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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2011 :  22:15:38  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

You want extremes? Try reading the Gor novels. I never read any (I find the subject-matter rather distasteful), but I had several friends that loved them.

I used to think the author - John Norman - had serious issues with women. This was when I was 16.

Nowadays I think there might have been something to his opinions, but life has left me a bit jaded (as if you couldn't tell ).


The first four books of the Gor series were actually rather good. I particularly liked #4, Nomads of Gor (a very well-written look at an entire Gorean culture). After that, Norman started hammering his weird psycho-gender theories nigh unto cole slaw in most succeeding books. Some came up for a breath of actual storyline, occasionally, but for the most part they all started resembling the ones that came before them.

I have never read any of the Lenfell books, but Rawn sounds as though she is of the Marion Zimmer Bradley school of world design, and Bradley simply puts me to sleep. Not as bad as Donaldson, but only just. In truth, I prefer a strong central female character to any other type, but matriarchal societies in such tales have never had any real logic behind them, to my way of thinking. Of course, that could just be because I am old and cranky, as well as completely reactionary in my thought processes.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2011 :  09:46:13  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

The dominance of females in Lenfell is deeply ingrained in its long history of wars and survival. Magic has something to do with it, too.

I would also like note that while gender roles are rather pervasive in the Exiles series, they should not be used as yardstick in judging the worth of the said saga.

Music enthusiasts may find the series desirable. IMHO, Rawn has done a good job of portraying bards and the beauty and magic of music.

Every beginning has an end.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1136 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2011 :  15:38:54  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I said afore, I can't penetrate the dense style of writing of Tad Williams. His protagonists seem like oafs to me.

Also I kinda got sick of Vance's protagonist in the novel Tchai, he was an unnecessarily competent hero in all things he did. I rooted for the antagonists every time I read one of the awful combat scenes in that novel. I never picked up any of his other works because of that book (I might be tempted nowadays though, because I read Tchai a long long time ago).

My campaign sketches

Druidic Groves

Creature Feature: Giant Spiders
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3008 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2011 :  15:47:06  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


The dominance of females in Lenfell is deeply ingrained in its long history of wars and survival. Magic has something to do with it, too.

I would also like note that while gender roles are rather pervasive in the Exiles series, they should not be used as yardstick in judging the worth of the said saga.

Music enthusiasts may find the series desirable. IMHO, Rawn has done a good job of portraying bards and the beauty and magic of music.



I haven't read any Tad Williams myself but always see his name on the "Top Fantasy Authors" lists. I will try one of his books soon and am curious to see what i think of it.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Check out my eBay store for great Realms/Dragonlance/Ravenloft/Dark Sun/etc series! http://stores.ebay.com/Remembered-Realms-and-Hobbies

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Mandarb Carai an Caldazar
Seeker

17 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2011 :  22:45:06  Show Profile Send Mandarb Carai an Caldazar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yes, he is a leper that immediately rapes an underage girl near the beginning. That's the hero.

It does get better - it was one of those "heroes we love to hate". I think the main guy from both SoT and WoT kinda fit that category for me - both of them really got on my nerves. They had that same quality I despised in Thomas Covenant - "I can juggle planets, but I am so insecure I am afraid of doing anything to help anybody". Puh-LEASE!

If I had that sort of firepower at my fingertips, I'd be b***h-slapping entire nations.

-snip-

And yes, we are supposed to feel sorry for Thomas Covenant, the poor angry leper, and Rand al'Thor & Richard Rahl, the motherless orphans, and even Paul Atreides (Dune), who is thrust into unpleasant circumstances and loses his family - all capable of ruling planets by their own personal power (in Paul's case a Galactic Empire).

So I can't honestly say I hate any author (even the Twilight gal) - but I could give a list a mile long of characters I can't stand (and yet, I continue to read about them).

And strangely, the 'most uber' character in any book I read - Nathan Brazil - was one of the most likable, simply because with all his power, he hardly did anything at all (and didn't expect anyone's pity). The dude literally had the ability to hit the 'off switch' on the universe itself. But he inspired pity anyway, on a much deeper level (picture Tom Hanks character at the end of The Green Mile, and magnify that a trillion-trillion fold).

And I suppose authors deserve our pity as well - I can think of one in-particular who's cash-cow character hangs like an albatross from their neck. Sometimes authors can't write what they want, but what their fans want, and that lack of creative self-direction may be the worst fate of all. Its like an actor who gets type-cast, and gets stuck in a never-ending cycle of the same crap they can't break free of.

Here's a related side-topic: Which is worse? Obscurity, or having your life be ruled by your own fame?



I don't know the other two characters but could you expand on your feelings about Rand and Paul? Feel sorry for them how? I'm not try to be sarcastic or anything, I actually sat for a minute with a blank look on my face.

Rand's character arc goes from country hick to cold and domineering tyrant who has to balance how many people he can kill with how many he needs in order to save existence from the Dark One to a fully-formed leader free of taints doing the best he can to save his world. Granted, that takes a REALLY long time in real-world years.

Paul, on the other hand, in the span of a single book, gets uprooted from his home, survives an assassination attemp, befriends and then leads the most savage and unrelenting fighters in the known galaxy and then uses them to steal him an empire. He makes his enemies pay for what they did without a whimper or a tear.

For Manetheren!
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2011 :  17:06:16  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I should have mentioned James Ward and Anne Brown, authors of Pools of Darkness. I don't think that book reached the editing department. I am not sure which is worse, seeing horribly predictable and endlessly boring characters, or a plot that's unbelievably bland.



Pools of Darkness (and other books about magical pools)is still infinitely better than the movie Hot Tub Time Machine

Didn't watch that movie. Looks nonsensical to me.

Carrie Bebris's Pool of Radiance is decent enough. No way can I call it great, but at least it didn't activate the anger-bombs in me.

Every beginning has an end.
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Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3053 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2011 :  02:18:23  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Other - J.K. Rowling. For bringing Harry Potter.

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3008 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2011 :  13:55:09  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair

Other - J.K. Rowling. For bringing Harry Potter.



I haven't read the Harry Potter books yet, but i do appreciate that Rowling will probably bring many young readers into the fantasy genre with her books.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Check out my eBay store for great Realms/Dragonlance/Ravenloft/Dark Sun/etc series! http://stores.ebay.com/Remembered-Realms-and-Hobbies

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2011 :  14:02:29  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I agree. Plus, those teenagers who used to think that fat novels are daunting reads, finally began to love them.

Every beginning has an end.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3008 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2011 :  14:26:41  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I agree. Plus, those teenagers who used to think that fat novels are daunting reads, finally began to love them.



Yep, for me the fat books are usually the best ones. Just finished a 900 page book, LOVED it.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Check out my eBay store for great Realms/Dragonlance/Ravenloft/Dark Sun/etc series! http://stores.ebay.com/Remembered-Realms-and-Hobbies

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Yoss
Learned Scribe

USA
259 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2011 :  15:16:09  Show Profile Send Yoss a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, the only reason I'd be inclined to hate was for going along with the movie deal. I've got no problem with the books (personally thought the last three were terrible, but I've found a way to blame the movies for that as well).
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2011 :  15:23:58  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

The movies helped boost the novels' sales, and vice versa. Everyone's a winner. While I don't particularly love the movie adaptations, I wouldn't call them terrible either. For all the inconsistencies of the movies, maybe we can place part of the blame on Rowling herself---she was offered to write the scripts for all the films, but she declined, saying that scriptwriting is not her forte, or something along that line.

Every beginning has an end.
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2012 :  11:50:58  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

Which wildy popular fantasy author do you despise, and for what reason?


Gosh! What a strong question. I don't despise any author. there are some whose writing I dislike, or I disagree with, but to despise them sounds like immaturity.

For example, I completely dislike what Lisa Smedman wrote for the Lady Penitent series. So much so, I stopped reading it. Yet I admire anyone who is a published author. It's hard work to write a novel, and edit it until you think it's ready. All in the hope that someone with disposable income will actually want to buy it.

"Despise - feel contempt or a deep repugnance for". Unless, the meaning of the word has changed.

Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness


Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.

Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 22 Jan 2012 11:52:28
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Varl
Learned Scribe

USA
242 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2012 :  17:32:25  Show Profile Send Varl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't despise any one author either. I despise some of the books they write. Take Zelazny's Great Book of Amber. Now, perhaps I didn't give it the chance it deserves, and I might try it again, but the moment the story started mentioning Greyhound stations, New York and Da Vinci paintings, Roger lost me real fast. 14 pages in fast, in fact. I was expecting sweeping fantasy, not a real world bio. Perhaps others that have read these novels can give me spoilers and encouragement for this series. At this point, a complete description of the series may be the only thing keeping me from taking it to the local used bookstore.

"We're not out of here in 10 minutes, we won't need no rockets to fly through space." -Parker, Alien.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3008 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2012 :  18:04:14  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn

quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

Which wildy popular fantasy author do you despise, and for what reason?


Gosh! What a strong question. I don't despise any author. there are some whose writing I dislike, or I disagree with, but to despise them sounds like immaturity.

For example, I completely dislike what Lisa Smedman wrote for the Lady Penitent series. So much so, I stopped reading it. Yet I admire anyone who is a published author. It's hard work to write a novel, and edit it until you think it's ready. All in the hope that someone with disposable income will actually want to buy it.

"Despise - feel contempt or a deep repugnance for". Unless, the meaning of the word has changed.



And when you buy the book and you think it's total crap? Does your admiration still continue? Alot of jobs are hard, many never get the recognition they deserve.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Check out my eBay store for great Realms/Dragonlance/Ravenloft/Dark Sun/etc series! http://stores.ebay.com/Remembered-Realms-and-Hobbies

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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LastStand
Learned Scribe

130 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2012 :  20:23:05  Show Profile Send LastStand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn

quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

Which wildy popular fantasy author do you despise, and for what reason?


Gosh! What a strong question. I don't despise any author. there are some whose writing I dislike, or I disagree with, but to despise them sounds like immaturity.

For example, I completely dislike what Lisa Smedman wrote for the Lady Penitent series. So much so, I stopped reading it. Yet I admire anyone who is a published author. It's hard work to write a novel, and edit it until you think it's ready. All in the hope that someone with disposable income will actually want to buy it.

"Despise - feel contempt or a deep repugnance for". Unless, the meaning of the word has changed.



And when you buy the book and you think it's total crap? Does your admiration still continue? Alot of jobs are hard, many never get the recognition they deserve.



Crappy book doesn't necessarily equal crappy author. I've read books that I found crappy but other books that I liked - both by the same author. I read a book and found it completely boring and crappy but if you look at the reviews many people loved it.
If they got the book published then they did enough right to convince a company to invest in their intelectual material.

That said there are some authors who's works I wouldn't even consider reading for one reason or another - a bad review or something that just didn't hit home with me or something that put me off in one of their books etc.

"Don't. The battlegrounds that you and I have returned from alive are too different."

~ Claymore ch106
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  01:31:29  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I could have voted "Other" for Dennis L. McKiernan and his "so-derivative-it-borders-on-plagiarism" world of Mithgar... even the name is derivative: Mithgar -> Midgardr -> Middle-Earth. But no, I chose Mr. Salvatore. I read the first two trilogies (Icewind Dale and the prequel trilogy), and when the seventh book came out, I very nearly lost interest in the Realms as a whole. But I chose to simply ignore RAS's books and carry on with the rest of the Realms, and I'm glad I did, despite events of the past three and a half years. And it was precisely those events - killing off piles of Ed's original Realms NPCs, but keeping Drizzt around - that earned 4E my undying loathing, to the point where I almost pulled my GHotR out of its cover and put it in a binder, just because of the cover art. No, I didn't actually do that, any more than I followed through on destroying my Cormyr/Shadowdale/Anauroch trilogy after WotC nullified the PCs' efforts backstage while in the same breath telling us to "make the PCs the heroes"... but I was very close. Honestly, I think RAS is a great author; he's just had the misfortune to create a character that the fanbois love to the extent that, even if the entire world of Toril crumbled around him, Drizzt would survive, just because the fanbois think he's the Realmsian Chuck Norris... and because Drizzt is a cash cow for WotC. [/rant] Personally, I hope that WotC allows RAS to kill Drizzt off in the transition to the new edition, to let him create some new memorable characters... but I won't hold my breath.

[Edit] Yes, I read the Cleric Quintet, and thoroughly enjoyed them. We just need more of that... variety... from Mr. Salvatore. [/edit]

[Edit 2] Heh... I couldn't have picked a better topic for post #1666... and this happened entirely by accident. [/edit]

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 23 Jan 2012 01:40:51
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  06:31:03  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LastStand

Crappy book doesn't necessarily equal crappy author. I've read books that I found crappy but other books that I liked - both by the same author.


When I read a crappy book, I (completely) avoid the other books by the same author. The only exception is if it's a first-time author. I think everyone's entitled to one (a first) failure.

Every beginning has an end.
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  09:22:34  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

And when you buy the book and you think it's total crap? Does your admiration still continue? Alot of jobs are hard, many never get the recognition they deserve.


That's a good question. I have read a few real stinkers, but I think there's a difference between the author and the book.

For example, if you watch a sport, a sportsman may have an awful day, make lots of mistakes and lose the game, but then the next time he'll play better.

Obviously, with a book the author's spent months writing it, and yet it may still strike the wrong note with me.

I think there's a difference between the process and the product here.

Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness


Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  12:10:40  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When I read a crappy book, I (completely) avoid the other books by the same author. The only exception is if it's a first-time author. I think everyone's entitled to one (a first) failure.
[/quote]
That is more or less my policy as well. But then if i end up really liking thier work then i make it a point to purchase every book written by them including the crappy ones.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3008 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  14:19:42  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn

quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

And when you buy the book and you think it's total crap? Does your admiration still continue? Alot of jobs are hard, many never get the recognition they deserve.


That's a good question. I have read a few real stinkers, but I think there's a difference between the author and the book.

For example, if you watch a sport, a sportsman may have an awful day, make lots of mistakes and lose the game, but then the next time he'll play better.

Obviously, with a book the author's spent months writing it, and yet it may still strike the wrong note with me.

I think there's a difference between the process and the product here.



Absolutely. Writing something which will be well received by others is extremely hard to do. I think most people on Candlekeep would love to be able to write their own fantasy book (Realms or otherwise), but few of us would actually be able to do so.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Check out my eBay store for great Realms/Dragonlance/Ravenloft/Dark Sun/etc series! http://stores.ebay.com/Remembered-Realms-and-Hobbies

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3008 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  14:22:59  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by LastStand

Crappy book doesn't necessarily equal crappy author. I've read books that I found crappy but other books that I liked - both by the same author.


When I read a crappy book, I (completely) avoid the other books by the same author. The only exception is if it's a first-time author. I think everyone's entitled to one (a first) failure.



Yep i usually do the same. I'll give a new author 50-100 pages to grab my attention. There are too many books i would like to read to be wasting my time on something i am not enjoying.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Check out my eBay store for great Realms/Dragonlance/Ravenloft/Dark Sun/etc series! http://stores.ebay.com/Remembered-Realms-and-Hobbies

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3008 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  14:26:20  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*In my opening post on this thread I did not literally mean despising the actual author, just their work. I am sure there are many terrible authors who are sweethearts who do charity work, recycle, and hug their mothers.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Check out my eBay store for great Realms/Dragonlance/Ravenloft/Dark Sun/etc series! http://stores.ebay.com/Remembered-Realms-and-Hobbies

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  14:40:59  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

Absolutely. Writing something which will be well received by others is extremely hard to do. I think most people on Candlekeep would love to be able to write their own fantasy book (Realms or otherwise), but few of us would actually be able to do so.



I have actually written a novel, but I fell at the 'getting an agent' hurdle. Most publishers aren't looking for new fiction at the moment, so although the agents I tried all said it was a good piece of writing, it was either not suited for the markets they work with or they know publishers are being cautious with new authors.

Hence my admiration for published authors. They've jumped a lot of hurdles to get to see their book on the shelf. So even if it's a stinker, it's still an achievement.

Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness


Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3008 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  15:39:10  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn

quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

Absolutely. Writing something which will be well received by others is extremely hard to do. I think most people on Candlekeep would love to be able to write their own fantasy book (Realms or otherwise), but few of us would actually be able to do so.



I have actually written a novel, but I fell at the 'getting an agent' hurdle. Most publishers aren't looking for new fiction at the moment, so although the agents I tried all said it was a good piece of writing, it was either not suited for the markets they work with or they know publishers are being cautious with new authors.

Hence my admiration for published authors. They've jumped a lot of hurdles to get to see their book on the shelf. So even if it's a stinker, it's still an achievement.



Awesome! Did you write a Realms novel, other fantasy novel, or another genre entirely? Don't give up on getting that story published. I would imagine that timing is a critical factor for an author getting their work published. A "NO" today doesn't mean it won't be a "YES" tomorrow.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Check out my eBay store for great Realms/Dragonlance/Ravenloft/Dark Sun/etc series! http://stores.ebay.com/Remembered-Realms-and-Hobbies

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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