| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 12:47:46
Why choose lichdom over other forms of immortality---wish spells-generated [Halaster], infusing one's self with shadowstuff [Telamont], or creating several clones [Manshoon]? Heck, one might even change his physical make-up by meshing his genes/blood with those of the long-lived races like the sarrukh. So why lichdom? What made Aumvor, Szass Tam, Larloch, Sammaster, Frostrune, and other liches of note [or otherwise] decide to continue their existence in such manner? Other than their obvious proclivity to undeath, of course.
Let's try to see the benefits, or lack thereof... Lichdom grants one multiple “lives” via the number of phylacteries he can make. But so does cloning. Though it appears like the secret to such feat has been kept secret by Manshoon. Lichdom also makes one practically immune to almost all kinds of undeath magic. However, so does any wizard who has mastered the intricate art of necromancy. Lichdom needs low maintenance, compared to vampirism [no vampire doesn't need to drink blood] and wish spells, which must be cast at a regular interval. Nonetheless, so does becoming a being of pure shadowstuff.
What then makes lichdom so enticing to many powerful beings of Toril?
Aside: There's already a novel aptly titled An Interview with the Vampire. To help us lore-seekers and keepers understand more the things involved in becoming and being a lich, can FR fiction have An Interview with the Lich? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 02:51:28
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, the characterization of Lauzoril was intriguing (I had never pictured Lauzoril as a follower of death magic being an enchanter, but it also brought to mind the question of "what are his opposition schools if it doesn't include necromancy?").
Conjuration, most likely. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 01:02:20
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
sleyvas
In earlier editions, liches actually required larvae in order to extend their existence and had to deal with night hags oftentimes to get them. I mean, its not as bad as a blood craving, but it is maintenance.
Actually, I don't recall that. Assuming "earlier editions" means 1E and 2E. What is your source, sleyvas?
Well, just thinking back, the original gray box set for FR. In the module in the kitchen (page 57). "This is the place Azimer has been killing larvae brought to him by summoned demons and night hags, which helps him to maintain his lichhood (though he no longer sees himself as a lich at all)." Also page 61 "Though he still summons night hags and demons to collect larvae, enabling him to maintain his existence as a lich, he now believes he is doing this in order to achieve godhood (which will never occur)."
I've seen it elsewhere as well in an article dealing with night hags I believe.
I also googled nighthag larva lich and found the following entry on larva (in a monstrous manual entry from planescape 2nd edition)
"Habitat/Society: Night hags herd larvae to use them as bargaining chips in the Gray Waste. Lower planar powers use the larvae to form quasits and imps, and in return they agree not to enter night hag territories. Powerful liches feed on larval energies to maintain their undead immortality, and in return the liches destroy creatures who refuse to trade with the hags. The complex bartering system is sustained by the growing numbers of lower planar inhabitants." |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 00:56:24
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Szass Tam was able to hide his lich essence for a long time. However, in one of the novels it points out that he was having to appear and was more disheveled than usual. I believe it was around the time Eltab's release happened, but it very well may have been because he pissed off Velsharoon again at that time (they never were very friendly).
He appeared "disheveled" in The Simbul's Gift.
Yes, enjoyed that novel, except for the idea that there was one guy that could scare all the zulkirs and order them about.... that royally pissed me off. However, the characterization of Lauzoril was intriguing (I had never pictured Lauzoril as a follower of death magic being an enchanter, but it also brought to mind the question of "what are his opposition schools if it doesn't include necromancy?"). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Nov 2011 : 00:50:08
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
sleyvas
In earlier editions, liches actually required larvae in order to extend their existence and had to deal with night hags oftentimes to get them. I mean, its not as bad as a blood craving, but it is maintenance.
Actually, I don't recall that. Assuming "earlier editions" means 1E and 2E. What is your source, sleyvas?
Well, just thinking back, the original gray box set for FR. In the module in the kitchen (page 57). "This is the place Azimer has been killing larvae brought to him by summoned demons and night hags, which helps him to maintain his lichhood (though he no longer sees himself as a lich at all)." Also page 61 "Though he still summons night hags and demons to collect larvae, enabling him to maintain his existence as a lich, he now believes he is doing this in order to achieve godhood (which will never occur)."
I've seen it elsewhere as well in an article dealing with night hags I believe.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Nov 2011 : 01:35:24
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Szass Tam was able to hide his lich essence for a long time. However, in one of the novels it points out that he was having to appear and was more disheveled than usual. I believe it was around the time Eltab's release happened, but it very well may have been because he pissed off Velsharoon again at that time (they never were very friendly).
He appeared "disheveled" in The Simbul's Gift. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Nov 2011 : 00:56:04
quote:
sleyvas
In earlier editions, liches actually required larvae in order to extend their existence and had to deal with night hags oftentimes to get them. I mean, its not as bad as a blood craving, but it is maintenance.
Actually, I don't recall that. Assuming "earlier editions" means 1E and 2E. What is your source, sleyvas? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 22:09:12
quote:
Originally posted by Idamar of Thay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
ALL immortals need maintenance. The vampires have to suck blood. Even the gods need the prayers of their faithful to continue their miserable existence.
True, but liches have among the simplest upkeep. As long as your phylactery is well hidden/protected, there really isn't all that much you need to do. Even the few illusions needed to be able to function in society are nothing for any decent lich.
Although one thing I noticed in the Haunted Lands trilogy; there are numerous references to Szass Tam exuding a foul stench when you get too close or how the tip of his fingers are withered. I have wondered if he did it on purpose to remind people of his nature, and thus his power, or is it that he cannot completely hide his undeath?
Szass Tam was able to hide his lich essence for a long time. However, in one of the novels it points out that he was having to appear and was more disheveled than usual. I believe it was around the time Eltab's release happened, but it very well may have been because he pissed off Velsharoon again at that time (they never were very friendly). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 22:05:29
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Other than the widely accepted notion that they're not as convenient as lichdom, I think it's the fact that other means do not grant exact or true immortality. As noted before, even "shadedom" [coined for the Shadovar's current state of being] has its limits. Telamont himself considered lichdom before his life-sustaining spells fail. The abjurers can rid themselves of the harsh punishment of aging, as the Zulkir of Abjuration herself, Lallara, did. But that in itself is ephemeral; there will come a time when the spells would fail. Not to mention they have to cast it upon themselves regularly; unlike lichdom which is a one time deal. Liches also observe some maintenance, but not as rigorous as those of the other completely or nigh-immortal beings.
In earlier editions, liches actually required larvae in order to extend their existence and had to deal with night hags oftentimes to get them. I mean, its not as bad as a blood craving, but it is maintenance. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Nov 2011 : 03:56:24
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Liches might even recognize specific mages - and any spells or items or magics created by them - by "scent" alone, much as living creatures (even humans) recognize each other through scent.
Szass Tam does. Though whether he's been able to do that since his mortality or since his lichdom is not revealed. Most likely the latter. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 21:25:20
A lich's biology is entirely supernatural, sustained by magic. I would think a lich could see and hear and smell and taste and feel magic, being able to instinctively and automatically sense dweomers all sorts of ways. Conversely, I doubt most liches (and yes, Aumvor the Undying is a bizarre exception) would be able to smell and taste natural things, such stuff would probably seem quite bland, and largely unnecessary in any event. The scent of growing things, soil, and clean air would likely be indistinguishable from those of decayed flesh, spoiled food, and moldy tapestries without conscious effort (particularly since liches don't even need to breathe) ... although the stench of thunder on a mage's fingertips or the sickly-sweet enticing cloak of illusion he wears or the abrasive-itchy/rubbery-slippery-shifting barrier of abjuration surrounding him might be immediately discerned across a crowded room, much like a whiff of chlorine or sulphur alerts living things to tainted air or like the taste of blood in the water attracts sharks.
Liches might even recognize specific mages - and any spells or items or magics created by them - by "scent" alone, much as living creatures (even humans) recognize each other through scent. I suppose a lich might even cultivate this sense, training himself to extend his perceptions, and thereby even be able to recognize "strains" or "flavours" of magic carried by apprentices and associates. A possible extreme would be a jaded Aumvor-like lich with a hobby for sating his decadent palette by sampling delicious magics (and mages) of the rarest vintage. |
| Portella |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 20:17:47
I can imagine him sniffing dweomers and strange magical auras as he enters a room looking puzzling at you like if he was savouring the air around you. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 20:05:22
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I think Szass was simply unable to completely disguise the putrid stench of his decayed flesh without dousing himself in buckets of perfume. Although he certainly could have chosen to occlude it through the use of illusion magics, he either chose to not waste his time on such trivial efforts or, I think, had the edges of his humanity eroded away beyond the point where he was no longer inclined to be aware of such minor issues.
Besides, how much care could one have for inoffensive hygeine while attempting to master a discipline of complete disdain and utter contempt for everyone else around? And how well could those undead nostrils function, I doubt Szass even has any sense of smell remaining outside of sniffing dweomers.
Sniffing dweomers? Now THAT is something that i never thought i would read on here  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 19:20:07
I think Szass was simply unable to completely disguise the putrid stench of his decayed flesh without dousing himself in buckets of perfume. Although he certainly could have chosen to occlude it through the use of illusion magics, he either chose to not waste his time on such trivial efforts or, I think, had the edges of his humanity eroded away beyond the point where he was no longer inclined to be aware of such minor issues.
Besides, how much care could one have for inoffensive hygeine while attempting to master a discipline of complete disdain and utter contempt for everyone else around? And how well could those undead nostrils function, I doubt Szass even has any sense of smell remaining outside of sniffing dweomers. |
| Portella |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 18:41:28
When you are that powerful sometimes things are just to much of a bother to do something with it these guys are still human or at least were may be he just dont care. Specially since everyone knows him and a little smell can go a long way. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 18:06:33
quote:
Originally posted by Idamar of Thay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
ALL immortals need maintenance. The vampires have to suck blood. Even the gods need the prayers of their faithful to continue their miserable existence.
True, but liches have among the simplest upkeep. As long as your phylactery is well hidden/protected, there really isn't all that much you need to do. Even the few illusions needed to be able to function in society are nothing for any decent lich.
Although one thing I noticed in the Haunted Lands trilogy; there are numerous references to Szass Tam exuding a foul stench when you get too close or how the tip of his fingers are withered. I have wondered if he did it on purpose to remind people of his nature, and thus his power, or is it that he cannot completely hide his undeath?
I think everything Tam does has a purpose, including the fingertips and smell of death. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 17:45:55
It was mentioned that he intentionally kept the withered state of his fingers. As for the stench, there was no hinting whether it's deliberate or otherwise. But I suppose it's the former. Creating false smell is part of the art of Illusion. Szass Tam was able to pierce the illusion created by a coven of competent illusionists, led by their zulkir herself, Dmitra. And he killed one of Thay's most powerful Zulkir of Illusion, Mythrellan. Either he's a master abjurer or an advanced illusionist. Or both. Given that, the simple task of hiding his stench via illusion is well within his capacity. |
| Idamar of Thay |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 17:19:45
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
ALL immortals need maintenance. The vampires have to suck blood. Even the gods need the prayers of their faithful to continue their miserable existence.
True, but liches have among the simplest upkeep. As long as your phylactery is well hidden/protected, there really isn't all that much you need to do. Even the few illusions needed to be able to function in society are nothing for any decent lich.
Although one thing I noticed in the Haunted Lands trilogy; there are numerous references to Szass Tam exuding a foul stench when you get too close or how the tip of his fingers are withered. I have wondered if he did it on purpose to remind people of his nature, and thus his power, or is it that he cannot completely hide his undeath? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 03:17:10
ALL immortals need maintenance. The vampires have to suck blood. Even the gods need the prayers of their faithful to continue their miserable existence. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 18:38:13
The fact that liches do decay indicates that they do not possess immortality, only great longevity. Of course, it cannot be proven that all liches decay, some are truly antediluvian, some so ancient they cannot even remember their original identities, many are preserved well enough yet obviously insane.
The impact of immortality is likely greatly dependent upon the individual, some are intrinsically well suited to it whereas others are not. And this variance is likely multiplied against factors in the liching process itself, since each lich has to invent (or adapt) the process individually, as dictated by their magical skills and resources (and luck) in life. I suspect that the process must be finely tailored and simply duplicating another lich's work will lead to problems some centuries afterwards. |
| Portella |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 13:58:38
Indeed some Lich do go great lengths to prolong the decay of their bodies I seem to remember even a magical potion in some source book that does just that. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 13:54:52
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Other than the widely accepted notion that they're not as convenient as lichdom, I think it's the fact that other means do not grant exact or true immortality. As noted before, even "shadedom" [coined for the Shadovar's current state of being] has its limits. Telamont himself considered lichdom before his life-sustaining spells fail. The abjurers can rid themselves of the harsh punishment of aging, as the Zulkir of Abjuration herself, Lallara, did. But that in itself is ephemeral; there will come a time when the spells would fail. Not to mention they have to cast it upon themselves regularly; unlike lichdom which is a one time deal. Liches also observe some maintenance, but not as rigorous as those of the other completely or nigh-immortal beings.
Lich maintenance? Like the Jiffy Lube Signature Service Complete Undead Cleansing package??  |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 09:38:24
Other than the widely accepted notion that they're not as convenient as lichdom, I think it's the fact that other means do not grant exact or true immortality. As noted before, even "shadedom" [coined for the Shadovar's current state of being] has its limits. Telamont himself considered lichdom before his life-sustaining spells fail. The abjurers can rid themselves of the harsh punishment of aging, as the Zulkir of Abjuration herself, Lallara, did. But that in itself is ephemeral; there will come a time when the spells would fail. Not to mention they have to cast it upon themselves regularly; unlike lichdom which is a one time deal. Liches also observe some maintenance, but not as rigorous as those of the other completely or nigh-immortal beings. |
| Sousana |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 09:03:42
Well, if necromancy can provide eternal life of a sort, shouldn'tother schools be able to do so as well? We know conjuration can do it, infernal contracts and all that. Abjurers are all about protection, why don't they get this? An invoker can use the elements freely, how is it that they can't grow elemental in some fashion? Enchanters can put their consciousness into items - and become immortal, in some fashion. A case could be made that diviners already have immortality, maybe precognition is their way. A transmuter has the polymorph option. Finally, and this is a delightful idea, shouldn't an illusionist be able to become some sort of living dream/illusion? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 08:28:21
quote:
Originally posted by Sousana
Immortality... a fate worse than death.
Perhaps. However, obviously for some, it's worth seizing it. Magical research and experimentation knows no bounds. Others take it to themselves to discover all facets of magic, to explore all possibilities that magic can engender. They deem 80 years of existence too short for such an arduous but fulfilling endeavor. And so they resort to lichdom and other forms of immortality. |
| Sousana |
Posted - 07 Nov 2011 : 08:10:52
Immortality... a fate worse than death.
Let us discuss what it actually means. As far as I can see, you can break it down into immortal will, immortal senses and immortal presence. Immortal will is the continued existence of the plans, decisions and projects of your life. Death is a pretty big downer for this, because youcan't even know if they did survive. Someone with this attitude could well choose lichdom, say to advance his magic research. However, it is not an absolute requirement - an heir could continue the project, laws could ensure one's will far into the future, and so on. Immortal presence is typically described as fear of death. If I am dead, what happens to my consciousness? To such a person, even being a ghoul could be enough. The durability of the method would be the relevant issue, not the quality. Finally immortal presence is much like immortal will, except you wish to be available if needed in the future. I imagine this is what the aerenal ancestors, baelnorns, chosen, and others do. Immortality is not a simple issue. I agree however that lichdom is the most "easily available" - the other methods seem to be more nebulous and individual. Anyone with enough necromantic savvy can become a lich. Still, given that Faerun is a dangerous place, why bother? Chances are you won't outlive your lifespan anyway. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Nov 2011 : 18:39:26
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
What I was trying to say is that although liches had the hunger for magic in life, I think the liching somehow greatly intensifies that hunger while burning everything else out.
I'm not sure that's the case with Aumvor, though. His insatiable [non-magic-related] appetite seemed to have followed him to his undeath existence. |
| Portella |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 20:47:01
Isnt there gothyl from the sword of the dales adventure she was arch_shadow trying to become a demishade. Anyone knows of any more info about that? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 19:00:24
What I was trying to say is that although liches had the hunger for magic in life, I think the liching somehow greatly intensifies that hunger while burning everything else out. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 14:37:16
I think lichdom would only be high maintenance if the lich has to show his human form---flesh and all---for diplomacy's sake, like what Szass Tam used to do. I believe it requires some high level of transmutation and illusion. |
| Idamar of Thay |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 13:13:04
Well it's not as if their lichdom caused their hunger for magic, they had it as a living mage before.
But still, of the many types of immortality, liches have low maintenance and do not need to follow any deity or organizations. It's all about freeing up as much time as possible to study spells really. And the added powers and defenses are a big bonus too. |
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