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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 15:06:16
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Why would I want to transplant a background?
Characters often define the story. A tsunami swallowing an entire nation [empty of people because everyone has already gone on an exodus to another country] might be fascinating to watch. But the story would be far more interesting if we get to see some people stranded or unwilling to leave. [Which by the way, reminds me of the cho-ja in Feist's Wrath of a Mad God.]
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 15:17:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When you can travel to other worlds, planes, cities on mountaintops at altitudes ABOVE the atmosphere (Majipoor) and beneath the sea, learn spells at the local mage school and exchange blows with a dragon or two, you let me know, okay? 
As a DM of 30+ years, I find I am given creative 'seeds' far more often by the backdrop then by the characters - different strokes for different folks.
Not that I don't enjoy a book about interesting characters - who wouldn't? But when the setting is very cookie-cutter it serves little purpose, and those same characters can be dropped into any setting, which defeats the purpose of the fantasy genre, IMHO.
Drizzt would be at home alongside the three Musketeers, as a Nubian transplanted to Europe and raised as a gentleman, with a pair of rather unique antique swords. Luke Skywalker would be fine in the Realms, learning from his goblin (Blue or Xvart) master the art of psionics, wielding his flaming sword. Indiana Jones or the guy from The Mummy would do just fine dumped into Mulhorand, or just about anyplace else with ruins (meaning, ANY fantasy RPG setting). And Sherlock Holmes would have no problem living in Watereep solving "The Shadowmastiff of the Baskerhorns".
Characters can be transplanted - background, not so much. In the fantasy & scify genre, its the great world-builders who get the accolades.
I think you need BOTH memorable characters & an imaginative setting to have a sucessful fantasy story. Having only one or the other doesn't work for me. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 15:28:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In the fantasy & scify genre, its the great world-builders who get the accolades.
Says who? They surely won't get those "accolades" from me!
I can live with a "mediocre" setting but with a bunch of fantastic characters. Weeks comes to mind. As I noted before, I'm not impressed with his world-building. [Didn't Time say Weeks's world-building is "weak?"] But he's great at crafting interesting characters, even though he ended up killing them off. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 15:45:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In the fantasy & scify genre, its the great world-builders who get the accolades.
Says who? They surely won't get those "accolades" from me!
I can live with a "mediocre" setting but with a bunch of fantastic characters. Weeks comes to mind. As I noted before, I'm not impressed with his world-building. [Didn't Time say Weeks's world-building is "weak?"] But he's great at crafting interesting characters, even though he ended up killing them off.
Yeah Weeks' worlds don't inspire vivid scenes in my mind, but his characters are fantastic and real. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 19:08:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And strangely, the 'most uber' character in any book I read - Nathan Brazil - was one of the most likable, simply because with all his power, he hardly did anything at all (and didn't expect anyone's pity). The dude literally had the ability to hit the 'off switch' on the universe itself. But he inspired pity anyway, on a much deeper level (picture Tom Hanks character at the end of The Green Mile, and magnify that a trillion-trillion fold).
This is an excellent example. Chalker's only lemon, to me, was the Changewinds series. But any and all things Nathan Brazil are worth the read. There was even a Midnight at the Well of Souls role-playing game, once upon a time. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 12:33:55
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| after I started GM-ing world-building become more important, still not more than the story or characters |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 04:21:57
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As one actor said, "Eden without Adam and Eve is boring." And I would add the snake to that. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 12:32:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
As one actor said, "Eden without Adam and Eve is boring." And I would add the snake to that.
Yep, and without the fruit and trees and such they would just be hanging around in the nude.  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 13:57:21
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Sounds like the 60's.
And Adam was VERY boring - a regular "goody-two-shoes", and Eve wasn't much better. Without the snake, no-one would ever bother read that story. Now Lilith, there was a fascinating character - too bad they leave her out of most versions.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Nov 2011 13:59:36 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 14:30:12
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Perhaps that should be rephrased to: "Eden without Adam and Eve is far more boring." A book with a wonderful setting but bland characters is ultimately...boring. Now how much more if the setting itself is also boring. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Huerin Illance
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 22:09:56
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ED GREENWOOD
Hands down! The latest book, "Bury Elminster Deep" is awful. I offer this as my opinion, but the worst part about it is that "Bury Elminster Deep" is allegedly the type of novel that the author *HIMSELF* doesn't even like!
quote:
Orignally posted by The Hooded One
P.S. Merrith, right on! Ed and I both dislike fantasy books where novices on a quest unerringly find their way across a continent to where they have to get, and various characters "just happen" to show up at the right place and time to intercept foes or join allies. Life is full of wandering around and making mistakes and rushing around.
Thente, the movement in BED is nothing like any Realms session I've ever played in (or Ed has DM'd) - - and how El and Storm can (and can't) use magic, and how it's changing, is fully explained (here and there, during the story) in EMD and BED: it's NOT like 4th edition game rules, for either of them.
The entire novel is predicated on the main character, (Elminster) having a vision, or rather racing off to Cormyr after he states, "I have foreseen it." I mean, really?
"Hello, I am the protagonist of this novel. I have foreseen events from the future, so I'm gonna go and, you know, do novel stuff..."
Not to mention all the awful coincidences, characters just bumping into each other in the Halls of Obarskyr or along the Promenade... just bleh!!
Anyway, I really don't think Ed Greenwood would be published by WotC if they didn't have a contract to publish a book by him ad infinitum... or at least as long as WotC wants to maintain the Realms IP. I really hope that Ed quits nancying around and really, truly, kills this god-awful character off, once and for all.
Then Buries Him Deep.
EDIT: And what about all the sexual tension between Elminster and Storm? Elminster was her foster-father! Just weird... |
Edited by - Huerin Illance on 03 Nov 2011 22:12:39 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 23:14:17
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| Perhaps you could express yourself a little more respectfully? Your post comes across as rather insulting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 00:02:52
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Hrm, I don't HATE many writers, though Meyer comes to mind. but I voted RAS- NOT because I hate him or his books, but because he managed to do one thing I thought would NEVER happen. He killed Chewie. Yes, I am referring to Chewbacca of SW fame. but after getting to the part where the lovable wookie dies (sorry for spoilers for those who have not read the book) in Vector Prime, I could NOT finish the book. I was just too mad, depressed, sad, and shocked. I can handle the deaths of favorite characters, but that one just punched me in the gut for some reason.
And for those who voted Anne McCafferey- ruind dragons?! REALLY?! One must realize that the dragons in her Pern series are (A- not fantasy-based, but pure Sci-Fi(they were created through genetic manipulation of a native species) and (B- bear no resemblance to D&D dragons. Their colors were gender-based, and had nothing to do with breath-weapons, "alignment" or anything else D&D dragons are noted for. They were more like "real-life" dragons, in that their abilities were logical and fully explained biologically. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 01:00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Perhaps you could express yourself a little more respectfully? Your post comes across as rather insulting.
I think that Ed's shoulders are wide enough to take the comments on board. I myself agree with some of the points made. Elminster was interesting because he was powerful and always seemed to have the upper hand (in the end). We have already had El deprived of magic (shadow of avatar, book one) and to to see the same thing more or less repeated over many more books is imo boring.
I'm not the biggest fan of Eds writing style, but I love some of his characters. Without magic these characters are made rather pointless. This leaves me frustrated because all that is left is a series of 'capers' in and around the palace again and again. Hardly inspired writing imo.
I realise that Elminster is a cash cow for wotc but I feel that this series of books has been stretched too far. This latest Elminster yarn feels like it should really fit into a trilogy and not six books. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 01:00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Hrm, I don't HATE many writers, though Meyer comes to mind. but I voted RAS- NOT because I hate him or his books, but because he managed to do one thing I thought would NEVER happen. He killed Chewie. Yes, I am referring to Chewbacca of SW fame. but after getting to the part where the lovable wookie dies (sorry for spoilers for those who have not read the book) in Vector Prime, I could NOT finish the book. I was just too mad, depressed, sad, and shocked. I can handle the deaths of favorite characters, but that one just punched me in the gut for some reason.
And for those who voted Anne McCafferey- ruind dragons?! REALLY?! One must realize that the dragons in her Pern series are (A- not fantasy-based, but pure Sci-Fi(they were created through genetic manipulation of a native species) and (B- bear no resemblance to D&D dragons. Their colors were gender-based, and had nothing to do with breath-weapons, "alignment" or anything else D&D dragons are noted for. They were more like "real-life" dragons, in that their abilities were logical and fully explained biologically.
Readers DO get attached to the way they picture dragons in their minds |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 01:12:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Perhaps you could express yourself a little more respectfully? Your post comes across as rather insulting.
I think that Ed's shoulders are wide enough to take the comments on board.
Regardless of whether you think so, Wooly's point is valid.
We like to ensure an equal level of respect for all Realms authors who visit these halls. Please conduct yourself accordingly. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 01:24:22
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Drizzt is another example of a tired creation. We have seen him grow stale because bob has explored every part of Drizzts life and mind. I love Drizzt, Bobs books were some of my first Realms reads and it actually pains me to see Drizzt reduced to the monotony that he has become.
I'm still amazed that Cadderly was killed off. One of the biggest (and dumbest) losses to the Realms novel line. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 01:32:01
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Perhaps you could express yourself a little more respectfully? Your post comes across as rather insulting.
I think that Ed's shoulders are wide enough to take the comments on board.
Regardless of whether you think so, Wooly's point is valid.
We like to ensure an equal level of respect for all Realms authors who visit these halls. Please conduct yourself accordingly.
The rebuke from Wooly was not aimed at myself. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 02:04:03
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Aye.
I merely quoted your reply in order to reinforce the cautionary warning for any and all scribes who may think to follow a similar course. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 04 Nov 2011 02:04:49 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 02:14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Aye.
I merely quoted your reply in order to reinforce the cautionary warning for any and all scribes who may think to follow a similar course.
Fair enough. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 03:26:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Perhaps you could express yourself a little more respectfully? Your post comes across as rather insulting.
I think that Ed's shoulders are wide enough to take the comments on board. I myself agree with some of the points made. Elminster was interesting because he was powerful and always seemed to have the upper hand (in the end). We have already had El deprived of magic (shadow of avatar, book one) and to to see the same thing more or less repeated over many more books is imo boring.
I'm not the biggest fan of Eds writing style, but I love some of his characters. Without magic these characters are made rather pointless. This leaves me frustrated because all that is left is a series of 'capers' in and around the palace again and again. Hardly inspired writing imo.
I realise that Elminster is a cash cow for wotc but I feel that this series of books has been stretched too far. This latest Elminster yarn feels like it should really fit into a trilogy and not six books.
I myself am no fan of Ed's fiction, and I've said this more than once. Yet I've also stated my opinions by saying what elements didn't work for me, and pointing out that I have enjoyed some of his Realms fiction... The post I was responding to was insulting in that it was a flat-out bashing, particularly the statement that Ed's books are only published to retain the IP.
We are free to share all opinions, here. We just ask for some courtesy while doing so. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Nov 2011 03:27:51 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 05:43:19
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Ed's recent novels are quite disappointing. But I was done with my ranting long ago. And I moved on, I guess...
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While I enjoy Melanie Rawn's worlds and some of her characters, I don't like it at all that she went to the extreme in emphasizing femisnism in her novels, especially in the Exiles Trilogy [which ended up being a duology]. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 12:42:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Perhaps you could express yourself a little more respectfully? Your post comes across as rather insulting.
I think that Ed's shoulders are wide enough to take the comments on board.
Regardless of whether you think so, Wooly's point is valid.
We like to ensure an equal level of respect for all Realms authors who visit these halls. Please conduct yourself accordingly.
Even if we don't enjoy Ed's realms novels, I think most on here would agree that he is the man.  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 12:46:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Ed's recent novels are quite disappointing. But I was done with my ranting long ago. And I moved on, I guess...
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While I enjoy Melanie Rawn's worlds and some of her characters, I don't like it at all that she went to the extreme in emphasizing femisnism in her novels, especially in the Exiles Trilogy [which ended up being a duology].
How does Rawn handle the feminism in her books? Does she only use females for her main characters, does she blatantly show anger towards men, etc? I ask becuase many critics nailed Robert Newcomb for this in his fantasy series just because the protagonists were women. I still enjoyed the books though. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 15:45:28
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Ed's recent novels are quite disappointing. But I was done with my ranting long ago. And I moved on, I guess...
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While I enjoy Melanie Rawn's worlds and some of her characters, I don't like it at all that she went to the extreme in emphasizing femisnism in her novels, especially in the Exiles Trilogy [which ended up being a duology].
How does Rawn handle the feminism in her books? Does she only use females for her main characters, does she blatantly show anger towards men, etc? I ask becuase many critics nailed Robert Newcomb for this in his fantasy series just because the protagonists were women. I still enjoyed the books though.
Her world, Lenfell, is extremely matriarchal. Only females get to be elected in the high offices. They get to choose their husbands; the men just wait. In festivals and brothels, the stripteasers are men only.
Don't let it discourage you, though. Her style is vivid and at times poetic. The way she gives depth to her characters is impressive. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 16:25:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Ed's recent novels are quite disappointing. But I was done with my ranting long ago. And I moved on, I guess...
----
While I enjoy Melanie Rawn's worlds and some of her characters, I don't like it at all that she went to the extreme in emphasizing femisnism in her novels, especially in the Exiles Trilogy [which ended up being a duology].
How does Rawn handle the feminism in her books? Does she only use females for her main characters, does she blatantly show anger towards men, etc? I ask becuase many critics nailed Robert Newcomb for this in his fantasy series just because the protagonists were women. I still enjoyed the books though.
Her world, Lenfell, is extremely matriarchal. Only females get to be elected in the high offices. They get to choose their husbands; the men just wait. In festivals and brothels, the stripteasers are men only.
Don't let it discourage you, though. Her style is vivid and at times poetic. The way she gives depth to her characters is impressive.
Sounds a little like Menzoberranzan |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 16:37:14
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Worse, because their female mages are more powerful than drow priestesses. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 18:52:31
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You want extremes? Try reading the Gor novels. I never read any (I find the subject-matter rather distasteful), but I had several friends that loved them.
I used to think the author - John Norman - had serious issues with women. This was when I was 16.
Nowadays I think there might have been something to his opinions, but life has left me a bit jaded (as if you couldn't tell ). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 20:24:10
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| Tarnsman of Gor books are pretty decent, they are one my inspirations for Numeria. I'd never read Rawn, even reading the description is sickening. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 20:33:11
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Hmph... being who I am, I couldn't help but Google up a map of the place (Gor).
It bears a STRIKING resemblance to northern Golarion! 
I just put it side-by-side with it (from the map pack I linked in the other thread), and if you just swap-out the center forest for sea... damn close. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2011 20:35:56 |
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Topic |
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Authors We Love to Hate
