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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 05:24:10
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or wish ti age as a creature of a longer living race instead of wishing yourself into a dragon/ nymph/ whatever.
so the spell did age you.... didnt know of the spell back then anyway as my 2nd ed books were and are fr and a few of the complete what not books |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 05:47:13
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| In all fairness, I don't know the particular spell descriptors for 3E and beyond. Not that it matters which edition you play, since the point of my example was just to illustrate that there are drawbacks and limitations to the method. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 05:54:03
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in all unfairness
when players and designers say immortal
do they mean immortal or invulnerable?
superman or Macleod?
macleod had fast regen and would not die of old age as superman would age slowly and not be physically harmed.
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 07:16:28
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There are other paths to immortality, as utilized in my Shadowbane series, but they're no less costly ... Or terrible.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 07:34:31
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| sfdragon - only your players can answer your question. Or better yet, refer to an authority which can properly define immortal and invulnerable, they're different words with different meanings and usage (not your fault if your players don't understand that). |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 08:18:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Easy access.
I wouldn't quite say it's that easy. Or, at the very least, the costs involved in obtaining the secrets of lichdom shouldn't make it so easy to obtain.
We know some fiends can offer the secrets of lichdom. And while that may be somewhat easier for a summoner mage-type, the price asked of the mage by the fiend, I'd imagine, wouldn't be "cheap."
I'm thinking, though, that Alisttair has a point: compared to some other methods of answering Queen's musical question, lichdom is relatively common.
Maybe.
Though, I still come back to Velsharoon's process of attaining lichdom before ascending to become a demi-god, which doesn't exactly suggest it is all that common. [Unless, of course, this particular lichdom process was specifically tailored to the concept of divine ascension.] Perhaps that factor influenced what position Velsharoon would occupy in the pantheon, rather that what we're told in Powers & Pantheons -- that it was a decision by Ao to create a balance against Kelemvor. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 08:57:19
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
if one would want to achieve immortality with a wish spell, you'd have to just wish to stop aging both in body and mind.
how many use amgic acctually do that way.. none, for all their int, they are dumb.
Only if you presume you are intelligent enough (or wise enough which fits better to this case imho) to forsee all meanings and side effects your wish could have.
Many made this mistake and paid horridly 
Not aging in you mind could also mean that you don't gain any new experience or wisdom for example.
Not aging in body could mean that you automatically draw life from people arround you to sustain your youth... |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 27 Sep 2011 08:57:59 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 09:51:27
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| I always thought demons/devils/whatever you call them are immortal. So why not use some nifty spells to transform yourself into one? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 11:08:56
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| Novels and Lore seem to avoid the completly broken Polymorph spell line |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 13:53:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
I always thought demons/devils/whatever you call them are immortal. So why not use some nifty spells to transform yourself into one?
'Cause it's boring? Seriously, though, I guess it's because being a devil just makes somebody "one of the many," while becoming a lich makes him "one of the very few." Rarity often connotes preciousness and wonder. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 14:48:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Easy access.
Easy? If you screw up the intricate process of becoming a lich then you die. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1266 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 14:59:40
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| I don't have it on me now, but Volo's Guide to All Things Magical has a few "Elixir" recipes/descriptions including Halastar's that prolong life and remove many years of ageing per drink but have potential for negative effects if you are unlucky as well. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 15:00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Easy access.
Easy? If you screw up the intricate process of becoming a lich then you die.
Wizards who failed at such attempt would prefer death than having their souls splinter into a million insignificant motes, feeling the worst kind of pain at every splintering. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 27 Sep 2011 19:26:01 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 19:10:20
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| Transform into elans |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 21:37:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Easy access.
I wouldn't quite say it's that easy. Or, at the very least, the costs involved in obtaining the secrets of lichdom shouldn't make it so easy to obtain.
We know some fiends can offer the secrets of lichdom. And while that may be somewhat easier for a summoner mage-type, the price asked of the mage by the fiend, I'd imagine, wouldn't be "cheap."
I'm thinking, though, that Alisttair has a point: compared to some other methods of answering Queen's musical question, lichdom is relatively common.
Yeah exactly. To be more precise, its not easy access, but easier access, as it is more common. Still expensive and difficult, but even if you are looking for a tutor (if there is such a thing as Lich tutoring), they are more common if you are willing to sacrifice your humanity. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2011 : 22:12:28
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| Well, all Epic Destinies in 4ed have 'Immortality' subheading on how the ED makes the player immortal (while also removing the character from play after an epic ending quest). With Archlich being an ED for Arcane users in "Arcane Power". |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 01:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Easy access.
I wouldn't quite say it's that easy. Or, at the very least, the costs involved in obtaining the secrets of lichdom shouldn't make it so easy to obtain.
We know some fiends can offer the secrets of lichdom. And while that may be somewhat easier for a summoner mage-type, the price asked of the mage by the fiend, I'd imagine, wouldn't be "cheap."
I'm thinking, though, that Alisttair has a point: compared to some other methods of answering Queen's musical question, lichdom is relatively common.
Yeah exactly. To be more precise, its not easy access, but easier access, as it is more common. Still expensive and difficult, but even if you are looking for a tutor (if there is such a thing as Lich tutoring), they are more common if you are willing to sacrifice your humanity.
I suppose I'm just more comfortable with the idea that lichdom is a rare and mysterious process that only the most desperate of wizards will seek out.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 02:04:49
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I suppose I'm just more comfortable with the idea that lichdom is a rare and mysterious process that only the most desperate of wizards will seek out.
[/quote]
I agree that it is a rare and mysterious process. I would just think that it is more common than other practices of immortality in the realms (other than being a Chosen of course ) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 02:47:41
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I thought becoming a lich needed careful, extensive preparations. But I read a novel, I think it was Daughter of the Drow, where a wizard used it as a contingency---when he fell into boiling magma and died, he rose again as a lich. I know different wizards attain lichdom in various ways. But was that contingency "normal"? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 04:30:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I suppose I'm just more comfortable with the idea that lichdom is a rare and mysterious process that only the most desperate of wizards will seek out.
I agree that it is a rare and mysterious process. I would just think that it is more common than other practices of immortality in the realms (other than being a Chosen of course )
That's my point, too. Any method of prolonging your life is going to be tricky and hard to find. But among those various methods, lichdom is easier to find than most others. It's still next to impossible, but you'll find more regular liches than you'll find mages who have dumped their consciousness into constructs or elder brains, for example. It's 1 in 100,000, as opposed to 1 in 1,000,000. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 06:09:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I suppose I'm just more comfortable with the idea that lichdom is a rare and mysterious process that only the most desperate of wizards will seek out.
I agree that it is a rare and mysterious process. I would just think that it is more common than other practices of immortality in the realms (other than being a Chosen of course )
That's my point, too. Any method of prolonging your life is going to be tricky and hard to find. But among those various methods, lichdom is easier to find than most others. It's still next to impossible, but you'll find more regular liches than you'll find mages who have dumped their consciousness into constructs or elder brains, for example. It's 1 in 100,000, as opposed to 1 in 1,000,000.
Ideally, seeking the secrets of lichdom may simply be the first and last resort for those desperate and/or aging mages who are racing against the clock. Alternative methods of immortality -- whether by becoming artificial constructs or whatever -- may require more time and resources than the desperate mage has left to commit to such endeavours. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Abenabin Gimblescrew
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 06:56:26
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I'm agreeing with quite a few people about becoming a lich. It IS extremely rare process for anyone to get their hands on. First off, no non-caster has the ability to even attempt becoming a lich.
Secondly, unless you are serving a god of undeath (or is okay with undeath) you aren't going to see a cleric that is a lich (at least in 3.x edition it was okay to be a lich I think in 2nd only arcane users could...don't quote me on that though).
Third, and correct me if I'm wrong, how I always interpreted the lichdom process is that it had to be personally tailored to each caster with their own devoted research in the process of becoming one. Beings of immense power might hold the secrets to help speed along the research into becoming a lich, but it all came down to the individual discovering the process on their own. Granted, as stated many times, it is more common due to the fact it is the quickest way to obtaining immortality, but at the cost of no longer enjoying many facets of every day life. The only exception to maybe a caster becoming a lich is if a god of undeath or extremely powerful being of the cosmos bestowed lichdom upon them as a "reward".
Vampirism is easier to obtain immortality and keeps most of the original features of the being when it was living, but at the cost and need to sustain themselves off the blood of the living AND no longer being able to walk around in sunlight, etc.
Immortality, as far as I've been able to tell over the years in the game or novels, is kind of like a blanket effect to explain very, very, VERY, slow aging or simply immune to death from natural causes in general. It does not mean they are invincible in any sense of the word for their magic, skills, and abilities is the reason they appear to be as such with their ability to live endlessly.
Just one side note before I close also remember that Ed and other authors have pointed out that immortal beings (or seemingly immortal beings) start to gain "quirks" or become a tad off over the long endless centuries. Elminster is even said in the 3.0 FRCS book as to still be aging slowly and the ravages of time have worn upon his mind of the loss of love ones and friends passing on.
There are quite a few stories and movies that play upon this seemingly sought after gift of immortality is seen as more of a curse than a boon. I always find those that are remembered more are those that legacy last eternally in the hearts and minds of those that keep them alive by passing them from one generation to the next. That is true immortality if there is even such a concept of being immortal. |
Invention is the key to staying ahead of the competition. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 07:09:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I thought becoming a lich needed careful, extensive preparations. But I read a novel, I think it was Daughter of the Drow, where a wizard used it as a contingency---when he fell into boiling magma and died, he rose again as a lich. I know different wizards attain lichdom in various ways. But was that contingency "normal"?
That particular mage was a master wand maker, and while falling to his death, had a split second to decide to use the most powerful wand he ever created. A Wand of Lichdom.
I just reread that one the other day. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 07:10:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I suppose I'm just more comfortable with the idea that lichdom is a rare and mysterious process that only the most desperate of wizards will seek out.
I agree that it is a rare and mysterious process. I would just think that it is more common than other practices of immortality in the realms (other than being a Chosen of course )
[/quote]
Hardly rare and mysterious these days. Seems like you can't turn around without a few lich being somewhere |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 07:15:07
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Achieving "immortality" through your offspring and stories is fine and all, but it seems like a "sour grapes" consolation for those who cannot achieve it through any other means. I'd personally prefer a few centuries or millennia worth of young lifespan, without any ambiguity. Of course I'd have to get far away from everybody else after the initial decades; people (as a group) irritate and distract me away from concentrating important matters, like I wanna spent half a thousand years watching monkeys acting stupid and imitating, worshipping, competing with, or chasing each other.
Incidentally, there are other paths to lichdom which don't involve spells, and there are divine liches (such as Baneliches) which serve other purposes than mere death and undeath. There are even undead creatures (like elven Baelnorns) who are similar yet substantially different in many important details. I think I would personally go for some sort of technolichdom, becoming a nanolich or cyberlich or whatever ... I suppose I should start doing my research. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 14:58:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Achieving "immortality" through your offspring and stories is fine and all, but it seems like a "sour grapes" consolation for those who cannot achieve it through any other means. I'd personally prefer a few centuries or millennia worth of young lifespan, without any ambiguity. Of course I'd have to get far away from everybody else after the initial decades; people (as a group) irritate and distract me away from concentrating important matters, like I wanna spent half a thousand years watching monkeys acting stupid and imitating, worshipping, competing with, or chasing each other.
Incidentally, there are other paths to lichdom which don't involve spells, and there are divine liches (such as Baneliches) which serve other purposes than mere death and undeath. There are even undead creatures (like elven Baelnorns) who are similar yet substantially different in many important details. I think I would personally go for some sort of technolichdom, becoming a nanolich or cyberlich or whatever ... I suppose I should start doing my research.
Just don't make your phylactery some gaudy piece of "bling." |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 15:08:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Transform into elans
AFAIK, elans are a non-realm race, presented in the Expanded Psionic handbook 3.5. I am against this race in my realm, because I do not think immortality should be given as a racial trait (to a +0 LA race even less). Even worse that any human can morph into an elan, though the exact process was never developed.
Elans are cool, but kinda lore-breaking, since I agree that it would be the best way to immortality by far. |
Edited by - Kilvan on 28 Sep 2011 15:09:10 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 15:15:10
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| Mummies anyone? |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 15:22:39
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Mummies anyone?
I dunno, to me, mummies are super-zombies. Yes they are sentient, but I don't see any doing something with it, just greedily guarding their stash of gold. meh.
Besides, a mummy killed is destroyed, while a lich comes back a few day later. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 19:53:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Mummies anyone?
I dunno, to me, mummies are super-zombies. Yes they are sentient, but I don't see any doing something with it, just greedily guarding their stash of gold. meh.
Besides, a mummy killed is destroyed, while a lich comes back a few day later.
I definitely think lichs are more dynamic and powerful in general, but some of those mummies get pretty darn strong in the same way that a Patriarch Vampire is much more than just a vampire. The Van Richten's Guide to the Ancient Dead was a pretty cool supplement. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Why choose lichdom over...?
