| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 06:15:22
Hello everyone, i dont know whether this has been done or not, but just simply wanted to put out there. Now, we've all read and maybe seen sometimes the power of archmages, and nothing more prevalent (other than turning to ash) than the reanimation of corpses. I mean most of the bbeg faced are liches or undead of some sort, or if not they are directly related to it and such.
So i want to get your feedback on Art of Necromancy and coincidentally Nethermancy, and if anyone would be willing to post heroes of shadow here. Thanks alot.
Also check out DND wizards vs harry potter wizards and leave some comments there. Thanks |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 09:07:35
i dont know, maybe they are after all ioulaum turned to lichdom so that he was immuned to the mind flayers psionic power, and thought normal torillians would say that liches are mad, thats not really true, they are sane and have common sense, they just ignore it. after all they already cheated death, is something like a conscious going to hold them back? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 03:14:08
I don't care what the rules and mechanics might say ... you cannot convince me liches are immune to insanity. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 13:33:53
A mindblank or maybe being undead like a lich could prevent such a thing?? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 19:40:25
Contact other plane can sometimes have unhealthy results. Mere insanity, though, not death ... although I personally feel the former is far worse. Then again I don't live in a world populated by tons of priests who can simply cure insanity with a single spell.
[Edit: Haha, and then again yet again ... they can just as easily cure death. But I digress] |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 19:35:53
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Perhaps a divination spell which forces the target to know the incomprehensible knowledge of a godlike being?
Even worse, it forces the target to KNOW what their grandma and grandpa look like while KNOWING one another biblically. It causes the person to drive their fingers into their skulls via their eyesockets. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 15:03:20
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Would the save or die spell in divination be the power words or...??
Power Word: TMI.  |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 09:15:56
Would the save or die spell in divination be the power words or...?? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 12:59:18
Perhaps a divination spell which forces the target to know the incomprehensible knowledge of a godlike being?
I suppose people might take extraordinary measures to conceal themselves from diviners (gorgon's blood in the mortar, magical wards, etc etc) ... but they ultimately don't find diviners terribly threatening. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 10:57:09
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I did qualify my statement by saying almost every school.
Oh, I know. I just saw your statement and immediately found myself amused at the idea of save-or-die divination spells. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 06:05:54
I did qualify my statement by saying almost every school. But illusion and enchantment both have save-or-die spells.
[Edit]
I second Sage's recommendation for 2E Complete Necromancer - it's not a perfect but it is, sadly, the best D&D book available about the naughty topic of necromancers. 2E-era Ravenloft material is admirably well suited for inspiring unwholesome and repulsive necromancer characters who can make your PCs cringe, most especially the ideas presented in the various Van Richten's Guides about undead, liches, and flesh golems.
Nethermancers, as a school/class/tradition/discipline of magic which aren't much at all related to D&D-style necromancers can be found in the Earthdawn RPG. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 23:26:59
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Save-or-die spells exist for almost every school of magic, even those which "oppose" necromancy.
Especially divination.  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 22:54:36
Save-or-die spells exist for almost every school of magic, even those which "oppose" necromancy. Disintegrate, power word: kill, weird, etc. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 05:22:40
Not to mention the save or just die spells |
| Diffan |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 14:59:14
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
One thing thought, is necromancy better in 4e, cos in the previous versions i've seen spells like thay's raise nation and those monumental spells literally blew the socks off me, or is necro in 4e nerf too?
Yes, it's powerful compared to other mage schools and wizard spells within the confines of 4e. Cross-over comparisons between v3.5 and 4e are hard to judge because the games are designes so differently. Necromancers have the ability to by pass the necrotic resistances of monsters and they can raise the dead. Their most powerful spell (finger of death) deals a whopping 10d6 + Intelligence modifier necrotic damage. I'm addition, if the spell drops the target below 1/2 HP it takes an additionl 20 dmg. If the spell drops the target below 20 HP then it dies instantly...
Now this might seem pitiful compared to 3e but keep in mind that most epic tier daily spells deal, at most, 5 to 6d6 damage with a debilitating effect. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 14:05:28
One thing thought, is necromancy better in 4e, cos in the previous versions i've seen spells like thay's raise nation and those monumental spells literally blew the socks off me, or is necro in 4e nerf too? |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 04:05:01
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I was under the impression that Shades don't breed other shades? Or maybe it's both ways? Shades breed true but anyone can become a Shade through the ritual. I do recall that the Shade template/race described in the Races of Faerūn supplement only had their Level Adjustment at LA +4 but then there was errata saying it is +5. Very confusing....
-Shades, as in Shadovar don't. Shades, as in people living on the Plane of Shadows who somehow got the 'Shadow Creature' 3e template, or some other method to becoming a Shade, who knows. But, that's neither here nor there. It's presented in Rof as a race (which Shades are) as a means of expediency- your character is assumed to have undergone the ritual transformation in his/her history, and is already a certified, bonafide Shade by the time the game starts. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 15 May 2011 : 21:13:45
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
So the shade is nerfed? Hah actually i think the shade in 3.5e is better so maybe you could take that and build on it. Besides that the level cap is 30 or can a char just keep going? For a wizard that would be beneficial, cos you can just learn every spell and become quite deadly.
Depends on how you look at it really. I for one never felt Shades (3e) really ever deserved to be played by PCs. I've always put a strict limit on Level Adjustment races, nothing above a LA +2 and that includes any templates added during character creation. So by these standards, the Shade Race is a neat idea as I didn't allow it to be played at my table.
Also, there are two ways to create a Shade. The first and most simplist form for PCs is to just be a Shade featured in the Heroes of Shadow book. But, the racial power is pretty weak (At-will ability to gain concealment or hide in an adjacent ally's shadow as a Standard Action). This is over-shadowed (no pun intended) by the most basic rogue, warlock, and wizard powers in heroic tier (the classes a Shade's attributes would be best suited for). The power is also pretty useless in combat, unless you willing to spend an AP (action point) for it which is just wrong mechanically. Take the weaksauce power and the fact that you automatically start with 1 less healing surge because your infused with Shadow and it vastly detracts from playing "squishy" classes (ie. the classes the Shade's attributes would be best suited for). They automatically gain training in Stealth but I don't think this makes up for the lack of mechanical support to make them a viable race.
Then you have the Template which is very, very powerful and we know Templates really aren't designed for PCs to take. That is, unless you'd like to break it down into a Paragon Path which would be difficult IMO.
So on one hand you have strong villians and monsters to use as a DM and in that regard, Shades are pretty decent. But as a playable race, not very much. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 15 May 2011 : 05:38:15
So the shade is nerfed? Hah actually i think the shade in 3.5e is better so maybe you could take that and build on it. Besides that the level cap is 30 or can a char just keep going? For a wizard that would be beneficial, cos you can just learn every spell and become quite deadly. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 20:24:47
5th level requirement to become a Shade according to Lords of Darkness. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 18:38:54
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Shades were introducted as a race all their own in 4E, something that's different than v3.5/3e. In those days they were templates that were added to any humanoid race (elf, dwarf, human, etc..) but I can see them maintaining the benefits of both their shade aspects (ie template) and the abilities of the Lich (like special attacks, undead traits, d12 HD).
-Races of Faerūn included Shades as a race as well. Throughout the 3e run, there were about fifteen different variations on the theme, some templates, some actual races.
I was under the impression that Shades don't breed other shades? Or maybe it's both ways? Shades breed true but anyone can become a Shade through the ritual. I do recall that the Shade template/race described in the Races of Faerūn supplement only had their Level Adjustment at LA +4 but then there was errata saying it is +5. Very confusing....
And the worst part is the same thing exists in 4E too. In the FRCG, there is a Template you can add to your enemies/bad-guys/etc... that is a Shade Template. It makes any standard monster automatically "Elite" and any "Elite" monster almost a "Solo".
They then create the whole Shade race for 4E in the Heroes of Shadow book, lol. Too bad the race really sinks as I was looking forward to possibly playing one  . I can accept a few traits that aren't all that great (espically their racial power) but when you start automatically dropping healing surges for no real good reason....it's not worth it. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 17:45:54
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Shades were introducted as a race all their own in 4E, something that's different than v3.5/3e. In those days they were templates that were added to any humanoid race (elf, dwarf, human, etc..) but I can see them maintaining the benefits of both their shade aspects (ie template) and the abilities of the Lich (like special attacks, undead traits, d12 HD).
-Races of Faerūn included Shades as a race as well. Throughout the 3e run, there were about fifteen different variations on the theme, some templates, some actual races. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 15:04:27
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Dread Necromancer is good but kinda lacking somewhat then the whole turn into a lich at level 20.
BTW can a char still level even after becoming a lich and what about say another race like in 4e shade becoming a dread necromancer, do they still retain racial abilities even after becoming undead or what?
Hmmm, I think your crossing the rules between editions here. In v3.5, the Dread Necromancer allowed to you gain a sort of Lichdom with all the added benefits of the class plus lich abilities. Since they didn't progress the Dread Necromancer into Epic, I'd assume any sort of level-dependant class features would be maintained (like a specific bonus at certain levels would still keep progressing). So they would still gain levels and so forth.
Shades were introducted as a race all their own in 4E, something that's different than v3.5/3e. In those days they were templates that were added to any humanoid race (elf, dwarf, human, etc..) but I can see them maintaining the benefits of both their shade aspects (ie template) and the abilities of the Lich (like special attacks, undead traits, d12 HD).
The Necromancy school in 4E doens't advance a character into lichdom, so it's perfectly viable for a Shade Necromancer to remain that through his level progression until 30th level. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 14:00:56
Dread Necromancer is good but kinda lacking somewhat then the whole turn into a lich at level 20.
BTW can a char still level even after becoming a lich and what about say another race like in 4e shade becoming a dread necromancer, do they still retain racial abilities even after becoming undead or what? |
| Diffan |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 10:56:56
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I've read complete book of necromacers and love it. Sadly though if they can make an entire class of it in 2e why cant wotc do the same thing in 4e
I had wondered the same thing. When the news of the Heroes of Shadow came out oh....sometime around August of 2010 I just assumed it would contain the Necromancer in a fully self-independent class. But then Essentials hit and from right there, I knew it would be a Mage school. Not to say that it's a bad thing, since the Mage school practically oozes with good stuff AND the Necromancer can still benefit from a lot of great Wizard spells too.
Still....was sorta hoping to see something like the v3.5 Dread Necromancer. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 08:56:47
So they can make more money?
I really don't know why.
Kinda makes sense in the link Sage posted.
Nethermancy reminded me of the Shadowcaster from Tome of Magic, which I thought was a really neat class. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 08:47:14
I've read complete book of necromacers and love it. Sadly though if they can make an entire class of it in 2e why cant wotc do the same thing in 4e |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 08:41:55
Very interesting Sage.
Took Necromancy and split it into two schools.
Will check this book out... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 08:34:35
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Never heard of Nethermancy until today.
You may find this brief coverage to be somewhat enlightening.
|
| Brimstone |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 08:24:57
Complete Book of Necromancers is tremendous!
Never heard of Nethermancy until today. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 May 2011 : 08:10:04
I'd recommend you seek out a copy of 2e's The Complete Book of Necromancers. It remains one of the most detailed treatments on the necromancer and the art of necromancy.
Nethermancy, on the other hand, received great attention in the 4e Heroes of Shadow tome, and, to a lesser extent, The Shadowfell: Gloomwrought & Beyond. |
