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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 00:13:30
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I've noticed a lot lately that there is a lot of sism against males in the Realms and the design of it. For one, most female goddess habe exclusively female clergy or are female dominated to where males are almost never seen. Some of those goddess: Eilistraee (I'm ashamed; quite hypocritical really), Lolth (well, at leastshe makes sense), Selune.
Sexism n the design: Nymps (from what I've seen) are only female (whenin rel life they are both genders), incubi, in an arti le from Dragon I've read, where these hideous male versions of the succubi, but they weren't "seducers". As well, Malcanthet's cult was again predominantly female and only females could get high ranks.
Sigh.......
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 01:13:23
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| Which clergy is mostly male other than Vhaeraun's? |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 01:17:55
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I'm a little bit confused here. "Most" would indicate a majority, and as a whole, I think the Pantheon is well diversified. Men are more likely than women, for example, to be warriors and thus more of them worship Tempus. The drow society is matriarchical, so Lolth and Eilistraee are not the strongest examples of feministic bias in the Realms. The dwarven pantheon seems biased toward male-driven roles and gods at a glance, but female dwarves must worship someone.
Insofar as few creatures, you must remember that nymphs and succubus/incubus are based on real-world lore, which was written by men, with women considered being unworthy of scribing stories for most of history. (I don't approve, I just state a fact) Mermaids came about before mermen in lore, and fairies as well. On an admittedly-streched counterpoint, the "Smurfs" didn't have any females at all as first written, and then one was written in originally. Thankfully, nobody has introduced them to the Realms, but many creatures are juxtaposed from our own lore, so that must be taken into account.
As a whole, I don't find the Realms sexist at all, with strong women and men alike. Although a lot of strong women are portrayed in Realms Novels, I think it noteworthy that above all the gods is an overlord at least portrayed as male. Ed, Bob, and Elaine (the three most prominent authors in my readings prior to 3E) have a very considerable amount of strong men, and women, too.
I'm interested in other examples and more than willing to be corrected, but I'm still not seeing enough of a pattern to support a claim of sexism in the Realms.
My thoughts: take them as you will.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 01:26:57
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
I've noticed a lot lately that there is a lot of sism against males in the Realms and the design of it. For one, most female goddess habe exclusively female clergy or are female dominated to where males are almost never seen. Some of those goddess: Eilistraee (I'm ashamed; quite hypocritical really), Lolth (well, at leastshe makes sense), Selune.
Sexism n the design: Nymps (from what I've seen) are only female (whenin rel life they are both genders), incubi, in an arti le from Dragon I've read, where these hideous male versions of the succubi, but they weren't "seducers". As well, Malcanthet's cult was again predominantly female and only females could get high ranks.
Sigh.......
Where do you come up with Selûne only having female priests? I know of nothing to support that, and it directly contradicts bits like this one: "Selûne’s priesthood is as diverse as her worshipers, with hers being truly a faith that promotes equal access and understanding."
Or how about this one? "All are to be made welcome in her faith and seen as equal, and fellow Selûnites should be aided freely, as if they were one's dearest friends."
That's pages 135 and 136 of Faiths & Avatars. And I'm doubting you're thinking of Sune, either, because we have canon male followers of hers, like Adon before he converted to Mystra 2.0.
Just because one or two deities favor one gender, and because some critters only have one gender, it is far from making the overall setting sexist.
And with some of the critters you mention, their genders are not dictated by the setting, but by the overall game system. And a lot of those particular things come not from designer fiat, but by the mythology from which such critters originate.
Females hold high positions in a lot of the nations in the Realms, some of the dominant deities of the Realms (particularly Mystra, Chauntea, Shar, and Selûne) are female, and some of the most powerful NPCs of the setting are female -- like the Seven Sisters, two of whom also rule nations.
And other than those one or two deities, there are few, if any, gender-based restrictions of any kind in the Realms.
So I don't know where this sexism you're seeing is. It's not in the Realms that I've been following for 20+ years. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Mar 2011 01:28:33 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 01:45:13
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| Eh, I think I accidently pulled the Selune having a mostly female clergy from 4e, lol. The thing with Eilistraee's clergy being exclusively female makes her one of the biggest hypocrits I've ever seen. There were male faeries a long time ago too. They were mostly forgotten by main society because of men. Incubi are supposed to be sexual just lke their female counterparts, RR lore has them seducing men, women, monks, ladies, etc. So why did they make them look like monsters? Nobody I know would want to have sex with golem. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 01:52:54
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Wooly has the right of it.
Plus, I wouldn't base the concept of sexism in certain Realms clergies based on what we've seen/read in the novels. They're largely only a snapshot of how clergy operate, as Ed has noted in the past. The various clergies are often too wide and too expansive for such concepts to wholly have meaning -- unless it's specifically noted in the lore. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 01:55:44
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Eh, I think I accidently pulled the Selune having a mostly female clergy from 4e, lol. The thing with Eilistraee's clergy being exclusively female makes her one of the biggest hypocrits I've ever seen. There were male faeries a long time ago too. They were mostly forgotten by main society because of men. Incubi are supposed to be sexual just lke their female counterparts, RR lore has them seducing men, women, monks, ladies, etc. So why did they make them look like monsters? Nobody I know would want to have sex with golem.
Remember, the Realms is a fantasy setting. It doesn't do for us to draw such conclusions using our own attitudes and perspectives on sexual practices that are evident among the races across Faerûn.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 02:21:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And this doesn't balance out the mostly male membership of most other clergy? Not to mention that most demons are "male", as are satyrs. (I've NEVER seen a case of a female satyr- in fact, they are supposed to be the male analog of a nymph, which is why nymphs only come in female!)
Concerning "female satyrs," those are known in 2nd and 3.X edition as korreds (Powers & Pantheons and Faiths & Avatars entries on Shiallia). |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 02:31:35
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| Eilistraee is NOT exclusively female, actually. As far back as the Demihuman Deities book in 2nd ed, there are instances of her having t least a few males among her clergy. Predominantly female, yes, but by no means exclusive to them. She simply appeals more to females than to most male drow (or others) but even Quilue had a consort. There is also a ritual mentioned called the Changedance, in which a male priest of her faith undergoes a temporary gender change as part of his initiation, and also for certain rites of the faith. Also, in the Lady Penitant trilogy, she did in fact accept males in her clergy. (Though admittedly this was after she had killed Vaerhaun, and took his priests into her faith.) |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 02:38:07
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| I would hope there is a changedance for females to change into a male..... |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 02:39:11
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For what purpose?
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 03:00:38
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| Well, I suppose it's POSSIBLE, but what would be the point? The purpose of the Changedance is for males in her service to understand the female perspective. (And is a great idea for ANY male, IMHO- trust me, guys have NO IDEA what women deal with. PMS, pregnancy, birth, male chauvanism, "equal" rights/opportunity- it truly IS a man's world, and most guys are oblivious to the difficulties for women.) I can only imagine how much harder it is for the typical woman of most races in the Realms. Laws might be more biased toward men, for one, and then there is the fact that there are no modern conveniences to aid in birth, pregnancy, or other "women's concerns". Perhaps Eilistraee's clergy have the right idea? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 03:07:45
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| Several, I imagine. None of which should be elaborated upon in polite company. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 03:10:47
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| That idea is no better than male chauvanism. All of thse things females gthrough are just natural-they make them no better or less than males. In the Reals, I believe Ed has said that there's no gender bias. In RR a LOT of Europe is more equal to genders (specifically northern and western Europe). Did you know Iceland is the most gender equal country in the world? I think if they have a changedance, it needs to be for boh geers as to get the feelings and views of the opposite sex( not stating that the genders habe different ideas about things, I just don't quite know how to put it into words). |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 03:46:36
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Eilistraee is a drow goddess. Where she may embrace male worshippers, her goal is to bring the drow to peace and the surface instead of war and the Underdark. Eilistraee is not indiciated of the entire pantheon, and her edicts and rituals are neither required to nor are gender-neutral.
We cannot impose our point of view into the Realms, especially with respect to the deities. They are tasked with upholding their portfolios, nothing more, nothing less. Eilistraee's main purpose is to oppose Lolth. Turning priestesses into men would not likely bring about worship as females are dominant in drow society. The goal is to attract worshippers, not make them run away.
Again, this is how I expect a drow female in the Realms would see it; it has nothing to do with real-life attitudes or beliefs. That is why the Realms are a fictional, fantasy setting.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 03:49:12
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
I've noticed a lot lately that there is a lot of sism against males in the Realms and the design of it. For one, most female goddess habe exclusively female clergy or are female dominated to where males are almost never seen. Some of those goddess: Eilistraee (I'm ashamed; quite hypocritical really), Lolth (well, at leastshe makes sense), Selune.
Sexism n the design: Nymps (from what I've seen) are only female (whenin rel life they are both genders), incubi, in an arti le from Dragon I've read, where these hideous male versions of the succubi, but they weren't "seducers". As well, Malcanthet's cult was again predominantly female and only females could get high ranks.
Sigh.......
I don't think so.
Look at the leaders of some the great nations/cities: Thay [Tam], Shade and Sembia [Telamont], Cormyr[Azoun], Luskan[the Captains/Arcane Brotherhood], Waterdeep [Lords, mostly males], Halruaa [Zalathorn], Chesenta [Tchazzar], Zhentil Keep [The Roach], Murghôm, [The Dragon Princes]. I would even say that most of the people who achieved greater prominence and status are males, Elminster, Khelben, Larloch, and Sammaster among them. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 04:16:15
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Okay, I think it might be time for a little perspective.
Sexism isn't just an imbalance between males and females in a given area. Some things can be exclusively female and some exclusively male without any evident sexism. For something to be sexist, there must be prejudice based on gender.
Many women, both in real life and the Realms, tend to identify better with a female goddess. This, just by itself, is not sexism by any stretch of the imagination. It's identification by similarity. Similarly, men may identify better with a male god. And again, this is not sexism.
Eilistraee's clergy was not sexist. Certain traditions were exclusively female, yes, but why is this sexist? Remember that these are drow, where females are culturally more likely to be priests. Furthermore, they've just taken the giant step of leaving Lolth for a good goddess. Eilistraee's clergy was unbalanced in a female to male ratio, yes, but that isn't sexism. When Eilistraee became the Masked Lady (briefly), her clergy shifted to a more balanced ratio. And because it was Eilistraee that survived instead of Vhaeraun, it was the male priests who had the most adjustment to make. To her credit, she modified her stance on rituals and opened them up. That's the antithesis of sexism.
Briefly commenting on the "changedance" this didn't have anything to do with PMS, menses, pregnancy, birth, or anything technically physiological, that's just a rather silly misinterpretation. Likewise, the changedance doesn't change the spirit, so one isn't remade psychologically female. But to actually BE in the sisterhood of Eilistraee (before the Masked Lady event), you needed to experience sisterhood, which means being female. Note that Eilistraee doesn't have anyone who has undergone the changedance engage in sex, experience pregnancy, or the like. Still, one cannot be a "sister" if one is male; one could be a "brother" only. Certain mystical mysteries are female-only in nature, just as certain mystical mysteries are male-only in nature: and because Eilistraee is female, she wants you to know her deepest mystical secrets as her sister. Not just the "mysteries" of PMS and cramps. And no, this doesn't make Eilistraee a hypocrite.
As to the "nymphs were both sexes" issue, this is a modern fallacy. Nymphs come from Greek mythology, and NONE of them were male. Sorry, that's just how they were viewed. The point of them is that they were minor nature divinities/spirits who could mate with male gods, satyrs, or even powerful human males. There were a variety of nature spirits (and the like) that were male, but not nymphs. You have to remember that many of these spirits, fairies and even monsters have been divorced from their original mythological purposes and functions when they're imported into the game and the Realms.
On the whole, I don't find the Realms to be sexist at all, rather just the opposite. In the real world, don't kid yourself, there's gender bias everywhere. Just different levels and flavors of it.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 04:22:46
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Well, said, Eltheron. Couldn't have said it better myself. 
Actually, I would have if I wasn't feeling a little under the weather at the moment.  |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 04:30:49
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
All of those things females go through are just natural- they make them no better or less than males. I think if they have a changedance, it needs to be for both genders as to get the feelings and views of the opposite sex( not stating that the genders have different ideas about things, I just don't quite know how to put it into words).
What females go through is natural- this is true. But we are talking about physical MAJOR changes and traumas that are, to be very blunt, both painful and life-changing in many ways. A female's body goes through a number of changes during the course of child-bearing and rearing that no male will ever understand fully. (Which is one of the main reasons for the dance in FR- it gives men a small taste of what the women must deal with, sometimes lasting for several months or even a year or more in some instances.)
I don't see how having a few (minor) deities who prefer female priests constitutes sexism in any event. As in every faith, there will be those who feel that one gender has more to offer the priesthood. It has nothing to do with which one is "better" than the other- it's more a matter of which one is more suited to the tenets of the faith itself.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 04:46:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
What females go through is natural- this is true. But we are talking about physical MAJOR changes and traumas that are, to be very blunt, both painful and life-changing in many ways. A female's body goes through a number of changes during the course of child-bearing and rearing that no male will ever understand fully. (Which is one of the main reasons for the dance in FR- it gives men a small taste of what the women must deal with, sometimes lasting for several months or even a year or more in some instances.)
Again, it's NOT about physiology, it's about culture.
Eilistraee doesn't want you to feel what it's like to have menses, or PMS, or the physiology of being female.
She wants a male priest to know what it's like to be a sister-priest in their / her culture.
As you know, in drow culture the priests of Lolth are female. They experience power, and dominate others in Lolth's name, often with immense cruelty. There is zero experience of being sisterly, where you care for another person. That's what she wants both females and males to feel.
Being a "sister" in Eilistraee's priesthood (again, pre-Masked Lady) involves a profound change in the way one looks at relationships. How best can Eilistraee "show" this bond to a male, who has spent a lifetime evading dangerous Lolthian females? The changedance. It not only demonstrates what it means to be a priest to a male, but a bonded sister.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 04:47:35
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Well said, Eltheron. Perhaps you are Chosen of the Binder or the Lord of all Glyphs?
Alystra makes good points, too, in that the female body undergoes more physiological changes in life than males, although I'm not certain that this precludes men from understanding things in similar fashion to a woman categorically. But, to her point, it is within Eilistraee's prerogative to demand whatever she wishes of her faithful, and her faithful to decide if her price is worth their worship.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 05:05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
Well said, Eltheron. Perhaps you are Chosen of the Binder or the Lord of all Glyphs?
Something of the kind, yes. 
quote:
Alystra makes good points, too, in that the female body undergoes more physiological changes in life than males, although I'm not certain that this precludes men from understanding things in similar fashion to a woman categorically. But, to her point, it is within Eilistraee's prerogative to demand whatever she wishes of her faithful, and her faithful to decide if her price is worth their worship.
Indeed, there are significant physiological differences that one could experience with a gender switch. I also agree that Eilistraee can demand whatever she wants of her priesthood. I'm just mentioning what I think is a mischaracterization of what Eilistraee is supposedly shooting for.
Consider the gender-change that Mystra made Elminster undergo as Elmara. That was definitely for the purpose of being physiologically female, so he could better understand the inherently female nature of the Weave. Very different from Eilistraee's purpose, which was far more culturally needed than physiologically needed.
With Mystra, Elminster needed to feel the inherently female character of the Weave. One can "control" magic as a male, but to understand its nuances and work with its deeper mysteries, this could only be understood by making him female for a time. Magic in the Realms is well, feminine. With Mystra's change of Elminster, Alystra's examples are very appropriate.
With Eilistraee, it's not about the physiological changes but the cultural mindset specific to the drow. The entirety of drow culture is based on female power, but a "kill everything I cannot control" kind of female power. How can a male ever start to feel equal, much less a brother in the priesthood, without experiencing being female for a short time? They don't even know brotherhood as we know it, much less sisterhood.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 05:10:15
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Eltheron, you make some good points as well, but the main thing I am getting at is that "sisterhood" to a woman means bonding with another on a level of understanding what that other person goes through. Women bond very differently than men do- and a large part of that is due to the physiological changes they undergo in various times of life. To understand another female's POV, one must understand where she is coming from both mentally and physically. This is not JUST menses, birth, and the like, but that makes up a large part of it. Spend a few minutes eavesdropping on women in "bonding" conversations, and you'd see what I mean- they talk about their daily troubles, thoughts, and physical and emotional pains. This is what sisterhood is really all about- having an intimate knowledge of those "mysteries". (Many of which ARE centered on womens' physiological states, as per shamanistic or cultural rites of passage.) To understand a female perspective on life, birth, or any other concerns of a woman, (most of which are still centered on her role as mother and care-giver, even in this day and age!) one has to BECOME one. And Eilistraee realized this and accounted for it. Thus the ritual. Sisterhood is not just a state of comradery or affection. Unlike with males, who are less demonstrative with emotions, women truly do bond on a much deeper level that includes their physical differences.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 05:40:25
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Alystra, I think what you're saying is very accurate for Mystra's change of Elminster to Elmara, but I'm not sure it holds up for Eilistraee's priestesses. For one thing, I'd argue that these drow priestesses are just starting to understand what it means to be a different kind of female than in Lolthite society. They wouldn't have the level of bonding between sisters that takes place in surface Realms, as Eilistraee would be just starting them on the path. For another thing, a "changedanced" male to female would be known as "actually a male" throughout the Eilistraeean community.
I may have been a little unclear in what I really meant by "sisterhood" in that I didn't mean a male would "be sisters" with other (actual) female priests, but more that he would experience being a sister with Eilistraee herself. After all, Eilistraee is teaching not only the male priests how to be sisters, but all of the ritual dances are meant to bring the female priests toward a sense of sisterhood with Eilistraee herself (and to a lesser degree with each other).
Without a doubt, consider the following: you're a male priest and you go through the changedance. How do the other (actual) female priests of the community view you? You're a male, despite being in a female body for a short time. The others are not likely to start bonding deeply with you and opening up their secrets simply because you're a female for a short period of time. They saw you change with the magic, and they'll be the ones changing you back. Rather, you are briefly female for the purpose of dancing as a female and approaching Eilistraee herself to experience sisterhood. Yet Eilistraee, also, still knows you're a male and also knows you'll change back. Ultimately, Eilistraee is teaching males about brotherhood with the changedance.
Lastly, the whole claim about women "truly bonding on a much deeper level" than men in our RL society, that's mainstream media hogwash. Men can bond just as well as women. The fact that they demonstrate it in different ways than women usually do just means that they're men, not "inferior" or "less deep" in their bonding.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 28 Mar 2011 05:43:17 |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 06:12:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Lastly, the whole claim about women "truly bonding on a much deeper level" than men in our RL society, that's mainstream media hogwash. Men can bond just as well as women. The fact that they demonstrate it in different ways than women usually do just means that they're men, not "inferior" or "less deep" in their bonding.
Absolutely, and it's a delightful thing to see when it happens. Not that anyone outside of that exclusive bond will likely ever "see" much of it, in many cases.
On the issue of grouping sex (biological) and gender (psychological/sociological) into a single concept, as seems to be happening throughout much of this thread...despite being female, my own deepest bonding with another female tends to be a bit more masculine in terms of not doing a lot of deep emotional talking, keeping conversations more triangular and "practical" but still highly significant, supportive, and revealing. I absolutely hate discussing my bodily functions, I don't care if someone else has the same ones; if I'm not desperate to learn what to do for a particular illness symptom, it's none of their business, to put it politely (granted, I've never experienced pregnancy and the massive changes that go with it, but I can only assume my lifelong response to such "sharing" would carry over). Can we not degenerate into stating biological majority tendencies as psychological absolutes? Especially when the evolving topic really seems to be more---or as much---about masculine and feminine than about male and female... |
"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
Edited by - Laerrigan on 28 Mar 2011 06:25:43 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 06:34:55
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quote:
Laerriganquote:
Eltheron
Lastly, the whole claim about women "truly bonding on a much deeper level" than men in our RL society, that's mainstream media hogwash. Men can bond just as well as women. The fact that they demonstrate it in different ways than women usually do just means that they're men, not "inferior" or "less deep" in their bonding.
Absolutely, and it's a delightful thing to see when it happens. Not that anyone outside of that exclusive bond will likely ever "see" much of it, in many cases.
This, too, is a misconception created by cultural media and popular expections. I'm unashamed to admit my comraderie, affection and even love for my closest friends, even in public, even when they're male. True, as a straight guy (mostly surrounded by straight people) with absolutely zero sexual interest in or attraction to my male friends I'll demonstrate these feelings in a context that's appropriate and (usually) unembarassing. By the same token I can be companionable (and "nerd out") with my female friends without becoming romantically or sexually involved. Socially mature people are capable of emotionally differentiating between (and separating) love, affection, friendship, attraction, and sex ... the only real cure for those who cannot correctly make these distinctions is to gain social confidence. Perhaps it helps that I don't really give a damn what immature people might think of me, lol. If ye don't like it then don't look.
Back to the Realms ...
There's a good balance between both genders (and no small number of "other" genders) evident in all the prominent NPCs. Indeed, also the deities. Most faiths absolutely welcome and support people of any gender. Any bias they might have against, say, homosexuals is a product of their culture and not necessarily related to the teachings of their gods. Of course, there's no requirement for all the churches of any given deity share a uniform standard, any given "faith" can (and most do) vary significantly from city to city. TSR-WotC's "official" position seems to generally steer clear of socially provocative and controversial content, though they rarely (if ever) go so far as to outright exclude the possibility of "unacceptable" content. Something of a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude; and, personally one I happen to find agreeable since (for me at least) the focus of the Realms should be high fantasy, not on the sordid private details of NPC erotica. So yes, it's true to some extent that our societal sexual mores do have an impact in the Realms.
Note that Ed Greenwood and other Realms designers and authors have endured years of endless haranguing over the matter, and note also that (at least in Ed's case) they have deftly professed how their own personal sexual orientations and preferences have influenced (or not influenced) the Realms. Making an effort to search Candlekeep's archives will reveal more than I care to say on the matter - and to be honest, I really don't even think it's particularly appropriate or relevant to D&D in any event.
Certainly there are creatures (dryads, nymphs, satyrs, korreds, succubi, incubi, etc) which are always given one gender or the other. That's an important part of the mythologies and legends from which they originate; ye'd be better off studying why the ancient Greeks created them thusly, not asking why Gygax and Ed did. Certainly there are also groups and organizations formed from these same creatures which are dominated by one gender, that's a no-brainer.
Yes, there is some sexism in the Realms, yes there are chauvinists and misogynists, yes there is chivalry (and ye might find it informative to read what Ed and others have written about such chivalry), yes there are some cults and faiths and groups and organizations which impose a gender exclusions. Remember that the Realms exist in a fantasy world, a complex place populated by many peoples and races and cultures. Ye'd be as much in error applying a blanket generalization about sexual standards to the Realms as ye would to the many peoples of our own world. In fact, ye'd learn much more about the Realms by looking around and learning about our own world. The greatest error we commit when seeing the Realms (or our own world) is only looking at things we expect to see ...
Finally, of course, ye may shape yer own Realms in any manner ye find most pleasing. If sexual content is important to ye then put some thought into making it an important part of yer world. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 28 Mar 2011 07:17:22 |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 06:54:11
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Total agreement here. I did say "in many cases" (sorry if it seemed like the kind of generalization I'm trying to steer things away from). "A context that's appropriate and unembarassing" can sometimes be too subtle (or private, personally and tacitly understood) for others to notice or recognize as a deep bond, though, if they're looking for more classic feminine expression. Hence my notion of others often not seeing the bond that's there, due to their own expectations and to media portrayals. Most likely, no one would ever guess my depth of feeling and attachment toward my best (non-husband) friend in seeing our interactions, unless they happened to be particularly insightful and could observe us for a while.
quote:
Perhaps it helps that I don't really give a damn what immature people might think of me, lol. If ye don't like it then don't look.
Awesome, lol.
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"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
Edited by - Laerrigan on 28 Mar 2011 06:54:37 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 07:17:36
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I'm not sure I see any difference between what Mystra did with Elminster and what Eilistraee's male priests would go through. It's the same thing, really. And for much the same reason, to boot. If the Weave is inherently female, so are most of Elistraee's mysteries- moon rituals, dancing (which is, to be frank, a mostly feminine art/pursuit), and nurturing and bringing joy to others. Also, you're assuming those priestesses are converting from Lolth, which only a small number of her followers do- most are raised in the faith by families who had already converted, so they learn that bond of sisterhood from an early age. However, there IS a larger number of her male followers who are converts- especially after Vaerhaun's death. Most males learn of her faith only after escaping to the surface, where they find her shrines already running. So it would be more important to show the males a different kind of feminine mind-set than it would be for the women. Even the most devout of Loth's followers still understands the ties of "sisterhood" that a matriarchal society relies upon, although it would be more pragmatic and opportunistic, to be sure. I'll be the first to admit that even be-otches can stick together when it comes to the important issues. It's not nearly as big a jump from that "women are superior" to "all are equally important" way of thinking for a female as it would be for a male who's been oppressed his entire life to accept the notion that he's no longer forced to obey every whim of a priestess. Equality is often easier to accept for the former master than for the one who was enslaved.
Also, the Changedance seems to be more an initiation than anything else- it's only as permanent as the recipient CHOOSES it to be, so their actual gender is not even the issue at all. It's the fact that they were WILLING to undergo it and expand their perspective in the first place that is important, showing that they really are dedicated to the faith. For a male to choose to become a priest of that faith, and be willing to change their entire identity for as long as needed to be accepted and to understand the inherent nature of that faith, shows how dedicated they are to promoting those beliefs. That is the point of it, after all. I would imagine that some priestesses might also choose to change for a time, to learn the other side of the coin, if only to see what it is like for male drow in other places. But among most races, it is the women who are often seen as "less" than their counterparts, so that is another reason for the change- for males to see that women are also subject to those same types of abuse (and worse) as they were in Lolth's cities. That Changedanced male isn't trying to hide his true gender, he's trying to learn how the other half lives and feels things, which is in fact very different. Women are just more emotionally tuned, so he'd notice the difference very quickly- probably the first time someone made affectionate overtures! Likely to be confusing to a gender-altered male at first, I would imagine. Love is not something they would be used to receiving. And although the other priestesses would indeed know he had been changed, the point is that he was willing to undergo the change, not what he actually is. That leads to greater acceptance from them, and the knowledge that the male is "one of them", regardless of his actual gender. In fact, it's only ever required ONCE- the fact that many male priests actually CHOOSE to do so again later, and sometimes for longer, shows that the dance is more about acceptance and community than about who is what gender.
On the subject of deeper bonds: Perhaps "deeper" means something different to me than it does to you- personally, I've rarely known two men to bond on the kind of very intimate emotional level that many women do- women will share their deepest secrets and cry, rant, laugh, or cuddle with each other in ways that men never would. This is what I mean- they are much more inclined to form that bond in the first place, where men tend to be less open and sharing of themselves with other men. That NEED to bond just is not there to the same degree. They are taught at an early age to be strong and self-reliant, to not show excessive emotions, and to keep their feelings to themselves. Women don't do that for the most part. So they are more likely to have that bond than men are. That's not media hogwash, that's basic gender psychology. We're wired differently, to need and want different things, and for different reasons. Men generally bond in a more competitive and social context, while women do it in a more personal and close "family" way. It's just part of their nature as mothers and care-takers.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 08:44:03
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I suppose it's important to also note that the Realms were crafted to (loosely) resemble ancient, medieval, and renaissance eras from our own history. Gender roles were inarguably defined in a rather rigid context in our world during these periods, our egalitarian concepts (which are still far from perfect) are a modern innovation and by no means applied globally to all societies. It's up to individual authors, DMs, and players to interpret this and establish some "comfortable" balance; it's perfectly reasonable to expect the "official" Wizbro stance to conform to the accepted norms of our society, since after all they can only try to sell products which (the majority of) people will want to buy.
Again to the subject of bonding; it certainly is important to me that I be manly, strong, and self-reliant, <RRR!>. It's also good to know that my friends never hesitate to lend me their strength whenever (they think) I need it ... even in situations where "society" might actively challenge or discourage such displays of male bonding. Real men understand themselves and each other, there's no shame in being able to express close friendship. There's also no requirement for sex to be a factor (beyond the usual extravagantly competitive and dimunitive displays of manly hazing, of course). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 28 Mar 2011 08:45:37 |
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Calmar
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 15:13:46
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
I would hope there is a changedance for females to change into a male.....
I agree. That's like saying you had to be a big, strong man in order to execute Tempus' rites properly, because soft, gentle and fragile females were incapable of experiencing manly, testosterone-laden fighting spirit and lacked a warrior's heart. However, that's not even true in the real world, and less so in D&D-land, where no decent person claims that women would be per se inferior to men, and where there is also no mechanical influence of a person's sex on her or his abilities.
Besides, I suppose this wierd Eilistraeean gender-bender rite might originate from some guy who likes the image of a dude being turned into a juicy drow babe, in the first place (And the fact that most female drow seem to dress like sl*ts is another issue...).
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Sexism in the Realms?
