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Originally posted by Arik

I hate to proclaim the usual "not in my realms" chant, but I find the idea of deities succumbing to peer pressure rather distasteful. No wonder they're so easily replaced by any mortal with backbone.

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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

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Basically, we're all in agreement that the Realms are not sexually biased or sexist, at least where it matters.

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Originally posted by Azuth
And I think we'd be best to limit our discussions on our agreement (or not) that the Realms are not sexists, as a whole, and take private thoughts on real-life issues to private messages. No?

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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Perhaps. But I believe the issue is certainly relavant. I mean, whean idea is sexist or not, it's really the same in either FR or RW. Both are equally valid. The core of the issue is perception, as opposed to whether it's in RW or the Realms. Perception is universal, I think.

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Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Ed himself said that men in the Realms weren't afraid to cry, show emotion (alovg with other things in response to a query about "gay" acting men). I don't believe in this different types of bonding and stuff. It really depends on the individual. So, if Eilistraee wanted males to get a good scope of what it's like to be female, then why not do females turning into males to get a good scope of that gender?

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Originally posted by tradwitch1313

I still don't agree with the changedance really, inless she wants to include both genders. I think she needs to open it up so that male and females caneasily fget their Lolthite culture and embrace a gender equal Eilistraeen one. Can you name any male priests of Eilistraee?

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Originally posted by tradwitch1313

Could you post a link to that please, Sage?

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Ed returns, as promised, with more replies about males and their roles within the faithful of Eilistraee. Heeeeere's Ed:
In reply to RevJest's Jan06 query: "Ed, I would be interested in anything you might wish to say concerning the social order amongst the faithful of Eilistraee. Do they marry? Specifically, what role do males play in Eilistreean communities / households?" let me say this:

I define "faithful" as individuals who most strongly identify with, and believe in, Eilistraee. Lay worshippers, in other words, rather than just clergy (and clergy-in-training or wannabe clergy). There is no Eilistreean prohibition on marriage (or sex) among either lay worshippers or clergy, and never has been. There are many female drow clerics who prefer to remain single, either because a lesbian or other facet of their personalities makes them most comfortable being partner-less (as opposed to having a steady partner of either gender), or because they see married life as a distraction (or time-stealer) from their whole-hearted devotion to the Goddess. Eilistraee has never deemed either married or single worshippers as "preferred," and has never regarded (as far as mortals know) either sort of worshipper as disfavoured or second in rank behind the other sort of worshipper.
Except among clergy dwelling together in a temple (or forest "temple" community; I'm not speaking here of holy buildings or even a fixed worship site), I don't think there are any such things as "Eilistreean communities." (Remember, individuals in the Realms worship an array of gods, not a single deity.) Eilistreean-DOMINATED communities and Eilistreean households, yes. In all of those, females tend to govern (formally make decisions and be consulted in decision-making as the individuals with most social "weight" and influence), involving males primarily as "spot experts" (e.g. "You saw the attack, Phaerold, so tell us - -" and "You've dealt with that human more than the rest of us, Phaerold; please give us your opinion as to - - ") Males tend to be daily-bread-winning workers, guards and warriors, and have tasks related to their generally superior physical strength. They do not tend to be supervisors and high-ranking decision-makers. (Please note the word "tend." I'm speaking in gross generalizations here, not of "a rule that holds true in all cases.") Many males - - even clerics of Eilistraee - - become spies, scouts, patrolling guards, or leaders of lawkeeping or defensive military forces for Eilistreean-dominated communities or Eilistreean-dedicated holy communities. (To answer Kentinal's Jan06 query: "Some wonder how Eilistraee reacts to Wizards as followers as there has been little mention of Eilistraee following mages and the one of note is female, where do males fit in?" I can add that male wizards (of any race) accepted as worshippers of Eilistraee also serve in such capacities (and as "resident experts in arcane magic").
Kentinal also asked: "It has been said the Eilistraee societies there is gender equality, and it appears reasonable that they do not take slaves. Some argue that such communities are Cleric dominated, they rule perhaps?"
Yes, Eilistraee forbids the taking of slaves. Prisoners of war can be made to work in return for their food and shelter, but they are not "property" and cannot be ordered around by anyone: only by supervisors assigned by the decision-makers among the Dark Dancer's worshippers. (Such cases are rare, and generally consist of Lolth-worshipping drow or beings of other races who have "learned too much" and so are being detained for a few months, to prevent the specialized knowledge they've gained from being brought to enemies of the Eilistraeens.
As I noted above, one can only speak of "Eilistraee societies" if they are clerical communities. Scribes must try to set aside real-world monotheistic views of settlements or lands or racial groupings that only venerate one god: in the Realms, beings believe in, and worship (or at least try to appease, through worship) many, many gods. Far too much of the discussion here and elsewhere betrays thinking that "this family or group of [fill in race] worships Deity X, whereas these over here worship Deity Y." Please, when dealing with the Realms, move away from that viewpoint, and reflect that any family with children old enough to think for themselves and express those opinions will likely include family members who choose different (or no!) primary deity, and "weight" their personal worship of the mix of deities differently from fellow family members.

Kentinal also posted: "Another question came up in another place that asked if Monks would take Eilistraee as a Patron deity?"
Yes, monks (of any race) can revere Eilistraee as their patron, but very few do. Just as a drow ranger could turn to Mielikki. Neither case is likely to be numerous or popular; we're talking of handfuls of individuals, not a groundswell of hitherto-neglected-by-the-rules thousands of folk.
And to Kentinal's "In past answers it is clear that followers are located thoughout the regions, some even in "Drow free" zones like Waterdeep and Silvermoon (disguised of course, most likely as fair elves) and there are followers of other races as well. Are there any estimates as to how far and how many races do take Eilistraree as a Patron deity?" I reply: yes, those who "look to Eilistraee first" are found all over Faerûn, and can be of almost any race. (However, the great majority of Eilistraeens are surface-dwelling female drow, who usually make their homes in wooded wilderlands.)
Kentinal also asked: "If the High Hunt is always the End of the month? (I have played it as when an evil dangerous creature came near enough for the Goddess to call out alarm). How long does a Run last?"
The High Hunt is celebrated as a ritual at least once a season (once each summer, and once each winter). One may also be mustered whenever senior clergy of Eilistraee deem it needful, which means whenever the Dark Maiden sends them dream-vision warnings or urgings to do so. What triggers her to do so isn't known, other than yes, causes of such urgings often seem to include the alert, armed approach of large and powerful foes of Eilistraeens (or marauding monsters) to Eilistraeen rituals, places of worship, and Eilistraeens engaged in the work of the Goddess. A Run usually lasts a month to a month and a half, but sometimes for a season or an entire year (longer Runs, unless the participating beings are detained or severely wounded, are rare).
Back in Dec05, bearsden asked: "I would like to know the role of male Eilistraeen worshipers in Eilistraeen rituals. Do the males participate? Are the males excluded from any? Any insight into these questions would help me out immensely. Thanks in advance for your time and help."
Yes, males participate in almost all rituals, as lay worshippers (as Zandilar quite correctly pointed out). This includes the High Hunt, the Run, and the Circle of Song. Yes, there are rituals that males are excluded from, AS MALES (such as almost all of the longer, more passionate dances). However, increasingly males openly plead with Eilistraeen priestesses to be magically shapechanged so as to take part in such rituals, and the priestesses (if they have the means to do so), oblige them (sometimes the change is brief and temporary, fading out as the ritual ends, and sometimes it lasts for days or much longer, while the shapechanged being undertakes a service for the clergy).
However, The Sage was also correct when he posted "Males do not have a specific place in Eilistraee's clergy." That is, males aren't given roles in rituals or in the church hierarchy because they are males. They are blocked from serving in some rituals and church positions because of their gender, but that's a different thing. Most males step into roles in rituals, and rankings among Eilistraeen clergy, as if they were novice or inexperienced females. They may not advance up and out of those roles and rankings because they are males, but even this isn't a "rule." Some males have advanced on their own merits or because Eilistraee has favoured them to others in dream-visions or because they have chosen to remain (or beg to remain) in female form, and this choice has been admired by female clergy as a mark of dedication.

It is true that many long-standing female clerics of Eilistraee are very suspicious of males (and usually see males who take and keep female shape as power-hungry individuals who will "stop at nothing" to rise in the ranks). This means they watch (and instruct) these males VERY closely, and may even devise tasks for them that are both tests and designed to "break male spirit" and cause the changed males to cleave to increasingly female points of view (for example, they might order a changed male to serve under, or take a day job working under, a chauvinistic and authoritatian male).
However, these gender matters can be overstated and overemphasized. On the whole, all clergy of the Dark Maiden welcome an increase in worshippers of the Goddess, and the fellowship (and working with) more and more Servants of the Dark Dancer.
Specific in-ritual roles of "unchanged" males include dancing, singing, having spells cast ON THEM as part of rituals, taking part in collective spellcastings led by female clergy, intoning prayers in unison and responsively with other devout of Eilistraee, and in the tending of fires, braziers, drawn barriers, vestments and tools handed to or taken from, and used by, female worshippers, and so on. Nothing stops anyone, of any race or gender, praying to Eilistraee, including dancing and singing prayers - - and NO clergy of the Dark Maiden would frown on a male exhibiting such behaviour except when they thought it was being done to deliberately disrupt a larger ritual. Many males who worship the Dark Dancer find a moonlit wooded place, pray to Eilistraee to notice and smile upon them, and then disrobe and dance as they sing a deeper prayer (of thanks, and for guidance). Some human hunters who aren't drow or elves, and otherwise have nothing to do with such folk do this, and may dance around a silver bastard sword, and even (when the moon is full) sacrifice live-captured animals they've hunted down with a silver bastard sword. Others gash themselves with the sword while dancing around it, either in lieu of an offering or as well as an offering, as a mark of devotion. Such dances are sometimes undertaken by several males as part of a larger ritual led by female clergy, who heal the males as they wound themselves (and go on dancing and singing).
In short, things are changing among those who worship the Lady of the Dance. Recently, she has taken to manifesting (as a lure to non-believers, or a signal to her faithful) as a handful of dancing moonbeams or moon-motes, that play about a favoured person or an item she wants handled or attention paid to - - or that move about in a way that guides those who see this manifestation.
So saith Ed.
Who I know would like to say more, but future plans (and NDAs) prevent. I hope this has helped to answer some long-standing questions; I KNOW, dedicated scribes being dedicated scribes, that it will spark new ones.
love to all, THO

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I suppose this wierd Eilistraeean gender-bender rite might originate from some guy who likes the image of a dude being turned into a juicy drow babe, in the first place (And the fact that most female drow seem to dress like sl*ts is another issue...).

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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

I'll second that, Erik- the only really sexist society I can see in the Realms is Lolthian drow culture. Eilistraee is not really sexist, as I see it, though still certainly female-oriented.

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Partly for this reason (i.e. gender equality), sexual violence is also less common in the more enlightened Realms. For instance, in RW stories we all too often think of rape as a standard consequence of captivity for a female prisoner--it's a standard trope created by the sexism inherent in society.

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