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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 20:18:11
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Does anyone know how much a Cormyian gold piece weighs? To give my players an idea of how much their acquired gold weighs, I'd like to put together a bag or box weighing that amount for them to try carrying.
Afet
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Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 16 Apr 2008 20:20:37
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 21:30:19
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A Cormyrean golden lion (gp) is essentially a "core" gold piece in weight- just about 50 per pound.
For those keeping score, that's 0.32 ounces, or 9.0719 grams (you can safely round to 9.072g) per coin.
That's assuming, of course, that these are legitimate coins of proper weight, and not mixed-metal, forged, counterfeit or shaved coins.
As an aside, shaving coins isn't usually a good way of making money, because taking more than about 2.5% of the coin's total weight (reducing its weight from 0.02 pounds to 0.0195 poumds) makes it immediately detectable (both visibly, and by weight). 40 expertly shaved coins weigh exactly the same as 39 genuine coins (0.78 pounds), making it a labor-intensive way of making money usually only engaged in by people who have long periods of time to hold onto--but not spend a coin of--someone else's coin, in very large amounts.
That is, people who hold onto cash for adventurers...
Watching 200 gp for the local adventuring band while they head off to the local dungeon is only going to net you, at most, 5 gp more than whatever your stated fee is, and that's only if you're skilled enough to both properly shave the coins, to mint forgeries of Cormyrean or some other currency, and fool the adventurers into believing you haven't done anything wrong. |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 22:10:49
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Excellent. Thank you. Assuming the info you just gave was canon, perhaps you would consider expanding the currently very brief description of the Golden Lion on the FR wiki:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Golden_lion_%28coin%29
Cheers,
Afet |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2008 : 08:05:36
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Imazing info! Thanks for sharing this Garen!
Now asking the question raised by Afet already one more time: Is this canon lore? |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2008 : 13:31:42
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Cormyrean gold pieces are equivalent to the "standard" D&D gold piece, which have been 50 gp/pound for as long as I can remember (and care to look for references about). Cormyr has long been one of those nations that's considered a baseline currency, with coin valued at true weights and honored in most markets.
The bit about coin-shaving is drawn from lore, play experience, common sense, and a little math. It shouldn't be considered canon, but a "perfectly logical extension of existing lore." |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2008 : 18:25:04
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The weight given is believable. The British Sovereign for example is just under 8 grams. But I checked my 2nd Edition Core Rulebooks and couldn't find any weight references for coins. You would think they would have listed it under encumbrance, but I couldn't find it. Anyone?
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Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2008 : 19:00:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
The weight given is believable. The British Sovereign for example is just under 8 grams. But I checked my 2nd Edition Core Rulebooks and couldn't find any weight references for coins. You would think they would have listed it under encumbrance, but I couldn't find it. Anyone?
I don't have a page number, because I made my pdf from the rtf file on the Core Rules CD-ROM... But in the 2E DMG, in Appendix 1, after the Treasure Tables, there is this note:
quote:
When treasure is found in the form of coins, it will normally be bagged or kept in
chests unless it has been gathered by unintelligent monsters. Coins (regardless of metal)
normally weigh in at 50 to the pound.
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2008 : 22:22:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't have a page number, because I made my pdf from the rtf file on the Core Rules CD-ROM... But in the 2E DMG, in Appendix 1, after the Treasure Tables, there is this note:
"When treasure is found in the form of coins, it will normally be bagged or kept in chests unless it has been gathered by unintelligent monsters. Coins (regardless of metal)normally weigh in at 50 to the pound."
Thanks Wooly. I found it. For future reference, the page number in the 2e DMG is 134. Garen, please do consider expanding the FR Wiki stub on the Golden Lion.
Afet |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 17 Apr 2008 22:27:01 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2008 : 22:47:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
Garen, please do consider expanding the FR Wiki stub on the Golden Lion.
Unfortunately, Afet, I don't really have the time or the interest to invest in that sort of project, even on a single-case basis. Individual games, my writing, and Candlekeep take up most of my out-of-work time, and I risk getting pulled into another distraction.
I'm also, frankly, wary about the FR Wiki's chances of survival once DDI is in full swing, but that's a discussion for another time and place. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 03:47:08
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If I recollect correctly, the orignial D&D gold piece weighed 1/10th of a pound (!). Whether Troy or Avoirdupois, that's one heavy mamma-jamma! Imagine buying a belt pouch (plain) for the price of a Krugerrand or a Panda or a Double Eagle -- and then having to throw in a few silver dollars, too! Early D&D assumed a highly inflationary economy in which adventurers were constantly hauling gold into town on the stooped shoulders of their henchfolk.
In the real world, circulating gold coins have tended to be about 3 to 10 grams (look up "florin" and "ducat" at your favorite reference site). I am a "goldbug" and personally think that gold's natural market price should be about $1000 current money. Assuming a gold coin about the size of a US Dime (a little more than 5 grams, but real gold coins like the ducat were much thinner), a historically accurate gold coin should have about US $100 buying power. If a silver piece is 1/10th that value, that means that one silver piece a day is about $10.00 in buying power -- what would be a decent day's pay in the developing world or a post-deduction paycheck at a McJob. Looking at my 1st edition DMG I see that a blacksmith should get 30 gold a month, or $3000 in buying power as I am guesstimating it; chop out ten per cent for a church tithe and twenty to thirty per cent for taxes, bribes, and extortion, and -- voila! -- you have the fairly accurate earning power for a skilled worker who owns his own shop (or stall, more likely).
Look at the wages being paid to American mercenaries ... whoops! ... "private contractors" ... in Iraq, and the few gold a day that the books say that fantasy Medieval-era mercenaries should be earning is fairly close to what their real-world counterparts actually do earn today. And just as in any modern "police action" war zone, bars, brothels, and what-not are going to raise their prices to get as much of that gold as possible; again, we see this happening in the real world. (A former Vietnamese co-worker of mine, who had studied economics at the Sornbonne, told me that what really did in his country wasn't guerrilla war, it was the enormous spending power of Americans, which skewed the South Vietnamese economy towards "service" and away from any sort of meaningful production, and which demoralized the low-paid Vietnamese army and police, who had to turn to corruption to keep up with the Smiths, the Jones, and John Frum. Ask a Canadian actor what it's like to work alongside American actors and you will get a very similar response -- guaranteed.)
So, just as in Order of the Stick, the adventurers come into town, prices skyrocket and new taxes appear, and anyone who doesn't have anything marketable besides their own bodies becomes a henchman or a prostitute or a starving beggar ("Please, Gods of the South, let there be a paladin with them, so that she can pay alms to me!").
The weights I've used above are all just guesstimates, as I've indicated. I wrote a detailed paper on Medieval currency many years ago, entitled, "L. s. d." (that's "livre sou denier" or "pound, shilling pence," you hippies!), but I don't have a copy at hand, and after about fifteen years my own writings start to become hazy memories for me ... too many pounds, shillings, and pence back in my own hippie days, I think. . . . .
I would like to know how Garen Thal worked out those wonderful figures on shaved money (surely it was more than just a handy calculator!), but I would contradict him on the likelihood of "shaving." When people are eating raw rats, the small amount of silver or gold which may be scraped off the edge of a stray coin (undoubtedly "found") can mean the difference between life and death in the squallid gutters. It's only rich merchants, tax collectors, and mintmasters who worry about shaved coins, particularly since most governments throughout the past 2600 years have sooner or later taken to debasing their coins with base metals and forcing the public to accept them as being full value -- it's Gresham's Law -- "Bad money drives out good," or, put another way, if you found a 1964 dime, would you spend it?
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 04:54:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I would like to know how Garen Thal worked out those wonderful figures on shaved money (surely it was more than just a handy calculator!), but I would contradict him on the likelihood of "shaving." When people are eating raw rats, the small amount of silver or gold which may be scraped off the edge of a stray coin (undoubtedly "found") can mean the difference between life and death in the squallid gutters. It's only rich merchants, tax collectors, and mintmasters who worry about shaved coins, particularly since most governments throughout the past 2600 years have sooner or later taken to debasing their coins with base metals and forcing the public to accept them as being full value -- it's Gresham's Law -- "Bad money drives out good," or, put another way, if you found a 1964 dime, would you spend it?
Actually, as with most ideas, it had to do with a topic that came up when considering the shaving of coins for RP.
The above has to do with the shaving of coins as a regular practice, not in an emergency situation. Trying to pass a shaved coin is enough to get you arrested in almost any society that has official mints, and no upstanding merchant is going to accept the shavings for anything of worth--with the possible exception of a jeweler, who wouldn't let beggars in the door in the first place.
The only way to spend coin shavings is to melt it down and forge it into something spendable: a false coin or crude jewelry. A beggar, in most cases, who "found" a coin would certainly try and stretch the money as far as it would go, but seeing as the penalties for counterfeiting (and, yes, shaving a coin and trying to pass it is counterfeiting in Cormyr, and will get you a mind-reaming no matter how loud your protestations of having "found" the silver piece) are rather harsh, it would be safer to merely pay a merchant or ask for kindness than to try passing a shaving off.
To use a "real-world," more modern example, coin shaving is kind of like the scheme from Office Space, wherein fractional cents from many bank transactions are "skimmed" into a separate account. It's only after the spoils are gathered that the results gain any real value, and the danger involved becomes worth the risk. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 15:35:37
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This latter scheme that Garen Thal mentions is known as "salami slicing," and in my daily professional work, over the last two decades, I have learned just how common it is. As in: thousands upon THOUSANDS of instances at all sorts of institutions concerned with handling finances. Increasing use of computers (remember the controversy over a particular edition of Microsoft Excel "rounding down" ratios and decimals?) and, ironically, increasing computer security, have made it much, much easier to do.
Coin shaving, BTW, was almost always practiced by wearing around the edges of coins, which is the real reason most modern coins have that "toothed gear" knurling.
love to all,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 18 Apr 2008 15:37:48 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 16:23:01
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Interesting--I actually never knew anything about coin-shaving until now. You learn something new everyday... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 23:02:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
(snip)
Coin shaving, BTW, was almost always practiced by wearing around the edges of coins, which is the real reason most modern coins have that "toothed gear" knurling.
love to all,
THO
It's called "milling," and from what Ed has told me in the past about Faerunian coin minting, probaly close to impossible to find on Faerunian coins.
One option, available to anyone whose technology features hinged dies (which allow the top and bottom to always strike the same way) is to just completely fill the obverse and reverse fields with imagery and with writing (it's a great way to propagate your religious beliefs or to show off all of your titles, real or pretended."
I don't have time to look up any current specimens, but from the time of Henry VIII onward English coins frequently had abbreviated titles which included "DG" and "FD" -- Latin abbreviations for "by the grace of God" and "Defender of the Faith," the latter an official title of every subsequent English (but not Scottish) monarch down to Queen Lizzy II herself, who is, by law, Supreme Head of the Anglican/Espicopalian Church. Add in other titles or their abbreviations and the edge can be filled up quite easily. (The champions were probably the 18th century Germans, the Saxons, especially, who used small letters to cram an incredible array of abbreviated titles on their coins.) The purpose, besides propaganda, is that one can instantly recognize a shaved coin by the absence of some or all of the letters or parts of the design.
From the little shaver's point of view, the best coins are those from cities which don't use hinged dies -- where they just manually place one die atop another, with the red-hot coin planchet between, while some extremely stron person smashes the top die into the coin planchet using a very, very heavy hammer. Coins struck that way are usually off-center or oddly-shaped, and a shaver can get away with scraping off quite a bit of metal before the coin looks suspicious.
Ed's answered many questions about coins over the past few years and his archived answers are often quite interesting, and worth a look-see.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Edited by - Jamallo Kreen on 18 Apr 2008 23:04:26 |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2008 : 15:31:44
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| I've produced a stub on the FR Wiki summarizing and referencing the canon information on the Golden Lion. I have also placed an external link there to this discussion: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Golden_lion_%28coin%29 |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 06:17:43
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*sigh* I suppose that if other people are going to actual work, I should do some myself, so:
"Fiorino d'oro and the Decameron" -- explaining a bawdy tale from The Decameron. It also illustrates the nearly identical popolino, a silver coin of Milan.
Society for Creative Anachronism ARCHIVE: Ian Cnulle's Florin -- something for your most trustworthy players to use as props (which you'll never, ever see again....)
Wikipedia article on the gold florin, good for comparing the florin to similar coinage (see the bottom of the Wikipedia page). It is interesting to note how fantasy reverses history: the gold florin was introduced as an alternate to the silver mark (eight ounces of silver according to the wiki, but usually just an accounting term); whereas in D&D, trade bars replace gold coins.
Wikipedia article on the ducat, good for comparing the ducat to similar coinage (see the bottom of the page).Wikipedia article on the Venetian Sequin (zecchino in Italian), considered the "gold standard" of ducats. You can finally understand why Casanova and de Sade's Juliette wanted "sequins" so urgently.
Wikipedia article on the dinar, minted to compete with the Byzantine solidus which had graven images on it), almost invariably Jesus and/or the reigning Emperor of the Romans. The gold ashrafi was minted in Egypt and throughout the Ottoman Empire, to compete with the zecchino, which also had a graven image (the apostle Mark).
(By the way, Afetbinttuzani, I just noticed your sig. I told Steven E. Schend only yesterday that the ghost of Borges would haunt him. Hunh, Borges. He wuzzed robbed of the Nobel Prize!)
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Edited by - Jamallo Kreen on 20 Apr 2008 06:27:14 |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 06:52:14
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Thanks for the helpful links, Jamallo.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
(By the way, Afetbinttuzani, I just noticed your sig. I told Steven E. Schend only yesterday that the ghost of Borges would haunt him. Hunh, Borges. He wuzzed robbed of the Nobel Prize!)
When asked his opinion about being repeatedly denied the Nobel Prize, Borges is quoted as saying: "Not granting me the Nobel Prize has become a scandinavian tradition; since i was born -August 24, 1899- they have not been granting it to me."
Cheers,
Afet |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2008 : 07:16:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
Thanks for the helpful links, Jamallo.
Not a problem. |
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 18:36:53
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While I can accept that the values of gold and silver are different in a world where the mechanisms of mining them and their distribution in the ground may be very different, I still chose to modify this in my campaign.
I have standard 'gold pieces' being tiny little gold pennies and being 250 to the pound. Why?
Because if we want gold to be considered valuable at all in the world, it has to be a little more valuable than so this. The cost of entering Candlekeep for one day cannot be more than a man's weight in gold without making gold a ridiculous currency.
A piece of chain, you know, just regular iron chain, is worth a third of the value of gold by weight.
This is even worse for silver, if we were to go with 50 silver pieces weighting a pound and being worth 5 gp. In real history, silver was worth using as a form of currency because it was portable and acknowledged as valuable. A pound of it would be worth maybe 50 horses. If we go by official weights for coins in D&D, it's probably cheaper to make silver chains than iron ones, as the cost of the silver itself is only 20% of the cost of an iron chain by weight and silver is easier to work than iron.
As for copper, why would anyone use them as coins? Both meat and soap are more expensive for their weight. That's right. Carrying around beef jerky would be more sensible than carrying a pound of copper around if it is worth a total of 5 sp.*
Even if I readjust a lot of prices, I'd still be left with copper, silver and gold being heavy and ungainly metals that aren't valuable enough to be useful currency. So I did the best I could and at least made the values of them slightly higher.
*The cost of meat may be a seperate Murphy, as that means that any domestic animal is worth more slaughtered than alive. A sheep, which may conservatively be said to yield ca 50 lbs. of meat (much more for modern breeds, of course), costs 2 gp. 50 lbs. of meat cost 30 gp. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 22:52:37
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quote:
AD&D [1E] Player's Handbook
Weight is usually stated in gold pieces, 10 gold pieces equalling 1# (one pound).
...
It is assumed that the size and weight of each coin is relatively equal to each other coin, regardless of type or value.
AD&D 2E Dungeon Master's Handbook
Coins (regardless of metal) normally weigh in at 50 to the pound.
AD&D 2E Player's Handbook
Merchant's Scale (2gp, 1lb)
This is a small balance and pans along with a suitable assortment of weights. Its main use is to weigh coins - a common method of settling a transaction. Merchants are well aware that coins can be undersized, shaved, or plated. The only sound protection is to check the coins against a set of established weights. It is also needed when using foreign coins to make a purchase or exchange. Of course, merchants are no more noble than anyone else and may use sets of false weights - one set heavier than normal for selling an item (causing the customer to pay more) and another set lighter than usual for buying items (letting the merchant pay less). In well-regulated areas, officials verify the accuracy of weights and measures, but this in itself is no protection. Players may wish to have a scale and weights for their own protection.
AD&D 2E PHBR2: The Complete Thief's Handbook
Forgery and Coin Clipping
A strong thieves' guild may regulate the activities of forgers and "clippers", to keep the proportion of forgeries and clippings within reasonable limits. If there are too many forgeries floating around, the value of coin will sharply deteriorate, to no one's benefit (including the thieves). Clipping is simply the art of shaving fine slivers from the edges of coins and using the salvaged metal for subsequent coin-forging or for other purposes. A shaved-off margin of some 5% from the original is usually fairly undetectable, but coins may be clipped several times during their lifetime! In advanced societies in the campaign world, the dies used to make coins may have milled or marked edges to prevent clipping.
[This 5% figure seems as arbitrary as the 2.5% suggested above, but both could be workable.]
Forgery and Counterfeiting
... Interestingly, forgery was not a serious crime in the middle ages; barter took precedence above coinage or credit notes, and it's hard to counterfeit a bushel of wheat or forge livestock.
As the Renaissance came, however, and banking developed, so did the forger's art - and the punishments became serious. As late as the first half of the 19th century in England, men and women were hanged for the crime of forging one-pound notes ...
More details about currencies can be found within the "Money and Equipment" passages nobody ever reads in the 2E PHB and DMG.
It seems reasonable for most "clipping" to be done on those coins which have the most circulation; ie: silver pieces would likely be "clipped" more often than gold pieces. It's not unreasonable to assume that merchants who regularly handle quantities of coin would possess merchant's scales - and that they would have easy access to the money-changers and banking houses who could appraise real, false, and foreign coinage. Note that the standard method of calculating density (to confirm whether, for example, a coin or crown is made of pure gold or simply gold-plated silver) is to measure weight (on scales) and volume (through water immersion), then apply a simple formula which was well known to merchants throughout history. Greater precision can always be achieved by measuring larger batches of coins.
Fool's gold and similar magics in D&D are specifically designed to cheat people with false riches. Alchemists are able to transmute base lead into precious gold. Priests of Waukeen are/were able to instantly and accurately detect false coin through simple handling. My players (being lordly vassals of a coldly remote keep) actually mint their own coins of electrum alloy - it costs them 40 gold and 60 silver coins (46gp value) to manufacture 100 electrum coins (50gp value), and thus far I've allowed them to get away with this small cheat, since it's not a lot different from what every other established mint already does.
Detailed descriptions about coinage in the Realms abound, they were first published in 2E Forgotten Realms Adventures. Other campaign settings use similar models of coinage which differ in details, such as steel pieces minted by nations on Krynn.
Coins weighing 1/10 of a pound (~45g) would each weigh roughly the same as a chocolate bar, while 1/50 of pound (~9g) would make them somewhat comparable to the dollar and half-dollar coins minted in the United States and Canada. Consider that if coin weights are all equal then those made from more dense metals would have to be smaller; gold coins might be the size of quarters while copper pieces might be thicker and larger. If you want to give your players an idea of how surprisingly heavy coins can be then just give them a bag containing $20 worth of pennies. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Mar 2012 23:49:11 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 22:57:05
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But gold and silver jewelry is a lot less impressive once the players discover that these materials cost less in the world than copper did historically.
Heavy ornaments are less a matter of conspicious show of wealth and more of bad taste, when every middling merchant can afford gold enough to cover all his fingers, as well as every one of his ten chins.
The weight and value of coinage is one area where I've never been able to stick with D&D canon. It just doesn't work.
I'm fine with more common gold and silver, as I said. It's the hyperinflationary state of affairs that I mind, when the 'normal' coinage of the realm is worth so little that you'd have to carry it around in wheelbarrows to pay for a room at an inn.*
*Canonically, can range up to 10 gp per night. Which would be 20 lbs. of coppers or approximately 10 bags of it. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 12 Mar 2012 23:00:19 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 23:47:39
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I agree that the simplified standardization of coinage in D&D "just doesn't work" in a real-world historical context, especially given the abundance of discontinued and foreign currencies most adventurers procure. But it works well enough for fantasy RPGs. DMs are always free introduce greater realism (complexity) if they desire.
Some of those prices do indeed seem skewed. But consider that successful adventurers are something like famous celebrities, and we wouldn't be at all surprised to learn a famous celebrity spends several thousand dollars for an extravagant meal or hotel room.
[Edit]
Let's not forget that unusual coins might possess great value to collectors. A lich's coffers might contain "gold pieces" minted by some particular floating enclave in ancient Netheril, a dragon's hoard might contain neatly stacked columns of "gold pieces" imported from Greyhawk, a sunken ship might turn out to be a shot-down spelljammer carrying "gold pieces" minted by the Elven Armada. Even the comparatively unexciting coins minted between certain years in this-or-that (gone) kingdom or nation are appealing to collectors and can command much higher prices than their basic commodity worth. A few famous NPCs, such as Rivalen and perhaps Mirt, are known to collect rare coins. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Mar 2012 00:15:56 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 00:30:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Some of those prices do indeed seem skewed. But consider that successful adventurers are something like famous celebrities, and we wouldn't be much surprised to learn a famous celebrity spends upwards of $1000 for an extravagant hotel room or meal.
Sure, sure. Though these are often listed as being for inns that are noted as being on the pricy side, but far from being exclusive to famous celebrities.
No, my objection is not specifically to what things cost, because that I can adjust on the fly when I find an official source that sounds 'off' to my intuitive feel. What I was specifically objecting to was the great inconvenience to... basically everyone who ever bought something caused by the common coinage being almost worthless.
We know that the Forgotten Realms has stupendous levels of international and internal trade, pretty much everywhere. It's what drives the setting. But why would such a hindrance to commerce be allowed to persist? Surely some mercantile power would have realised a long time ago that such a lot of business was going on that it didn't make sense not to have a standarised currency that was more valuable than 50 gp per pound.
Consider that 50 gp is less than it costs to buy a common riding horse. I'll grant you that there were times in history when riding horses were out of the price range of many people. On the other hand, for rather more of history, it was a fairly basic part of the outfit of any character who travelled a lot. And buying spare horses wasn't unknown or even very hard.
In any economy where people occasionally have to buy things, it helps if they can carry easily portable wealth. On Earth, silver was easily portable, being worth, as noted above, about 50 horses per pound. On a world where silver was common enough so that a pound of it was worth 1/25th of a horse*, people wouldn't use it as the main currency of an advanced economy.
I'm not arguing that real-world medieval economics have any place in a fantasy world, necessarily. I am saying that the factors that drove people to adopt copper or silver coinage aren't really present in a world where these metals are so much more common than on Earth.
It would be like using slag metal for currency on Earth, with each chunk of it worth less than a meal at McDonald's. Doesn't really matter who issues it, pretty soon people are going to be using some form of barter, as it would be more convenient.
If there is some pressing reason for silver and gold in D&D campaign to be worth less than iron was on Earth for much of history, ok, that's fine. But then the world-builders have to use something else for currency.
I took the lazy route of simply making coins tiny, which at least added 400% to the crazy low values and patched the problem up a bit. Gold and silver are still cheap, but now they are more like shiny glass baubles than they are like iron.
I also use the Church of Waukeen as the issuer and guarantor of bonds, deposited by a merchant in one city and cashable by him or another there or even in another city with a temple of Waukeen, with the payment of a slight fee. Defaulting on these bonds, signed in blood, causes a divine curse that causes a merchant to have infernal luck in all business ventures until he manages to gain Waukeen's forgiveness.**
*The actual situation in D&D.
**He'd start by making good his debt, covering any damages resulting from it and then devoting himself to Waukeen's service. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 01:06:32
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| The general economies of the Realms and general economies of our world operate on different paradigms. The Wikipedia page about Currency is a fair introduction. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 01:13:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The general economies of the Realms and general economies of our world operate on different paradigms. The Wikipedia page about Currency is a fair introduction.
What? Why?
Currency is still meant to be portable and widely accepted as valuable. If only one of these two factors are present, something is not a good form of currency and would probably limit the economic development of the society until a replacement appeared.
It's important to realise that 'it has magic, so no form of logic or sense need apply' is not actually world-building, it's a lame excuse.
I can agree that the Forgotten Realms is at a different economic paradigm from medieval Europe, certainly. But then, so is the modern world. As it happens, the modern world economies and FR economies have a lot more in common than medieval economies and FR. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 03:37:19
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| Had you considered what I wrote, read the "Money and Equipment" passages I mentioned, and read the wiki page I linked you would know why, Icelander. To paraphrase myself from above, "D&D coinage just doesn't work in our world, but it works fine within D&D worlds". When in Rome, spend the Roman silver. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Mar 2012 03:38:34 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 09:17:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Had you considered what I wrote, read the "Money and Equipment" passages I mentioned, and read the wiki page I linked you would know why, Icelander. To paraphrase myself from above, "D&D coinage just doesn't work in our world, but it works fine within D&D worlds". When in Rome, spend the Roman silver.
How does it work fine in D&D worlds?
It's too heavy.
It only works if the DM and players are furiously waving their hands around, trying to ignore the implications of their encumbrance sheets. Such as the fact that it's impossible to travel a long distance while carrying money for your inn stays, food, drink, entertainment, etc. Too heavy. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 10:29:17
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In the Realms there are other ways of paying for goods and services than just by silver and gold coins. Some cities have their own currency that is honoured by all in that city at a face value (the toal and harbour moon in Waterdeep, steelpense in Sembia, Gondian trade bells etc).
Merchants use trade bars to pay for purchases between themselves with the recognised value of the trade bar assured within the region the merchants are operating. You also have trade scrips that merchants pass between themselves as well as 'blood notes'.
Bloodstones that are honoured through the Realms at 50gp each as they always come at roughly the same size, shape and quality and of course there is the 'Waukeens agreement' between people where goods are 'paid' for via trust and barter and promises of favours later.
There are plenty of other examples of 'different currency types' in the Realms. As ever, Ed has already come to the conclusion that carting around barrow loads of coins is not practical and came up with other solutions to that problem
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 12:31:52
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All true, certainly, crazed.
On the other hand, trade bars with value according to weight of metal aren't any better than coins, of course.
The exotic coins that are worth fairly high amounts of gp despite lacking the metal content for it, however, are indeed such realistic adaptations to crazy-high levels of trade combined with silver and gold being so common so to be not very valuable. Essentially, it's fiat currency backed by state dignitas.
Bloodstones are pretty nice, yes, but you'll note that their value per pound still comes to less than real-world silver for all of history. Thus, they aren't yet as convenient as actual silver is for currency in our world.
Waukeen's agreements are how must business in my campaign ends up being conducted.
The player characters collectively own a merchant house with a fleet of ca 20 ships and operate their own mercenary 'company'.*
So carrying around hundreds of thousands of 'gp' comes around a lot, as well as the relative values of all sorts of trade goods and their weight and transport difficulty.
I think I made the adjustment to gold and silver value and thus coin weight, when nobody at the table was comfortable with the fact that caltrops and copper coins were the same value for weight, the silver coins supposedly being paid for a lot of trade goods were less valuable per weight than finished wooden goods or munition breastplates. And that gold was cheaper by weight than a lot of exotic, but not madly so, stuff.
You know, when the purpose of a currency is to enable you to carry your valuables more conveniently... you really need it to be more convenient than just carrying trade goods. 
My fix was meant to impact the established feel and existing terminology as little as possible. Gold pieces were still gold pieces, prices (other than those that jarred too badly) were still the same. I just upped the value of copper, silver and gold by a factor of five, merely to bring them to 1% of highest historic values rather than 0.2%.
*On their own, they field 400 pikemen, 300 crossbowmen and 300 caliver-men. They've engaged another 1,100+ mercenaries of heavy infantry from Impiltur, bowmen from the Wizard Reach (and a small group from the Dales) and spearmen and heavy infantry from Escalant. |
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how much does a Cormyrian gold piece weigh?
