed set for more.
Aye, I had noted that.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT:
Semphar and Murghôm have elephants - IIRC, the Tuigan who use elephants get them from Semphar (I can't find that source ATM). Semphar is a survivor-state of Imaskar (the oldest surviving nearly intact), and since the original Imaskari were Muhjari, and the Muhjein came from The Golden waters region, who in-turn emigrated north from Zakhara ages ago (only this very last part is conjecture, the rest is canon). Ergo, the Tuigan elephants most-likely are of Zakharan origin, rather then Kara-Turran.
That's assuming that there are elephants in Zakhara. Are there?
I know that there are elephants in Sempadan, at the northeast edge of Zakhara, but judging from the map, it would be natural enough for that to be the range of the same species as that which inhabits Kara-Turn, down to the southernmost edges of the Malatran subcontinent. There are also elephants on Ayfal, obviously, but those a) Have some divine origin and b) Given that it is an island, it is not much less plausible that they were originally transported over the sea from the Indian-esque lands on the western shore of the Malatran subcontinent than that they have been transported from the Zakharan 'mainland'.
On the other hand, if there is evidence of elephants existing on the Zakharan sub-continent proper, I would be glad indeed to declare them either a seperate species or at the very least a distant sub-species related to the Chultan and Shaaran ones (I like that, actually).
What would settle the matter would be a picture from the Zakharan setting, clear enough to allow us to see if the elephants are 'Asian' or 'African'.
Hmmm... diligent searching assures me that elephants exist in many places of the Zakharan subcontinent. In the Furrowed Mountains, elephant caravans are common and judging from place names, they are found in Nog and Kadar. Yes, I'm quite sure that there are elephants aplenty.
Illustrations are harder. I can find an illustration of the Lost One of Ayfal, where the ears clearly suggest 'Asian' elephants, not 'African' ones, but it is not altogether impossible that the elephants of Ayfal are not related to the ones found on the sub-continent proper. The picture of the roc taking away an elephant is not clear enough so that I can make out the species of the elephant, but if pressed, I'd say 'Asian'.
Based on this, I've got two options. Option the first, suppose that in some distant past, Kara-Turan elephants made their way up from Malatra, through some paths in the Yehimals and into Sempadan, thence populating the territories of Nog, Kadar, Ayfal and eventually the northerly reaches of Zakhara.
Option the second, assume that the elephants of the eastern coast of Zakhara (or just Ayfal) came there with the people who settled Ayfal and clearly had some elements of Devic culture. The elephants in northern Zakhara might just as well have made it over the Great Sea, since it is not that far to lands that would have had elephants at some point, such as what was there before Halruua, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
THIS is an illustration from pg.98 of The Horde box - ostensibly, all of these caravans/expeditions originate from the north (Semphar & Murghôm). The southern nations (Durpar and the Shining Lands) do not explore into the desert - it is considered mostly taboo (from events that occur in Desert of Desolation), because they were subjugated by the Imaskari in times past.
Those are very clearly 'Asian' elephants, which fits neatly with them being originally brought home by Imaskari conquerors. They'd have had access to the range of the Kara-Turan herds in what later became Khazari and further east, not to mention that they are likely to have found elephants brought by Devic 'barbarians' (or quite advanced civilisations) that they encountered in the Utter East.*
*Evidence of which are easily seen in ruined Solon. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 03:09:03
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I discover that camels in Zakhara and Calimshan have one hump and are named dromedaries, those in the Hordelands are shaggier and have two humps (even being called 'bactrian' camels) and those found on the Plain of Horses are of the single-humped variety.
That's a bit odd, but can perhaps be explained by the 'bactrian' ones being adapted to the mountains and foothills of the Mountaisn of Copper, Spiderhaunt Peaks, Godswatch Mountains and the Katakoro Shan; with dromadaries outperforming them (or simply being prefered) elsewhere.
Doesn't quite tell us why the ethnically and culturally similar tribes of the Plains of Horses and the Great Amber Steppes don't use the same kind, especially since the dromadaries of the Plains of Horses must be used to travel the Silk Road, which crosses through the steppes. Perhaps the Tuigan don't like them because they can't travel into places as high and as cold as the 'bactrian' ones?
What about Semphar and Murghom? Do they use camels and if they do, are those 'bactrian' ones from the mountains or dromedaries from somewhere else? Naturally, Semphar inevitably has some camels, if only those who travel there from the east, but I wonder if they are bred there natively.
Furthermore, given this information, I wonder whether there are camels in Mulhorand, Unther and the Shining Lands (and further west and north, perhaps?).
Assuredly they can be found in Ulgarth, if only 'bactrian' ones from the mountains that they border.
Should they be found in the Shining South? I incline to 'yes', given that they have two plausible sources for them, from Zakhara over the Great Sea and 'bactrian' ones from the mountains to their east.
What about the Old Empires? Do they use them, at all, or are they uncouth and barbaric? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 05:34:15
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There are elephants in Zakhara - the eastern side (including Afyal, the Isle of the Elephant).
You can see this HERE. I also noted Sahu, the Island of the Necromancer Kings (who's lore is located in The Complete Book of Necromancers, naturally).
I think both the Kara-Turran and Zakharan elephants originated from the lower K-T (Malatra) region, and would be different from the Chult/Shaar breed.
There are also tiny little elephants on the island of Bulta (pg.55, Pirates of the Fallen Stars), which the narration calls "efalants" (which could merely be mispronunciation from an uneducated pirate).
Camels:
The Endless Wastes aren't desert - they are broken steppes, and very rough terrain in most areas. The Hordelands probably has both breeds, because of the two deserts located therein (the Raurin is a true, sandy desert, whilst the Quoya is more like Anauroch).
There are also both Zakharan and Horde-specific breeds of centaur. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2012 05:39:35 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 05:53:48
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| I find this thread beautiful. Here you guys are, having a scholarly discussion on such a mundane and seemingly insignificant part of a fictional setting, and it's still interesting. The Realms truly are alive, in that we can have threads like this. |
Edited by - Eladrinstar on 09 Feb 2012 05:54:07 |
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Topic |
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Elephants (And lions and tigers and bears, oh my!)
