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Ghostfinger
Acolyte
7 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Nov 2011 : 03:56:46
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We've heard wizards at lvl 30 carved conquered kingdoms (Telamont Tanthul) or capable of spectacularly level whole armies (The Simbul).
Then what are their warrior-counterpart of equal level capable of doing ?
Does a lvl 20 ranger kill pesky dragons for practice ?
Does a lvl 30 fighter cleave buildings in half ?
Does a lvl 40 barbarian murder a marching army stupid enough to trespass his homeland ?
On other hand, is there any FR novel/comic which have a high level warrior (25+) as its main villain ?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2011 : 04:20:04
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| In part it depends on edition, however no matter edition it depends on level of magic items provided to a Lord. A Wizard is one, and there is the factor that a Lord rules many as well. So the wizard gets the first or second division, the third might wound and the 4th might kill. In part power is based differently, a Wizard relies on use of magic, a Lord relies only in part on himself, as his power base is based on the number of people that will fight for him to protect the realm. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2011 : 06:51:18
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| I would think a great part of an epic warrior's capabilities depends on the armies he commands. Assuming, of course, that they generally avoid being spectacularly levelled by their wizard counterparts. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Ghostfinger
Acolyte
7 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 02:25:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Assuming, of course, that they generally avoid being spectacularly levelled by their wizard counterparts.
Does that make lvl 40 warrior-archvillains a joke compared to their spellcasting counterparts ? |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 02:58:12
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Two fighters of those levels come to mind that I certainly think give equivalent-level wizards a run for their money.
In the Cormyr novels, Azoun and his daughters (not even of those levels) had to battle the ghazneths, which I think they did as well as Vangerdahast did. The dragon ghazneth was one tough wyrm.
Gareth Dragonsbane and his band (including the monk Kane) wiped the floor with Zhengyi the witch king of Vaasa as well. If you consider the H1-H4 adventure series canon as well, even Tiamat and Orcus took a bit of a trouncing (plainly ridiculous in my book, but who am I to comment). |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 14:11:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ghostfinger
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Assuming, of course, that they generally avoid being spectacularly levelled by their wizard counterparts.
Does that make lvl 40 warrior-archvillains a joke compared to their spellcasting counterparts ?
Any high level wizard SHOULD be able to easily destroy a fighter of equal level. Of course, having a warrior and wizard square off in a "duel" seems silly |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 14:33:03
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We disagree. I feel any character should be given even odds when facing against another character of equal level, regardless of class. Of course the wizard would be a fool to allow the fighter to close into melee or missile range, just as much as the fighter would be a fool to not make the attempt.
The Realms are (contrary to anything the designers may claim) a very magic-heavy setting. So wizards have access to all sorts of exotic spells which would be unavailable or impossible in other settings, and characters of every class have access to all sorts of magical gear which augments their abilities. If a fighter gets a small army sometime around level 9, then it's not unreasonable to assume his troops will increase their experience, and numbers, and magical equipment by the time he's reached level 40. Military units in the Realms, the successful ones, also use spellcasters in their ranks. The fighter himself, along with his commanders, most likely has a few levels in spellcasting classes as well. Remember also that the wizard's got some sneaky tricks up his sleeve, so too does the fighter. Armies don't just march into the middle of the battlefield and wait for an enemy, they are kept active and informed by scouts and spies and constantly train in tactics useful against every opponent and every situation they can imagine; a unit of veterans or elites (led by a double-epic level 40 war commander) won't allow themselves to be slaughtered, no matter how potent the wizard's spells.
I feel that, all things being equal, if a level 40 fighter cannot account for himself against a level 40 wizard then the fault lies within imbalanced game design. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Nov 2011 14:38:34 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 15:21:11
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If you are saying the fighter gets to bring his army to the confrontation with the wizard then i suppose the wizard will bring his pet dragons, pit fiends, vampire generals, etc.
A 1 on 1 battle between a high level warrior and a high level wizard will result in the warrior being cooked well-done. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 18:02:29
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
A 1 on 1 battle between a high level warrior and a high level wizard will result in the warrior being cooked well-done.
Not necessarily. As has been pointed out previously, with any X vs. Y debate, much depends on the circumstances. For example, if this fight starts with the wizard only 10 feet from the warrior, the wizard's going to be eating a magic sword as soon as he opens his mouth to cast a spell. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 18:05:32
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Fighters aren't allowed to have pets and allies as well? We're talking about characters who are higher level than Elminster.
Again - if one class is stronger than another then it indicates bad game balance. A properly balanced game would make players hesitate indecisively about what to bring to battle. The fiction seems to prefer catering to the popular conception that wizards can lay waste to all obstacles. My preference would be more balance*. My gamers certainly favour warrior types over spellcasters.
* Well, actually I would prefer fewer gods, and consequently, fewer priests. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Nov 2011 18:07:57 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 21:40:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
A 1 on 1 battle between a high level warrior and a high level wizard will result in the warrior being cooked well-done.
Not necessarily. As has been pointed out previously, with any X vs. Y debate, much depends on the circumstances. For example, if this fight starts with the wizard only 10 feet from the warrior, the wizard's going to be eating a magic sword as soon as he opens his mouth to cast a spell.
Easily avoided with any number of magical items |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2011 : 21:54:53
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
A 1 on 1 battle between a high level warrior and a high level wizard will result in the warrior being cooked well-done.
Not necessarily. As has been pointed out previously, with any X vs. Y debate, much depends on the circumstances. For example, if this fight starts with the wizard only 10 feet from the warrior, the wizard's going to be eating a magic sword as soon as he opens his mouth to cast a spell.
Easily avoided with any number of magical items
And there you go: it depends on the circumstances, which would include what equipment each one has. |
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Ghostfinger
Acolyte
7 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 06:00:51
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So it comes down who can get into their killing range first ?
A Monk with its high spell-resistance and moving speed maybe ? |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 14:26:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
A 1 on 1 battle between a high level warrior and a high level wizard will result in the warrior being cooked well-done.
Not necessarily. As has been pointed out previously, with any X vs. Y debate, much depends on the circumstances. For example, if this fight starts with the wizard only 10 feet from the warrior, the wizard's going to be eating a magic sword as soon as he opens his mouth to cast a spell.
Easily avoided with any number of magical items
And there you go: it depends on the circumstances, which would include what equipment each one has.
Who is better at counter-acting magical items? Wizards or warriors? |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 18:18:39
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Who is better at counter-acting magical items? Wizards or warriors?
It still depends on equipment, Cloak of magic resistance, ring of spell turning. +5 Vorpal Sword, +20 vs. spell casters and so on. Boots of speed, there are so many items a wizard or a fighter can acquire that could effect which of the two could be best equipped to counter magic items. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 19:13:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Who is better at counter-acting magical items? Wizards or warriors?
It still depends on equipment, Cloak of magic resistance, ring of spell turning. +5 Vorpal Sword, +20 vs. spell casters and so on. Boots of speed, there are so many items a wizard or a fighter can acquire that could effect which of the two could be best equipped to counter magic items.
Indeed. And while the wizard is busy counter-acting the magical sword, the fighter steps up and stabs him in the throat with a non-magical dagger. And so on.
It's all situational.  |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 19:29:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Who is better at counter-acting magical items? Wizards or warriors?
It still depends on equipment, Cloak of magic resistance, ring of spell turning. +5 Vorpal Sword, +20 vs. spell casters and so on. Boots of speed, there are so many items a wizard or a fighter can acquire that could effect which of the two could be best equipped to counter magic items.
Indeed. And while the wizard is busy counter-acting the magical sword, the fighter steps up and stabs him in the throat with a non-magical dagger. And so on.
It's all situational.
You think a warrior would be able to walk up to Szass Tam, Elminster, or Telamont and stab them in the throat with a dagger? Fascinating |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 19:45:57
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Who is better at counter-acting magical items? Wizards or warriors?
It still depends on equipment, Cloak of magic resistance, ring of spell turning. +5 Vorpal Sword, +20 vs. spell casters and so on. Boots of speed, there are so many items a wizard or a fighter can acquire that could effect which of the two could be best equipped to counter magic items.
Indeed. And while the wizard is busy counter-acting the magical sword, the fighter steps up and stabs him in the throat with a non-magical dagger. And so on.
It's all situational.
You think a warrior would be able to walk up to Szass Tam, Elminster, or Telamont and stab them in the throat with a dagger? Fascinating
If they weren't ready for him to do so, why not? |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 20:27:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Who is better at counter-acting magical items? Wizards or warriors?
It still depends on equipment, Cloak of magic resistance, ring of spell turning. +5 Vorpal Sword, +20 vs. spell casters and so on. Boots of speed, there are so many items a wizard or a fighter can acquire that could effect which of the two could be best equipped to counter magic items.
Indeed. And while the wizard is busy counter-acting the magical sword, the fighter steps up and stabs him in the throat with a non-magical dagger. And so on.
It's all situational.
You think a warrior would be able to walk up to Szass Tam, Elminster, or Telamont and stab them in the throat with a dagger? Fascinating
If they weren't ready for him to do so, why not?
Normal weapons won't harm most archmages. Why would a genius archmage not be ready for a warrior? Even if they were totally caught by surprise they would still have contingencies in order. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 20:28:09
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Who is better at counter-acting magical items? Wizards or warriors?
It still depends on equipment, Cloak of magic resistance, ring of spell turning. +5 Vorpal Sword, +20 vs. spell casters and so on. Boots of speed, there are so many items a wizard or a fighter can acquire that could effect which of the two could be best equipped to counter magic items.
Indeed. And while the wizard is busy counter-acting the magical sword, the fighter steps up and stabs him in the throat with a non-magical dagger. And so on.
It's all situational.
You think a warrior would be able to walk up to Szass Tam, Elminster, or Telamont and stab them in the throat with a dagger? Fascinating
If they weren't ready for him to do so, why not?
Normal weapons won't harm most archmages. Why would a genius archmage not be ready for a warrior? Even if they were totally caught by surprise they would still have contingencies in order.
Unless of course you are a moron like Aznar Thrul |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 21:42:35
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Normal weapons won't harm most archmages. Why would a genius archmage not be ready for a warrior? Even if they were totally caught by surprise they would still have contingencies in order.
And where is it written that normal weapons won't hurt an archmage?
You think that even a genius could prepare for every single possible contingency? Archmages are people, too. People can be surprised, and people make mistakes. |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2011 : 06:57:03
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Normal weapons won't harm most archmages. Why would a genius archmage not be ready for a warrior? Even if they were totally caught by surprise they would still have contingencies in order.
What? I didn't know this? Who made this rule up? Unless there's a buff out there (which would expire), wizards can be killed by normal weapons.
As far as I know, the only way to determine if a wizard is really immune to a fighter at equivalent high level is through PvP.
Go PvP in 3.5 or 4e rules...let's see what a level 15 wizard can do to a level 15 fighter with a fort/ref/will of 30 above |
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
Edited by - creyzi4zb12 on 01 Dec 2011 07:09:39 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2011 : 08:23:56
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A level 29 fighter should be just as powerful as a level 29 wizard. (Although I guess it depends on which edition you'd be looking at?)
Although i'm not aware of any warriors that high level (Unless Shurrupak counts?) being that powerful, in theory, they should be. A really high level warrior would have abilities that would mirror the power of an archmage, would they not? However a warrior becomes powerful enough to single defeat a dragon could be "magical" in some way even if its not directly controlling magic. Like how a monk can (in the D&D universe at least) punch through stone, or whatever, a warrior would learn to tap into similar physical feats.
A high level warrior would also presumably have powerful weapons (and artifacts?) |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2011 : 11:37:25
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Some IMBA non spellcasters in the Realms
- Kane that "Monk of the Flower monastery thingy" from Road of the Patriarch was said to beat two full grown dragons bare-handed. It was said that he was able to trick the two dragons into breathing fire towards each other.
- There was this one dude I keep hearing about (forgot his name), some kind of gladiator of Thay who beat a dracolich using a stick. I think he was mentioned a lot of times in some threads on my time at boards1.wizards
- Shurrupak (I don't know if he counts since he has wizard levels on him), was said to walk in front of an army as everybody shivers in fear and can't do anything about it.
- If you're thinking about Drizzt and Entreri sagas, one guy stands out above all of them. Bruenor Battlehammer, that guy wrestled a PitFiend all on his own.
- Obould Many Arrows (with his armor/the only badass whom Drizzt was never able to defeat in melee) could take down an army of demons. And he once threw Gerti Orelsdottr (i don't know if that's the correct spelling) with ease. Gerti is considered epic BTW
- The protagonist from Netheril Trilogy "Sunbright" was a barbarian from the Ravens Clan, he defeated a Netherese archwizard who came back from hell (This hell-netherese was able to defeat one of the great Netheri-Archwizards Polaris (who commanded her very own floating city) with ease)..survived an encounter with Lord Karsus himself and continued the Ravens Clan Bloodline, if that's not epic then I don't know what is.
- The Cat Lord = it's kind of weird how you point this guy out. He's a level 37 rogue, and he's able to travel several planes and loves cats. He was considered semi-divine (god of cats?)
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orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
Edited by - creyzi4zb12 on 01 Dec 2011 11:55:25 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2011 : 14:54:02
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A feat I see that most tales of epic warriors share is the sheer tenaciousness and toughness that epic warriors have. Some even gain a form of invincibility that can only be overcome with intimate knowledge of the warriors weakness and in certain specific instances.
In Celtic-Irish legends the warrior Cu Chulainn was able to fight battles while repeatedly being stabbed, rended apart and pummeled by the spears, swords and cudgels of the enemy. He could fight without tiring; he once defeated an army by challenging and slaying every single commander the foes could bear in a proces that took months. He sometimes fought in a berserker rage that transformed him into a hideous monster. Cu Chulainn eventually succumbed to three legendary cursed spears wielded by Lugaid mac Con Roi, after he was weakened because he broke his vows to never eat dogmeat (he was bound by laws of hospitality and tricked into eating dog by an old hag). Cu Chulainn tied himself up on a stone to die standing, and his corpse terrified his foes for a time untill Lugaid cut off his head. His hero soul-energy exploded from his neck, cutting off Lugaids arm.
A level 20 warrior should be able to have gear that allows them to one shot critical hit a foe of fearsome reputation. They can successfully command armies against great odds. After level 30 a warrior should be breaking the laws of nature, and start to show a measure of godhood. They can single-handedly slay armies and come back from wounds that would instantly slay lesser beings. So a level 40 warrior in the realms should be nigh unkillable, and the results of killing him should be devastating in some way; as they are practically gods in mortal form. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2011 : 15:14:56
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| Another thing to consider ... not a lot of those squishy wizards can survive up to the epic levels without a big strong buddy to tank for them while they're growing up. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2011 : 16:10:40
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
A level 29 fighter should be just as powerful as a level 29 wizard. (Although I guess it depends on which edition you'd be looking at?)
Although i'm not aware of any warriors that high level (Unless Shurrupak counts?) being that powerful, in theory, they should be. A really high level warrior would have abilities that would mirror the power of an archmage, would they not? However a warrior becomes powerful enough to single defeat a dragon could be "magical" in some way even if its not directly controlling magic. Like how a monk can (in the D&D universe at least) punch through stone, or whatever, a warrior would learn to tap into similar physical feats.
A high level warrior would also presumably have powerful weapons (and artifacts?)
I agree with you about class balance, yet that's not really the case in editions prior to 4E. As Wooly stated, it largely depneds on circumstances, however those circumstances heavily favor the Wizard. The Wizard has various ways, through spells, to get the drop on the Fighter where the Fighter would need feats to compete. Take the wrong feats and he's done for.
What exactly is a Fighter supposed to do against a wizard who casts a Quickened spectral hand then Otto's Irrestable Dance? Lets say the Fighter gets to the wizard first, makes an incredible attack and drops the wizard 1/2 his total HP (requiring a DC 15 fort save or die). The Wizard's base Fort at this level is +6, which drops the precentage to almost half. Add in ability score modifiers, magical items, and Feats makes this rule practically null-and-void.
The wizard 5-ft steps backwards, casts the Quickend spectral hand then touches the fighter with irrestable dance and now the fighter is helpless for 1d4+1 rounds. So a minimum of 2 rounds the wizard can then use Time Stop to: buff himself up, cast summon spells, and terrain hindering spells. When the Time Stop ends, Summon monster attacks against the Fighter's AC (-4 penalty, -10 to Reflex saves, and provokes AoOs) while the wizard blasts him with Reflex-Save spells or whatever The spell has no saving throw yet is subject to Spell Resistance. Most Fighters don't have Spell Resistance Armor, and if it does, it's usually too low, which Wizards easily overcome.
It's these sorts of incidents (which can eaily be done by NPCs and monsters with class levels) that make the disparity between spellcasting and non-spellcasting classes so obvious
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2011 : 19:20:50
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| Of course, that assumes that the wizard has all of those spells memorized that day, and that he hasn't already cast them... |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2011 : 20:37:37
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I agree with Wooly, i've never played at a level higher than like... 15 (and i've only played 4th edition a couple of times, ever) so I don't really know what happens at high levels regarding mechanics but there a lot of "what ifs" you could say. And even if there are loopholes to do super powerful things in theory the character classes are supposed to be equal power wise? Bard, cleric, rogue, fighter, druid, etc.
If the wizard is prepared for a fight with a level 29 fighter, then the fighter should be able to come prepared to fight the powerful wizard too = P Shouldn't he potentially have possessions like Ryld Argith (from the war of the spider queen)'s dispelling sword? Potions? And decked out in a magical item for every possible thing he could wear? If you can say the wizard can neutralize the warrior with __________, then the warrior should be able to neutralize the wizard with something else just as easily. |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2011 : 00:32:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Of course, that assumes that the wizard has all of those spells memorized that day, and that he hasn't already cast them...
I believe that this is what makes a wizard most dangerous..If they do this, they can even take out non-spellcasters that have a higher level than them.
I remember reading in the Drizzt novels when Artemis Entreri said something about wizards being almost impossible to stop if they are prepared for a certain job. I even remember Entreri loosing to a wizard who burned an entire warehouse to battle against his stealth (Jarlaxle to the rescue!!) |
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
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Ghostfinger
Acolyte
7 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2011 : 07:15:21
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I've just remembered something called "Ki" which enable warriors do things that is not normally probable.
How is "Ki" explained in FR ? Is it considered magic or entirely something else ?
Think warriors can exploit this "Ki" things to have an equal ground to spell-casters ? |
That pillow... Where can I get one ? |
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How strong is lvl 20, 30 or 40 fighter ?
