quote:

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Originally posted by Aldrick

Eltheron-

Those were nearly my exact thoughts before I read the sample chapter, and I expressed them as such on the WotC forums.

I was basically thinking: "Sigh. Here we go again. WotC has made Ed write another Elminster book, and they are doing exactly what I expected them to do - bring back Mystra. No big shock. Ugh. ...and they really did turn El into magical ash. Oh, for the love of..."

Cue several days passing. I finally decide to force myself to read the sample chapter (it's free, and I could quit if I hated it). After I'm done I'm shocked to find that:

1. I actually liked it, despite going into it with MAJOR bias.
2. I couldn't believe how much Ed's writing has improved over the years, and not just improved - it was pretty amazing. I found myself actually wanting to buy the book! Me! Of all people!

If it were not for the knowledge that Mystra / El fans would march on WotC headquarters with torches and pitchforks in hand... well... I'd have even fewer doubts. My initial reaction was exactly like your own: "WotC is trying to pull those upset with all the 4E changes to the Realms back into the setting by returning Mystra. Don't they realize that this is doomed to failure, and that a single token gesture isn't going to appease anyone? After all, the time jump is what made people the most angry, along with the mangling of lore... there is no way they can repair that by bringing Mystra back."

I would have walked away from the sample, believing Ed was deliberately attempting to implant doubts about the authenticity of Mystra. ...except for the warning he gave in his Q&A thread: "Please bear in mind that jumping to conclusions involves leaps into the unknown."

That caused me to raise my eyebrows, believing that he was attempting to give some forewarning to the fans of Mystra that all was not as it seemed, in order to blunt the heartbreak / backlash that would surely come.

Ironically, all of this makes me more eager to read the novel to discover what happens for myself. So, if that was Ed's intention with his comment - bravo. I've fallen for your dirty, dirty tricks. Bravo.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Arcanus

Well, if isn't Mystra in one form or another then there are going to be (myself included) a lot of very upset fans.
I always thought that getting rid of Mystra was a big mistake, too big of a fundamental change for a mature setting. It must of alienated a lot of core fans.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Not to start one of "those" debates again, but even if it is Mystra/whatever 'everyone' wants, do you really think that is going to unalienate people who feel alienated?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Not to start one of "those" debates again, but even if it is Mystra/whatever 'everyone' wants, do you really think that is going to unalienate people who feel alienated?

---

Exactly. Things will be made more complicated if it is actually Mystra, but she's brought back as darker and edgier than before... that appears to be the general consensus in this thread. If this is true, there will certainly be cries of: "How dare you! Not only did you murder Mystra, but now you bring her back only to defame and desecrate her character!"

From those who hated the Chosen, you'd hear all the old arguments against them all over again. "Oh great! More Chosen... again. Mystra is supposedly weak and barely exists at all and yet she's spitting out Chosen left and right all over again!"

...and we'd get to hear a new argument, similar to some old arguments, if Mystra decides to get some evil Chosen... "How can my heroic characters ever hope to be successful with <insert evil Chosen> constantly plotting to kill them!? My players can never hope to be heroic because <insert evil Chosen> will simply ally with the goblin tribe they're fighting!"

(Notice the subtle difference? Old good Chosen wipe out said goblin tribe, making PC's irrelevant. New evil Chosen ally with said goblin tribe, and then kill the PC's. If there are evil Chosen that are at least as powerful as Elminster, you will hear this argument! Bank on it. )

...and on and on it goes. Whatever the outcome of these novels, one group or another will feel angry, alienated, or have their worst suspicions confirmed. This somewhat has me wondering what possessed WotC / Ed to step into this pile of doo-doo.

For me, personally... I no longer have a stake in the fight. After 4E I disconnected my Realms from canon completely. My Realms looks vaguely similar, but is more-or-less homebrew. I used to cleave as close to canon as possible, and now I feel liberated to a large degree.

This sense of liberation may be one reason I'm able to enjoy the novel for the story. I'm not searching it for Realmslore. It has zero impact on my Realms. If there is something I like within it, or some inspiration, I might steal it or modify it to fit my Realms. Otherwise, it is no different than any other non-Realms novel you'd read.

So, for me, I'm hoping Ed cranks out a good and interesting story. If that happens, I'm happy. I may debate the outcome of the story and the impact it has on Realms canon, but beyond that...? It means little to nothing to my Realms.

That being said... I've been reading comments on other non-Realms related forums. None that I have seen have been good, but I don't think any of them actually read the sample chapter. They saw the blurb and had the same initial reaction that I had upon reading it.

The nicest one that I saw: "If Elminster has been turned into magical ash, there is only one thing left to do: invent cement."

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quote:

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Bury Elminster Deep pre-release version page 7-8

“More than ever, El, I need
your service. You I can truly trust, where so many others have turned from me
or fallen. I can coerce, of course, but I will no longer make that mistake of lesser
gods. The work of slaves is nigh worthless. For deeds to have true and lasting
meaning, they must done willingly. Elminster Aumar, El mine, are you still
mine? Are you with me?”

“Recruit new Chosen, and gather them here for me to confer with. I need
many, and they must be different from my daughters and from each other, for that
kinship was another misstep. Yet, we both know how rarely the needed loyalty and
strength are found together—and above all, I must have those I can trust.”

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quote:

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Originally posted by Aldrick

Saer Cormaeril-

Assuming that it is Mystra, how would you feel if she really declared herself as goddess of all magic and began to show it? In other words, she'd want (and display) evil Chosen. They are, after all, wizards, and so long as they are spreading magic they are her servants.

How would you feel if Mystra began to display and show an equal love for all spells? She would admire, love, and promote the use of Mindrape, the animation of the Undead, and even magic that completely destroys the soul of an individual. Yet, at the same time, she would show equal love and admiration for magic that helps feed the hungry, protect the innocent, and destroy or banish the unnatural.

If Mystra does indeed return, this is the direction I believe we'd see her move. As a true goddess of all magic. She'd be a goddess that encourages the creation of new magic and its spread across Toril - for good or for ill.

Of course, one would wonder what would happen to her Chosen... would they suddenly begin defending evil wizards and their dark arts, so long as those wizards -share- their knowledge with other practitioners of the Art? Imagine a situation in which Mystra sends Elminster to defend an evil wizard on the verge of a massive breakthrough in necromancy. Of course, this wizard has obtained most of his "material" illegally from back alleys. In particular, he's been kidnapping and murdering beggars and street urchans. A group of adventurers are on his tail, and Mystra sends El to distract and misdirect the adventurers.

How would you feel about such an outcome?

Since the Shadow Weave is no more... How would you feel if Mystra directed her Chosen to begin seeking out converts among returned Netheril? How would you feel if her Chosen are placed in a position of defending the Shades, and allowing them to do awful things simply because they advance Mystra's agenda to promote magic?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:

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Originally posted by Aldrick

Saer Cormaeril-

Assuming that it is Mystra, how would you feel if she really declared herself as goddess of all magic and began to show it? In other words, she'd want (and display) evil Chosen. They are, after all, wizards, and so long as they are spreading magic they are her servants.

How would you feel if Mystra began to display and show an equal love for all spells? She would admire, love, and promote the use of Mindrape, the animation of the Undead, and even magic that completely destroys the soul of an individual. Yet, at the same time, she would show equal love and admiration for magic that helps feed the hungry, protect the innocent, and destroy or banish the unnatural.

If Mystra does indeed return, this is the direction I believe we'd see her move. As a true goddess of all magic. She'd be a goddess that encourages the creation of new magic and its spread across Toril - for good or for ill.

Of course, one would wonder what would happen to her Chosen... would they suddenly begin defending evil wizards and their dark arts, so long as those wizards -share- their knowledge with other practitioners of the Art? Imagine a situation in which Mystra sends Elminster to defend an evil wizard on the verge of a massive breakthrough in necromancy. Of course, this wizard has obtained most of his "material" illegally from back alleys. In particular, he's been kidnapping and murdering beggars and street urchans. A group of adventurers are on his tail, and Mystra sends El to distract and misdirect the adventurers.

How would you feel about such an outcome?

Since the Shadow Weave is no more... How would you feel if Mystra directed her Chosen to begin seeking out converts among returned Netheril? How would you feel if her Chosen are placed in a position of defending the Shades, and allowing them to do awful things simply because they advance Mystra's agenda to promote magic?

---

Perhaps Azuth, being lawful neutral as he was, was so discontented with the new Mystra's imbalance toward good that he simply handed his staff to Cyric?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Arcanus
Mystra pleaded guilty to failing her office at her trial and was given another chance. From then on I would imagine that she had a more neutral view on magic users.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Arcanus

Question. If Mystra is the goddess of ALL magic, then why is she so weak on her return? As the weave was a construct that allowed magic users to convert raw magic into a more user friendly form, then surely the amount of power available to her is just the same?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

This is one of my pet peeves. Mystra 2.0 leaning overly much towards good was a plot device in one novel. It was presented and dealt with in the same novel -- she was basically slapped down for not being neutral in regards to her office.

It never had any effect on gameplay. It was a one-off plot device, and that's it.

And yet for more than ten years, people have complained about this supposed imbalance that simply does not exist.

I wish people would either get over it, or, even better, read all of the source material they're citing, rather than cherry-picking factoids and plot elements.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Arcanus

Question. If Mystra is the goddess of ALL magic, then why is she so weak on her return? As the weave was a construct that allowed magic users to convert raw magic into a more user friendly form, then surely the amount of power available to her is just the same?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

This is one of my pet peeves. Mystra 2.0 leaning overly much towards good was a plot device in one novel. It was presented and dealt with in the same novel -- she was basically slapped down for not being neutral in regards to her office.

It never had any effect on gameplay. It was a one-off plot device, and that's it.

And yet for more than ten years, people have complained about this supposed imbalance that simply does not exist.

I wish people would either get over it, or, even better, read all of the source material they're citing, rather than cherry-picking factoids and plot elements.

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quote:

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"The return of Bane. As I’ve said before, I’d love to write a novel about the return of Bane, or see a novel written by someone else who I think can properly handle Bane himself (and yes, Jim Lowder would be my first choice, and a superb one), published. However, Wizards seems uninterested in this (yes, I’ve asked, several times, and so have lots of GenCon attendees, over the years), and the best time for such a novel to appear is past. It should have been a “right after the 3rd Edition FRCS” blockbuster.

So yes, I believe the FRCS entry is all you’re going to get for now. I’m hoping that in the context of publishing some lore about the various priesthoods in the Realms, we can sneak in some additional coverage of this - - but of course it’ll be a “possibly distorted by doctrine” version, not a “you the reader are there and so KNOW all of this to be true” viewpoint. Like the slaying of Leira, this was a topic initially ‘off limits’ because of the old TSR Code of Ethics (couldn’t show evil succeeding, and there’s no greater success for evil than godslaying, after all - - regardless of the nature of the deity), and probably makes some game company execs very uneasy because of the American Religious Right’s likely reaction if they get word of such a topic."

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quote:

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TSR/WotC Realms novels have that structure because strict sets of Code of Ethics have applied, down the years, mandating that. In short, we were forced to write "good guys win" novels (hence the Keystone Kops-incompetent Zhents of early books). That has slowly been relaxed (as for how CRUCIBLE got that way, it must have had full editorial approval).

You're quite right that evil must triumph to set up those established powerful evil organizations - - and if you check Realmslore, you'll see many, many historical instances of the bad guys winning (fall of Myth Drannor, etc.).

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quote:

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“The "Keystone Kops" nature of the early published Zhentarim was due to the TSR Code of Ethics, which was being VERY strictly applied to the Realms because Dragonlance (what with Raistlin and Takhisis and Kitiara and the draconians) was seen by some in the company as having 'broken' the Code and gotten far too 'evil-is-successful-and-attractive' - - and "We're NOT going to let that happen in the Realms!"

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:

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Originally posted by Arcanus

Question. If Mystra is the goddess of ALL magic, then why is she so weak on her return? As the weave was a construct that allowed magic users to convert raw magic into a more user friendly form, then surely the amount of power available to her is just the same?

---

-A billionaire who goes broke when he looses all his assets, it's going to take him a while to build his personal worth back up to levels that are even an echo of what they used to be.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Arcanus

If it is Mystra, then I think that it's pretty clear that she will be changed radically. Ed's sample chapter describes her as being more distant to El. Maybe it will be more of a return to the original Mystryl rather than the latest (Midnight) Mystra.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Aldrick

Saer Cormaeril-

Assuming that it is Mystra, how would you feel if she really declared herself as goddess of all magic and began to show it? In other words, she'd want (and display) evil Chosen. They are, after all, wizards, and so long as they are spreading magic they are her servants.

---

quote:

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How would you feel if Mystra began to display and show an equal love for all spells? She would admire, love, and promote the use of Mindrape, the animation of the Undead, and even magic that completely destroys the soul of an individual. Yet, at the same time, she would show equal love and admiration for magic that helps feed the hungry, protect the innocent, and destroy or banish the unnatural.

---

quote:

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If Mystra does indeed return, this is the direction I believe we'd see her move. As a true goddess of all magic. She'd be a goddess that encourages the creation of new magic and its spread across Toril - for good or for ill.

<snip>

How would you feel about such an outcome?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

This is one of my pet peeves. Mystra 2.0 leaning overly much towards good was a plot device in one novel. It was presented and dealt with in the same novel -- she was basically slapped down for not being neutral in regards to her office.

It never had any effect on gameplay. It was a one-off plot device, and that's it.

And yet for more than ten years, people have complained about this supposed imbalance that simply does not exist.

I wish people would either get over it, or, even better, read all of the source material they're citing, rather than cherry-picking factoids and plot elements.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
I would feel sad. I really liked it when Mystra became good (FRA, I think?); and since I think that good and evil are very mortal concepts in DnD, it made me feel like Mysta was on the side of humanity. Her Chosen were each inspiring figures. I love the Seven Sisters. LOVE THEM. The Pleiades were my favorite constellation as a child. Mystra having evil Chosen would be a no-go for me.

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quote:

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Evil always turns on itself in the end in DnD, essentially victimizing itself, like a serpent eating it's own tail.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Aldrick


Here with this statement you've proven a couple of the points I've been making.

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quote:

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The first is that people who loved Mystra and her Chosen will not be happy by any changes made, because changes - by their very nature - alter something they've loved. So unless Mystra has returned and intends to carry on where she left off, and I believe we have enough solid proof to believe otherwise, individuals such as yourself are going to be left disappointed by the outcome. Depending on the nature of the change - whether it is mild or great - there may even be feelings of alienation. ("How dare you! Not only did you murder Mystra, but now you bring her back only to defame and desecrate her character!") This could have the effect of opening old wounds.

Not to mention there will be individuals who'll be angry at bringing Mystra back in -ANY- incarnation - even as an outright villainous deity.

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quote:

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Second, you prove my point about perception. You view Mystra and her Chosen as goodly heroes of the Realms in your words, "on the side of humanity." And you also state, "Mystra having evil Chosen would be a no-go for me."

You perceived Mystra and her Chosen in a favorable light, for all the reasons you've stated. Others had the same exact perception as you - that they were goodly heroes of the Realms on the side of good - and they hated Mystra and her Chosen for it. The only difference between your perception and their perception of the Chosen is that you loved what you perceived, and they hated it.

However, their perceptions - your perceptions - are (to the best of my knowledge) incorrect. Canonically, Mystra's Chosen existed to promote and spread the use of magic. That's what they did - that was their job. If they had to sometimes do things they felt were morally objectionable to spread and promote the use of magic - they did it anyway.

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All of the Chosen have aided evil wizards at various times in the past. Does anyone honestly believe that the Chosen haven't tempted to encourage evil wizards to share their knowledge of magic with others? That was their job, their duty from on high by the Lady of Mysteries herself. ...and imagine if they were successful, all the horrible and evil magic you object to would spread and become more widely available. All of it thanks to Elminster, the Seven, and the rest of the Chosen.

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quote:

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Ed has stated that Mystra did indeed have evil Chosen - at least in the past. She had many more Chosen that we never knew, some of which could still be alive in 4E. This, too, is canon. So, the dislike of Mystra gaining evil Chosen shows the inaccurate perception of Mystra and her Chosen - because evil Chosen have existed in the past, and have likely always existed since the beginning.

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quote:

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<Snipped a bunch of repetitive non-sense>

In the end, we either have a goddess of all magic or we don't. If Mystra had decided to shrink her portfolio to "good magic" only, I'm very certain more than a handful of other deities would be happy to fight over "evil magic." This is how the portfolio of magic was divided up in the Mulhorandi Pantheon.

quote:

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Evil always turns on itself in the end in DnD, essentially victimizing itself, like a serpent eating it's own tail.

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This is a misconception. Evil has to win and be successful quite often. If it was not the case groups such as the Zhents, Red Wizards, Cult of the Dragon, and Returned Netheril could not exist.

Just because evil may not be shown to win in novels, does not mean that it is not making gains - that for every failure there is at least one or more equal successes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
You are incorrect in your assessments of the progression of Evil. In addition, you seem to be under the laughable impression that the Zhents, Red Wizards, Cult of the Dragons and Shadovar 'could not' exist unless 'Evil Wins'. The very thought is ridiculous to an obscene level.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
You are incorrect on all fronts save "This could have the effect of opening old wounds."
Indeed, it could.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
The Chosen have frequently made many mistakes of morality.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Please give source and page number to validate the following: "Canonically, Mystra's Chosen existed to promote and spread the use of magic. That's what they did-that was their job"

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quote:

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I can confirm two things, from my own prior knowledge. Yes, Mystra has had evil (and amoral, self-interested) Chosen...as well as Chosen who have "gone bad."

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quote:

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Now as for the Chosen: Mystra has indeed had evil Chosen (NDAs prevent me from saying much about who, when, why, and so on)...

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quote:

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[Mystra has] learned that evil beings, whatever their promises to her or initial intent, always drifted into "control" of magic (heavy restrictions), rather than just strategically letting this person but not that person have a particular spell or lore-knowledge.

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Yes, all of the Chosen have performed evil tasks … to advance Mystra's aims. Magic has been stolen by Chosen, copied or duplicated against the wishes of (or laws crafted by) its owners by the Chosen, some of the Chosen have tricked, killed, and betrayed (into death-traps) particular rulers, and so on.

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quote:

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... the Chosen understand their cardinal role (helping Mystra spread the use of magic throughout Faerûn, by undertaking specific tasks she orders - - some of which they may not understand or see the point of, at all).

…

... if you encounter Chosen portrayed in game play or Realms publications as not knowing or agreeing with this role, either you're seeing other creatures masquerading as Chosen, or encountering the work of a player or DM who doesn't understand the Chosen, and DOES see them as "Ed's meddling old goat wizards and superbabes serving Miss Goody Two-Boots Magic to defeat evil and spread overly-sweet goodness across the Realms."

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quote:

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This comment from Ed is regarding these words (and only these words) from Markustay:

quote:

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"First, I never said Mystra was a 'force for good' - she isn't.

She is a force to promote Arcane magic, and she uses the weave to that end. Technically, I think of Mystra as more of an immensely powerful, sentient artifact. She was created by gods, and is the self-aware consciousness of the weave. At that level of power, the difference between such an artifact and a 'true god' is negligible; merely a matter of semantics. She's like an overly-complex computer program that keeps needing to be rebooted every so often.

Anyhow, the spread of Ubral (shadow) magic is what she is trying to prevent - its natural connections to death would have a devastating effect on the Realms (look at Anauroch). That may make it seem like she is a force for good, but technically 'Good vs Evil' don't enter into it - magic is merely a means to an end, and can be used for either. It is the type of magic she is most concerned with.

While the 'free use of magic' is best-promoted by a free, democratic society, it is not necessary. She obviously had no problem with Aryvandaar and the Vyshann Empire (although it is questionable how much control she can exert over elves). Tyranny tends to lend itself to those in power being the only ones allowed to hold power, and that is the only reason why Mystra opposes those types of cultures."

---

Ed saith:

Markustay, every word of this is correct, and is superbly expressed. Right on, in every detail.

...

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quote:

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Back on page 80 of this thread, The Sage asked this (as a followup to a query from Markustay about Ed telling us about any Chosen who might reside outside Faerûn): “Ed, I'd also like to hear more about any Chosen of Mystra who might reside [or, maybe, once did reside] beyond Toril itself, perhaps somewhere else out among the reaches of Realmspace?”

Ed replies:

Some of what I’d like to say is under several NDAs, but I can mention one such Chosen: Narandor the Metal Mage. An embittered, cynical hermit (think Eeyore in the Pooh tales, for disposition), this archwizard of early Halruaa ended up on the wrong end of a spell-duel and got mangled horribly, in magics that kept him alive to feel the pain as a foe’s sequence of minor acid-burst and transforming spells wracked him (envisage, if you will, spells that shield the target from system shock and unconsciousness, and shapeshift them constantly to heal and reform around budding cysts in the interior of which flesh-searing acid is developed; the cysts grow and then burst, showering the surrounding flesh of the victim with agonizing “melting” effects; the cysts have an interior coating that resists and contains the acid until the cyst ruptures).

Debilitated but unable to die, Narandor writhed in helpless pain until some of his former apprentices found him. They tried to quell the spells riding him, but managed only to isolate them in several of his limbs—which they then blasted into oblivion. Narandor lost consciousness, and they debated as to what to do for him; slay him out of mercy, transform him utterly, transfer his sentience into a beast-body, or - - their eventual choice - - replace his missing limbs with flowmetal, something many Halruaans had been working on. This is in effect “living” metal that bonds with an organic body and slowly poisons it, but in the meantime can function as replacement limbs, digits, etc. Flowmetal’s poisoning has never been overcome, and its use was later abandoned as spells were developed that could “infect” it swiftly to cause death of someone bonded to it in a handful of breaths, but Narandor received a right arm and shoulder, a right leg, and a left knee, all of replacement flowmetal - - which he has to this day. He counteracted the poisoning by devising a spell that shifts the chemical balance of his remaining organic body constantly, so that it flows in shape, weeps a pus of ceaseless discharges, and can grow functional fingers, breasts, crude press-lungs, false eyes, etc. as he wills.

Narandor was already a master of skyship design, and he sailed one of his ships high into the sky and tethered it to a magically-levitated chunk of rock (all that remained of a blasted-to-dust “skycastle” fortress, that had once belonged to a Netherese archwizard until several rivals decided to destroy him whilst he was in residence).

Then Narandor used his spells to cover the rock with edible mosses, lichens, and mushrooms, and settled down in isolation to devise new spells. His experiments were long and studded with more failures than successes, but he eventually achieved two things: the ability to ensnare moisture and shield his home from the full heat of the sun, so as to keep that dampness and preserve his plants from baking on the rock - - and the ability to move his home through the skies with fair precision. Whereupon, of course, he set about traveling around collecting other aerial fragments, and “growing” his home into his own private little jungle, plus bits and pieces of several ruined skyships and aerial abodes.

Mystra imbued him with some of her silver fire (with his enthusiastic agreement) not to have him be a meddling “remake the world” Chosen, but to store some of herself where others were unlikely to come into contact with it. For his part, Narandor gained a permanent freedom from the flowmetal poisoning effect (the silver fire offsets it), Mystra’s love, gratitude, and presence whenever he grows lonely and calls for it, and philosophical debates from time to time with Mystra or various of her servitors, who now act as Narandor’s agents in Faerûn, to bring him back items he desires (mainly substances for spell experimentations).

Narandor is now fairly contented, though he retains his doleful manner, and lives his life making various exotic wines, researching spells, and using his magics to observe events on Faerûn far below.

This is all pre-Spellplague, of course; what befalls him when the Weave fails is up to you; I’d suspect his aerial home would be sent on a wild ride, and eventually crash to earth - - but I’d not count Narandor out as conveniently dying in the crash. I’d suspect he’d survive the Spellplague, as a disfigured, part-metal wandering wizard who keeps to himself and stays hidden as much as possible. Extremely bad news for any arrogant young warlock or wizard who encounters and misjudges him, of course. ;}

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
You are incorrect in your assessments of the progression of Evil. In addition, you seem to be under the laughable impression that the Zhents, Red Wizards, Cult of the Dragons and Shadovar 'could not' exist unless 'Evil Wins'. The very thought is ridiculous to an obscene level.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:

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Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
You are incorrect in your assessments of the progression of Evil. In addition, you seem to be under the laughable impression that the Zhents, Red Wizards, Cult of the Dragons and Shadovar 'could not' exist unless 'Evil Wins'. The very thought is ridiculous to an obscene level.

---

With respect, I don't think Aldrick was suggesting that "Evil wins" all the time in order for the Zhents, Red Wizards, etc. in order to exist. Rather, it's more that those evil organizations wouldn't exist if they toppled easily and lost every time to those of good or neutral alignment. At their core, each of those organizations really had to have been doing a lot of evil-oriented things in order to prosper. We just never saw those organizations doing their evilness and winning, because it was a TSR "no no!"

If they really did start showing these organizations fully (or whatever their successors/counterparts morphed into for 4E) and truly let readers "see" the depths of evil winning as much as they'd need to just for realism, the Realms would indeed be perceived as having a much darker tone.

In many ways, if they showed evil organizations winning from time to time, if they showed Mystra being more like her old LN Mystryl-like self, IMO not only would it make the Realms more realistic it would also make the wins of heroic protagonists all the more heroic. It would be gritty in the real sense of the word (like a Lieber-style Lankhmar gritty), and not the silly and overdone darky darkness of New Thay or the fakey Chthulu-wannabe-isms of all the Far Realms BS they've tried to inject recently. I utterly hate New Thay for essentially being Mordor. I hate Far Realms because it was their "answer" for needing scary demons/devils after they castrated the scariness of the Abyss and Nine Hells.

But a truly gritty setting with a LN Mystryl goddess and realistic shades of gray like Lankhmar, I'd sign up for that. It would make good characters' efforts all the more emotionally powerful and satisfying, and genuinely more heroic.

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Originally posted by Tyrant

As for the preview chapter, I liked it and I am curious to see where it goes. It would be nice to finally see an evil Chosen in the fiction.

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