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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1755 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2011 :  12:41:11  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Quale

Stephen Donaldson - I don't care at all for his characters.



Agreed. Now that you reminded me, he's supposed to be on my list, too.

quote:
Originally posted by Quale

Feist - killed off his interesting characters

I don't dislike an author just because he needed to kill off his characters, even if said characters are my favorites---provided that the cause of their deaths was sufficiently reasonable and that their deaths were handled very well. Yes, Feist killed off some of his interesting characters, but for me, that's hardly reason enough to dislike his books. Besides, he keeps some alive, like Pug and Tomas.



well he did not manage to replace them with equally interesting ones, Nakor, Bobby, von Darkmoor, Arutha, Jimmy etc., Pug was pushed in the background, and Tomas's son
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14551 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2011 :  14:14:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Quale

Stephen Donaldson - I don't care at all for his characters.



Agreed. Now that you reminded me, he's supposed to be on my list, too.
I don't hate him - I enjoyed his first trilogy. The second one left me - and everyone else - flat. His characters weren't exactly all that likable (except for the giant), but his world was very interesting; not your typical cookie-cutter fantasy setting. He should have never written more novels about The Land - I get the idea he used up all his good ideas in the first three.

Perfect example of over-milking the cow.

Did I just hear someone say Drizzt.......

I'd have to put Stephenie Meyer at the top of my 'Most Despised' list - what she did to vampires borders on the criminal.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Oct 2011 14:17:27
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3076 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2011 :  14:24:05  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Quale

Stephen Donaldson - I don't care at all for his characters.



Agreed. Now that you reminded me, he's supposed to be on my list, too.
I don't hate him - I enjoyed his first trilogy. The second one left me - and everyone else - flat. His characters weren't exactly all that likable (except for the giant), but his world was very interesting; not your typical cookie-cutter fantasy setting. He should have never written more novels about The Land - I get the idea he used up all his good ideas in the first three.

Perfect example of over-milking the cow.

Did I just hear someone say Drizzt.......

I'd have to put Stephenie Meyer at the top of my 'Most Despised' list - what she did to vampires borders on the criminal.



You don't like shiny vampires?

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe

USA
520 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2011 :  14:52:59  Show Profile  Visit GRYPHON's Homepage Send GRYPHON a Private Message  Reply with Quote
G. R. R. Martin...
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3076 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2011 :  15:09:27  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GRYPHON

G. R. R. Martin...



Care to elaborate?

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2011 :  16:28:03  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Quale

Stephen Donaldson - I don't care at all for his characters.



Agreed. Now that you reminded me, he's supposed to be on my list, too.
I don't hate him - I enjoyed his first trilogy. The second one left me - and everyone else - flat. His characters weren't exactly all that likable (except for the giant), but his world was very interesting; not your typical cookie-cutter fantasy setting. He should have never written more novels about The Land - I get the idea he used up all his good ideas in the first three.

Perfect example of over-milking the cow.

Did I just hear someone say Drizzt.......

I'd have to put Stephenie Meyer at the top of my 'Most Despised' list - what she did to vampires borders on the criminal.

Reading Donaldson was like reading the most boring parts of RW history (like why Jose Rizal chose to have such ridiculous coiffure).

There's more to the Twilight Saga than sparkles. You have to read all four books to know what I mean.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2011 :  16:37:58  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quale

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Quale

Stephen Donaldson - I don't care at all for his characters.



Agreed. Now that you reminded me, he's supposed to be on my list, too.

quote:
Originally posted by Quale

Feist - killed off his interesting characters

I don't dislike an author just because he needed to kill off his characters, even if said characters are my favorites---provided that the cause of their deaths was sufficiently reasonable and that their deaths were handled very well. Yes, Feist killed off some of his interesting characters, but for me, that's hardly reason enough to dislike his books. Besides, he keeps some alive, like Pug and Tomas.



well he did not manage to replace them with equally interesting ones, Nakor, Bobby, von Darkmoor, Arutha, Jimmy etc., Pug was pushed in the background, and Tomas's son

Nakor is alive, so is Miranda. But altered, as their "spirits" now inhabit demons.

Jimmy. Well, how do you think should Ray make him last more than a century? By some elixirs that Nakor gave Erik? By making him "god-touched" like Nakor? It was sad seeing him and Gamina die, but at least it was handled very well---they died noble deaths. Same goes to Nakor, Miranda, Erik, Boric, and several others. As for Jimmy's descendants... Dash himself said that it was difficult to fill in the shoes of his grandfather---whose accomplishments were almost as great as Pug's. But he tried, and that's what mattered. He may not be as interesting as Jimmy, but he was never boring either.

Every beginning has an end.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14551 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2011 :  16:41:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I couldn't get more then 2/3 of the way through the first movie before I HAD to turn it off. I have suffered through some truly horrid crap just to see the end (many made-for-Scify movies come to mind), but I couldn't even get to the end of Twilight.

Playing Baseball in a thunderstorm because they are just too cool to play under normal circumstances... REALLY?!

Vampires don't play fun mortal games, they EAT PEOPLE. Ever since Buffy the Vampire-Layer came around, everyone thinks vamps should be 'cute'. Watch Nosferatu (the original) - that's a vamp.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Oct 2011 00:32:02
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2011 :  17:11:53  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I couldn't get more then 2/3 of the way through the first movie before I HAD to turn it off. I have suffered through some truly horrid crap just to see the end (many made-for-Scify movies come to mind), but I couldn't even get to the end of Twilight.


The movies hardly bear any resemblance to the novels. For one, if you read the books, you'd be spared from the not-so-good acting of Kristen and Robert.

I like how the Volturi are portrayed in the films, though---specially Aro and Jane [Dakota]. In the books, particularly the fourth, the depths of their characters are revealed.

Every beginning has an end.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2011 :  19:09:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'd have to put Stephenie Meyer at the top of my 'Most Despised' list - what she did to vampires borders on the criminal.



I won't touch the books or the movies, but I'm not going to come down on her for what she did to vampires -- she just built on the existing "sexy vampire" trope that's been going on for a while now. Sexy vampires and vampires that are just humans with some tragic circumstances were established in fiction long before Stephanie Meyer came along.

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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3532 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2011 :  20:38:07  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'd have to put Stephenie Meyer at the top of my 'Most Despised' list - what she did to vampires borders on the criminal.



I won't touch the books or the movies, but I'm not going to come down on her for what she did to vampires -- she just built on the existing "sexy vampire" trope that's been going on for a while now. Sexy vampires and vampires that are just humans with some tragic circumstances were established in fiction long before Stephanie Meyer came along.




Blame Anne Rice

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2011 :  21:58:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'd have to put Stephenie Meyer at the top of my 'Most Despised' list - what she did to vampires borders on the criminal.



I won't touch the books or the movies, but I'm not going to come down on her for what she did to vampires -- she just built on the existing "sexy vampire" trope that's been going on for a while now. Sexy vampires and vampires that are just humans with some tragic circumstances were established in fiction long before Stephanie Meyer came along.




Blame Anne Rice




I'm not familiar enough with the sexy vampire genre to know whether or not Anne Rice is to blame. I'd expect the genre was around before she set pen to paper, but it's undeniable that she gave it a boost.

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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
358 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2011 :  00:42:53  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hate authors that write the cheesy romance novels my wife reads. Any author that writes fantasy/sci-fi or horror only furthers the hobby (hobbies) I love so much even if I don't prefer their particular style.

I have to say, I got a kick out of the Family Guy episode though, where Stephen King was trying to pitch a book where the new creature was...a killer lamp. Kind of hit the nail on the head.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14551 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2011 :  00:55:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm not familiar enough with the sexy vampire genre to know whether or not Anne Rice is to blame. I'd expect the genre was around before she set pen to paper, but it's undeniable that she gave it a boost.
Anne Rice did not make them silly. They may have been 'sexy', but it was a dark sexy. The movie didn't do the stories justice (the little girl vampire is much more monsterish when you don't actually see cute Kirsten Dunst). Probably the worst casting ever - the Lestat part was originally written with Rutger Hauer in mind, but he was too old by the time it was made. The only thing scarey about Tom Cruise is his underwear dance.

'Cute' and 'Sexy' aren't the same thing - I think Buffy's boy-toy Angel ruined them first, if I had to make that call. Spike was pretty cool (and dark enough), and even the boy-vamps in Lost Boys were pretty sinister.

Didn't like Angel, but I like him as Booth (until this season of Bones - gag me).

Anyhow. "too shiny to go out in the sun" is just too far removed from the original for me to even consider them vamps. I've seen aliens-as-vamps that were more 'normal'. The only scene I enjoyed was when he was describing himself as the 'perfect predator' (in which he even makes light of the fact his abilities are so over-the-top).

I am trying to think of something else I couldn't finish - there are only a few books on that list (I don't borrow books - I buy them, and I usually insist on finishing them if I've spent good money). However, just because I didn't like them wouldn't make me hate the author (a point I made earlier). Some of the books on that short list are rather popular (like Shannara, or Gormenghast), so I know its just me in that case. On the other hand, I've never read any of Stephanie Meyer's books, so perhaps I am being a bit harsh.

(who? ME?)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Oct 2011 00:57:44
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2011 :  02:39:54  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'd have to put Stephenie Meyer at the top of my 'Most Despised' list - what she did to vampires borders on the criminal.



I won't touch the books or the movies, but I'm not going to come down on her for what she did to vampires -- she just built on the existing "sexy vampire" trope that's been going on for a while now. Sexy vampires and vampires that are just humans with some tragic circumstances were established in fiction long before Stephanie Meyer came along.

I'm not much into vampire-fiction, aside from vampiric characters cast in RPG-related novels, like Strahd in RAVENLOFT -- a derivation of the timeless character of Dracula himself. So I'm not all that familiar with the whole "sexy vampire" trope.

My favourite vampire-portrayal, for the most part, remains Count Orlok, from the 1922 Nosferatu: A Symphony of Terror film.

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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3076 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2011 :  04:14:30  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm not familiar enough with the sexy vampire genre to know whether or not Anne Rice is to blame. I'd expect the genre was around before she set pen to paper, but it's undeniable that she gave it a boost.
Anne Rice did not make them silly. They may have been 'sexy', but it was a dark sexy. The movie didn't do the stories justice (the little girl vampire is much more monsterish when you don't actually see cute Kirsten Dunst). Probably the worst casting ever - the Lestat part was originally written with Rutger Hauer in mind, but he was too old by the time it was made. The only thing scarey about Tom Cruise is his underwear dance.

'Cute' and 'Sexy' aren't the same thing - I think Buffy's boy-toy Angel ruined them first, if I had to make that call. Spike was pretty cool (and dark enough), and even the boy-vamps in Lost Boys were pretty sinister.

Didn't like Angel, but I like him as Booth (until this season of Bones - gag me).

Anyhow. "too shiny to go out in the sun" is just too far removed from the original for me to even consider them vamps. I've seen aliens-as-vamps that were more 'normal'. The only scene I enjoyed was when he was describing himself as the 'perfect predator' (in which he even makes light of the fact his abilities are so over-the-top).

I am trying to think of something else I couldn't finish - there are only a few books on that list (I don't borrow books - I buy them, and I usually insist on finishing them if I've spent good money). However, just because I didn't like them wouldn't make me hate the author (a point I made earlier). Some of the books on that short list are rather popular (like Shannara, or Gormenghast), so I know its just me in that case. On the other hand, I've never read any of Stephanie Meyer's books, so perhaps I am being a bit harsh.

(who? ME?)



I thought Interview with the Vampire, and the Vampire Lestat were great...but the rest of those books did not interest me

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Marc
Senior Scribe

618 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2011 :  17:36:06  Show Profile Send Marc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
None, in fact I never read a disappointing SFF book. A Dance with Dragons was the closest. You have to ask around before reading.

.
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2011 :  18:39:52  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

Reading Donaldson was like reading the most boring parts of RW history (like why Jose Rizal chose to have such ridiculous coiffure).


I disagree. I am a RW history buff, and unlike Donaldson, it has never put me to sleep. I read Lord Fouls's Bane, and made it about halfway through The Illearth War before I put the book down, never to pick it up again. Donaldson's style is dry, tedious and...well, boring.

I voted 'Other', needless to say.

- OMH

Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 29 Oct 2011 18:41:04
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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe

Canada
107 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2011 :  01:01:45  Show Profile Send Nilus Reynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Watch Nosferatu (the original) - that's a vamp.



Agreed.

And that is the way they should still be portrayed, in my opinion at least.

Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P21 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D)
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe

324 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2011 :  09:28:51  Show Profile  Visit MalariaMoon's Homepage Send MalariaMoon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There isn't really anyone I really dislike on the list. I've become somewhat disillusioned with R.A Salvatore over the past decade, but I can't deny the debt I owe him - The Crystal Shard got me hooked on the Realms, D&D and reading in general. I don't want to name names here, but I have been very disillusioned with some of some of the more minor Realms authors, and I've found others to be overhyped. However I probably need to accept I come to Realms novels with a lot of expectations based on my own conception of the Realms, which is a hard thing for any author to overcome.

I'm actually quite a fan of Tolkien's sedate and ornate writing style, it forces me to slow and savour the text a little (although I was never able to get into the Silmarillion). One sage mentioned Robin Hobb's tendency to put her main characters through a hell of a lot of pain and suffering, and that's a fair point, but for me she's of the best authors I've read, in any genre.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6215 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2011 :  15:44:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

Reading Donaldson was like reading the most boring parts of RW history (like why Jose Rizal chose to have such ridiculous coiffure).


I disagree. I am a RW history buff, and unlike Donaldson, it has never put me to sleep. I read Lord Fouls's Bane, and made it about halfway through The Illearth War before I put the book down, never to pick it up again. Donaldson's style is dry, tedious and...well, boring.

I voted 'Other', needless to say.

- OMH



Is that the one where the guy is like a paraplegic or maybe some other rotting disease to start the series? I remember trying to start reading that like 20 years ago and couldn't make it past the first 50 pages. Several people have told me it gets better, but I just never went back.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14551 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2011 :  17:08:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You also have to take into account that we read different books for different reasons, and some of us only read them for one particular reason (tragically limiting their reading experience, IMHO).

For instance, I do not read Tolkien, Donaldson, or even Greenwood for their "exciting, non-stop action", I read them because all three are amazing world-builders (and The Land might not be all that amazing by today's standards, but back in its day it was very different then most of the Middle-Earth knock-offs that were being done). It is the world itself which draws me in - like when I read Jack Vance, or Robert Silverberg - the action is secondary to what I am experiencing.

Now, when you get a great story-teller coupled with an amazing world-builder, then you have a scify classic. Very few can do that - Edgar Rice Burroughs may be the greatest example (he built entire solar systems, not just worlds). On the other end of the spectrum you have what are usually classified as 'Low Fantasy', or 'Sword & Sorcery', like Robert Howard, who gives you little backdrop, except where necessary to the story-line. I would also have to classify RAS in that category.

Both types have their place in the genre, and there are as many permutations (and hybrids) of the two styles as there are authors.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Oct 2011 17:08:48
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2011 :  01:27:12  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

Reading Donaldson was like reading the most boring parts of RW history (like why Jose Rizal chose to have such ridiculous coiffure).


I disagree. I am a RW history buff, and unlike Donaldson, it has never put me to sleep. I read Lord Fouls's Bane, and made it about halfway through The Illearth War before I put the book down, never to pick it up again. Donaldson's style is dry, tedious and...well, boring.

I voted 'Other', needless to say.

- OMH



Is that the one where the guy is like a paraplegic or maybe some other rotting disease to start the series? I remember trying to start reading that like 20 years ago and couldn't make it past the first 50 pages. Several people have told me it gets better, but I just never went back.

Yes, that's it. I discouraged three of my friends from reading it. They didn't believe me, and much to their sorrow, they regretted not listening to me. [Their reviews were way more vehement than mine.]

Every beginning has an end.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14551 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2011 :  03:40:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, he is a leper that immediately rapes an underage girl near the beginning. That's the hero.

It does get better - it was one of those "heroes we love to hate". I think the main guy from both SoT and WoT kinda fit that category for me - both of them really got on my nerves. They had that same quality I despised in Thomas Covenant - "I can juggle planets, but I am so insecure I am afraid of doing anything to help anybody". Puh-LEASE!

If I had that sort of firepower at my fingertips, I'd be b***h-slapping entire nations.

Elric and Drizzt also fall into that category, but to a far lesser extent (their abilities are more martial, not uber-class magic with no real limitations). Drizzt uses magical items but doesn't 'do' magic, and Elric has several vulnerabilities and his magic many restrictions, but they also like to make folks feel sorry for them, even though they are god-like compared to the people around them. How the hell am I supposed to pity some guy who takes on entire armies single-handed (and both of those dark elves did). Should I feel bad they can't fight two armies at the same time?

And yes, we are supposed to feel sorry for Thomas Covenant, the poor angry leper, and Rand al'Thor & Richard Rahl, the motherless orphans, and even Paul Atreides (Dune), who is thrust into unpleasant circumstances and loses his family - all capable of ruling planets by their own personal power (in Paul's case a Galactic Empire).

So I can't honestly say I hate any author (even the Twilight gal) - but I could give a list a mile long of characters I can't stand (and yet, I continue to read about them).

And strangely, the 'most uber' character in any book I read - Nathan Brazil - was one of the most likable, simply because with all his power, he hardly did anything at all (and didn't expect anyone's pity). The dude literally had the ability to hit the 'off switch' on the universe itself. But he inspired pity anyway, on a much deeper level (picture Tom Hanks character at the end of The Green Mile, and magnify that a trillion-trillion fold).

And I suppose authors deserve our pity as well - I can think of one in-particular who's cash-cow character hangs like an albatross from their neck. Sometimes authors can't write what they want, but what their fans want, and that lack of creative self-direction may be the worst fate of all. Its like an actor who gets type-cast, and gets stuck in a never-ending cycle of the same crap they can't break free of.

Here's a related side-topic: Which is worse? Obscurity, or having your life be ruled by your own fame?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2909 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2011 :  04:28:01  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Other. The chick that gave us "sparkly" vampires!

.

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
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