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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
 Posted - 13 May 2011 : 06:15:22
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Hello everyone, i dont know whether this has been done or not, but just simply wanted to put out there. Now, we've all read and maybe seen sometimes the power of archmages, and nothing more prevalent (other than turning to ash) than the reanimation of corpses. I mean most of the bbeg faced are liches or undead of some sort, or if not they are directly related to it and such.
So i want to get your feedback on Art of Necromancy and coincidentally Nethermancy, and if anyone would be willing to post heroes of shadow here. Thanks alot.
Also check out DND wizards vs harry potter wizards and leave some comments there. Thanks
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Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 06:29:40
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Necromancy in FR and in fantasy in general is often associated with villains, or people inclined to harm others for selfish gains. I want to see necromancers in the Realms who are like Martris Drayke [Chronicles of a Necromancer] and Liliana [Magic: The Gathering]. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 08:24:57
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Complete Book of Necromancers is tremendous!
Never heard of Nethermancy until today. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 08:41:55
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Very interesting Sage.
Took Necromancy and split it into two schools.
Will check this book out... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 08:47:14
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| I've read complete book of necromacers and love it. Sadly though if they can make an entire class of it in 2e why cant wotc do the same thing in 4e |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 08:56:47
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So they can make more money?
I really don't know why.
Kinda makes sense in the link Sage posted.
Nethermancy reminded me of the Shadowcaster from Tome of Magic, which I thought was a really neat class. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 13 May 2011 08:57:25 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 10:56:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I've read complete book of necromacers and love it. Sadly though if they can make an entire class of it in 2e why cant wotc do the same thing in 4e
I had wondered the same thing. When the news of the Heroes of Shadow came out oh....sometime around August of 2010 I just assumed it would contain the Necromancer in a fully self-independent class. But then Essentials hit and from right there, I knew it would be a Mage school. Not to say that it's a bad thing, since the Mage school practically oozes with good stuff AND the Necromancer can still benefit from a lot of great Wizard spells too.
Still....was sorta hoping to see something like the v3.5 Dread Necromancer. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 14:00:56
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Dread Necromancer is good but kinda lacking somewhat then the whole turn into a lich at level 20.
BTW can a char still level even after becoming a lich and what about say another race like in 4e shade becoming a dread necromancer, do they still retain racial abilities even after becoming undead or what? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 15:04:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Dread Necromancer is good but kinda lacking somewhat then the whole turn into a lich at level 20.
BTW can a char still level even after becoming a lich and what about say another race like in 4e shade becoming a dread necromancer, do they still retain racial abilities even after becoming undead or what?
Hmmm, I think your crossing the rules between editions here. In v3.5, the Dread Necromancer allowed to you gain a sort of Lichdom with all the added benefits of the class plus lich abilities. Since they didn't progress the Dread Necromancer into Epic, I'd assume any sort of level-dependant class features would be maintained (like a specific bonus at certain levels would still keep progressing). So they would still gain levels and so forth.
Shades were introducted as a race all their own in 4E, something that's different than v3.5/3e. In those days they were templates that were added to any humanoid race (elf, dwarf, human, etc..) but I can see them maintaining the benefits of both their shade aspects (ie template) and the abilities of the Lich (like special attacks, undead traits, d12 HD).
The Necromancy school in 4E doens't advance a character into lichdom, so it's perfectly viable for a Shade Necromancer to remain that through his level progression until 30th level. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 17:45:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Shades were introducted as a race all their own in 4E, something that's different than v3.5/3e. In those days they were templates that were added to any humanoid race (elf, dwarf, human, etc..) but I can see them maintaining the benefits of both their shade aspects (ie template) and the abilities of the Lich (like special attacks, undead traits, d12 HD).
-Races of Faerūn included Shades as a race as well. Throughout the 3e run, there were about fifteen different variations on the theme, some templates, some actual races. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 18:38:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Shades were introducted as a race all their own in 4E, something that's different than v3.5/3e. In those days they were templates that were added to any humanoid race (elf, dwarf, human, etc..) but I can see them maintaining the benefits of both their shade aspects (ie template) and the abilities of the Lich (like special attacks, undead traits, d12 HD).
-Races of Faerūn included Shades as a race as well. Throughout the 3e run, there were about fifteen different variations on the theme, some templates, some actual races.
I was under the impression that Shades don't breed other shades? Or maybe it's both ways? Shades breed true but anyone can become a Shade through the ritual. I do recall that the Shade template/race described in the Races of Faerūn supplement only had their Level Adjustment at LA +4 but then there was errata saying it is +5. Very confusing....
And the worst part is the same thing exists in 4E too. In the FRCG, there is a Template you can add to your enemies/bad-guys/etc... that is a Shade Template. It makes any standard monster automatically "Elite" and any "Elite" monster almost a "Solo".
They then create the whole Shade race for 4E in the Heroes of Shadow book, lol. Too bad the race really sinks as I was looking forward to possibly playing one  . I can accept a few traits that aren't all that great (espically their racial power) but when you start automatically dropping healing surges for no real good reason....it's not worth it. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 20:24:47
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| 5th level requirement to become a Shade according to Lords of Darkness. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2011 : 05:38:15
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| So the shade is nerfed? Hah actually i think the shade in 3.5e is better so maybe you could take that and build on it. Besides that the level cap is 30 or can a char just keep going? For a wizard that would be beneficial, cos you can just learn every spell and become quite deadly. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2011 : 21:13:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
So the shade is nerfed? Hah actually i think the shade in 3.5e is better so maybe you could take that and build on it. Besides that the level cap is 30 or can a char just keep going? For a wizard that would be beneficial, cos you can just learn every spell and become quite deadly.
Depends on how you look at it really. I for one never felt Shades (3e) really ever deserved to be played by PCs. I've always put a strict limit on Level Adjustment races, nothing above a LA +2 and that includes any templates added during character creation. So by these standards, the Shade Race is a neat idea as I didn't allow it to be played at my table.
Also, there are two ways to create a Shade. The first and most simplist form for PCs is to just be a Shade featured in the Heroes of Shadow book. But, the racial power is pretty weak (At-will ability to gain concealment or hide in an adjacent ally's shadow as a Standard Action). This is over-shadowed (no pun intended) by the most basic rogue, warlock, and wizard powers in heroic tier (the classes a Shade's attributes would be best suited for). The power is also pretty useless in combat, unless you willing to spend an AP (action point) for it which is just wrong mechanically. Take the weaksauce power and the fact that you automatically start with 1 less healing surge because your infused with Shadow and it vastly detracts from playing "squishy" classes (ie. the classes the Shade's attributes would be best suited for). They automatically gain training in Stealth but I don't think this makes up for the lack of mechanical support to make them a viable race.
Then you have the Template which is very, very powerful and we know Templates really aren't designed for PCs to take. That is, unless you'd like to break it down into a Paragon Path which would be difficult IMO.
So on one hand you have strong villians and monsters to use as a DM and in that regard, Shades are pretty decent. But as a playable race, not very much. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 04:05:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I was under the impression that Shades don't breed other shades? Or maybe it's both ways? Shades breed true but anyone can become a Shade through the ritual. I do recall that the Shade template/race described in the Races of Faerūn supplement only had their Level Adjustment at LA +4 but then there was errata saying it is +5. Very confusing....
-Shades, as in Shadovar don't. Shades, as in people living on the Plane of Shadows who somehow got the 'Shadow Creature' 3e template, or some other method to becoming a Shade, who knows. But, that's neither here nor there. It's presented in Rof as a race (which Shades are) as a means of expediency- your character is assumed to have undergone the ritual transformation in his/her history, and is already a certified, bonafide Shade by the time the game starts. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 14:05:28
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| One thing thought, is necromancy better in 4e, cos in the previous versions i've seen spells like thay's raise nation and those monumental spells literally blew the socks off me, or is necro in 4e nerf too? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 14:59:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
One thing thought, is necromancy better in 4e, cos in the previous versions i've seen spells like thay's raise nation and those monumental spells literally blew the socks off me, or is necro in 4e nerf too?
Yes, it's powerful compared to other mage schools and wizard spells within the confines of 4e. Cross-over comparisons between v3.5 and 4e are hard to judge because the games are designes so differently. Necromancers have the ability to by pass the necrotic resistances of monsters and they can raise the dead. Their most powerful spell (finger of death) deals a whopping 10d6 + Intelligence modifier necrotic damage. I'm addition, if the spell drops the target below 1/2 HP it takes an additionl 20 dmg. If the spell drops the target below 20 HP then it dies instantly...
Now this might seem pitiful compared to 3e but keep in mind that most epic tier daily spells deal, at most, 5 to 6d6 damage with a debilitating effect. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 05:22:40
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| Not to mention the save or just die spells |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 22:54:36
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| Save-or-die spells exist for almost every school of magic, even those which "oppose" necromancy. Disintegrate, power word: kill, weird, etc. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 23:26:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Save-or-die spells exist for almost every school of magic, even those which "oppose" necromancy.
Especially divination.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 06:05:54
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I did qualify my statement by saying almost every school. But illusion and enchantment both have save-or-die spells.
[Edit]
I second Sage's recommendation for 2E Complete Necromancer - it's not a perfect but it is, sadly, the best D&D book available about the naughty topic of necromancers. 2E-era Ravenloft material is admirably well suited for inspiring unwholesome and repulsive necromancer characters who can make your PCs cringe, most especially the ideas presented in the various Van Richten's Guides about undead, liches, and flesh golems.
Nethermancers, as a school/class/tradition/discipline of magic which aren't much at all related to D&D-style necromancers can be found in the Earthdawn RPG. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 03 Jun 2011 06:13:35 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 10:57:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I did qualify my statement by saying almost every school.
Oh, I know. I just saw your statement and immediately found myself amused at the idea of save-or-die divination spells. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 12:59:18
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Perhaps a divination spell which forces the target to know the incomprehensible knowledge of a godlike being?
I suppose people might take extraordinary measures to conceal themselves from diviners (gorgon's blood in the mortar, magical wards, etc etc) ... but they ultimately don't find diviners terribly threatening. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 09:15:56
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| Would the save or die spell in divination be the power words or...?? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 15:03:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Would the save or die spell in divination be the power words or...??
Power Word: TMI. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11700 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 19:35:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Perhaps a divination spell which forces the target to know the incomprehensible knowledge of a godlike being?
Even worse, it forces the target to KNOW what their grandma and grandpa look like while KNOWING one another biblically. It causes the person to drive their fingers into their skulls via their eyesockets. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 19:40:25
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Contact other plane can sometimes have unhealthy results. Mere insanity, though, not death ... although I personally feel the former is far worse. Then again I don't live in a world populated by tons of priests who can simply cure insanity with a single spell.
[Edit: Haha, and then again yet again ... they can just as easily cure death. But I digress] |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Jun 2011 19:41:28 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 13:33:53
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| A mindblank or maybe being undead like a lich could prevent such a thing?? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 03:14:08
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| I don't care what the rules and mechanics might say ... you cannot convince me liches are immune to insanity. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The School Of Necromancy and (Nethermancy)
