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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 21:54:43
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Let it be known that this thread will have a LOT of homebrew, with almost no canon basis for any of it. Its is beyond mere conjecture. This is my Forgotten Realms.... NO.... it is my D&D.
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Originally posted by Jakk
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Originally posted by Markustay
I would also like to apologize to all the good folk of Candlekeep at this time, for having put up with ME for the past 5 years. 
I claim this apology as my own, but I can only cover 3 of those years. Mark, you've been far more valuable to this community than I think you realize. When I learned about your house fire, the first image that entered my mind was the monastery library burning in The Name of the Rose, particularly when you described your "baked hard drive"; the loss of so much of your homebrew Realmslore was a significant loss to this community, whether we realize it or not. Just keep posting your ideas here... Ed and THO have at least hinted that you've been correct more often than not, so keep the hypotheses coming.
There is a not-so-fine line between being informative, and having 'diarrhea of the mouth'. I tend toward the latter.
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Originally posted by Markustay
We also don't know how or when the Vedic pantheon (at least a few members of it) entered Realmspace. I had some theories in the old WotC/Utter East thread about them, but once again, nothing canon. I turned them into the Lords of Creation, which is part of the K-T panthoen (the Torillian version of the Celestial Bureaucracy tends to absorb all other deities it comes into contact with within its infra-structure). Ergo, the K-T (CB) pantheon actually consists of several smaller pantheons, and uses Oriental-deity names for Torillian powers as well (like Cyric, who they call Sirhivatizangpo, or Bhaal, who they called Niynjushigampo).
This is the kind of stuff I'm referring to above. I seem to remember you having a similar theory regarding the Norse pantheon (of whom Tyr is the only member still (widely) known in Toril)... do you have any ideas as to what happened to the rest of them? I had a hypothesis for returning them related to the Spellplague that I posted somewhere in the Keep sometime in 2009, I think... but don't search by date if you go looking for it. I had connected them to a Northmen settlement of "the continent erroneously known as Anchoromé"... and I may or may not have used the accent on the e, for search purposes. 
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Originally posted by Markustay
@Icelander:
While I agree with you in-principle, I just wanted to point out that the retcons to the setting could possibly allow us to 'stretch' certain canon. Anytime the words 'Abeir-Toril' are used, we now have a bit of leeway in how we want to use the lore (but only in certain instances, like this one).
Strangely, they created Abeir, but then didn't bother to do anything with it besides using it as "FR's garbage pail". I have found dozens of ways to backwards-canonize it by finding past lore to link to it, but they simply didn't bother (except for Brian, with some little bit connecting the shifting geography of the ToT to it).
Anyhow, have fun with this project. I know I spent several years trying to work all of this out (and Gray and George before me), and every time a new product (or article) came-out, it immediately crapped on all my theories, so be prepared to be very upset when 5e is released.
Part of me suspects that this is the point to all of these revisions... every time something is found that makes sense, it must be changed. No, that's too cynical and far too  in general. Anyway, I'd love to hear these theories, assuming you still recall them all. The way you describe it, and I'm inclined to agree, it's almost as if the Realms obeys Humean non-causality... if A then B, A, therefore C. I have a few different names for this sort of logic, but they're nearly all potentially inflammatory... 
At any rate, there have been so many contradictions added to the lore in the last three editions that, in the absence of my older FR books, I'm almost prepared to go back and hide in Golarion until Ed's FR book comes out at the end of the year. However, that raises a good point in itself, and brings this post back on topic...
What, if any, connection is there between the D&D-Earth Ancient Egypt, the Torilian Mulhorand, and Osirion of Golarion? What if Osirion was founded by planar migrants from ancient Egypt, and the Imaskari slaves of this culture were taken from Golarion? Osirion was clearly named for Osiris, and yet Golarion has no trace of the Egyptian pantheon. Perhaps the gods knew that the slaves taken by the Imaskari were in far greater need of their protection, and that the other gods of Golarion would watch over their people on that world.
Thoughts? Lore sources that can confirm or refute this idea? In particular, lore sources that can shed light on the fates of the other members of these pantheons are most welcome, and I know this particular topic has been touched on before.
I sometimes feel lore is 'targeted' at specific things, just because certain people don't want anyone else getting credit for anything, but I think that its more a matter of coincidence, and less a matter of anything sinister. In other words, I think I may be giving them far more credit then I should be. 
As for the Norse - I think Odin is Annam and Thor is Gruumsh/Talos, but thats just me. I also think Oghma might be the same being as Bragi, but has long since given up some of those portfolios to others (including Finder). Tyr may have also absorbed Forseti's portfolios in FR. Fenris is obviously Kezef, and I think Sune/Hanali(/Aphorodite) is also Freya. I also have Frey pegged as the 'King of the Light Elves' (Vanir) and Corellon's father, but that goes well beyond supposition and firmly into homebrew. Frigga can also be Akadi (since I made Odin a primoridal by linking him to Annam), and Hel might be either Talona or Kiputytto (but she works better as Kiputytto).
So the Norse gods are there - you just have to know where to look.
Imaskar
I have long felt the Imaskari were like a 'Creator race', in that they and their culture have spread throughout the many worlds, in much the same way as the Goa'uld from Stargate (I even consider them one and the same, actually - super-tech = 'magic'). Ergo, the Mulan slaves were actually from an Imaskari colony on Earth, that had been there for hundreds of years. I also feel they had similar colonies on Oerth (Greyhawk) and many other worlds, which is why we see many similar empires. To my way of thinking, the Imaskari were like 'gods', and that on their colony-worlds they would have been viewed as such (in fact, Goa'uld means "children of the gods"). Eventually, the leaders of these colonies - through worship (they set themselves up as 'god kings') - ascended, and became actual gods (the Egyptian pantheon).
When the Imaskari back home (on Toril) caught wind of what was going on, they set up the godwall to stop their own archmages (now gods) from returning and taking over. Therefor, Toril did NOT end up with 'earth gods', but rather, the Imaskari interfered with primitive cultures and brought about their own ascendance, and the 'Mulan Gods' were merely the archmages that had found their way home.
This scenario changes nothing - it just changes the flavor of the conflict. The Mulan slaves - bred and brought through portals for centuries - would have still worshiped their former masters back home on the colony worlds. To make this work (if WotC were inclined to do so), all they would have to do is back-fill in some early history and give the enclave (colony) leader's names a bit of a Faerunian slant (Amaunraa, Mysiis, Jergal (for Nergal), Thothos, Hoar = Horus, etc).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2012 04:31:23
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 22:25:00
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| In that scenario, did the Imaskari originate on Toril? |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 22:32:39
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While Annam might at least be made to fit Odin*, having at least two similarities in the appelation All-Father and the story about learning rune magic with a personal sacrifice, I would strongly object to Thor being identified with Gruumsh or Talos.**
First of all, of course, giants are the enemies of the Æsir, not their allies or their children. Second, Thor is the destroyer of giants, not someone who glories in destruction for its own sake. If orcs were present in Nordic sagas, Thor would consider them merely small giant-kin, them being enemies of men and civilisation, and he'd hammer them good.
Thor was worshipped by farmers praying for rain and the ordinary people for protection from the harsh elements around them. He's not a god of destruction by any means and he's not a god of territory or conquest either, because he never warred for profit or land, he did it for glory, joy in his strength and thirst for adventure. And, most importantly, he did it in defence of his home and of mankind, of whom he was evidently fond in most of the myths.
In the D&D aligment system, Thor is clearly Chaotic Good. Odin might be Neutral or Lawful Neutral.
Personally, I'd call the superficial similarities of 'All-Father' and a single myth inspired by a myth about Odin nothing more than giant culture being vaguely inspired by Nordic culture and the central god-figure therefore likely to have some similarities.
*With sufficient laissez-faire to ignore such differences as Odin being a crafty and subtle god whereas Annam is rather direct and blustering (not to mention taking some thousands of years to notice when he's being cuckolded, something which in the Norse sagas would absolutely preclude being accorded any respect at all). Odin was schemer first, magician and seer second and warlord only third.
**As for calling them the same god, that's just ridiculous. They were not the same god in 3e (or similar), if they are the same god now, it's because one or the other has defeated the other and taken his power. Fortunately, gods merge or split into different aspects all the time, so few godly continuity issues are irreconcilable. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 22:53:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
In that scenario, did the Imaskari originate on Toril?
Probably not, as they are canonically described as having developed permanent extradimensional spaces* and cities a 127 years after developing acriculture.
Earth humans took from 3,000-17,000 years to go from the beginning of acriculture to cities, depending on what theories you buy.
So, the Imaskari were either staggering geniuses to a man or they came to the Nemrut already with a plan for their civilisation and the technological and magical knowledge necessary to carry it out.
*One assumes that in order to perform such powerful magic, people must be able to read and write, not to mention being able to actually craft the structures that they want to enchant. |
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Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 23:11:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I sometimes feel lore is 'targeted' at specific things, just because certain people don't want anyone else getting credit for anything, but I think that its more a matter of coincidence, and less a matter of anything sinister. In other words, I think I may be giving them far more credit then I should be.
 Good to know I'm not the only one who feels that way... on all counts. I try not to be paranoid, but it's sometimes difficult when all I see in canon seems designed to tear down everything that I've built into my Realms. On the plus side, I haven't felt that way since my initial perusal of the 4E FR hardcovers, so progress has been made; yes, I can look at those books and find useful things now.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the Norse - I think Odin is Annam and Thor is Gruumsh/Talos, but thats just me. I also think Oghma might be the same being as Bragi, but has long since given up some of those portfolios to others (including Finder). Tyr may have also absorbed Forseti's portfolios in FR. Fenris is obviously Kezef, and I think Sune/Hanali(/Aphorodite) is also Freya. I also have Frey pegged as the 'King of the Light Elves' (Vanir) and Corellon's father, but that goes well beyond supposition and firmly into homebrew. Frigga can also be Akadi (since I made Odin a primoridal by linking him to Annam), and Hel might be either Talona or Kiputytto (but she works better as Kiputytto).
So the Norse gods are there - you just have to know where to look.
So the 4E conflation of the deities was something you'd started long before it happened in canon, then?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Imaskar
I have long felt the Imaskari were like a 'Creator race', in that they and their culture have spread throughout the many worlds, in much the same way as the Goa'uld from Stargate (I even consider them one and the same, actually - super-tech = 'magic'). Ergo, the Mulan slaves were actually from an Imaskari colony on Earth, that had been there for hundreds of years. I also feel they had similar colonies on Oerth (Greyhawk) and many other worlds, which is why we see many similar empires. To my way of thinking, the Imaskari were like 'gods', and that on their colony-worlds they would have been viewed as such (in fact, Goa'uld means "children of the gods"). Eventually, the leaders of these colonies - through worship (they set themselves up as 'god kings') - ascended, and became actual gods (the Egyptian pantheon).
When the Imaskari back home (on Toril) caught wind of what was going on, they set up the godwall to stop their own archmages (now gods) from returning and taking over. Therefor, Toril did NOT end up with 'earth gods', but rather, the Imaskari interfered with primitive cultures and brought about their own ascendance, and the 'Mulan Gods' were merely the archmages that had found their way home.
This scenario changes nothing - it just changes the flavor of the conflict. The Mulan slaves - bred and brought through portals for centuries - would have still worshiped their former masters back home on the colony worlds. To make this work (if WotC were inclined to do so), all they would have to do is back-fill in some early history and give the enclave (colony) leader's names a bit of a Faerunian slant (Amaunraa, Mysiis, Jergal (for Nergal), Thothos, Hoar = Horus, etc).
Very interesting ideas... but we know the Imaskari were an element of a creator race; humans are the forgotten creator race. Or are you suggesting that the ancient Imaskari were not entirely human, and were distinct enough to qualify as a race of their own? That is an interesting hypothesis indeed... now, where's your evidence?  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 21 Feb 2012 23:11:57 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 23:14:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
In that scenario, did the Imaskari originate on Toril?
Probably not, as they are canonically described as having developed permanent extradimensional spaces* and cities a 127 years after developing acriculture.
Earth humans took from 3,000-17,000 years to go from the beginning of acriculture to cities, depending on what theories you buy.
So, the Imaskari were either staggering geniuses to a man or they came to the Nemrut already with a plan for their civilisation and the technological and magical knowledge necessary to carry it out.
*One assumes that in order to perform such powerful magic, people must be able to read and write, not to mention being able to actually craft the structures that they want to enchant.
Don't discount sorcery (which needs no writing), or them building on the works of other races. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 23:35:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Don't discount sorcery (which needs no writing), or them building on the works of other races.
Naturally the Bakhara Spires were reverse-engineered from batrachi magic, yes.
On the other hand, merely having schematics* for an advanced invention is little or no help before the societal infrastructure, economic surplus and ancilliary technological developments have caught up enough to allow for the construction of said device.
It's why even a brilliant engineer from the future would find it much, much more difficult to bootstrap an primitive society to industrial success than he has been led to believe by fiction.
You can't build things without tools, so you have to start with them before you can even begin your own project. Few people know how to build the tools that they use for their own speciality and even if they do, most tools that are any goods are the products of literally hundreds of specialists working with the fruits of labour and trade from thousands of other people.
Advanced societies are societies of specialists, each of whom could not do much of anything without all the others. And primitive societies are societies of generalists and the costs of turning some of these generalists into specialists are staggering, not to mention that unless they are specialising in something that is already prestigious in their society, you're going to have to impose it by force.
In a society without specialists, i.e. where everyone needs to be able to perform every single task necessary for his survival and comfort himself, few people will develop much more than basic skill at most things (because there is so much to learn). At most, they'll become experts at things that gain them adulation from prospective mates and those who already have high status. Unfortunately, these tend to be things that contribute to short-term survival and not things which would result in everyone becoming richer at some distant date.
Investing in education or even skill-training requires a surplus of food, enough for some individuals to be fed by others, and it also requires that the future be secure enough for investment to be viable.
I'm not saying that the Imaskari can't have existed. I am saying that there is a very interesting untold story behind them somewhere. For sure and certain they were not merely one of a bunch of Durpari 'barbarian' tribes living at a hunter-gatherer level when they entered Nemrut in -8,350 DR. Their story starts well before that, either on another plane or with one or more of them encountering something very interesting on Toril.
*Not to mention that schematics seperated by 20,000+ years and an alien anatomy and intellect from the Imaskari would be so hard to decipher that for a transitional agrarian economy to manage it is almost as impressive as it would have been for them to independently invent the magic. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 21 Feb 2012 23:35:38 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 04:29:30
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Yup.
Nearly all of the following is homebrew.....
Imaskar
The Imaskari gained their astounding knowledge from the Fey, and also an ancient, half-sunken city they discovered in the Raurin basin. A city that once belonged to the Batrachi, wherein they worshiped their own 'god of portals'. The nomadic Mujhari that made this discovery called this deity "Ao's Kar" (Child of the High God). They took the city as their own, and discovered its secrets, and once they got the portal (Stargate) working, they met the Fey.
Their Amir was named Ima, and the people of this city became known as "Ima's Kar" (Ima's children), and he lead them to do great things, including repairing the city and bringing it to new heights. Soon word spread, and other Muhjein settled the lands of the Raurin, and the Imaskar Empire was born. They continued to worship the ancient 'portal god' (Aoskar), until one fateful day the entire holy-city just disappeared (See Rip Van Wormer's excellent theory regarding Sigil and the Imaskari).
Since that time, they swore-off 'the gods', but they continued to build upon the portal knowledge they gleaned from the ancient Batrachi device, and what the Fey shared with them, and soon they were colonizing other worlds, and reaping both raw materials and slaves from these endeavors.
Deities
I did combine most of the deities in one ultimate 'proto-pantheon'. I do NOT think Thor and Gruumsh are the same being - I think both Thor and Gruumsh are aspects of some ancient, primal 'Storm Power'. I refer to these proto-deities as 'Archtypes' (to use a phrase from earlier editions to describe the demi-human gods), and just as a regular deity has avatars, these 'Archtypes' have their own Avatars, which don't have to be that much alike (just as a deity's aspects don't have to be alike). Since these Archavatars (for lack of a better term at the moment) are self-aware, and deities in their own right. They don't even have to get along, and usually don't (Its like Immortals - "there can be only one"). This is why Archtypes normally only provide one Archavatar per Sphere - often they will battle until one absorbs the other.
This is what I think happened to Talos. I think he was the Torillian 'Storm God' (and perhaps more like Thor originally), and that when Gruumsh came-over during the Orcgate Wars, they fought and Gruumsh subsumed Talos. The aspects of gods are directly influenced by mortal worship, so it stands to reason that on the 'Orc World', the storm god became a brutal tyrant-like power.
I also believe all deities began as mortals, and the most ancient - the Fey/Celtic and Vedic pantheons - were merely the first (human) mortals to ascend. I believe that all five Creator Races had their own ascensions, and then their own pantheons (which fought the primordials and took power from them).
The Creators
I believe that the five creator Races each represent one of the five primal elements - The Sarrukh fire, the Batrachi Water, the Aeriee air (there's a no-brainer), the Fey earth, and finally, Mankind, which combines all four elements into the elusive fifth element 'life'. The four Elemental Lords sponsored the first four, but the 'Great Spirit' (Overgod+) sponsored humans, and chose them to be "the Race of Destiny" (and what that exactly means, not even gods yet know).
I said the Imaskari were "like" a creator-race unto themselves, since they spread their own knowledge and culture to so many worlds. The people who followed the Celestial Bureaucracy - the Anoque - did much the same (but did not originate on Toril). The Imaskari are definitely of Mujhari origin, and even outside of the Imaskari no other people have spread so far and wide all over Toril.
I also think that somewhere in the universe, the Maztica/MesoAmerica/Hepmonaland culture evolved, and did much the same thing. These are all proto-cultures, that may have existed on the 'True World'.
The True World
This is a term taken from the Mazticans, and I like it and have decided to apply to a much wider concept. The 'True World' was the first world - the one the Creators were created to live in, and where the primordials dwelt amongst the elements and energies of earth and sky. There were no deities, until powerful Creators learned the secrets of 'the gods' and ascended. The Prime (lesser) Ordials did not want to share their power with these upstarts, and war broke out, and in the process the world's miseries were born - death, famine, plague, & pestilence (conquest). Imaar, the Ordial of the firmament - of physical matter - was the first to die, but not the last.
At last the the Primordials were brought low, and many were imprisoned throughout the cosmos (some say by the deities, others by the High Ordials). But the world was destroyed, and the mortal beings were dying - barely kept alive by the life-giving power of Gaia, who merged herself with the dead Imaar just to sustain them. And so the gods set-out to build a new universe from the shattered remains - each piece becoming a new 'crystal Sphere' to house the mortals and nurture them. The universe was now big enough for all to share in equally - Ordials, Deities, & Archons (angelic types) - all had their place in the scheme of things, and their own worlds to care for.
The one, True World had died, but like the phoenix, a new universe arose from its ashes. The many similar cultures throughout it can be traced back to those antideluvian times - to the Creators themselves, and those first civilizations, now lost. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2012 16:04:06 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 06:40:08
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Many thanks, Mark; this is very good stuff.
So... if all deities began as mortals, then this would imply that the deities of each culture are unique, and are not "the same deity known by different names elsewhere" unless that cross-cultural identification is simply an erroneous simplification on the part of the mortals... which would mean that there is no single "dominant" identity of any deity except as far as one culture is dominant over others. And I expect that this would change the origin story of Selune, Shar, Mystra, and Chauntea as well... unless this is something you used specifically for your own homebrew world and not for your FR. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 22 Feb 2012 06:40:53 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 15:36:49
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| Isn't Bukhara a place on Earth, somewhere in central Asia? |
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Edited by - Marc on 22 Feb 2012 15:37:03 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 15:51:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Isn't Bukhara a place on Earth, somewhere in central Asia?
Its a city in Uzbekistan. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 16:49:36
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Where does the term 'Bukhara Spires' originate? Is that Brian or George's stuff? Was it canonized somewhere? I know I described some in my CKC article, but I don't think I ever had a name for them.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Many thanks, Mark; this is very good stuff.
So... if all deities began as mortals, then this would imply that the deities of each culture are unique, and are not "the same deity known by different names elsewhere" unless that cross-cultural identification is simply an erroneous simplification on the part of the mortals... which would mean that there is no single "dominant" identity of any deity except as far as one culture is dominant over others. And I expect that this would change the origin story of Selune, Shar, Mystra, and Chauntea as well... unless this is something you used specifically for your own homebrew world and not for your FR.
That was the super-simplified version. MY WIP proto-cosmology was in five parts, and since I created several terms myself (and altered existing ones), I also had a fully indexed (footnoted) glossary.
There are three 'cosmic' tiers of power (mortals, deities, & Ordials), and within each of those an additional three tiers (making nine).
Mortals - Heroic, Paragon, & Epic
Deities - lesser, intermediate, & Greater
Ordials - Prime (lesser), Watcher (Intermediate), & Eldar (greater)
Below each of the three major cosmic tiers are ascendent levels - Commoner (Chaf), Exarch (Archon/demigod), and Celestial (High God). Above the Ordial level there is only one being (two, really... but we try not to think about Cthon).
I realize I used the term 'Celestial' differently then D&D does (I capitalize my group, but thats hardly a difference). In my homebrew stuff, I call the D&D celestials Archons, and just eliminate that group (I have other 'angelic' groups). Fiends, Oni (neutral), Archons, and demipowers, are all Exarchs (which has its on internal ten-level hierarchy - level 6 begins DvR 1).
'High God' is my term for the leaders of pantheons - they have more power then the deities beneath them, but are not quite Ordials (in D&D parlance, they could be considered 'demi-ordials'). Mystra, along with Fate, Maztica (the being), and the Celestial Emperor would all be 'High Gods' in my structure. Some may even be primordials who have stepped-down a notch (either on-purpose, or through a loss of power). Odin - who I equate to Annam - would fall-out in this category, so he may not be a true primorial - he may just be an ascended mortal from so far back in time that he has achieved near-primordial status (along with Zeus, Ra, Vishnu, etc).
My Oni are a WIP - neutral is always tough. Right now I've lumped the devas and Yugoloths into that over-group (this is the group responsible for carrying out "the will of the gods" - they can punish as well as help). They are the 'gofers' of the divine, so to speak, whereas fiends and Archons (D&D celestials) are a bit more independent (although the lines blur quite a bit, and any Exarch can be good or evil, judged by mortal standards, dependent upon the situation, and all are at the 'beck & call' of deities... except the uber-powerful (Lords) ones, who are near-gods themselves). I will probably lump the free-willed elemental nobles (Djinn) into the Oni as well (Efreeti look just like Oriental Oni anyway).
So, lots of layers, from mortal to 'The God', and lots of overlap. I also consider anything above 'Mortal-Epic' to be 'a god', but not a deity - 'god' being a simple descriptor for anything above the mortal level - it has 'True Sight' (The Sight), includes the ability to plane-shift, and also alter its appearance). Anything above that mortal level (with a DvR of at least 0) can be worshiped, but only a deity or higher (DvR 6) can grant spells. However, those of lesser level (like archfiends and demigods) usually have a 'pact' with a higher order being, and share the power accumulated through this worship (the demi-power acting as in-between layer fro gods that don't want to be bothered with these sorts of minor cults).
Much of this is built off the canon RAW, except where I altered it to fit my own homebrew version of the cosmology. I tried to keep within D&Ds (and FRs) structure as much as possible. because it makes it easier to convert stuff as I go along. For instance, I use most of he material in the 3e DD (an excellent source), but have extended the usage of DvR.
Also, there are ten levels within each sub-tier, so I have incorporated the 4e system into it as well. The only change (tweak, really) I have made is the assumption that at level 25, the universe 'recognizes' that the character has achieved DvR 0. At lev.26 you are a 'super-hero', and have achieved true demi-power status (DvR 1), and so on and so forth, gaining one DvR per CL. This also works within the divine ascension system described in Dragon Kings (a DS supplement, but very good).
So yeah, I actually did much of what 4e did ("one rule to rule them all") long before 4e did. The more I look at it (the system), the more I realize I would have probably embraced it, had it not been for what happened to FR in 4e. I also had an FR campaign set in the 1470's - weird, huh? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2012 17:09:28 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 17:32:42
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Not sure if you understood some of my earlier intent - the pantheons we normally associate with Earth I have placed much further back in time, to archtypes that arose from the ascended Creators. On different worlds they can be known by different names, and even be very different in aspect, but they can all be traced back to the 'True World', and the Creators. Ergo, the original tribes of humans would have had powerful, mortal leaders named Wôden, etc, who ascended through hero-worship, and became the very first deities.
Back to the Mulan:
I realized I had not covered the Untheric gods in my theories.
On Earth those deities were worshiped by their ancient Sumerian names. When the Imaskari arrived in that time period, the leaders of the enclave had the names closer to the Babylonian pantheon. What those Imaskari Artificers did was tell the people (of earth) they were those gods, and the worship changed focus from the older powers to the Artificers in-charge. By the time the Sumer deities realized what was going on, the Imaskari had already ascended and taken most of their power, turning the older deities into mere aspects of themselves (they had to serve them, like self-aware avatars, or 'Exarchs').
Thats my fix for that bit of nonsense. The Pharonic Pantheon may have done something similar to the earlier Egyptian pantheon.
My assumption here is that the portfolios (divine positions) are already there, some already filled, and others waiting to be filled. Newly arisen deities can take the place of older aspects - it just means that new sentience has seized those portfolios from whomebver held them before.
Ergo, Re (Mulhorand's sun deity) was an Imaskari Archmage (AmaunRa?) who usurped the power of Ra back on Earth. At the same time, both are just aspects of the ancient 'sun power'. Part of the reason why I do this is to simplify the rules surrounding deities - I believe the mechanics should be written to the portfolios, not the gods themselves.
Giants & Gods:
As I dig deeper into ancient religions, including proto-Christianity, I find myself redefining what giants are. Some of this also relates to another current thread...
What if the giants were the 'First men'? 
The world was bigger back then, so why not? I know this is really out in left field, but could it be - could the Human creator race actually be giants? Although it steps all over quite a bit of canon, it would help to explain-away other things (in my own 'theory of everything', but perhaps not in D&D).
Some of the stuff I did with the dwarves (my Diverge) lead me to this path. The giants were given the Rûntharc - the physical symbols representing the 'language primeval' - so that they may shape the world to their likening. But many of them misused this power, and were then punished by the gods.
Now, since I proscribe to a 'One World' theory for creation, then maybe when the world was shattered and 'lessened', so to were the Creators? That first world would have filled the Prime material - it would have easily been big-enough for giants to exist in and have huge empires. But the smaller crystal-Spheres didn't have that near-infinite room, so perhaps the 'powers that be' decreased people in size as well?
The only problem with this is why weren't the other Creators effected similarly? Any ideas? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2012 17:38:13 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 18:32:36
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| That actually works well with how in the PFRPG "giants" are humanoids with the giant subtype. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
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* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
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My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
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* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 18:53:47
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If and when I do my website with my homebrew world (a project on indefinite hold ATM), I was going to be using the PF rules...
..at first.
Since the project has to be pretty-much restarted from scratch, I may write it to the 5e rules, but we shall see. The only reason why I never even considered 4e was because I didn't want to sign anything. If I am going to be doing a company a service by supporting their products, I do NOT want them to have any sort of control over my artistic endeavors.
'Open' systems receive better support from the community simply because of their nature. Why support someone who might sue you, or order you to 'shut down'? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 19:19:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Where does the term 'Bukhara Spires' originate? Is that Brian or George's stuff? Was it canonized somewhere? I know I described some in my CKC article, but I don't think I ever had a name for them.
I first came across it in GHotR, but I make room for the possibility that it might have appeared earlier. I could not find the term in LEoF, at any rate.
It is tempting to relate the name to the real-world region/city* of Bukhara. As far as Forgotten Realms geography can correspond with Earth-like geography, Bukhara would correspond fairly well to the heartlands of Lower Imaskar, being almost certainly located somewhere in central to northern Limia, with only minimal fudging** necessary to state that it corresponds with Solon.
The main problem is that the in the real world, the origin of the term 'Bukhara' can hardly be dated much earlier than 1000 BCE, with conservative estimates putting it nearer 700-500 BCE. Then there is the fact that the Mulan taken by the Lower Imaskari are unlikely indeed to have been taken from this region of Earth.
In any event, until quite recent history, the inhabitants of the region would have been poor slaves. Domination of the strong over the weak is subject to economies of scale. For one or several archwizards attempting to impose their will on a larger, but more magically weak, population, a strong central authority and militarised society are assets. It's easier to force a hundred men to force a thousand to impose your will on a hundred thousand than it is to try to force a couple of thousand individually to do anything.
It therefore makes perfect sense that the Imaskari would raid the established hierarchial societies of the 'Art-less' world that they entered and mostly leave the small tribal units alone, unless they happened to be intergrated to some degree into a larger polity. And the region containing Bukhara did not have the kind of hierarchial society that would have pleased the Imaskari until after 500 BCE, which is certainly too late for the Imaskari to have been carrying out large-scale slaving on an Earth-like world, if nothing else because it would have introduced a far greater range of recognisable Earth-languages in the area around Imaskar***.
On the other hand, postulating Bukhara-on-Earth are the site for the 'proof of concept' for the form of portals that would become known as Bukhara Spires is not wholly unreasonable. Bukhara-on-Toril could then become a prosperous Artificer enclave in the Early Dynastic Period****, named after its founding wizard and genius researcher, that with its location on the far side of the pass through the Raurinshield Mountains marked the outer north and east edge of Imaskari settlement.
The geographic isolation from the heartland of the Imskari would have provided an excellent location for experimentation with the batrachi constructs found in the Gbor Nor, particularly if early experiments provided a sobering realisation about the dangers of portals. The while the mouth of the gap where Bukhara would have stood was wide enough to resemble a valley more than a mountain pass, it narrowed eventually to what would become the Howling Gap. This is a near perfect natural defence from any hazardous creatures that might emerge in force from a failed experiment with portals.
Added to that, the evidence suggests that early Imaskari, before their empire reached further east and north, found it necessary to bind powerful extra-planar creatures there to defend their empire... from something. Imagining that at first the Imaskari could not control the destination of the batrachi gates and that they therefore first explored the places where the batrachi went is plausible. Canonically, the first dimensional magic that they explored was 'extradimensional spaces', which rely on access to the Ethereal. These would then be precursor technology to the great spires that allowed travel between worlds.
While the connections are not obvious until the emergence of my unified cosmology, imagining a few decades of frustrated experimentation of Limbo leading to the Elemental Chaos and from thence to the Elemental Planes should be plausible enough. At this time, the rewards of this exploration are still elusive, but with encounters with 'civilised' genies, far more human-like and suspectible to manipulation with magic and might than any previously encountered beings through these gates, that would change.
The proceeds from genie-slavery would fund Inupras and the beginning of the Empire. Sensibly, planar expeditions were still short, secretive and ruthless. The slaves were cut off from their home once they were brought back, because regardless of the wealth available on the Elemental Planes, the great Djen civilisations there were more than powerful enough to cause Imaskari artificers great worry. They bound some of the stolen genies to the Howling Gap to defend from potential invasions by their kin.
Continuing investigation would eventually result in a portal reaching other Prime Material worlds. A permanent base was then set up in one of them found to be extremely unlikely to result in a dangerous invasion, i.e. one where the inhabitants had no acccess to the Art (and there were no dangerous monsters). Exploration would reveal that there existed no natural resources that were easily exploitable with any more ease than those of the still-unclaimed lands around them on Toril and that while none of the natives could have stood against them, magic was harder to research and perform in this world. This prevented any large scale emigration and kept interaction minimal.
As noted earlier, slave-taking there would not have been economical, not compared to the effectively free source of new labour as Imaskari lower classes bred at a prodigious rate as the methods of food production soared in efficiency. Continuing a birth rate which proved sufficient to replenish semi-settled populations in times of strife with early Imaskari would have resulted in the assimilated lower class population being capable of doubling every generation easily enough, assuming food production kept pace*****.
From opening portals to other Prime Material worlds, it would not be long until the Imaskari could open portals to their own world and control their terminuses with extreme precision. This would then open the way for their great conquests in the neighbouring regions.
Not until the massive die-off of their lower classes in the plagues preceding Shartra would it become economical to take slaves from other planes again and then they would construct the two Bukhara Spires to Earth (or Earth-analogue), locating them near enough major civilisations to make it economical to subdue local rulers and have them lead populations through.
What about the name 'Bukhara' and its use for the modern Earth region? Well, that's easy to explain. The fall of Imaskar neatly dovetails with the conservative date for the origin of the term 'Bukhara' around the oasis on Earth and the etymology is very disputed. Postulating that before the great spires were destroyed by vengeful Mulan divine servitors, a few Imaskari escaped through, seems plausible enough.
Living on a world without access to the Art, they would eventually have interbred with the locals and their descendants within a short time lost all talent for it.
*The city stands where an ancient oasis, inhabited for at least 5,000 years, once stood. This oasis has at times sheltered urban areas from which the surrounding areas were ruled and the term 'Bukhara' has been applied to these areas and its rulers almost as often as it has refered to the narrower geographic area of the oasis.
**That is, it clearly does not precisely correspond in longtitude or relation to the immense range of mountains which exist on both worlds, but combine the different shape of the mountain ranges with a greater size for Toril, as well as different climates, and it's at least good enough for government work. A better approximation of the exact correspondance, though, going by relation to the mountains, would be near the mouth of the pass between the Raurinshield Mountains and Semphar province, on the Limia side. Placing it in Semphar itself is about as justifiable as equating it with Solon and equating it with Bhaluin (on the theory that an equivalent to Gbor Nor does not exist on Earth) could theoretically be done, but only by a GM desperately in love with Bhaluin.
***While the Realms are not poor in Earth-like languages, preexisting canon would make it difficult to justify almost all of them being derived from the fall of Imaskar and ultimately from Ancient Central Asia.
****Established ca -8,000 DR as a trading post between shepherd tribes in the foothills of the Raurinshield and future God's Watch Mountains; the horse, bovid and deer hunters of the Limia uplands; the korobokuru of the Shan Nala (either an earlier name for the Raurinshields or a smaller range connected to or part of the Katakoro Shan) and the acricultural Imaskari.
*****And as long as the Imaskari could continue to apply whatever miracle they originally used in the Nemrut to the other areas of their increasing domain, there is no reason to assume it would not, at least until new lands to sow ran out. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 19:36:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On Earth those deities were worshiped by their ancient Sumerian names. When the Imaskari arrived in that time period, the leaders of the enclave had the names closer to the Babylonian pantheon. What those Imaskari Artificers did was tell the people (of earth) they were those gods, and the worship changed focus from the older powers to the Artificers in-charge. By the time the Sumer deities realized what was going on, the Imaskari had already ascended and taken most of their power, turning the older deities into mere aspects of themselves (they had to serve them, like self-aware avatars, or 'Exarchs').
I think that 'non-sense' is a strong word. You are aware that with perfectly reasonable history, you can get a time period where Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian and Amorite gods coexisted in a small geographic area and the pantheons mixed in a wide variety of ways, at least one of which is pretty close to the Untheri?
Throwing in a few groups from the surrounding geographic areas could also give us monotheism and a strong candidate for a proto-religion that could diverge into the Lords of Creation (upon admixture with a native Torilian religion, for which see later) and a hypothetical chariot-based warlike religion which we can do interesting things with in the immediately post-Imaskari era (before postulating the merging of gods and pantheons in the forming of the Faerunian one). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 19:56:12
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Why would I want to have them all be co-existant, when my goal is to down-size?
The Babylonian gods were/are the Sumerian gods. To separate them is as silly (IMO) as separating the Greek and Roman pantheons, just because of the difference in names.
My goal is to mash-up all the RW religions into one over-cosmology, not continue to support the older paradigm where every single religion existed unto itself.
The Great Wheel is a wonderful game-model, and applaud Gary Gygax and everyone else who contributed to it (including Ed), but while it is all-inclusive (and brilliantly so), the deific lore behind it exists in a vacuum. WHY would all these pantheons co-exist? On their own - as they were (basically) in our RW, they worked, but just dumped-together in one playground, not so much.
The Great Wheel is unstable. I grew up with it, and love it dearly, but it doesn't really work. All of those gods existing in the same set of planes would have gone to war with each other until only one survived. Gods are not good at compromise - read the myths. Their egos are two big for that.
So I establish a loose framework of 'archtypes', off of whom all others are just reflections. It works for me - I don't expect it to work for anyone else.
The Norse:
Also, many scholars believe that several of the Aesir had 'giant blood', not just Loki. We also know its a fact that the Norse religion is one of the few in the world that excepts the fact that other pantheons not only exist, but members of 'other groups' are even part of the Norse pantheon (The Vanir, and also a few giants).
The supposition that the Norse gods are all 'human' is wrong - once a being moves beyond the physical world, they shed the flesh that gives them form, and they can take any form they want (which is usually the form worshipers expect them to take). Just because vikings see Odin as a human doesn't mean Odin was a human. Its not so hard to imagine an 'All-Father' god that has different aspects - we even have two different versions of Tyr in canon.
I'm not so much trying to fill in the gaps in canon (as you are doing) - I've already tried going that route - but rather trying to expound and extrapolate on the lore, and build something new (and stable), without overly upsetting the old lore. I do not ignore canon, so much as 're-define' it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2012 19:57:06 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 20:15:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Why would I want to have them all be co-existant, when my goal is to down-size?
Well, whoever originally wrote the Untheri pantheon and culture clearly sought inspiration from more than one culture. Rather than have the Imaskari raid four or five areas over different time periods and assume that Faerunian Mulan then somehow decided to follow real-world patterns of ethnic assimilations that happened under different circumstances, it makes the most sense to assume that the Untheri culture descends from a real-world culture where all of those co-existed.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Babylonian gods were/are the Sumerian gods. To separate them is as silly (IMO) as separating the Greek and Roman pantheons, just because of the difference in names.
The gods of Unter consist of Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian and Amorite gods, at least.
You can't assume that the 'invading' nations brought nothing to the cultural synthesis. Sumerian culture does not appear to have had many of the gods that Unther worship/ped.
Not to mention that Untheri names appear to have linguistic roots that are not Sumeri in many, perhaps most cases. This is consistent with Mesopotamia in the post-Semetic 'invasion', but not with any one culture in it before.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My goal is to mash-up all the RW religions into one over-cosmology, not continue to support the older paradigm where every single religion existed unto itself.
And that's fine.
But I was objecting to the fact that the Untheric pantheon of Faerun was in any way not plausibly derived from a real-world source. It is every bit as plausible as the Mulhorandi one and it has a genesis in a particular period of real-world history. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 02:36:52
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More random thoughts...
Its just a job...
I mentioned in another thread not to long ago about how I think 'Batrachi' is a race, and 'Devil' is just a job, and that the same can be said for Tanar'ri and 'Demon'. I believe it was in the thread discussing Succubi and Aerynies. Now I believe it has more to do with the planes themselves.
To take this a step further, what if nearly every plane have these terms for 'resident' (as in, either native, or have been there so long you've 'gone native'). Ergo, 'Devil' just means a resident of the Hells, and 'Demon' just means a resident of The Abyss. Now lets take the Feywild - maybe everyone 'from there' are fey, but the actual Fey creator race (Le'Shay, or just 'the Sidhe') is not necessarily the same thing. So being 'fey' would be like being a devil or demon - it just describes where you are 'from' (or the plane you have a connection to currently).
The reason why I had this train of thought is because I wanted the giants (in my own cosmology, not FR) to be there own thing, and yet, felt that at least some of them should be 'fey' (like the Fomorians). then I realized I had a similar problem with the dwarves, and just decided that dwarves who are native to the feywild are of the fey subtype.
Thus, Giants can follow the same rule. They can be of the race 'giant', but the term 'fey' merely denotes where they live (or where their allegiances lie). Not so much a 'job descriptor' anymore, as a way of saying where something is from. Maybe we could use Shadvari in the same manner - a term denoting creatures 'from the Shadowfell'.
So now demons, devils, angels, fey, shadvari - all become terms to denote where those creatures hail from. Race has nothing to do with it - a Baatezu could technically be a fey, or a Tanar'ri could be a Shadvari, or an angel can even be a devil (although I don't use angel the same way as D&D - I use that in lieu of 'celestial').
I'm starting to confuse myself - I've been re-reading Quale's fey thread and found some really good stuff I had forgotten about (a lot has happened to me RW since then) - I should be in my new house next week, and hopefully I will be able to start compiling stuff once again, and putting it all in some sort of cohesive format.
Even if the full scope of my website is never realized, I can at least detail the proto-cosmology and mythos for my world. I'm not sure my participation is appropriate for Candlekeep any longer, because I have diverged so much from canon with my theories. I need to learn more about Golarion's ancient history/mythology as well. Anyone have any recommendations where to start with that?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Feb 2012 06:07:51 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 04:49:22
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Markus, with your last post, you are getting closer to fitting your stuff within my cosmological framework.
I'm looking forward to being able to post it and see what you think. Just have to collect my thoughts enough to be able to hammer the thing down into a coherent narrative, preferably a readable one.
Don't hold your breath, though. I make no promises that it will see the light of day within the week or even within the month. Just that when I have a few hours, a glimmer of inspiration and nothing more pressing to do with either, I'll get it done. |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 06:18:48
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| So Elves were fey, for example, but now they're just Material Plane humanoids? Or...? |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 07:53:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My goal is to mash-up all the RW religions into one over-cosmology, not continue to support the older paradigm where every single religion existed unto itself.
The Great Wheel is a wonderful game-model, and applaud Gary Gygax and everyone else who contributed to it (including Ed), but while it is all-inclusive (and brilliantly so), the deific lore behind it exists in a vacuum. WHY would all these pantheons co-exist? On their own - as they were (basically) in our RW, they worked, but just dumped-together in one playground, not so much.
The Great Wheel is unstable. I grew up with it, and love it dearly, but it doesn't really work. All of those gods existing in the same set of planes would have gone to war with each other until only one survived. Gods are not good at compromise - read the myths. Their egos are two big for that.
You make a very good point. There is no real reason for multiple deities with identical or even similar portfolios if everything is interconnected, and divine ego is a very good reason for the opposite being true. I can think of a glaring RW example, which I'm sure I don't need to spell out.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So I establish a loose framework of 'archtypes', off of whom all others are just reflections. It works for me - I don't expect it to work for anyone else.
I'm liking the idea... Plato's cave allegory applies to the gods as well... very interesting.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm not so much trying to fill in the gaps in canon (as you are doing) - I've already tried going that route - but rather trying to expound and extrapolate on the lore, and build something new (and stable), without overly upsetting the old lore. I do not ignore canon, so much as 're-define' it.
And where the gods are concerned, as Ed and others (including yourself) have pointed out, there's the truth, and then there are mortal perceptions/conceptions of the truth. With this in mind, the whole pantheonic soap opera at the end of the GHotR could be a single mortal interpretation of any number of possibilities. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 18:48:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My money is on a 'real' skull.
Now - see if you can spot 'the body'.... I did.
I'm still looking... should I be looking in Realmspace, or on Toril? Come to think of it, maybe the mountains are called "the Spine of the World" for a reason...
I hadn't even thought of that!
Its not in Realmspace - its planetside, and rather large and obvious, once you realize something has very odd shape... and you ask Ed about it.
I will be asking him another related question in just a bit. I try not to be to obvious with my lines of inquiry, because the secrets are the best part of the Realms.
Tearfalls: The 'tears' (meteors) are not only a fairly common occurence on Toril (indicating quite a bit of 'rogue-matter' flying about Realmspace), but we also have lore indicating the Dragons arrive on worlds (definitely Abeir-Toril) via meteor-strike (their eggs, which are probably encased in rock or some other dense and shock-absorbinbg substance to protect them from impact). We also know that the Dragons are connected somehow to the tears of selune (although I would take that vingette in the GHotR as 'hear-say', since its written in the old-school style of 'unsubstantiated observer' - Kisonraathiisar could have just been going nuts at that point). That there is a connection I trust - the specifics, not so much (she herself could have been told an ancient dragon legend that was altered over time).
And then I realized something else the other day, which I thought was probably coincidence, but given Ed's genius, perhaps not. When I was re-reading the story about Elven creation the other day in the 2e Complete Book of Elves, I realized it stated that the Elves were created from the tears of the moon! 
The dragons believe they created Selune's Tears, and the Elves believe they were created from the moon's tears, and we know from the GHotR that the (sylvan) elves were sent to Toril (by the Fey) to battle the dragons!!! Thats a whole lot of coincidence, if you ask me.
Also, both the core draconic myth and the Torillian one sync-up very well, with the tale of two suns.
This all ties into my push for FR to not only be THE core world for D&D, but to become the 'meta-setting' it is setup to be. 'Core' used to be GH, but that was incorrect (sort of) - I now believe 'core' should pertain to that hypothetical 'First World' that got sundered (into the myriad worlds we now have). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 20:22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
So Elves were fey, for example, but now they're just Material Plane humanoids? Or...?
Elves are an excellent example of a planer race (fey) that have lost their plane-related abilities through separation from their native plane (the same happens to all fey-offshoots).
Here's my theory on all of that:
The Fey (LeShay, Sidhe, etc) lived on Abeir-Toril tens of thousands of years ago, along with the other Creatori (Creation Races). For whatever reason, the Fey didn't seem to 'play' with the other three (although they may have interacted with primitive humans). I do have some theories about that, as well as why they were all created (some sort of 'divine experiment'). I also believe humans were created in a primitive form, rather then fully formed as the other may have been - this is what sets humans apart. Because they were forced to evolve, they have developed a far greater adaptability then any other Creator Race (or their descendents).
I think Dragons and Giants came first (still toying with the idea Giants were the Human Creators), but they went to war with one-another and nearly destroyed the world, so 'the gods' were forced to do something about it (another line of thought for another time). Regardless, they were ruining the world built for the Creatori, and they were punished - not sure about giants (maybe they were 'dwindled'?), but the dragons were 'set in the stars' (locked away in space in cocoon-like chambers to sleep for ages). The World serpent would not allow 'his children' to be destroyed, so this was a compromise.
The creatori knew that they would return someday (in fact, giants still lived amongst them, but greatly 'deflated' in power), and developed various ways to hide from them in the event of that return. The Batrachi became shapeshifters, while the Sarrukh ruled in-secret hiding behind minion-races. The Aeriee built their cloud-nests, and remained both aloof and aloft. But the Fey learned to hide in plain site - their glamours (illusions) allowed them change their form and size, until this ability became so much a part of them that they became beings of pure mana (magical energy) - they became 'living illusions'. Such an existence required them to anchor themselves to the world, so that they wouldn't simply 'disperse' like so much smoke, and they found that anchor in their leader-turned goddess Danu, who merged her own essence with the land of Ladinion.
The humans also hid in plain site - small, unobtrusive and unassuming. Not really a threat to anyone, and staying beneath the notice of all the 'greater' beings around them. And they bred....
The War of Light & Darkness:
For whatever reason - every race gives a different one - the gods went to war. Some say the sun fought the darkness, and others say the world serpent tried to squeeze the life from the world, in vengeance for his banished children. Whatever set off the conflagration, soon everyone joined the fray, and it wasn't just deity vs primordial, but even deity against deity, and primordial against primordial. Any of these powers with a gripe against another took this opportunity to strike, and the world was plunged into 'the Dark Times'.
The World serpent (Asgorath?) may have been successful in draining the life from the world, because the being who was the embodiment of the firmament - Imaar (Ymir) - was slain. This was when the miseries entered the world - first death, and soon others followed. Only by sacrificing herself and merging with the dead Imaar (world) was Gaia able to keep the mortal races alive, for she was the spirit of life itself. All the powers realized their error, and the instigators were stopped - some destroyed outright, while others were banished throughout the cosmos. But the world was damaged beyond repair, and from its shattered remains new worlds were built... Crystal Spheres.
It was after the death of Imaar that the Great Wheel was first created, by Mytra (known in D&D as Jazirian) and Ahriman (also know in D&D as Asgorath). It is said that after murdering Imaar, Ahirman fled before the wrath of Mytra, who's purpose was to maintian the laws of the heavens (if using the Living Tribunal from Marvel comics as I do, she is one of the faces). Around and around the universe they ran, creating a great vortex that captured the released soul-stuff of both Imaar and Gaia. Thus was created the first and greatest artifact - the Great Wheel. The rest of the story is told (albeit poetically) in the Guide to Hell.
And so the sleeping dragons went, still trapped in their sustaining cocoons, as did the survivors of the Creatori, who's great civilizations were laid low.
Of Fey and Faerie
Except for the Sidhe (LeShay). They had discovered a new dimension - the Fæwylt - to which they fled. Some say their leader/goddess, an archfey named Danu, sacrificed herself to create this new home for them, tearing her own portion free from the Prime Material and forming Faerie. Whatever the case may be, the Fey left the sundered remains of the True World, severing their ties to it. Not all the Fey left, however; many merged their essences with geographic features to sustain them (linking themselves to Gaia's power), while still other, weaker Fey merged with the flora of the world.
With death now in the world, all future generations of the creators were cursed with mortality. The Fey named these new offspring 'El', which simply means 'children' in Hamarfae (High Sylvan). Some El grew to be powerful in their own right, such as the children of Titania and her bloodline (including her sister Aurilana). These powerful El became known as the s'El-darine (first among the children), and formed kingdoms of their own, and settled other parts of the Fæwylt on the borders of Faerie. As more of the El followed these leaders and left Titania's lands, they became know as the 'El-adrin', or 'wayward children'. The ones that stayed behind in Faerie were called El'ves, or 'loyal children'.
After many centuries living in isolation in the Fæwylt, the Queen of the Fey Titania - a great seer herself - foresaw the return of the dragons and the resurgence of giantkind in the Material World, and how this would start the conflict anew. Through her own auguries she knew that humanity must be protected from extermination, for they were destined to save the universe. She also saw the result of hubris from the El-adrin - that they would cause their own destruction by unwisely using the most powerful and dangerous of all Fey Magics (Elven High Magic) - the Temporacana. So she set a Geas upon her loyal children - the El'ves - to return to the material world, stop the dragons, and protect 'those who would come after'.
She also warned the dwarves - the eldritch allies of the Shidhe - that the dragons would return, and that the giants must be stopped from making war upon them again. So from their remote and deep strongholds in the highest mountains of all the worlds they emerged, and spread themselves out, awaiting the coming of their own ancient foes and former masters.
Thats It
I still have to solve the little glitch of the giants controlling the dwarves of old (my dverge), and the dwarves not being created until Imaar's (Ymir) death. There had to be a period time - at least several centuries - between the fall of Imaar (and the creation of death), and the WoL&D that destroyed the first sun. Only problem with that is that we have canon saying death formed during the WoL&D. The simplest solution is to say that mortal knowledge of these events (the stories, myths, and fables we hear) are not entirely accurate, and the the 'War of the Gods' were a series of battles over many centuries, and that the end result was the extinguishing of the sun and the birth of Mystra and her Weave. Ergo, death was created during the war, but not that particular 'last battle'.
Or it could be the concept of death was created by the destruction of the First World, but didn't achieve a sentience until after the sun was extinguished. Hmmmmm... that would actually tie-into the death god also being one of our sun gods...
What if Aumanator was 'the first sun', and it was his consciousness that merged with the concept and became the first death god? (something passed onto Jergal, Myrkul, Cyric, Kelemvor and gods-knows how many others). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Feb 2012 20:37:50 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 14:59:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Only problem with that is that we have canon saying death formed during the WoL&D.
Aside from the sidebar in 2e Faiths and Avatars, the history of Selune part in 3e Faiths and Pantheons and the Creation part of 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, where can I find canon on the War of Light and Darkness?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The simplest solution is to say that mortal knowledge of these events (the stories, myths, and fables we hear) are not entirely accurate, and the the 'War of the Gods' were a series of battles over many centuries, and that the end result was the extinguishing of the sun and the birth of Mystra and her Weave. Ergo, death was created during the war, but not that particular 'last battle'.
What canon I have seen on it suggests that The War of Light and Darkness is likely to have lasted millenia. After all, it covers all the time between the creation of the First Sun until the Creation of the Second Sun (and Mystryl). Thus, it fills the Blue Age and the Cold Night eras both.
The Cold Night could theoretically have been fairly brief. The Blue Age, however, has to have been fairly long. Consider, Ed states that 'Toril' could be said to be around 70,000 year old.
I see three possible interpretations for this.
It might refer to 'Toril since the Second Sun' and then the coming of the sun and the melting of the world ice until the final end of the Ice Age (essentially zero glaciation) occupy a period of ca 33,000 years (very possible).
It might refer to 'Toril since the First Sun', in which case the combined periods of the Melting, the Cold Night and the Blue Age are ca 33,000 years (also plausible).
Finally, it might refer to 'Any of the current physical compounds or elements that would later come to be called Toril, as they exist in proximity to one another'. In this case and only in this case, could the War of Light and Darkness have been comparatively brief. However, to justify calling the Blue Age an 'Age', I would avoid anything shorter than 5,000 years for it, which gives The War of Light and Darkness an absolute minimum of just over 5,000 years in duration.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Or it could be the concept of death was created by the destruction of the First World, but didn't achieve a sentience until after the sun was extinguished. Hmmmmm... that would actually tie-into the death god also being one of our sun gods...
In my cosmology, some gods existed originally as primitive consciousnesses (and yearnings), but anything anthropomorphic in shape or in personality, is a later addition that emerged with mortals (and a specific type of mortals, i.e. sapient ones). Basically, mortals, existing seperately from gods, had imagination and that imagination shaped the gods from primal forces into persons. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 16:21:04
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Pretty-much how I have it. First, I do not consider 'gods' and 'deities' the same thing. All deities are gods, but not all gods are deities; anything of exarch level and above I lump into the 'god' term (when I write).
In the very beginning, there was one, that immediately split in two, when the burgeoning sentience of the primordial sea (Ginnungagap, Elemental Maelstrom) expunged the chaos from its consciousness. This new sentience began to shape the universe around it, and with each shaping the concepts (Conceptuals, or 'Greater Ordials') were born. These 'Elder Gods' then created concepts of their own (Ordials), and those beings then created the final tier of the Cosmic hierarchy - the Prime Ordials. It was the purpose of Ordials to bring 'Order' to the new universe (hence, the name).
As the firmament (Imaar) was formed from the primal chaos, the four greater elements were distilled form the Maelstrom, and for each of these a new Ordial - a Prime Ordial - was created. Thus the Prime Material was created; at this time, there were no other planes, and all of these beings dwelt in this first World. The Ordials hit upon the idea of creating purely physical beings to live on the world, and some created the first races - the Exarchs*, whom modern Sages refer to as 'The Creator Races'. These races were fragile, but still immortal, for death had not yet come into the world. And they learned that through cooperation, they could achieve great things - a lesson the higher order beings had never bother with.
As these races grew to maturity, they took many shapes and forms, and as they built civilizations, their leaders and heroes became symbols. These symbols began to develop a power of their own: The racial consciousness of the Exarchs was able to achieve the same order of power as the Ordials, and create new divine beings, and thus the first pantheons were born. They embodied concepts (portfolios) important to the Exarchs, but not to the Ordials, and veneration began to shift away from those elder powers to these 'new gods'.
And so Jealousy (Phthonus) was born - the first of the Pandorani, the miseries of the world. The envy of the Primordials for these upstarts soon turned to hatred and desires of retribution, and from Phthonus sprang Nemesis, his sometimes-mate, whom mortals would come to know as Pale Night. Some of these new powers - called 'Deities' - made deals with the primordials, to share their power with them if they would help them destroy other deities. This appealed to the primordials, because they did not care to directly interact with the Creatori (first exarchs). The initial attacks came from the offspring of Asgorath (known to the creatori as 'The World Serpent'), one of the most ancient and powerful of the Greater Ordials, and soon the world was consumed in fire and destruction. This war spread from the surface of the world into the heavens, and as Exarch battled Exarch, and deity fought deity, so to did the Ordials confront each other on levels mortals today can't even comprehend. In the aftermath of all of this, the firmament - the physical world - died.
It was from the blood of the dying world the dverge (dwarves) were born - some say they were born from the last conscious thought of Imaar, as he struggled to repair the damage done to him by the Godswar. As he shuddered and issued his final breath, that breath took shape and became Abbadon, the angel of Death.
Abbadon is one of the 'four horsemen', and along with the other miseries (the 'Deadly Sins'), became the first of the Obyriths. These powers were born during the millenia-long Godswar that culminated in the long, Cold Night.
*The Creating Races - or 'Creatori' were the very first Exarchs.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Only problem with that is that we have canon saying death formed during the WoL&D.
Aside from the sidebar in 2e Faiths and Avatars, the history of Selune part in 3e Faiths and Pantheons and the Creation part of 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, where can I find canon on the War of Light and Darkness?
I usually only use the sidebar in F&A - I have never read the 4e material.
I am sure Gray Richardson or Kuje would be better qualified for this question.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Feb 2012 16:41:42 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 20:29:40
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I don't want to derail the conversation here, but I do have
to ask a question.
What is the desire to combine all facets of DD role playing
about. I don't understand why anyone would want (or even have
time for) trying to shoehorn everything into one overarching
(what's the best term) "streamlined multi-verse?" Just to
do the work of one ongoing campaign within one setting takes
hours of preparation, research, notetaking, reading: to say
nothing of the actual playing.
What drives all of you? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 20:57:03
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Insanity? 
Here goes - I was a GH DM, and I still love that world. I also have a great fondness for Mystara, and I currently love the Realms. Over the years, there have been many, many setting I liked, and I cherry-pick from all of them. I want everything to work together because of that. When I run my games, none of this ever becomes an issue; in fact, I never ran a campaign that ever got to the epic/planer level. This is a 'layer' the players never get to see, let alone have any inkling of.
However, I work-out all these inter-relationships (be it cosmological, ethnic, linguistic, historical enigmas, etc, etc) so that I know, in the background, what is going on, and what effects anything in-game have on the 'greater scheme of things'. In other words, I don't want to break my own continuity - if characters do something for Selune, I need to know she is the same goddess as Sehanine, so I know what effects that will have on the PCs down the line if they wind-up interacting with the Seldarine (or just Elves).
My games do not take place in a vacuum - the universe around the players is organic and constantly evolving. By establishing the 'ground rules' for everything from the beginning, I won't have to think about these things when I run a session, which would slow things down. I can react quicker, when all of this is already established background.
I also plan on publishing my own setting someday, and its damn good practice. I don't want to have a nonsensical mess like 4e was - continuity is key in reader-immersion. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Feb 2012 21:00:18 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 21:06:32
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For me? The truth?
You won't believe me.
I'll own up to a certain amount of intellectual curiousity, the desire to know 'why?' and even the desire to know 'why not?' (a much more interesting question).
This often drives me to ponder speculative scenarios and construct elaborate mental models.
But the real reason I apply this intellectual curiousity to this, instead of some more worthwhile endeavour or even in creating my own fantasy or science-fiction world?
Laziness.
I'm fundamentally lazy. I don't want to do what amounts to homework in order to play games. I don't like to have to prepare for gaming sessions. I'll happily read about something for eternity, but ask me to create a finished product, something approaching a blueprint for a gaming session, and I'll probably postpone it infinitely.
Fortunately, I'm fairly good at thinking on my feet. Thus, I ought to be able to get through gaming sessions without the need for boring preparation. On the other hand, there is no way that my spur-of-the-moment improvisations retain even a smidgen of coherence or come close to revealing a vibrant, authentic setting if I do not myself have a very clear idea of how this setting works, down to the last detail.
Thus, in order to free myself from the need to work out a myriad of small vexing details for every session, I instead wish to understand the setting I play in well enough in order so that I might remember the canon details and invent to fill the holes and have the whole thing fit together.
I can't do that if I don't know how the whole thing fits together. Fortunately, speculation and research is mostly reading and thinking, two things that don't count as 'boring work'. So I can do them. I just hope I'll be able to write down my conclusions, as that will count as 'work'. But otherwise, I'll never get commentary on them from others (who might have insights or knowledge that I lack) and there is a risk that I might forget some of it over time. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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My thoughts: Vikings, Imaskari, & other wierdness
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