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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31683 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  01:12:51  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Perhaps you could express yourself a little more respectfully? Your post comes across as rather insulting.



I think that Ed's shoulders are wide enough to take the comments on board.

Regardless of whether you think so, Wooly's point is valid.

We like to ensure an equal level of respect for all Realms authors who visit these halls. Please conduct yourself accordingly.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe

485 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  01:24:22  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Drizzt is another example of a tired creation. We have seen him grow stale because bob has explored every part of Drizzts life and mind. I love Drizzt, Bobs books were some of my first Realms reads and it actually pains me to see Drizzt reduced to the monotony that he has become.
I'm still amazed that Cadderly was killed off. One of the biggest (and dumbest) losses to the Realms novel line.
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe

485 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  01:32:01  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Perhaps you could express yourself a little more respectfully? Your post comes across as rather insulting.



I think that Ed's shoulders are wide enough to take the comments on board.

Regardless of whether you think so, Wooly's point is valid.

We like to ensure an equal level of respect for all Realms authors who visit these halls. Please conduct yourself accordingly.



The rebuke from Wooly was not aimed at myself.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31683 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  02:04:03  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aye.

I merely quoted your reply in order to reinforce the cautionary warning for any and all scribes who may think to follow a similar course.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 04 Nov 2011 02:04:49
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe

485 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  02:14:18  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Aye.

I merely quoted your reply in order to reinforce the cautionary warning for any and all scribes who may think to follow a similar course.



Fair enough.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29643 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  03:26:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Perhaps you could express yourself a little more respectfully? Your post comes across as rather insulting.



I think that Ed's shoulders are wide enough to take the comments on board. I myself agree with some of the points made. Elminster was interesting because he was powerful and always seemed to have the upper hand (in the end). We have already had El deprived of magic (shadow of avatar, book one) and to to see the same thing more or less repeated over many more books is imo boring.
I'm not the biggest fan of Eds writing style, but I love some of his characters. Without magic these characters are made rather pointless. This leaves me frustrated because all that is left is a series of 'capers' in and around the palace again and again. Hardly inspired writing imo.
I realise that Elminster is a cash cow for wotc but I feel that this series of books has been stretched too far. This latest Elminster yarn feels like it should really fit into a trilogy and not six books.



I myself am no fan of Ed's fiction, and I've said this more than once. Yet I've also stated my opinions by saying what elements didn't work for me, and pointing out that I have enjoyed some of his Realms fiction... The post I was responding to was insulting in that it was a flat-out bashing, particularly the statement that Ed's books are only published to retain the IP.

We are free to share all opinions, here. We just ask for some courtesy while doing so.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Nov 2011 03:27:51
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  05:43:19  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Ed's recent novels are quite disappointing. But I was done with my ranting long ago. And I moved on, I guess...

----

While I enjoy Melanie Rawn's worlds and some of her characters, I don't like it at all that she went to the extreme in emphasizing femisnism in her novels, especially in the Exiles Trilogy [which ended up being a duology].

Every beginning has an end.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3008 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  12:42:59  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Perhaps you could express yourself a little more respectfully? Your post comes across as rather insulting.



I think that Ed's shoulders are wide enough to take the comments on board.

Regardless of whether you think so, Wooly's point is valid.

We like to ensure an equal level of respect for all Realms authors who visit these halls. Please conduct yourself accordingly.



Even if we don't enjoy Ed's realms novels, I think most on here would agree that he is the man.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Check out my eBay store for great Realms/Dragonlance/Ravenloft/Dark Sun/etc series! http://stores.ebay.com/Remembered-Realms-and-Hobbies

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3008 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  12:46:35  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Ed's recent novels are quite disappointing. But I was done with my ranting long ago. And I moved on, I guess...

----

While I enjoy Melanie Rawn's worlds and some of her characters, I don't like it at all that she went to the extreme in emphasizing femisnism in her novels, especially in the Exiles Trilogy [which ended up being a duology].



How does Rawn handle the feminism in her books? Does she only use females for her main characters, does she blatantly show anger towards men, etc? I ask becuase many critics nailed Robert Newcomb for this in his fantasy series just because the protagonists were women. I still enjoyed the books though.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Check out my eBay store for great Realms/Dragonlance/Ravenloft/Dark Sun/etc series! http://stores.ebay.com/Remembered-Realms-and-Hobbies

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  15:45:28  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Ed's recent novels are quite disappointing. But I was done with my ranting long ago. And I moved on, I guess...

----

While I enjoy Melanie Rawn's worlds and some of her characters, I don't like it at all that she went to the extreme in emphasizing femisnism in her novels, especially in the Exiles Trilogy [which ended up being a duology].

How does Rawn handle the feminism in her books? Does she only use females for her main characters, does she blatantly show anger towards men, etc? I ask becuase many critics nailed Robert Newcomb for this in his fantasy series just because the protagonists were women. I still enjoyed the books though.

Her world, Lenfell, is extremely matriarchal. Only females get to be elected in the high offices. They get to choose their husbands; the men just wait. In festivals and brothels, the stripteasers are men only.

Don't let it discourage you, though. Her style is vivid and at times poetic. The way she gives depth to her characters is impressive.

Every beginning has an end.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3008 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  16:25:03  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Ed's recent novels are quite disappointing. But I was done with my ranting long ago. And I moved on, I guess...

----

While I enjoy Melanie Rawn's worlds and some of her characters, I don't like it at all that she went to the extreme in emphasizing femisnism in her novels, especially in the Exiles Trilogy [which ended up being a duology].

How does Rawn handle the feminism in her books? Does she only use females for her main characters, does she blatantly show anger towards men, etc? I ask becuase many critics nailed Robert Newcomb for this in his fantasy series just because the protagonists were women. I still enjoyed the books though.

Her world, Lenfell, is extremely matriarchal. Only females get to be elected in the high offices. They get to choose their husbands; the men just wait. In festivals and brothels, the stripteasers are men only.

Don't let it discourage you, though. Her style is vivid and at times poetic. The way she gives depth to her characters is impressive.



Sounds a little like Menzoberranzan

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Check out my eBay store for great Realms/Dragonlance/Ravenloft/Dark Sun/etc series! http://stores.ebay.com/Remembered-Realms-and-Hobbies

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  16:37:14  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Worse, because their female mages are more powerful than drow priestesses.

Every beginning has an end.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13111 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  18:52:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You want extremes? Try reading the Gor novels. I never read any (I find the subject-matter rather distasteful), but I had several friends that loved them.

I used to think the author - John Norman - had serious issues with women. This was when I was 16.

Nowadays I think there might have been something to his opinions, but life has left me a bit jaded (as if you couldn't tell ).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1754 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  20:24:10  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tarnsman of Gor books are pretty decent, they are one my inspirations for Numeria. I'd never read Rawn, even reading the description is sickening.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13111 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  20:33:11  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmph... being who I am, I couldn't help but Google up a map of the place (Gor).

It bears a STRIKING resemblance to northern Golarion!

I just put it side-by-side with it (from the map pack I linked in the other thread), and if you just swap-out the center forest for sea... damn close.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2011 20:35:56
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1754 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  20:37:59  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It does look a bit like Varisia, the Vosk Delta and the Mushfens.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  22:53:36  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Gor? That's a colloquial Cebuano word for stinky and despicable old man.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 04 Nov 2011 22:54:25
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Sousana
Seeker

19 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2011 :  04:51:43  Show Profile Send Sousana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmmm. This is adifficult call. There are so many good authors that have produced truly bad books. Iguess swearing in church is proper: Ed is an author I am very careful about. I loved Stormlight, Spellfire, Cloak of Shadows... but Elminster in Hell is, to me, unreadable.I guess it feels like he isn't even trying. Still, he is a great world builder and I am so grateful to him, so "hate" is not a word I'd use.

Some have brought up authors that have written very good books here: G R R Martin (yes, his later Westeros books do not match up to the first), Richard Baker (I loved the Last mythal, and City of Ravens and the Shadow stone were amazing), Christie Golden (her Ravenloft books are beautiful)... but there is one author Ijust can't stomach: Stephen Donaldson. When your protagonist debuts with raping a girl who helps him, and then feels sorry for himself about it... I slammed the book down and never looked back.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3008 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2011 :  12:32:46  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sousana

Hmmmm. This is adifficult call. There are so many good authors that have produced truly bad books. Iguess swearing in church is proper: Ed is an author I am very careful about. I loved Stormlight, Spellfire, Cloak of Shadows... but Elminster in Hell is, to me, unreadable.I guess it feels like he isn't even trying. Still, he is a great world builder and I am so grateful to him, so "hate" is not a word I'd use.

Some have brought up authors that have written very good books here: G R R Martin (yes, his later Westeros books do not match up to the first), Richard Baker (I loved the Last mythal, and City of Ravens and the Shadow stone were amazing), Christie Golden (her Ravenloft books are beautiful)... but there is one author Ijust can't stomach: Stephen Donaldson. When your protagonist debuts with raping a girl who helps him, and then feels sorry for himself about it... I slammed the book down and never looked back.



Sure sounds like a weird way to begin telling a story. Haven't read any Donaldson myself

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Check out my eBay store for great Realms/Dragonlance/Ravenloft/Dark Sun/etc series! http://stores.ebay.com/Remembered-Realms-and-Hobbies

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2011 :  15:32:02  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think part of the problem in this thread is that different readers want different things in books. Several posters have lamented the quality of Ed's recent books, or denounced them as "boring."
Whereas I, because I grew tired of constant frantic action in fantasy books without subplots, diversions, and much detailing of supporting cast and characters, think Ed's books are getting better and better.
ELMINSTER IN HELL was singled out by many mainstream book reviewers as a standout book that shone amid what they saw as a lot of generic cr*p in gaming fantasy fiction.
It's all just personal preferences and opinion, folks. Not qualifying yours, so it's stated as empirical fact and "correct," becomes a problem for other posters who disagree with you.
Just to politely provide an example, a certain frequent poster here at the Keep often dismisses books as "boring" to him. I've already read enough of these titles to know that what bores him, I'm likely to enjoy. See? Different strokes...
Not that there aren't some universals to telling an effective story (I enjoy a great fight scene a lot more of the author has already made me care about the participants, so the stakes mean something), but many of the posts I read at the Keep suggest to me that many posters think their own preferences define univeral definitions of quality.
BB
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2011 :  18:07:38  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

quote:
Originally posted by Sousana
... but there is one author Ijust can't stomach: Stephen Donaldson. When your protagonist debuts with raping a girl who helps him, and then feels sorry for himself about it... I slammed the book down and never looked back.

Sure sounds like a weird way to begin telling a story. Haven't read any Donaldson myself

You know, I haven't met anyone [in person] who actually likes any of Donaldson's books. Even those friends of mine who are quite eclectic readers and even devour weird and very unconventional novels couldn't stomach Donaldson at all.

Every beginning has an end.
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Sousana
Seeker

19 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2011 :  06:10:51  Show Profile Send Sousana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have met two. Strange people. :-)
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3008 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2011 :  13:44:12  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

quote:
Originally posted by Sousana
... but there is one author Ijust can't stomach: Stephen Donaldson. When your protagonist debuts with raping a girl who helps him, and then feels sorry for himself about it... I slammed the book down and never looked back.

Sure sounds like a weird way to begin telling a story. Haven't read any Donaldson myself

You know, I haven't met anyone [in person] who actually likes any of Donaldson's books. Even those friends of mine who are quite eclectic readers and even devour weird and very unconventional novels couldn't stomach Donaldson at all.



Same here. I haven't read any Donaldson myself, and probably never will.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Check out my eBay store for great Realms/Dragonlance/Ravenloft/Dark Sun/etc series! http://stores.ebay.com/Remembered-Realms-and-Hobbies

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2011 :  15:56:05  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I should have mentioned James Ward and Anne Brown, authors of Pools of Darkness. I don't think that book reached the editing department. I am not sure which is worse, seeing horribly predictable and endlessly boring characters, or a plot that's unbelievably bland.

Every beginning has an end.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3008 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2011 :  21:48:48  Show Profile  Visit Artemas Entreri's Homepage Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I should have mentioned James Ward and Anne Brown, authors of Pools of Darkness. I don't think that book reached the editing department. I am not sure which is worse, seeing horribly predictable and endlessly boring characters, or a plot that's unbelievably bland.



Pools of Darkness (and other books about magical pools)is still infinitely better than the movie Hot Tub Time Machine

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Check out my eBay store for great Realms/Dragonlance/Ravenloft/Dark Sun/etc series! http://stores.ebay.com/Remembered-Realms-and-Hobbies

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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