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Originally posted by Dennis


Quite right on the "coolness" thing.

I'm not sure if it's easier than the other possible means. Few powerful wizards know the ritual to lichdom, and that's not because they're not interested, but just simply do. Also, we only know one wizard who has managed to make more than a hundred phylacteries---so clearly, that feat alone is something extremely difficult to duplicate.

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Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

Knock, Knock,.. Hi Larloch we don't know each other but I want to become a lich too. So can you help me please

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Originally posted by Dennis


Why choose lichdom over other forms of immortality---wish spells-generated [Halaster], infusing one's self with shadowstuff [Telamont], or creating several clones [Manshoon]? Heck, one might even change his physical make-up by meshing his genes/blood with those of the long-lived races like the sarrukh. So why lichdom? What made Aumvor, Szass Tam, Larloch, Sammaster, Frostrune, and other liches of note [or otherwise] decide to continue their existence in such manner? Other than their obvious proclivity to undeath, of course.

Let's try to see the benefits, or lack thereof... Lichdom grants one multiple “lives” via the number of phylacteries he can make. But so does cloning. Though it appears like the secret to such feat has been kept secret by Manshoon. Lichdom also makes one practically immune to almost all kinds of undeath magic. However, so does any wizard who has mastered the intricate art of necromancy. Lichdom needs low maintenance, compared to vampirism [no vampire doesn't need to drink blood] and wish spells, which must be cast at a regular interval. Nonetheless, so does becoming a being of pure shadowstuff.

What then makes lichdom so enticing to many powerful beings of Toril?

Aside: There's already a novel aptly titled An Interview with the Vampire. To help us lore-seekers and keepers understand more the things involved in becoming and being a lich, can FR fiction have An Interview with the Lich?

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Originally posted by Firestorm

According to DnD rules, becoming a Shade just increases your lifespan(A human would live as long as an elf). It does not make you immortal. The Shades of the enclave use a combination of becoming a shade and spells(Wish) to increase their longevity.

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Originally posted by Firestorm
As for Clones, well, according to what I have read, if you create a clone when level 23 let's say, and you die at level 35, you revert to level 23 upon awakening in the clone. The clones do not gain levels as you do. They remain in stasis at the level you created them at.

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Originally posted by entreri3478

Lichs?

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Originally posted by Kilvan

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Originally posted by Firestorm

According to DnD rules, becoming a Shade just increases your lifespan(A human would live as long as an elf). It does not make you immortal. The Shades of the enclave use a combination of becoming a shade and spells(Wish) to increase their longevity.

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I did not know that, interesting.

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Originally posted by Firestorm
As for Clones, well, according to what I have read, if you create a clone when level 23 let's say, and you die at level 35, you revert to level 23 upon awakening in the clone. The clones do not gain levels as you do. They remain in stasis at the level you created them at.

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Whoa, that's bad, but I guess it's better than dying. That must be 2nd rule, because in 3.5 the clone is treated like the original having received a Raise Dead spell.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Clone

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Hello again, all.
Markustay, what SORT (wink, giggle) of comment were you looking for, re. “Raw Ed”? After all these years, I can make SO many . . .
And yes, Ed did create archliches for LOST SHIPS (after obtaining design approval from the TSR designers of the day to include a “good lich” in the game, to support some good or at least benign to PCs liches that had appeared in fiction and game products).
As for this comment, from Wooly Rupert: “I've always thought the deliberate embrace of undeath was a bit of an odd option for cheating death. One idea I've always preferred was for a mage to transfer his consciousness into a specially-prepared automaton. The end result (no longer worrying about death, aging, and other physical frailities) is the same, plus the automaton body would be more durable, nicer to look at, and wouldn't be physically rotting away. I know if I wanted to last a few more centuries, I'd choose an option where my fingers falling off wouldn't be a concern...”
. . . Ed has a response, as follows:

I see nothing at all wrong with your reasoning, Wooly, and although Newt Ewell specifically asked me to add a brief “drow biomech” section to the original (2nd Ed) DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, the “official but secret” design directives of the time were to avoid all “android and robot” flavouring in AD&D® because TSR was planning a robot roleplaying game, PROTON FIRE. Longtime DRAGON® readers may recall that it was featured in the back pages of just one issue of the magazine, as a preview; the game was “killed” on the very brink of its release by TSR’s upper management. So, just like de-emphasizing psionics in the Realms because they were to be a cornerstone of Dark Sun®, we were told to avoid mechanical/robotic/android/bionic elements for the AD&D® game. THAT’S why the embrace of undeath rather than the “build your own new body.”
As for the alternative “clone or birth your own new body and then move into it” approach, THAT ran afoul of the internal Code of Ethics, TSR wanting to avoid further trouble with the religious Moral Majority stances of the day. For years - - as various Realms NPCs have aged - - I have flirted and toyed in my Realms fiction with exploring the ethical choices they make about how to prolong life (for those who wish to do so). I plan, editors willing, to do more of that in future fiction.

So saith Ed. Illuminating the design backrooms of the Realms and D&D® for us all.
love,
THO

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Originally posted by Seravin

The Stasis Clone spell that Manshoon created is also incredibly rare, I'm sure I've read that he has killed anyone who tried to steal or learn it. Although presumably the chosen would know it or a spell like it, wizards below their level don't have access to the necessary Clone spell that would work to create faux-immortality like Manshoon did. Before he became a vampire or whatever he now is.

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Originally posted by Firestorm

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Originally posted by Dennis


Why choose lichdom over other forms of immortality---wish spells-generated [Halaster], infusing one's self with shadowstuff [Telamont], or creating several clones [Manshoon]? Heck, one might even change his physical make-up by meshing his genes/blood with those of the long-lived races like the sarrukh. So why lichdom? What made Aumvor, Szass Tam, Larloch, Sammaster, Frostrune, and other liches of note [or otherwise] decide to continue their existence in such manner? Other than their obvious proclivity to undeath, of course.

Let's try to see the benefits, or lack thereof... Lichdom grants one multiple “lives” via the number of phylacteries he can make. But so does cloning. Though it appears like the secret to such feat has been kept secret by Manshoon. Lichdom also makes one practically immune to almost all kinds of undeath magic. However, so does any wizard who has mastered the intricate art of necromancy. Lichdom needs low maintenance, compared to vampirism [no vampire doesn't need to drink blood] and wish spells, which must be cast at a regular interval. Nonetheless, so does becoming a being of pure shadowstuff.

What then makes lichdom so enticing to many powerful beings of Toril?

Aside: There's already a novel aptly titled An Interview with the Vampire. To help us lore-seekers and keepers understand more the things involved in becoming and being a lich, can FR fiction have An Interview with the Lich?

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According to DnD rules, becoming a Shade just increases your lifespan(A human would live as long as an elf). It does not make you immortal. The Shades of the enclave use a combination of becoming a shade and spells(Wish) to increase their longevity.

According to Lords of Darkness, Telamont uses Wish spells to live those long years. And is currently looking into other means(Undeath is mentioned) to keep going after his outsider body begins to fail.

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Well over two millennia old, Telamont preserves his life by means of powerful magic, such as wish spells. This process has been made easier by virtue of the fact that he is no longer human, but rather an outsider. The natural life span of a shade is many times longer than that of an ordinary human. However, Telamont acknowledges reluctantly that as his outsider body begins to fail, stronger measures are required to keep him alive. He has not yet decided on the best means of continuing his existence, but the Shadovars’ return to Faerűn offers a wealth of possibilities, including transformation into an undead creature.

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Originally posted by sfdragon

if one would want to achieve immortality with a wish spell, you'd have to just wish to stop aging both in body and mind.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Seravin

The Stasis Clone spell that Manshoon created is also incredibly rare, I'm sure I've read that he has killed anyone who tried to steal or learn it. Although presumably the chosen would know it or a spell like it, wizards below their level don't have access to the necessary Clone spell that would work to create faux-immortality like Manshoon did. Before he became a vampire or whatever he now is.

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Sememmon knows it. And with the many caches of magic and spellbooks that Manshoon has scattered around, it's likely that it's fallen into other hands, as well.

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Originally posted by Alisttair

Easy access.

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Alisttair

Easy access.

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I wouldn't quite say it's that easy. Or, at the very least, the costs involved in obtaining the secrets of lichdom shouldn't make it so easy to obtain.

We know some fiends can offer the secrets of lichdom. And while that may be somewhat easier for a summoner mage-type, the price asked of the mage by the fiend, I'd imagine, wouldn't be "cheap."

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