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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Dec 2011 : 11:49:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ghostfinger
I've just remembered something called "Ki" which enable warriors do things that is not normally probable.
How is "Ki" explained in FR ? Is it considered magic or entirely something else ?
Think warriors can exploit this "Ki" things to have an equal ground to spell-casters ?
Grandmaster Kane = Read the novel Road of the Patriarch...he's one of those imba monks out there...maybe a munchkin since he can take out two dragons barehanded. |
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Edited by - creyzi4zb12 on 02 Dec 2011 11:49:45 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2011 : 12:36:55
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I think the problem in this discussion is that there is story telling mixed with game mechanics.
In a novel you can't go by pure game mechanics because this would make bad and boring stories. So there a monk can easily defeat dragons or a low level char kill a balor and so on.
But if you go by game mechanics this is a whole diffrent story and Diffan has the right of it as fighters suck in direct comparision to wizards. That doesn't mean playing a fighter sucks so, imho you can have a lot of fun with each class if you like it. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2011 : 14:21:27
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quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Of course, that assumes that the wizard has all of those spells memorized that day, and that he hasn't already cast them... 
I believe that this is what makes a wizard most dangerous..If they do this, they can even take out non-spellcasters that have a higher level than them.
I remember reading in the Drizzt novels when Artemis Entreri said something about wizards being almost impossible to stop if they are prepared for a certain job. I even remember Entreri loosing to a wizard who burned an entire warehouse to battle against his stealth (Jarlaxle to the rescue!!)
I believe that was in Servant of the Shard if memory serves |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2011 : 15:13:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Of course, that assumes that the wizard has all of those spells memorized that day, and that he hasn't already cast them...
Agreed, yet what I proposed the Wizard had available was directly taken from the PHB. Additionally, they're options I'm assuming every wizard should have prepared/known/on-hand to use. Quicken Spell isn't an "If" options but "When" during a wizard's career. Otto's Irrestible Dance and Spectral Hand are classic spells which should be in most wizard's prepared repitoire. But that's just two spells in conjunction with one another.
I'm not even mentioning Rune-Bombs (Explosive Runes x10 on one piece of paper and detonated) or the 0-level cantrip called Caltrops (Spell Compendium) in conjunction with the feat Cloudy Conjuration (Complete Mage) halts charging, immobilized enemies, and other nasty effects for a 0-level spell and a feat obtainable at 1st level. There are just so many variables that wizards are a venerable Tool-Box. Add in Scribe Scroll, a feat they gain for free, and they should have most of the spells I mentioned memorized, on a scroll, in a wand, or some other form (eternal wands, Summon Monster beads, staffs, rune-staffs, rods, yadda yadda).
Fighters just don't have the magical implements to compete with these aspects of spellcasting classes. What's worse, monster and villians are build using these rules, so it's perfectly acceptable for an Enemy spellcaster to have memorized half a dozen offensive spells, defensive spells, utility spells, with a number of others on-hand.
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I agree with Wooly, i've never played at a level higher than like... 15 (and i've only played 4th edition a couple of times, ever) so I don't really know what happens at high levels regarding mechanics but there a lot of "what ifs" you could say. And even if there are loopholes to do super powerful things in theory the character classes are supposed to be equal power wise? Bard, cleric, rogue, fighter, druid, etc.
I was speaking from a v3.5 context about the disparity, and I'm currently running a high-level campaign (3 players, party level 1s 17th) and I can say without a doubt that my character (fighter/tempest 17th) is out-gunned by the Sorcerer and Cleric in the group. I get, at most, 6 attacks with Two-Weapon Fighting and I have Wounding weapons (which deal Con-based damage) and I'm lucky to get in one round before either the monster is turned to stone, glass, disintegrated, or banished. Sometimes it has SR, and only the Soreress has Spell Penetration, so her spells hit more often but if they don't have SR, well then it's always a short encounter.
Along the lines of balance also lies in what a class can accomplish and what it can't based on the mechanics of said class. A fighter can fight, pretty well most of the time, but at high levels his life is depending on magical items to be any sort of threat at all. Mages, OTOH, have spells and the like to get them over these hurdles to be proactive in an adventure.
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
If the wizard is prepared for a fight with a level 29 fighter, then the fighter should be able to come prepared to fight the powerful wizard too = P Shouldn't he potentially have possessions like Ryld Argith (from the war of the spider queen)'s dispelling sword? Potions? And decked out in a magical item for every possible thing he could wear? If you can say the wizard can neutralize the warrior with __________, then the warrior should be able to neutralize the wizard with something else just as easily.
Problem here is that most wizards have a general idea on how to deal with Fighters, from the charging warrior types to the versatile types, to the unique/exotic-weapon types. Fighter, by contrast, had better have the correct feats and magical items to take on wizards of high level. And a wizard can adapt/change/switch their tactics on a whim (due to spells) where as a Fighter's versatility is built into his build (feat wise).
Now this is not exactly the same case in 4E. Fighter's ability to lock down enemies (via "marking") and the ability to make an OA (opportuinity attack) against any marked creature that shifts (5-ft move), moves their speed, or makes an attack that doesn't include the fighter is automatically getting attacked with no questions asked. Moreover, Fighters get a bonus to OAs in the form of their Wisdom modifier.
From the wizards side of things, they still have loads of versatility but their spells aren't as absolute. A spell that dazes, stuns, or renders creatures helpless are POWERFUL and change battles but they're not a definite guarentee of success and if they do hit, it's duration is only a few rounds at the most. Wizards spells also don't deal TONS of damage in the area of +10d6 in damage (ok, one does) but have lots of controll effects such as forced movement, creatures attacking their own allies, being knocked prone, stunned, dazed, penalties to AC-attacks-damage, etc.. |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2011 : 18:24:11
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I've always thought that wizards are supposed to loose in 1 on 1 fights in 4th edition. They're purpose was supposed to be crowd-control or environmental control instead of killing someone.
Sorcerers on the other hand just own in one on one.
Maybe I'm wrong tho' |
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Edited by - creyzi4zb12 on 02 Dec 2011 18:27:00 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2011 : 18:42:21
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quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
I've always thought that wizards are supposed to loose in 1 on 1 fights in 4th edition. They're purpose was supposed to be crowd-control or environmental control instead of killing someone.
Sorcerers on the other hand just own in one on one.
Maybe I'm wrong tho'
While 1-on-1 battles rarely happen (or come up) due to monster's being written different mechanically, I think there is a good chance for either class in a sort of situation. Neither the Fighter or Wizard is designed to be a super damage machine, focusing more on their own separate roles in the party. That being said, I think it largely depends on who goes first. The Fighter closes the gap and uses a Daily power right off the bat as a good chance of downing the wizard in 1 strike. The wizard can easily counter with the Shield spell or some other defensive mechanism available at 1st level. The wizard then could cast any Blast spell they know (which doesn't provoke an Opportunity Attack) such as Color Spray (blast 5) or even Hypnotism to make the Fighter walk away or attack itself with it's own weapon. Those are but two options they have to use in their aresnal.
Even as both character progress, at 25th level the Fighter has access to a great many powers, which might allow him to drop the wizard with an 25th daily power or two. But this again falls to initiative rather than spells and character build. Roughly speaking, it depends on how you play the character, and not what its limited to as far as resources are concerned. |
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How strong is lvl 20, 30 or 40 fighter ?
