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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 20:15:32
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| Maybe lichdom, somehow, allows the caster to keep their mind and their dominion over magic without any draw-back. Putting your conscience in a golem, would alter your skill in spell-casting, due to the more raw movement of your arms and, specially fingers. Becoming other kind of cretures on the other side, like mummies, zombies o politicians may affect your mind in a way that somehow ripped off or diminished your casting hability.... just my thought... at least this is how I always saw that issue in particular. |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 20:28:21
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| Politicians? They wish immortality, but not at the cost of their humanity! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 20:31:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Maybe lichdom, somehow, allows the caster to keep their mind and their dominion over magic without any draw-back. Putting your conscience in a golem, would alter your skill in spell-casting, due to the more raw movement of your arms and, specially fingers. Becoming other kind of cretures on the other side, like mummies, zombies o politicians may affect your mind in a way that somehow ripped off or diminished your casting hability.... just my thought... at least this is how I always saw that issue in particular.
I would think that making a golem or other construct nimble enough for spellcasting shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Having your arms decaying and your fingers falling off would be more of an impediment to spellcasting, thinks I.  |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 20:55:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Maybe lichdom, somehow, allows the caster to keep their mind and their dominion over magic without any draw-back. Putting your conscience in a golem, would alter your skill in spell-casting, due to the more raw movement of your arms and, specially fingers. Becoming other kind of cretures on the other side, like mummies, zombies o politicians may affect your mind in a way that somehow ripped off or diminished your casting hability.... just my thought... at least this is how I always saw that issue in particular.
Super-glue!
I would think that making a golem or other construct nimble enough for spellcasting shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Having your arms decaying and your fingers falling off would be more of an impediment to spellcasting, thinks I.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 21:00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Maybe lichdom, somehow, allows the caster to keep their mind and their dominion over magic without any draw-back. Putting your conscience in a golem, would alter your skill in spell-casting, due to the more raw movement of your arms and, specially fingers. Becoming other kind of cretures on the other side, like mummies, zombies o politicians may affect your mind in a way that somehow ripped off or diminished your casting hability.... just my thought... at least this is how I always saw that issue in particular.
I would think that making a golem or other construct nimble enough for spellcasting shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Having your arms decaying and your fingers falling off would be more of an impediment to spellcasting, thinks I.
Super-glue!
And how to you propose to open the bottle when your fingers have fallen off? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 21:42:18
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Mummies anyone?
I thought they're easier to slay than liches. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 21:52:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Politicians? They wish immortality, but not at the cost of their humanity!
I ignored they had such thing |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 21:53:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Maybe lichdom, somehow, allows the caster to keep their mind and their dominion over magic without any draw-back. Putting your conscience in a golem, would alter your skill in spell-casting, due to the more raw movement of your arms and, specially fingers. Becoming other kind of cretures on the other side, like mummies, zombies o politicians may affect your mind in a way that somehow ripped off or diminished your casting hability.... just my thought... at least this is how I always saw that issue in particular.
I would think that making a golem or other construct nimble enough for spellcasting shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Having your arms decaying and your fingers falling off would be more of an impediment to spellcasting, thinks I.
Haven't seen any lich with that matter, though now I think archliches don't even have arms.... |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 22:03:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Politicians? They wish immortality, but not at the cost of their humanity!
I ignored they had such thing
Some of them are hardly human to begin with... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 22:45:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Maybe lichdom, somehow, allows the caster to keep their mind and their dominion over magic without any draw-back. Putting your conscience in a golem, would alter your skill in spell-casting, due to the more raw movement of your arms and, specially fingers. Becoming other kind of cretures on the other side, like mummies, zombies o politicians may affect your mind in a way that somehow ripped off or diminished your casting hability.... just my thought... at least this is how I always saw that issue in particular.
I would think that making a golem or other construct nimble enough for spellcasting shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Having your arms decaying and your fingers falling off would be more of an impediment to spellcasting, thinks I.
Haven't seen any lich with that matter, though now I think archliches don't even have arms....
Archliches have arms.
But the undead bodies of liches and archliches do decay, albeit at a very slow rate. So it may take a millenium, but they will eventually have to worry about bits and pieces falling off. A construct would not have this issue, or at least not as soon. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 23:08:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Maybe lichdom, somehow, allows the caster to keep their mind and their dominion over magic without any draw-back. Putting your conscience in a golem, would alter your skill in spell-casting, due to the more raw movement of your arms and, specially fingers. Becoming other kind of cretures on the other side, like mummies, zombies o politicians may affect your mind in a way that somehow ripped off or diminished your casting hability.... just my thought... at least this is how I always saw that issue in particular.
I would think that making a golem or other construct nimble enough for spellcasting shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Having your arms decaying and your fingers falling off would be more of an impediment to spellcasting, thinks I.
Haven't seen any lich with that matter, though now I think archliches don't even have arms....
Archliches have arms.
But the undead bodies of liches and archliches do decay, albeit at a very slow rate. So it may take a millenium, but they will eventually have to worry about bits and pieces falling off. A construct would not have this issue, or at least not as soon.
Has been any case of "nimble" constructs around? The only ones I've seen or read about are the typical massive adamantine/iron/clay/ etc... golem ones |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 23:15:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Maybe lichdom, somehow, allows the caster to keep their mind and their dominion over magic without any draw-back. Putting your conscience in a golem, would alter your skill in spell-casting, due to the more raw movement of your arms and, specially fingers. Becoming other kind of cretures on the other side, like mummies, zombies o politicians may affect your mind in a way that somehow ripped off or diminished your casting hability.... just my thought... at least this is how I always saw that issue in particular.
I would think that making a golem or other construct nimble enough for spellcasting shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Having your arms decaying and your fingers falling off would be more of an impediment to spellcasting, thinks I.
Super-glue!
And how to you propose to open the bottle when your fingers have fallen off?
BTW all liches always have some big skully teeth, so they can always use them to open the tub... |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 23:19:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Has been any case of "nimble" constructs around? The only ones I've seen or read about are the typical massive adamantine/iron/clay/ etc... golem ones
Well, there's nimblewrights... And Baelam the Bold encountered some contruct that was nimble enough that when it cut off his hand, he had one of the contruct's hands grafted in its place -- and he is a spellslinger.
Keep in mind, golems aren't nimble because golems are created with the "Hulk SMASH!" tactic in mind. You don't need to be nimble when even a glancing blow will reduce someone to mush. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Sep 2011 23:21:14 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 23:21:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Maybe lichdom, somehow, allows the caster to keep their mind and their dominion over magic without any draw-back. Putting your conscience in a golem, would alter your skill in spell-casting, due to the more raw movement of your arms and, specially fingers. Becoming other kind of cretures on the other side, like mummies, zombies o politicians may affect your mind in a way that somehow ripped off or diminished your casting hability.... just my thought... at least this is how I always saw that issue in particular.
I would think that making a golem or other construct nimble enough for spellcasting shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Having your arms decaying and your fingers falling off would be more of an impediment to spellcasting, thinks I.
Super-glue!
And how to you propose to open the bottle when your fingers have fallen off?
BTW all liches always have some big skully teeth, so they can always use them to open the tub...
If Pharaun could cast spells using his feet, I guess some wizards could use theirs to open a bottle. And that includes liches. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 23:21:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Maybe lichdom, somehow, allows the caster to keep their mind and their dominion over magic without any draw-back. Putting your conscience in a golem, would alter your skill in spell-casting, due to the more raw movement of your arms and, specially fingers. Becoming other kind of cretures on the other side, like mummies, zombies o politicians may affect your mind in a way that somehow ripped off or diminished your casting hability.... just my thought... at least this is how I always saw that issue in particular.
I would think that making a golem or other construct nimble enough for spellcasting shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Having your arms decaying and your fingers falling off would be more of an impediment to spellcasting, thinks I.
Super-glue!
And how to you propose to open the bottle when your fingers have fallen off?
BTW all liches always have some big skully teeth, so they can always use them to open the tub...
If Pharaun could cast spells using his feet, I guess some wizards could use theirs to open a bottle. And that includes liches.
Toes would be subject to falling off, too. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 23:27:55
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Yes, I thought you'd say that. But then, why use toes, teeth, and fingers when a lich is a master spellcaster and can simply utilize magic even without the help of his hands [or feet]? Telekinesis, too, for psionic liches. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 28 Sep 2011 23:28:42 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 23:48:14
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| I'm guessing that Imhotep from The Mummy was hardly what D&D would actually call a mummy (even one of those described by Van Richten); after his initial concern with retrieving his canopic jars, Imhotep was actually far more like a D&D priest-lich instead. I might even go so far as to claim he was, in terms of the powers he used in the movie, almost something of a druid-lich. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 00:12:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Has been any case of "nimble" constructs around? The only ones I've seen or read about are the typical massive adamantine/iron/clay/ etc... golem ones
Well, there's nimblewrights... And Baelam the Bold encountered some contruct that was nimble enough that when it cut off his hand, he had one of the contruct's hands grafted in its place -- and he is a spellslinger.
Keep in mind, golems aren't nimble because golems are created with the "Hulk SMASH!" tactic in mind. You don't need to be nimble when even a glancing blow will reduce someone to mush.
Forgot to mention the most nimble construct of all of them, in the Realms: Alias and her sisters. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 00:14:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Yes, I thought you'd say that. But then, why use toes, teeth, and fingers when a lich is a master spellcaster and can simply utilize magic even without the help of his hands [or feet]? Telekinesis, too, for psionic liches.
Takes some effort to memorize all those still spells, and the dozens of mage hands that'd be necessary every day. Easier to not have to worry about your body falling apart. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 01:57:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Maybe lichdom, somehow, allows the caster to keep their mind and their dominion over magic without any draw-back. Putting your conscience in a golem, would alter your skill in spell-casting, due to the more raw movement of your arms and, specially fingers. Becoming other kind of cretures on the other side, like mummies, zombies o politicians may affect your mind in a way that somehow ripped off or diminished your casting hability.... just my thought... at least this is how I always saw that issue in particular.
I would think that making a golem or other construct nimble enough for spellcasting shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Having your arms decaying and your fingers falling off would be more of an impediment to spellcasting, thinks I.
Haven't seen any lich with that matter, though now I think archliches don't even have arms....
Archliches have arms.
But the undead bodies of liches and archliches do decay, albeit at a very slow rate. So it may take a millenium, but they will eventually have to worry about bits and pieces falling off. A construct would not have this issue, or at least not as soon.
Indeed. While liches usually don't require food or water, they must still conduct rituals that are designed to renew their powers and sustain their physical existences. Which would suggest that their physical selves are susceptible to instances of rot and decay. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 02:20:14
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you could also find a way tp aquire the monk's timeless body( or whatever ruleset equivilent).
it would stop the aging process for the arcanist wanting to slow down time. extend your lifespan magics would still be needed, unless yer a lich, in which case your dead already and it could be argued that it would stop your dead bones from decaying. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 02:43:10
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Actually, Sage, my understanding is that those rituals are not directly needed to sustain a lich, his constant exposure and practice of magic does that instead. The purpose of the rituals is to grow; ie: to accumulate additional powers.
Incidentally, regeneration and invulnerability to nonmagical attacks are two of those powers which a smart lich might choose early on if he intends to prolongue his existence.
The physical condition of liches in the Realms, especially examples like Szass Tam (until recently) being able to halt decay and even conceal his nonliving state, suggests that liches are fairly well-designed, sturdy, and capable of some self-repair. In extreme circumstances, complete destruction of the lich's physical body forces his soul to transfer into his phylactery ... then assume yet another fully intact body as opportunity provides. It seems to me that the ultimate limits impose upon a lich's years are not physical (repaired bodies aren't hard to find), they are mental and spiritual (eventually a lich's mind or soul decays to the point where he can no longer sustain his existence and must move to his next one).
I wonder what happens to a lich's phylactery once he abandons the world? Does it become inert? Is destruction of his own phylactery the final ritual a lich must perform to achieve demilich form? |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 03:12:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Actually, Sage, my understanding is that those rituals are not directly needed to sustain a lich, his constant exposure and practice of magic does that instead. The purpose of the rituals is to grow; ie: to accumulate additional powers.
Well, I was going by previous Realmslore that I'd read on the subject of liches utilising specialised rituals to maintain their decayed forms. It's implied that some liches counter their centuries-old rot by employing rituals -- both arcane and mundane -- to slow the rotting of their undead bodies.
Ed's also noted that early Realms liches believed that retaining clothing and footwear slowed the "inevitable decay" of the physical body of the lich. So a lot of them are afraid of falling apart faster, and believe that clothing, however ragged, rotten, or "abbreviated," somehow provides a binding for the body that slows its deterioration.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 05:18:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The physical condition of liches in the Realms, especially examples like Szass Tam (until recently) being able to halt decay and even conceal his nonliving state, suggests that liches are fairly well-designed, sturdy, and capable of some self-repair.
I think that if this was a normal ability for liches, they'd not look like walking corpses. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 05:43:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The physical condition of liches in the Realms, especially examples like Szass Tam (until recently) being able to halt decay and even conceal his nonliving state, suggests that liches are fairly well-designed, sturdy, and capable of some self-repair.
I think that if this was a normal ability for liches, they'd not look like walking corpses.
Agreed.
And both the bits I remembered from Ed above, as well as what's noted about liches needing to sustain their physical forms [in Van Richten's Guide to the Lich for example], supports that notion. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 06:22:42
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Are there psionic liches in the Realms? If so, did they retain their full ability when they were still "alive"? Was it increased or decreased exponentially? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 06:37:04
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Psionic liches are detailed (along with several other psionic monsters) in the 2E PHBR5: The Complete Psionic's Handbook; so if psionics are used in the Realms campaign then psiliches could (and likely would) be present. Note that psionic characters have been established in Realms canon and are actually integrated within the core rules for 4E (they were optional in all previous editions).
Psionic lich monster entries are also detailed in numerous other products, although not in the Forgotten Realms Monstrous Compendium supplements. It is of course always possible for them to migrate to the Realms from other worlds (well, except from Krynn, which has no native psionics). It is also possible for nonhuman psiliches - say, Githliches or Illithiliches, or even Phaerimmliches or Sharnliches (why not?) - to choose a corner of the Realms as a possible site for experimentation, inhabitation, colonization, invasion, or exile.
I would think that liches tend to be attracted, or at least become well informed, to each others' presences ... imagine how much a lich might covet the concentrated repository of lore possessed by another, or how paranoid it might become of securing what it has from threatening competitors - they hoard magic (or psionic) power in very much the same way as dragons hoard treasure. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Sep 2011 06:53:50 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 06:53:36
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The Sharn are immortal. So I don't think they'll walk another path to immortality. That's like demigods [uselessly] drinking elixers of life. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 29 Sep 2011 06:54:58 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 07:01:02
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In some pantheons the gods do need to reverse their aging through consumption of divine ambrosia or golden apples or whatnot.
Sharnliches do seem quite improbable, I admit, I don't know about their immortality but they are a telepathically unified species.
I wonder if Telamont might be some sort of Shadowlich? The lich process offers more than mere longevity/immortality - it also adds power. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 07:17:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I wonder if Telamont might be some sort of Shadowlich?
Quite an interesting postulation. Perhaps that's exactly where he's heading when his "shade-life" is over. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Topic |
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Why choose lichdom over...?
