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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 03:47:28
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At what point did Katashaka seperate from the Chultan peninsula? Some canon mentions appear to lean toward the Sundering, but the problem is that lore before that time treats the Chult as a peninsula shortly post-Tearfall, not as a part of a larger landmass. So, which is it, around 31,500 DR or around 17,xxx DR?
When is the first halfling sighted in Luiren? At what point can we assume that they have a civilisation there?
In the Al-Quadim setting, the first Grand Caliph is said to have taken power '600 years ago'. At what date in Dalereckoning is the Al-Quadim setting 'current affairs' stuff assumed to take place?
If it is supposed to be in the 14th century DR, we have a problem with dates. The Scouring of the Utter East is done at the behest of the Grand Caliph in 657 DR, which means that there was a Grand Caliph seven centuries before the publication of the first Forgotten Realms product. That means that the Al-Quadim setting can hardly be set in the modern day Realms when they were published.
Another, smaller, problem is that the Grand Caliph mentioned in the Grand Hiistory of the Realms has a female name*. The Al-Quadim setting clearly states that no female has become Grand Caliph at the time of writing.
The last Ice Age on Toril ended at -37,000 DR. When did it begin? Did it last for thousands of years, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands?
*She is 'bint' Sarash, meaning 'daughter of' Sarash. Before anyone asks, the Al-Quadim setting is consistent in assigning 'bint' onlly to female characters (the male equivalent is 'ibn').
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Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 12 Feb 2012 03:56:48
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 10:03:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
At what point did Katashaka seperate from the Chultan peninsula? Some canon mentions appear to lean toward the Sundering, but the problem is that lore before that time treats the Chult as a peninsula shortly post-Tearfall, not as a part of a larger landmass. So, which is it, around 31,500 DR or around 17,xxx DR?
Based on the maps included in the last PDF version of Grand History of the Realms, the separation would have taken place around the time of the Sundering (c. -24500 DR). On the map dated -25500, Kataskha is still attached; on the map dated -23000 DR, it no longer is.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
When is the first halfling sighted in Luiren? At what point can we assume that they have a civilisation there?
In an incredible coincidence, right before the first pocket was picked in Luiren. The halflings deny any correlation between the two events. .
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
In the Al-Quadim setting, the first Grand Caliph is said to have taken power '600 years ago'. At what date in Dalereckoning is the Al-Quadim setting 'current affairs' stuff assumed to take place?
If it is supposed to be in the 14th century DR, we have a problem with dates. The Scouring of the Utter East is done at the behest of the Grand Caliph in 657 DR, which means that there was a Grand Caliph seven centuries before the publication of the first Forgotten Realms product. That means that the Al-Quadim setting can hardly be set in the modern day Realms when they were published.
Another, smaller, problem is that the Grand Caliph mentioned in the Grand History of the Realms has a female name*. The Al-Quadim setting clearly states that no female has become Grand Caliph at the time of writing.
Inserting Al-Qadim in the timeline has always been a bit of a problem, as no official timeline similar to the Realms timeline was ever established. There's no official answer, so I guess there is nothing else to do but to put it down to inconsistencies between the various sources (and Al-Qadim is treated only very peripherally in GHotR; it gets less page time than, say, Kara-Tur, or even Maztica).
In my own, "more complete" version of the GHotR, I included a fan-created timeline. For reasons specific to my campaigns, I set Zakhara "present day" (boxed set and supplements) at around 1225 DR.
Checking the MCGHotR, I marked the entry you refer to as "problematic", and not applicable in my campaign. As for the inconsistencies, here's a couple of suggestions to address those:
1) "Six hundred years" is either correct (in which case "Zakhara Present Time" is set in the past), or it is not, in which case "six hundred years" might be a local expression for "a long, long time ago". That may fit with the rather vague legends and lore regarding the Loregiver.
2) A Grand Caliph before there was a Grand Caliph. A movie quote could provide a solution to that (from The 13th Warrior):
Ahmed Ibn Fahdlan: What do you suppose the potentate of this camp calls himself?
Melchisidek: Oh, emperor, at the very least.
So, Grand Caliph Arash bint Sanjar might have been a local ruler, who just fancied a grand-sounding title, before the first modern Grand Caliph came along, and decided that one Grand Caliph was more than enough.
3) As for the male/female issue - although "bint" is indeed "daughter of", Arash is traditionally a male name (and a Persian one, rather than an Arab one). I'd either write that one off as a mistake, and just call the old boy "ibn Sanjar". Actually, come to think of it, it's the kind of thing that might slip by an editor - spell check (for English) might very well decide that "Ibn" should be "Bint". OR, you can decice that there was a woman Grand Caliph.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The last Ice Age on Toril ended at -37,000 DR. When did it begin? Did it last for thousands of years, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands?
There was an earlier thread on the subject (Abeir-Toril Before the Days of Thunder, where there seems to be consensus that there is no canon answer, and the question was put to Ed Greenwood (p. 9 of the 2012 "Ask Ed" Thread). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 15:31:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
When is the first halfling sighted in Luiren? At what point can we assume that they have a civilisation there?
In an incredible coincidence, right before the first pocket was picked in Luiren. The halflings deny any correlation between the two events..
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 16:06:20
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Chult: it was still a peninsula back then - it was just a MUCH bigger one at that time (refer to the map on pg.6 of the GHotR).
The hin that were 'brought from elsewhere' into Calimshan some 9000 years ago spread-out after the fall of the genie kingdoms in that region, and the first nation of halflings (the first time sages took note of them) would be when they settled Luiren. It is entirely reconcilable.
Assumption:
Their were two ages of Zakhara - the 'Age of legends' (before fate scattered her people to the four winds), and the 'modern age', which is detailed in the Al-Qadim products. When used as a stand-alone setting, Al-Qadim does not need the extended timeline, and was therefor presented with the limited one (most folks who used Zakhara ran Arabian Adventures campaigns, not FR ones). When we Realms fans attach Zakhara to Toril, we have to think well-outside of that limited information. During the Age of Legends, their were Caliphs (some female) and styles of clothes that were repeated much later - history tends to repeat itself, especially when an entire sub-continent has to re-start civilization from scratch.
The GHotR should be tweaked for 5e (I would LOVE to help Brian and George with this, even in an unofficial capacity), to blend the seems together better. besides Al-Qadim, there are some continuity glitches with Kara-Tur as well, and 5e could give us a chance to fix all of that (and maybe give us a bit more about those other settings as well - Zakhara is especially 'bare', and maybe some of Maztica's history).
Another problem:
quote:
From The grand History of the Realms
-31500 DR
Under the wise leadership of Zhoukoudien, batrachi power reaches its zenith. The High One's reign ends when he is slain in battle by the titan thane Omo.
-30000 DR
The giant god Annam All-Father marries Othea, a lesser demigoddess of Toril. Their union produces eight terrestrial children. Ostoria, the Colossal Kingdom, is founded by Annam in honor of his sons.
This is a simple fix - we already have canonically two different types of titans, thanks to Planescape lore. Omo was a 'Greater Titan', or in 4e parlance, a primordial (as was Annam - they may have been brothers). Given 4e lore, I would also consider Othea an Archfey (who's essence was anchored to a mountain - all terrestrial fey need to be anchored, and the size of their 'mooring' depends upon their level of power.)
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2012 16:08:48 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 19:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
Based on the maps included in the last PDF version of Grand History of the Realms, the separation would have taken place around the time of the Sundering (c. -24500 DR). On the map dated -25500, Kataskha is still attached; on the map dated -23000 DR, it no longer is.
Wait, there are more maps for the GHotR than made it into the printed product?!? Where can I find this amazing resource?
Incidentally, the Sundering took place in -17,600 DR, not -24,500 DR. I would have to see these maps and the sources they are based on, because it seems unecessary to have a third disaster that rearranged the lands when we already have to canon ones that would do as an explanation. Unless, of course, there is canon support for Katashaka being torn apart in something unlrelated to either.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
In my own, "more complete" version of the GHotR, I included a fan-created timeline. For reasons specific to my campaigns, I set Zakhara "present day" (boxed set and supplements) at around 1225 DR.
Incidentally, this fits everything I've read in the Al-Quadim campaign setting, in many ways better than having the 'present day' be 1357 DR or thereabouts. The state of sailing technology in Faerun is high and it has been improving rather rapidly since the 600s DR. The earlier the date is, the less problematic the comparative isolation of Zakhara from the North (actually the south of Faerun) becomes.
Also, the ruined empires of Zakhara are much younger than ruined empires in Faerun or Kara-Tur. The older we can make them, the better the chance that they'll fit naturally into an intergrated history.
Also, if the 'present day' of Zakhara is around the middle of the 13th century for Faerun, the inconsistency of the Grand Caliph of the Enlightened Throne sending a fleet against the Utter East in 657 DR is removed. In that case, this could easily have been the first, second or third Grand Caliph, with no inconsistency except the female 'bint'.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
1) "Six hundred years" is either correct (in which case "Zakhara Present Time" is set in the past), or it is not, in which case "six hundred years" might be a local expression for "a long, long time ago". That may fit with the rather vague legends and lore regarding the Loregiver.
While many dates in Zakhara are imprecise, imprecision is usually expressed with a term like 'hundreds', 'thousands' or 'an elven grandfathers' grandfather'. 'Six hundred years' is specific.
I suppose it could mean anything less than seven hundred and more than five hundred, but if it was a vague period of time, I think it would say 'millenia' or 'many centuries'. I'd assume that Zakhara counts time from this event and say that 600 years is exact or as near as. After all, they know all eighteen Great Caliphs and the years of their reigns, even if that information is not in the book. That is information that learned Zakharans presumably have.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
2) A Grand Caliph before there was a Grand Caliph. A movie quote could provide a solution to that (from The 13th Warrior):
Ahmed Ibn Fahdlan: What do you suppose the potentate of this camp calls himself?
Melchisidek: Oh, emperor, at the very least.
So, Grand Caliph Arash bint Sanjar might have been a local ruler, who just fancied a grand-sounding title, before the first modern Grand Caliph came along, and decided that one Grand Caliph was more than enough.
That would be nice, but unfortunately, the Grand Caliph who scoured the Utter East specifically sat on the Enlightened Throne of Zakhara. It was clearly meant to occur in the post-Loregiver era.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
3) As for the male/female issue - although "bint" is indeed "daughter of", Arash is traditionally a male name (and a Persian one, rather than an Arab one). I'd either write that one off as a mistake, and just call the old boy "ibn Sanjar". Actually, come to think of it, it's the kind of thing that might slip by an editor - spell check (for English) might very well decide that "Ibn" should be "Bint". OR, you can decice that there was a woman Grand Caliph.
I'm leaning toward either making 'bint' a simple misprint for 'ibn' or, alternatively, saying that this occured in the reign of one of the female regents for a young son, with her ruling in his name, using the first name of her son, combined with her own patronymic, on proclamations.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
There was an earlier thread on the subject (Abeir-Toril Before the Days of Thunder, where there seems to be consensus that there is no canon answer, and the question was put to Ed Greenwood (p. 9 of the 2012 "Ask Ed" Thread).
Any clues? I mean, can we assume that the glaciers covered most of Faerun for hundreds of thousands of years or was it a shorter glacial period? |
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Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 20:08:11
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The Sundering technically took place at two separate points in time, but are inter-related.
There was 'THE Sundering'¹, which took place "at the beginning of time" (poetically speaking). This event was catastrophic and changed the world. At a much later date, the elven High Mages cast their ritual, which tapped-into the earlier event, and shaped it in such a way so that their future was more secure (and in so doing, probably doomed Tintageer and their own past - the universe demands balance).
During periods of 'cosmic upheaval', the veil between the worlds is weakest (canonically demonstrated by both the ToT and the Spellplague), and that is how the Elves were able to latch onto a bit of their own past (Tintageer) and shift it to Toril, in the distant past, so that it would already be there, waiting for them, when the ritual was cast. In other words, they used a point in time when "reality was in flux" to create their own reality - thats how Fey/High Elven magic works. Its 'super powerful' because it finds a point in the timeline which would allow for whatever they are doing to have come to pass (which requires a lot less energy then simply forcing their will upon the current reality).
You want a city to disappear? Fine - go back and have the guy who founded it trip over a rock and die, before he ever founded it. That is my own theory on how High Magic works. The downside of that sort of magic is that it is unpredictable, and you can windup with something much worse (something that has happened to the Elves many times).
Extra maps - you would have to contact Brian R. James about that.
Zakharan history - as I have stated, the history of that setting was primarily designed as a stand-alone product, and if you want to use Zakhara in FR, then you MUST expand on the timeline given (so inconsistencies will arise, but thats to be expected). Assume canon Al-Qadim history is written in-game, so it is from the viewpoint of Zakharans, and may be highly inaccurate (Kara-Tur history is canonically presented this way - the ancient emperors had a lot of stuff that made Shou-Lung 'look bad' erased and re-written).
Strangely enough, that one entry in the GH was inspired by our Utter East thread, and yet didn't follow any of our lore for the region (we had invasions from the north, not the south). Not sure where Brian was trying to go with that.
And yes, I have had a LOT of trouble placing the Ruined Kingdoms within a framework of FR history. I had to go with two 'fall of Tempat Larang's to fix things, but I never cared for that. I am thinking now that those two had little or nothing to do with Tempat Larang, and may have been associated with Sahu² (the Isle of the Necromancer Kings) - I will have to check other timelines to see if that is workable.
Also, those kingdoms may have fallen a thousand years ago, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were around for centuries, perhaps millenia, before then (and be known by different names, even).
And maybe Zakharans aren't all that concerned with the accurate passage of time, and 'a thousand years ago' could simply mean 'in ancient times' to them. Their sages might not have nearly the same care about archaeology or history that we do, and just assign time-periods to everything arbitrarily (its not like they have carbon-14 dating). It could just a matter of badly kept records.
¹THE Sundering was THE Tearfall (which may have actually been several 'tear falls', spread across Toril). It was the first such cataclysm, and may have also been part of The War of Light & Darkness.
²EDIT: Just looked into it - it is canon that the Necromancer Kings came from the Ruined Kingdoms. I suppose it would be best to simply push them further back on the timeline.
The people of Nog & Kadar were probably unrelated to the Mar - just different branches of the Ang racial proto-group. I had to shift Tempat Larang's history further back as well (because of the history of K-T and the Hordlands - it doesn't line-up at all), so one could assume that all of these kingdoms were contemporaries.
Interestingly, if you read Ronin Challenge, Shou-Lung once controlled the Segara sea with a navy of 1000 vessels!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2012 02:51:25 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 04:46:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Sundering technically took place at two separate points in time, but are inter-related.
There was 'THE Sundering'*, which took place "at the beginning of time" (poetically speaking).
Well, we know that it occurs before -24,000 DR, because at that time, the couatls arrive at the Chultan peninsual, which doesn't exist pre-Sundering.
We also know that it happens post--31,500, because at that time, the Days of Thunder map on p. 6 of GHotR clearly shows a pre-Sundering world.
Perhaps it would be best to assume a series of changes that took place from the Tearfall to -24,000 DR, caused by the -17,600 DR high magic 'reaching through the mists of time' in various ineffable ways.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This event was catastrophic and changed the world. At a much later date, the elven High Mages cast their ritual, which tapped-into the earlier event, and shaped it in such a way so that their future was more secure (and in so doing, probably doomed Tintageer and their own past - the universe demands balance).
Very good.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Zakharan history - as I have stated, the history of that setting was primarily designed as a stand-alone product, and if you want to use Zakhara in FR, then you MUST expand on the timeline given (so inconsistencies will arise, but thats to be expected). Assume canon Al-Qadim history is written in-game, so it is from the viewpoint of Zakharans, and may be highly inaccurate (Kara-Tur history is canonically presented this way - the ancient emperors had a lot of stuff that made Shou-Lung 'look bad' erased and re-written).
Just so. I have no troubles with most of the 'dating' in the book, which is deliberate left vague enough to enable fiddling. I'll assign whatever dates in my campaign that best fits the evidence from the surrounding areas.
On the other hand, the Ascension of the Grand Caliph to the Enlightened Throne is not something that is vague in Zakharan lore. The impression that the text gives is that there have been eighteen reigns of Grand Caliphs and that the dates for these are well known (even if the book did not present them). They know the day of the year when he took power. They also know what year it was.
And while 'a thousand years ago' is a perfectly plausible way to say 'a long time ago', the odd precision of saying 'five hundred years ago'* suggests that this is fairly exact. After all, they could have used the less precise 'five centuries' or 'half a millenia'/'millenia' if it was something that was not exactly dated.
The First Caliph found the scrolls of the Loregiver slightly less than six centuries before the current era in the Al-Quadim setting. He was acknowledged as Grand Caliph after an unspecified time of travel, preaching and trials, which was certainly a number of years. He died controling an allegiance of a few cities, but far from all Zakhara.
The Second Grand Caliph, Nasir al-Nasir, appears to have taken power pretty much exactly 500 years ago, at which time work on the Palace of the Enlightened Throne commenced.
If I have to, I can assume something strange like a reign of a Grand Caliph excised from all histories or something, but I'd prefer assuming that the Enlightened inhabitants of Zakhara are correct about the date for the event from which they presumably count their years.
*My mistake, I thought it was six hundred, but then I looked it up. It is indeed five hundred years since 'the Time of the Loregiver' and there are any number of independent verifications for it, with the various cities including the ascension of the First Caliph and the Time of the Loregiver as relevant events in their own histories. Changing it would be a bad thing indeed.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Strangely enough, that one entry in the GH was inspired by our Utter East thread, and yet didn't follow any of our lore for the region (we had invasions from the north, not the south). Not sure where Brian was trying to go with that.
It makes plenty of sense that the Zakharans would be concerned with events in the Utter East. As soon as Zakharans develop sailing ships, the distance between the two is less than that between the Moonshaes and Waterdeep. So it's cool that there's a link between Zakhara and the Utter East. And the Scouring of the Utter East is pretty cool story, to boot.
I just wish it was easier to accomodate within other canon lore. Seems to me there wasn't an Enlightened Throne of Zakhara at the time, no matter how you turn things, and even if there had been, the lands closest to the Utter East weren't Enlightened until later, so one of the first Grand Caliphs would find it very difficult to intervene (from Huzuz, he has to sail around the whole sub-continent first, which is a major challenge).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And yes, I have had a LOT of trouble placing the Ruined Kingdoms within a framework of FR history. I had to go with two 'fall of Tempat Larang's to fix things, but I never cared for that. I am thinking now that those two had little or nothing to do with Tempat Larang, and may have been associated with Sahu* (the Isle of the Necromancer Kings) - I will have to check other timelines to see if that is workable.
Also, those kingdoms may have fallen a thousand years ago, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were around for centuries, perhaps millenia, before then (and be known by different names, even).
And maybe Zakharans aren't all that concerned with the accurate passage of time, and 'a thousand years ago' could simply mean 'in ancient times' to them. Their sages might not have nearly the same care about archaeology or history that we do, and just assign time-periods to everything arbitrarily (its not like they have carbon-14 dating). It could just a matter of badly kept records.
*EDIT: Just looked into it - it is canon that the Necromancer Kings came from the Ruined Kingdoms. I suppose it would be best to simply push them further back on the timeline.
The people of Nog & Kadar were probably unrelated to the Mar - just different branches of the Ang racial proto-group. I had to shift Tempat Larang's history further back as well (because of the history of K-T and the Hordlands - it doesn't line-up at all), so one could assume that all of these kingdoms were contemporaries.
Interestingly, if you read Ronin Challenge, Shou-Lung once controlled the Segara sea with a navy of 1000 vessels!
The Ruined Kingdoms definitely are pretty loose on the 'thousands of years' front. No problem moving that around, as even the canon Al-Quadim materials avoid stating anything about those with certainty.
The Segara sea and the corsair lords there, a long, long time ago, are interesting. I'd be willing to consider the possibility of these corsair lords being from the Sempadan or the eastern shore of Zakhara. Where else could all these people, enough to crew a thousand ships, have come?
Or, if they were not from there, they would certainly have travelled there.
The fact that they were corsair lords, of course, and the relative ease of their defeat (for people rich and powerful enough to build and crew 1,000 ships), further suggests that the civilisation from which they came had suffered some setback. Or that it had fallen and they were the survirors?
And the name of the ocean 'Segera'? How does that fit with the forgotten and forbidden goddess Ragarra/Raggara, served by crockodile-headed 'Segarrans'? There's even a Seggaran Swamp in the Sempadan, just around where the population that supported the corsairs might have lived!
In any event, these corsairs must certainly fit somehow into the spread of an 'Indian-esque' culture all the way from the Utter East* east to the Kuong Empire and south to the extreme tip of the Kara-Turan continent.
The fact that some (or perhaps all) of the valleys in the Shao mountains have elements of 'Indian-esques' gives me further hope that a plausible explanation may be advanced. From there, you can walk (or sail) to the Sempadan and from there, it is easy enough to get to the Utter East. Or vice versa.
I'm thinking that the 'Lords of Creation' might have spread either way, really. Or that the final product is a synthesis of several originally distinct religious systems, which is even more likely.
I hope to tie it somehow into Zakhara and the lost empires there (even if only noting if either was aware of the other at any point), as well as connecting it to the events of the Faerunian mainland and the Hordelands. Were these civilisations pre- or post-Imaskari?**
At first glance, Ayfal looks like a place that really ought to have an 'Indian-esque' connection and the same applies to pretty much the whole eastern coast of Zakhara.
*Technically, there are elements as far north as Solon and as far west as Estagund.
**Granted, 'Indian-esque' covers a lot of ground, but I'll look at the ethnic groups (of which India has several, not all that inter-related), the languages, the cultures and, most particularly, the religions.
***I quite fancy the idea of there being already Bronze Age societies in a lot of these areas when the fall of Imaskar starts the ball rolling with a lot of shaking up stuff in a southward direction, just as it did to every other direction. |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 13:10:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Another, smaller, problem is that the Grand Caliph mentioned in the Grand Hiistory of the Realms has a female name*. The Al-Quadim setting clearly states that no female has become Grand Caliph at the time of writing.
[...]
*She is 'bint' Sarash, meaning 'daughter of' Sarash. Before anyone asks, the Al-Quadim setting is consistent in assigning 'bint' onlly to female characters (the male equivalent is 'ibn').
Perhaps she was legally declared male, and just kept that 'daughter of' in the name because she could always obliterate anyone who argued?
Or, for that matter, was the last ruler's daughter, magically transformed into a male when he lacked a son or his actual son died suddenly, and kept hir name in memory of hir birth? |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 15:26:44
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There was female emperor in K-T as well, which is also illegal there. She simply dressed as a man and took a man's name.
I would say that there was an earlier period of history that Zakharan historians are ordered to 'erase' (which is precisely what they do in Shou-Lung). It could be there was a time when the rulership was matriarchal, and after a revolution, the new caliph's (and religous sects) did not want it widely known that females once held such power (considering it is an Arabianesque setting).
In fact, if we (or WotC if they felt like correcting this) were smart, I would say that the 'old republic' fell due to the Bloodforge Wars in the Utter East - they should use the continuity mistake to correct itself. Perhaps the female caliphs made some serious errors in judgement. Or, conversely, this could have something to do with all the Dgen (genies... I hate using that term for them - makes them sound silly). Maybe that is when the Noble dgen ruled over Zakhara, and they may have used magic to alter peoples memories, or Fate herself did so (divine intervention), or they could have just wanted it wiped from the history books, like I said above. its a pretty easy fix. I'd personally use the GHotR entry to fix itself - build upon that to explain why she (that Caliph) is 'forgotten'.
And here is a map clearly showing the Segara Sea. Its canon, from the FRIA. If you are going to do this kind of research, you really need to get a hold of that resource. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 16:12:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
Perhaps she was legally declared male, and just kept that 'daughter of' in the name because she could always obliterate anyone who argued?
Or, for that matter, was the last ruler's daughter, magically transformed into a male when he lacked a son or his actual son died suddenly, and kept hir name in memory of hir birth?
Theoretically possible.
That just leaves the question of how he* managed to rule the Enlightened Throne of Zakhara a full century before is was established, or, indeed, before anyone in Zakhara was Enlightened.**
*Despite the female name, the GHotR uses the male pronoun for the Grand Caliph in question.
**Added to which that the first century of the Grand Caliphate is covered somewhat in canon sources and before the second century of its existence, it wouldn't have had the power for an invasion of the scale described, certainly not to the northwest (that area of Zakhara was not among the first Enlightened). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 19:17:13
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Which is why I don't think having two different explantions is the best way to proceed - better to have one inconsistency explain-away the other.
That was another, 'forgotten' part of their history - a different dynasty that the later one wiped from the records. I would also attached that to the Bloodforge Wars, which Brian made canon (it was originally from the Blood & Magic video game). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2012 19:20:14 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 07:17:23
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I'm leaning toward a female Caliph in power more than a century before the rise of the First Grand Caliph, ruling somewhere else than modern Huzuz, most likely fairly close to the Utter East.
Qadib, perhaps? Or Muluk? Or a naval-superstate centered in Hawa and encompassing much of the northern coast?
I like the last. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
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Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 21:30:42
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I really like the idea of a naval state around the northern islands - definitely go with that. 
It gels well with some of our musings in the old Utter East thread as well (that there was a 'water kingdom' somewhere off the coast). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 15:11:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I really like the idea of a naval state around the northern islands - definitely go with that.
I'll propose it falling as a consequence of the incredible expense and risk of the Scouring of the Utter East, with the survivors becoming local lords who eventually degenerated into local pirate lords, with the collapse of industry and trade (because of all the other local lords claiming the right to profits preying on any unarmed merchants trying to ply their trade).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It gels well with some of our musings in the old Utter East thread as well (that there was a 'water kingdom' somewhere off the coast).
I will, obviously, give greater weight to any canon up to the GHotR* than unpublished writings and if an alternate explanation better ties the canon together, I will go with that. On the other hand, if there is something important that resulted from your musings in that thread, perhaps you could summarise it for me?
What, in your mind, are the absolutely vital elements that the Utter East must include (in addition to what canon exists on it) for you to be satisfied with any proposed history of it? What must I take care not to do? And what absolutely must I include?
*And anything later, if I am aware of it. Hopefully, however, the approach taken to Toril's early history by 4e and 5e will, if it never returns to the labour-of-love, considering-all-prior-canon, guided-by-one-'traffic-cop' precision of Brian R. James GHotR, at least refrain from authorative and specific statements unfounded in prior lore and that prove impossible to reconcile with a range of prefered explanations. At least the 4e FRCG appears to contain no history that is inconsistent with the GHotR, it merely adds new myths and legends (with evident truth to some of them) to the earliest parts. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 02:11:38
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In The Horde setting, there are several events listed which have profound impact on Kara-Tur and that region of Faerun known as the Old Empires. Some of them, while presented in chronological order there, have not been dated in canon, as far as I can find.
I thought I'd see how near we could get to a canon date for them.
Li dynasty of [Shou Lung]* conquers Khazari: Between -900 DR and -670 DR (the rule of the Li). Including Khazari at this time among the 'western provinces of Shou Lung' would give us a date of -868 DR, at which time these were united under the Li emperor. Seems fairly plausible, with Li military might then shifting to a southern strategy, moving their borders ever further south over the next centuries.
Rise of the Kalmyks: According to the Horde setting, this was during the Li dynasty. The first battles between the Shou and the Kalmyks must then have been before -670 DR. It is, however, far from necessary that the Kalmyks be anything resembling a unified people at that time. They were probably a term for a diverse people under hundreds of rulers. And it is clear that at this time, at least, they did not cross the Dragonwall. I favour having them appear on the scene during the reign of the last emperor of the Li dynasty, which explains the lack of vigorous Shou Lung response to their raids over the next centuries. So, tentatively around -700 DR.
Khazari revolt: With the weakening of Shou Lung power in the west, Khazari declared independence. Natural defences shielded them fairly well from the Kalmyk and the need to garrison all the Dragonwall as well as probable religious strife at home occupied the whole attention of the new Ho dynasty of Shou Lung. This has to have happened at some point after the rise of the Kalmyk, but before the Copper Demon of Tros. So, between -700 DR and -248 DR.
I favour -669 DR, with the declaration of the Organisation of Thought serving to effectively exile a great deal of people aside from the followers of the Way, including, I imagine, followers of religions that had sprung from the Anok-Imaskar era**. These would then have influenced Khazari and induced them to rebel.
The founding of Guge: I date this to the Organisation of Thought in -669 DR, with religious dissidents from Shou Lung establishing their theocratic state on the ruins of Anok-Imaskar's province of Katakoro.
Establishment of a Kalmyk Empire: Clearly a much later development than the emergence of these peoples and their initial war with the Li dynasty (and probably, the rest of the inhabitants of the steppes). I imagine that this empire was gradually established, most probably in a similar manner as Yamun Khahan established his among the Taangan later. One warlord defeated rival tribes one by one and added their defeated peoples to his horde. In light of the existence of the Iron Bow and Hammer of Gesen, which predate the Suren, it seems almost inevitable to conclude, at least provisionally, that this Kalmyk cultural hero was Gesen Khan.
Before being able to turn his horde against the civilised lands, I imagine that Gesen Khan 'rode to the West' or died. His successors would have battled for prominence, establishing the earliest seeds of the Suren/North Kalmyk divide, but eventually come to some sort of arrangment, with one or more of them wielding at least theoretical power over the rest as Khahan***. This would have been Hun-kho, the great war chief of the 'Kalmyr', I imagine, whose tomb lies somewhere on the steppes.
Of course, the name 'Kalmyk' would, like the Tuigan, have properly refered to a single tribe, in this case the one who arose in the Hagga Shan. Gesen Khan would have united a lot of the Taangan under the banner of the Kalmyk, but by the time of his successor, some of the Taangan clearly refered to the horde as a whole or some part of it as 'Kalmyr'.
Their empire clearly stretched over all the steppes, more or less from whatever area in the west not claimed by Raumathar, bounded in the south by the Mountains of Copper, Khopet Dag and Teyla Shan. Whether it stretched into Khazari and/or Ra-Khati at some point is unknown. By the same token, the Dragonwall ought to have prevented them from conquering within modern Shou Lung, but when the Copper Tyrant/Demon of Tros took their eastern provinces, he terrorised the western provinces of Shou Lung, as far east as Min Low/Minlow, deep inside Mai Yuan. This implies that either the Kalmyks held most of Main Yuan or that the Copper Demon conquered it independently. Given that the Dragonwall was not breached (that would have been noted), I favour having the Kalmyks having conquered Khazari at some point, moving through it to raid and conquer areas in Mai Yuan.
What about timing, here? Well, I'd say that Gesen Khan arose well after the Kalmyks spread over the steppes. Long enough so that they felt that they had always been the most powerful group there, at least, with the other Taangan being less well armed and less organised. Gesen Khan might have lived between ca -400 and ca -300 DR.
The Taangan/Kalmyk/proto-Suren would not have conquered Khazari until after his day, I think. I suppose that his successors conquered Khazari and parts of the Mai Yuan, with them fracturing into rival bands of warriors and warlords and raiding Shou Lung during the Black Cycle of Years. Hence, I suspect that Khazari was conquered shortly before that time, maybe in -280 DR. If and when the Kalmyks took Khazari, Semphar becomes extremely difficult to hold against a cavalry army, with only stout fortifications well supplied having a chance.
I get the feeling that since coming to his throne, the new God-King Horus-Re was extremely focused on 'Mulhorand proper' and that is why the First Empire is said to have ended with this event. I imagine that raiding bands of surviving orcs were a great problem for hundreds for years, with all military energy going into hunting them. Then, with the rise of Narfell and Raumathar, fortifying against a potential attack from the north would have been the rule.
Semphar was probably more or less on its own, under a Viceroy with some forces, but little ability to be resupplied. Murghom would have been an armed camp to the north-west, a mining frontier to the north and more or less ignored in the south.
So I imagine that Semphar fell to those who would become the Suren. I don't know about Solon (hard to do sieges as a nomadic horse warrior), but assuredly a lot of its lands became Suren. I would place the conquest of Semphar at -278 DR or so, with one faction of proto-Suren settling its rich lands then and remaining until the terrible time of the Copper Tyrant, who would rule much of modern Semphar, the uplands (and possibly the city and its southern lands) of Solon, Khazari and far into Mai Yuan of Shou Lung. The chances of the Copper Tyrant being controlled/influenced/manipulated by Joon Tsao Choo/Tan Chin/Ambuchar Devayam rise.
The Kingdom of Guge existed in this era, but it was probably not conquered by the Copper Tyrant. Whether Ra-Khati was is unknown, but not unlikely.
Submission of the Northern Kalmyk: These become the more 'civilised' tribes of the Plains of Horses and probably also swell the numbers of the Mai Yuan and Chukei peoples in Shou Lung. This took place not long after the establishment of the Kao dynasty, most likely during the reign of Wo Mai, but likely not until the more pressing threats are dealt with. I would place this ca -220 DR.
Occupation of Khazari, Ra-Khati, Solon and Semphar by the Shou Lung under the Kao dynasty: Despite the end of the threat of the Copper Tyrant, this prodigious feat of arms in forbidden terrain cannot have been undertaken lightly. I imagine that the territories formerly ruled by the Copper Tyrants, at least those in relatively open terrain, quickly became Suren again. At this time, there would most likely have been several leaders of the Suren, with one being the lord of Semphar, one the lord of the Solon lands, one the lord of Khazari and several lords of the steppes between the Dragonwall, the Teyla Shan/Shalhoond/Khopat Dag and the Kora Shan.
I would place the start of this invasion in the next campaigning season after having made peace with the northern Kalmyks. Khazari might have fallen in the first invasion, but Ra-Khati, Solon and Semphar most assuredly did not. In addition, the Kingdom of Guge was at that time still powerful.
I imagine that, deservedly wary of the Suren in open terrain and concerned over leaving a dangerous enemy with access to their supply routes through Khazari, the Kao spent several years subduing fierce mountain tribes in Khazari and Ra-Khati and then invaded the Kingdom of Guge. Final victory over all of the above and total control of the Katakoro Shan, enough to use the roads there as the southern supply route to supplement the central through Khazari and the northern one through the Bitter Well caravan route, would have come in ca -215 DR.
Investing Solon and the Jorhat citadel (neither of which is likely to have been easy to take, no matter who held them) to neutralise their threat to the supply routes, the Kao would have focused all the rest of their armies on Semphar, taking it in a single year, two at the most. In ca -213 DR, Kao armies would have slowly reduced any Suren settlements on the steppes south of the Kora Shan, simply by the expedient of moving heavily fortified camps over the steppes a couple of miles per day, denying the nomads the opportunity of an open field battle and making it impossible for them to truly rule anything there permanently.
Having no stomach for this kind of warfare, the Suren would have turned toward the Raumathari dominions. Even with their powerful magic and veteran armies, the Raumathari still offered battle when challenged and their shock cavalry armies, while formidable, could be defeated by the more maneuverable nomads.
By ca -200 DR, the Suren would have raided into the Great Amber Steppes, eventually reaching all the way to the Sunrise Mountains, and later also raided into the area around the Bay of Raumar, but taking care to give Winterkeep a wide berth. They'd avoid the larger, more powerful and magically potent Raumathari armies, but not hesitate to raid smaller groups of Raumathari or any independent Raumviri encountered. This would persist until the final collapse of the Raumathari and Narfell empires (-150 DR), at which point the Suren would swarm north and west all over the lands that had belonged to them, raiding, stealing, killing and looting.
Western limit of the Suren: Something stopped the Suren before they overran the rest of Narfell or fell on other areas of Faerun and convinced them to seek easier prey in the east again. The most plausible scenario is that it was Eltab, ruling the Lakelands of Shem. Fearing a repeat of the horros of the Copper Tyrant, the Suren deliberately withdrew east of the Icerim Mountains and the Sunrise Mountains. This would have been around -148 DR.
Second Suren Empire: For a 'few decades', things were quiet. I imagine that as before, a local warlord started to consolidate his power among the various tribes that together made up the Suren. The leader who was in power at the start of the next war is known to us only as Yeke-Noyan (Great Chief), , which implies that there was a taboo surrounding his actual name after his death. This is common for greatly revered people as well as greatly feared ones, so which, if not both, he was, is unclear. I imagine that as the Horde says things were peaceful, he was a greatly beloved leader whose consolidation of power proceeding through more diplomacy and force of personality than actual massacres.
I'm inclined to think that 'a few decades' actually lasted quite some time. Assuming that the first few decades after abandoning their western conquests and coming to rule the Great Amber Steppes and the Endless Wastes were anything but peaceful, but were a time of constant warfare between survivors of the great empires, Eltab's realm, rampaging hordes of demons and elementals and the Suren themselves.
I think that these few decades of peace don't start counting until around the time of the Standing Stone. At that time, the great hero known as the Yeke-Noyan today might have come to manhood and over the next ca 50-60 years of his life, he would have made the steppes safe for his people, defeated countless demons and other horrors and united the tribes in preparation for seizing former Suren lands.
Of course, there could have been two rulers, the one who consolidated power and then a sucessor who led the next war. In light of the aformentioned name taboo, I am inclined to believe that the man who consolidated power and who then led the tribes against the Kao was the same, however.
Suren-Kao War: The great war of the Suren and the Kao clearly corresponds to the Shou Lung event of the invasion of the horse barbarians. The Suren are routed in 80 DR by the Shou Lung under the Kao, but that is after a period of initial Suren conquests and enough time for their empire to have fragmented again.
The Suren took Khazari and Ra-Khati, but proved unable to take lands further to the south, suggesting that someone powerful held Solon and/or Semphar. Semphar, at that time, declared independence, either under a local ruler or a rebellious Kao governor. I imagine that this takes place after a period of free-wheeling warfare on the steppes to the north drives the field armies of the Kao behind the Dragonwall, but not too long after it, because an astute commander would not want the Kao to have time to fortify Khazari.
After winning a series of battles in ca 60 DR on the steppes, the Suren Yeke-Noyan would have left a number of independent noyans/khans/something else along the whole length of the Dragonwall, in order to harry the Kao and force them to garrison it all. He'd have placed a third of his remaining forces under his most loyal and capable ally, to forestall attack from the Plains of Horses, whose tribesmen were now more likely to be allied with the Kao than them.
Taking the rest against Khazari himself, he must have taken it by storm, because otherwise he wouldn't have taken it at all (it can be resupplied from Kao heartlands). He'd also have stormed the what of the Katakoro was flat. Leaving levies of infantry and irregulars to subdue Ra-Khati, it is fairly plausible that the Yeke-Noyan was forced to turn away from his proposed conquest of Semphar and his desired invasion of Kao lands by something. This might have been a daring sortie by a large Kao army joined by their own loyal horse-nomads or it might have been something else. It took place, however, immediately after his victory in Khazari.
Of course, the venerable Yeke-Noyan might have died in the great battle for Khazari or even when taking Ra-Khati or the Katakoro tundra (while not glamorous, such guerilla fighting is very dangerous to leaders, especially with so much supernatural stuff going on there). This is exceedingly plausible, with the odds being that something supernatural slew him, perhaps a Gugan remnant, perhaps one from the Copper Tyrant, perhaps even an Anok-Imaskari or Imaskari thing.
At any rate, the commander of the northern army of the Suren probably declared himself Khahan or Yeke-Noyan or some equivalent, but the generals who had fought with the Yeke-Noyan himself did not accept him. The commanders of the smaller tribes, left to raid the Dragonwall, would have taken sides or even simply quietly ignored the dispute, moving to secure nice grazing lands for their own people.
Some of the generals who had won the victories in Khazari and Ra-Khati would have invaded Kao lands, winning victory after victory, but been unable to turn their battlefield success into rule of the lands, because of the internal disputes with the other Suren nobility. In the end, someone must have secured command over the Suren positioned in Khazari, but very many of them must have ridden away under their own tribal leaders and settled some area of the steppe rather than fight an imperial power under a divided high command.
Even so, the Suren, once they had settled the succession**** for the ones who still formed a single army, penetrated deeply into Kao lands. In the north and the Mai Yuan, they no doubt raided at will and it is telling that the battle where they are routed appears to have taken place on the banks of the Huengtse River. I imagine that settling the succession sufficiently would have taken a long time, judging from the Horde text, with the eventual winner perhaps being a son of the Yeke-Noyan who at the time of the first struggle was considered too young to lead (but who escaped being murdered and enjoyed some prestige for his personal prowess).
Perhaps this son earned his reputation with raids against the Kao over the time from 70 DR to 78 DR and had become acknowledged leader of a Suren horde at that time, leading them in earnest against the Kao heartlands. The Kao victory in the Battle of the Silver Grasslands would have been a triumph of their combined arms approach against purely cavalry and I expect that the heir of the Yeke-Noyan (and likely the First Khahan) perished there.
Kao reconquest of Khazari and Ra-Khati: The victory over the Suren field army must have been close, with the Kao not pushing their advantage immediately. It seems that Khazari and Ra-Khati were written off and the Suren, by now divided into a number of tribal people, many of whom would become ancestors to modern Taangan tribes, were allowed to retain them for some time.
When an emperor who favoured war emerged, I imagine that Khazari and Ra-Khati were retaken with consummate patience and organisation. I could easily see it taking a long time. I don't know when the two countries were reconquered, but I'd lean toward at least a generation passing, in order so that the depleted armies of Kao might be recovered and the population stop seething over the costs of wars.
So, maybe they weren't reconquered until 100 DR or even a 150 DR. The explanation for why they stopped could be found in a resurgent Mulhorand, of course, which would put the reconquest nearer 200 DR. Any thoughts?
*Actually ruled, at times, only a part of the modern lands that are called Shou Lung, but extended their rule further to the west. They were based on the Chukei Plateu and ruled 'from the mountais of Koryaz to the Rusj River and the mountains of Khazari'. While the eastern borders are clear enough and the inclusion of Khazari as well, the location of this river is unknown to me. Does it represent an older name of some of the rivers inside modern Shou Lung and therefore mark the southern terminus of the Li dynasty? Or does it represent their western borders and is it therefore probably an older steppe name for the Arundi River? I find the latter persuasive, as the nomads of the steppes are unlikely to care how far south the Li extended, only how far they penetrated into the steppes. Also, this fits geographically with controlling Khazari.
**The origin, I imagine, of the 'heretical' versions of the Way of Enlightenment in Ra-Khati, Khazari, Tabot, etc. Local religions encountered by the Anok-Imaskari that were then syncretisised with the Way of Enlightenment once Shou Lung influence reached that far.
***Or some equivalent title. Khahan means 'Khan of Khans', but the word 'Khan' is not attested in any Imaskari sources I have and in our world, probably has an origin near north-west China, meaning among those steppe peoples least affected by Imaskari ways and language. The source is likely to be among proto-Chigidi tribesmen (being derived from the same source as their 'qaghan'), who not doubt shared ethnic origins with the Taangan, but the emergence of Imaskar will have caused divergent linguistic evolution Whether the Kalmyks were a population of these people caught within the Imaskari sphere of rule or whether they were more related to the peoples who eventually formed the Nar (and possibly the Eraka) or even the Raumviri, will determine what titles they used. Their use of Khan is suggestive of the first origin mentioned, but it is interesting to contemplate the fact that both 'khan' and 'ataman' are attested in Djen culture around the time of Imaskar and that 'ataman' survived in the lands where Imaskar used to be. The Suren seem to have favoured 'Yeke-Noyan', meaning 'Great Chief' or 'Great Lord' and suggesting an origin in the central steppes, not being specifically of Imaskari root, but whether 'Khan' was a traditional Kalmyk word or a title adopted by Gesen from his conquests in the east, we don't know. Personally, given the real-world meaning of 'Kalmyk', I very much prefer them having been proto-Taangan people never conquered by the Imaskari. Their emergence over the steppes would then be connected to their adoption of the horse as a weapon of war, in their case (though not for less isolate people), more or less simultaneous to their adoption of iron weapons, composite bows, war saddles and, perhaps most importantly, stirrups. A lethal combination which led to their rapid propagation over the whole steppes.
****A loyalist must have won, taking some title distinct from 'Yeke-Noyan', making the very name of the great hero taboo and ensuring that the whole steppe would know 'The Yeke-Noyan'. I imagine that this is the time where the title 'Khahan' came into common use, being simply an adaptation of the already known 'Khan', signifying Khan of Khans. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 26 Feb 2012 02:46:57 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 08:40:01
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First Chessentan Empire
I've always thought that various hints in early canon about a Chessentan Empire appeared to cover more time and further away in history than Tchazzar's brief and glorious reign. Also, the very fact that Chessenta took so quickly to Imperial trappings suggests that they were inspired by history.
Finally, I found in Pirates of the Fallen Stars that it flat out states conclusively that 'almost 2,000 years' before 1359 DR, there existed a Chessentan Empire*. It lasted at least 200 years, probably more, since there is no hint given in the book that it was a new polity 2,000 years ago (indeed, that time is stated to be its 'height', not its early birth) and 200 years later, it is still hale and hearty, with no sign that it is near collapse.
This tells me that after Unther withdrew nearly all of its armies to fight the Wizards' War and then immediately faced the Orcgate War, the province of Chessenta must have declared its freedom. Jhaamdath apparently felt satisfied with driving out the Untheri from its own lands on the other side of the Akanal and the Akanapeaks and did not annex this rebellious province of Unther that had apparently once been within its sphere of influence.
The orcs would have taken a terrible toll, but apparently not enough to prevent Chessenta from having become, in ca -750 DR**, an Imperial power. No doubt it was a naval power, claiming some of the islands that would become the Pirate Isles (indeed, the Pirates of the Fallen Stars supports this interpretation).
After the fall of Jhaamdath, the Chessentan Empire would no doubt have attempted to carve out a province of the chaos there, but I imagine that they did not profit by their attempt, but instead lost a lot of men to bandits and religious fanatics seeing the end of the world in Jhaamdaths's fall (and possibly to archons and Tyr, as the Chessentans would be jackals trying to profit from the fall, not lawgivers trying to bring peace).
The resurgence of the Untheri Empire would have ended the First Chesesentan Empire, but I am not sure when. At any rate, it must have happened before Gilgeam sends a Great Lord to take over Westgate in -27 DR, because otherwise the army of Mulan could hardly have reached the city, whether sailing or walking, without the leave of Chessenta. So by this time, Chessenta is either allied with Unther, its vassal to some degree or has been conquered again.
I would like to link the exodus of Chessentans*** that led to the settling of the Wizards' Reach with an annexation by Unther. This took place in -100 DR to 250 DR, so I would say that Chessenta resisted at first in a titanic war of empires, but was forced to accept a series of forced settlements that little-by-little stripped it of autonomy. Before -27 DR, Chessenta was powerless to prevent Unther from sending a fleet of warships filled with 'mercenaries' to take over Westgate past its shores and before 250 DR, Chessenta was once more a province of Unther.
Yrkhetep and the Armies of the Great Khan
Another point, unrelated, that needs eluciating, at some point close to 1357 DR and for a period of at least three years, the coastal areas of Chondath and Turmish were subject to extensive manipulation of various groups of monsters and people and fought several battles. The most important of these was an invasion that came from the 'eastern wastelands', through 'Unther' and when it arrived in Chondath, still had some 2,500 people led by a Khan (arcanaloth in disguise). This army was apparently recruited from Wa or Kozakura, the Plain of Horses or the Hordelands and some apparently from the jungles of Tu'Lung.
While it might theoretically have crossed areas of Unther that today mostly belong to the Shaar and thus avoided battles with its armies****, how did it get to Unther without fighting some or all of Khazari, Semphar, the Tuigan, Murghom and Mulhorand?
I'm guessing a gate from the times of Imaskar or Anok-Imaskar that led from some south-western jungly part of Shou/Tu' Lung once ruled from Tempat Larang to the Raurin or Plains of Purple Dust. I don't know why the Anok-Imaskari would want such a gate and I don't think Imaskar itself ever penetrated this far south into Kara-Tur, but it just has to be something like that. Impossible that this army should have crossed all those countries during a time while tensions are high and not had to fight them.
On the other hand, this begs the question of what connection, if any, there is/was between Yrkhetep and Tan Chin. Tan Chin was ruling Solon at this time and Solon is in the 'wastes to the east' from Unther. Did Tan Chin allow this army passage through some portal known (or created by) him? Did Tan Chin manipulate Yrkhetep for some purpose of his own, possibly to make sure that no western forces would come to the aid of Ra-Khati and places further east?
*Not a confusion with the Untheric Empire, either, as that Empire is mentioned in another context, as a rival and enemy of the Chessentans.
**Around, in fact, the end of the First Untheric Empire.
***Apparently existing as a seperate national identity from the Untheri at this time, according to GHotR.
****Or this could have happened during or just after the Time of Troubles, when Unther was in shambles and Mulhorand had not yet invaded.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 10:45:00
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Chessentan Wars
Since the death of Tchazzar and until 1357 DR, there have been, at least, two Cimbar vs. Airspur Wars, an Akanax vs. Soorenar War, an Akanax vs. Luthcheq War, and three Mordulkin vs. Luthcheq Wars.
How much of this can we date? I seem to recall maybe two of them in the GHotR, but not all of them. And then there are the wars Chessenta has been involved in since then.
Very little of it seemed to make it into the GHotR. Chessenta was affected by Yrkhetep, which was some time around ca 1355-1360, and lost a lot of warriors in the fighting in Chondath at that time. War with orcs in the Akanapeaks happened, I think.
In 1367 DR there was something about a Stormwalker and a wizard, Aeron Morieth. It's in a novel, but I got the feeling that it would have affected a lot of things. What happened, precisely?
Until very recently (i.e. until the Salamander War), Chessenta regarded the cities of the Wizards' Reach as the primary threat to its security. It is implied that there have been naval wars between the former League of Samathar and Chessentan cities. When did they take place?
And, oh, is there any canon information on who or what Samathar was? |
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Edited by - Icelander on 26 Feb 2012 10:45:41 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 05:54:17
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Semphar and Yaimmunnahar
In 1359 DR, Caliph Abu Bakr of Semphar surrendered to Hubadai's second, a general left to invest the Madinat. Abu Bakr sworse fealty to Yamun Khahan and was allowed to rule Semphar as satrap of the Khahan. This 'mercy' had one purpose, to allow Abu Bakr to tax his immensely wealthy people at a ruinous rate and turn most of the profits over to his suzerain. In this, he was assisted by a garrison of 5,000 Tuigan warriors, to enforce his increasingly unpopular edicts among his own people. More than half of these warriors later (1360 DR) left Semphar and joined the Tuigan advance to the West, but the remaining 2,000 still backed the Caliph's authority.
Insurrection was brewing, however, and it was not clear that this small garrison could contain Semphari resentment. The taxes may have been lowered, in any event, their gathering was less aggressive in the absence of enough Tuigan warriors to form warbands large enough to safely send into the lands of the provincial nobility and independent-minded tribal leaders. Caliph Abu Bakr, no fool and no stranger to intrigue, started a whispering campaign that his unpopular actions had all been forced by the Tuigan, under great duress.
No more is heard about Semphar for several real-world years and more or less twelve years in Realmstime. In 1372 DR, we are informed by the FRCS, Caliph Abu Bakr rules in Semphar and the nation is 'completely sovereign'. Evidently, Caliph Abu Bakr is no longer dependent on Tuigan approval for any of his actions. This is further strengthened when he is presented in LEoF as dreaming of establishing his own empire and seeking artifacts of lost Solon to 'defend his kingdom from the armies of Skuld'. The only threat he can see to his dream of a Semphari empire is Mulhorand, apparently, and there is no mention of him having any fear of Yaimmunnahar.
So, then, what happened between 1360 and 1372 DR that left the discredited and hated Abu Bakr as sole Caliph once more in Semphar, beholden to no foreign oppressor?
Where did the 2,000 Tuigan that were left in Semphar go? Were they massacred? Did they 'go native' and now form a loyal part of the Caliph's new army? Did they leave peacably?
Why did Hubadai Khahan, self-proclaimed heir to Yamun Khahan, not insist that Abu Bakr's oath of fealty to the Great Khan bound him to Yaimmunnahar after the fall of Yamun? Even if the treacherous Caliph could not care less for the empty wind of words, why did Hubadai, commander of tens of thousands of fierce warriors even at the lowest ebb of his fortunes immediately after the defeat in Thesk, not send an army to retake Semphar?*
It is very unlikely that the necessary rebuilding of a local military capability could proceed fast enough to match the pre-war strength in the time it would take the Tuigan to ride there, so it would be even easier than before. And they only needed 50,000 warriors before, achieving an easy victory which netted them an immensely rich prize. Hubadai's ambition was for a strong Tuigan nation. Why would he not want Semphar as the treasure chest and trading hub of that nation?
Did the unwillingness of Hubadai to enforce his claim over Semphar have anything to do with the threat of Solon? Did Ambuchar Devayam in his short-lived campaign of conquest from 1360-1362 DR control an army of undead** so large that even engaged in war with Ra-Khati and various independent settlements within the Katakoro, even when he was engaged against the hundreds of thousands of the Shou Lung empire, the spectre of his wrath still intimidated the mighty Khahan enough to make him afraid to send a military force within a few hundred miles of him?
Because if he did, there are going to be some pretty exciting things in the area around Solon. Anything intelligent and ambitious among the Rajah's armies is going to claim the area around ruined Solon. But from the LEoF, maybe all that excitement is already done with and Solon is once more a quiet ruin. If so, how did that happen? Was there no fall-out from such a powerful conquering army losing its commander? If there was fallout, on whom did it fall? Semphar? Ulgarth?
Even if Solon was the reason that the Tuigan did not react when Caliph Abu Bakr started to ignore their dictates and behave as he pleased***, why did Yaimmunnahar not conquer Semphar in 1363 DR or later, whenever the fallout over Solon had subsided enough?
It seems to me that Hubadai must have acceded gracefully to the Caliph's desire for independence and that he has somehow managed to convince Abu Bakr, who has every reason to fear the new nation of Yaimmunnahar is a threat to his country, that he means them no harm. How did he do this? Does he really mean them no harm?**** Why does he want an independent Semphar?
So, what are the modern relations between Semphar and its erstwhile suzerain in Yaimmunnahar? Are they allied? Trading partners? Neutral? Mutually ignoring the existence of each other like people who got drunk at the office Christmas party and made out in the copy room?
*If 5,000 Tuigan were enough to be considered able to hold it against native resentment (and 2,000 at least not considered an automatic suicide and abdication of authority), it follows that the 25,000+ man Semphari military described in The Horde Campaign had been substantially destroyed in the initial invasion (though it seems that less than a third of it was actually killed) or that it had been disbanded and disarmed to a great degree after the Tuigan occupation.
**And possibly other things. Constructs? His Durpari dissidents from 50+ years ago (and more likely, their descendants)? People of Solon who had lived there when he conquered it? Hill and mountain tribes of former Solonese territory recruited to his banner, with stories of their Imperial past? Oni, ogre magi, hobgoblins? Orcs from the Dustwall? Goblins? What could possibly have been enough force for Hubadai to fear that if he took Semphar, Solon could challenge his armies on the open plains of that country and pose such a threat to him that it was not worth the risk to take such a rich country?
***And possibly massacred their garrison, if only to placate his furious people and conciliate his more patriotic noble rivals.
****I can't imagine Abu Bakr being naive enough to ignore Yaimmunnahar completely as a threat without Hubadai giving some pretty strong assurances. If Abu Bakr fears distant Mulhorand, fully engaged in a quagmire of a war far to the west, more than neighbouring Yaimmunnahar, full of Tuigan clamouring for loot, glory and war, it is because he is certain that Hubadai will never invade Semphar. So either he's a world-class naive idiot (which doesn't seem to fit with the canny instinct for survival and political maneuvering he's shown in the past) or he has good reasons to be so sure.
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Problematic dates in Realmslore
