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Cherrn
Learned Scribe
Denmark
323 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jan 2004 : 07:09:53
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Cyric, having the "GUTS" to do something is one matter. Actually able to do it, is another. Bane would wipe the floor with Cyric but Cyric is just avoiding him now.
Lol. Happy now?
Judging by stats in the Faiths and Pantheons book Cyric would win due to his supreme initiative. And it's not about having guts to do anything. Open warfare doesn't have anything to do with what Cyric is about. That would only further the aims of Tempus. Cyric is more likely to strike from the shadows at the exactly correct time and set his plan in to motion that way. |
A wise man from Calimport once told me: "If a merchant puts sand in the flask of oil he's trying to sell you, then he isn't trying to sell you sand..." |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5692 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2004 : 09:49:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Well, I'm sure Alaundo has places to go, musty old tomes to look over, prisoners guest authors to torture interview, and so on. Quite busy, our head scribe......
::snort, grumble, mutter:: ZZZzzzzZZZZZZ Alustriel ZzzzzZZZZ ::grunt, cough:: Eh!? ...erm......ahem! Yay indeed, quite right! Now get back with your studies  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2004 : 20:08:29
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Here are my contributions:
- The Ascension of Kelemvor (technically part of the Time of Troubles plot)
- The Return of Bane (when all the Zhents rejoiced)
These events reshaped much of the divine landscape; mainly by taking power from Cyric. It has caused new clergies and new conflicts to form and all sorts of plots to spill onto the Prime. How fun! |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 01:32:14
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It has also set the stage (in a fashion) for a nice episode of potential conflict (and maybe revenge) between the now returned Black Lord, and the god he deposed. A conflict between Bane and Cyric would seem to be inevitable, but I wonder how the other deities would handle such a conflict...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 01:59:31
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| Well, I can see most of the goodly and neutral deities caring very little; both Bane and Cyric have few friends amongst the current divine order, and the only gods likely to get involved are the major evil powers, and most of them, like Talos and Shar, would not really care who wins, so long as things get destroyed and people killed, since they like that kind of thing. It is kind of funny, the conflict between Bane and Cyric kind of mirror the Blood War in some ways, with Lawful Evil BAne going against Chaotic Evil Cyric. Funny little parallel. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 02:37:30
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It's frightening to think that maybe the Baatezu and Tanar'ri would see things in the same way. Afterall, marshalling their own forces to assist both Bane's and Cyric's mortal armies could very well provide an inroads for the fiends to establish a beach-head in, or even attempt to conquer large portions of the Realms to provide another eternal battleground for their war.
The fiends could at first operate under the guise of assisting the forces of LE and CE, but really their only interest is in battling each other and bringing another Material Plabne under their sway...It has happened before.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 03:46:56
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| Unfortunately, that is impossible. Remember, there is one force in the Realms which ensures that will not happen: Lord Ao. Think of him as the Lady of Pain for Toril. He is possessed of limitless power over Toril and can do whatever he wants to preserve the Balance, and I imagine he would percieve an invasion of fiends an upset of the Balance and then would directly intervene to kick them out of Toril. It may have happened on other worlds, but none of them seem to have Overgods like Ao, a being of ultimate power in his world who works to preserve the Balance at all costs. The baatezu and tanar'ri would not stand a chance. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 04:35:29
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| Edain, Ao wouldn't use his powers to drive away an invasion of fiends. He protects the balance, but that's only with the gods. He doesn't mess around with mortals and just leave them be. It's up to the gods to solve a situation like that by having their followers kill or help the fiends. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 04:58:13
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| Umm, fiends are not mortals. And I maintain if they invaded it would shift the Balance in Toril out of wack, enough so he would have to step I and stop the fiends from entering Realmspace. Think about it, the evil gods would probably try and ally with the fiends further tipping the Balance towards evil, and if the fiends are allowed to enter Toril unchecked they will overrun the mortals. Fiends literally spawn from their home planes, and they are in infinite supply, far more infinite than mortals of the Prime. It would be bloody, and likely slow, but if unchecked they would overrun the mortals of Toril. That is why the Blood War never ends, there are infinite numbers of fiendish soldiers to go fight and die. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 06:06:37
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Edain's right. Although, I was only thinking hypothetically (which I guess I should have mentioned previously), so nothing I said could actually really happen.
Ao's first priority is to the balance of the primal forces that are represented by the deities. The possible conduction of a 'massive' Fiend incursion or major engagement of the Blood War occuring on Toril would present too many opportunities for less-than-lawful deities to exploit, thus threatening the overall fabric of deitific structure and power.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2004 : 17:40:04
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| Of course, this only regards a large scale invasion of the Blood War. Small scale spill over would be okay, since it would not upset the Balance. I think even small scale spillover is to be expected at times, since at some point a baatezu and tanar'ri are going to cross paths on Toril and then they'll fight. I think one of the coolest expample of spillover is from Baldur's Gate 2, in the watchers keep maze. Summon some baatezu and tnar'ri to the Prime and putting htem in a maze together, can it get any cooler? Frankly, I think the whole Watcher's Keep was one fo the best dungeons ever made for the computer, but back to the topic. The question I ask is, out of Cyric and Bane, as it is now, do you think one could ever defeat the other? I see them as fighting for a very long time before any one wins. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2004 : 02:58:34
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Well again, that's like asking which form of evil will eventually rise to represent the true form of evil at the conclusion of the Blood War...Lawful Evil, or Chaotic Evil.
Bane and Cyric, being representations of these alignments simply have too many strengths and weaknesses that compliment each other, so that neither truly has the power to overcome the other. In the end, I think the battle between Bane and Cyric will never truly determine which form of evil trimuphs, because each has it's place in the moral/cosmological structure, and both are too equally matched in terms of power and faith.
To me, it's a little too much like thinking about the orderly forces of the Baaetzu facing off against the chaotic legions of the Tanar'ri.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2004 : 04:44:54
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| Edain, look back at the history of Faerun. Lord Ao has never revealed his presence until the Times of Trouble (I think). There have been many major events that he could have intervened on: fall of Nethril, the war between the Phaerrims and the Netherese, etc. The only reason he revealed to the mortals was because he made all those changes in the pantheons and the gods' powers. If there was an actual invasion of fiends onto Faerun, Ao wouldn't do anything because he expects the gods to handle it. I personally think that Ao is not going to actually do a "divine intervention" and show off his power. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2004 : 12:12:05
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| yes but those other things where changes and they where the acts of mortals but this would ruin the balance and if the evil gods did ally with the demons and devil then the god gods would simpley not have the power to stopp them and he would have to interve and he have made him self know after that. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2004 : 17:45:49
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Hold the Scrying bowl there Sage. Ok Baatezu are Lawful Evil and they Fight the Tanar'ri the representation of Chaotic Evil on who is truely going to represent Evil as a whole to the planes right?
I think we're all forgetting perhaps the most obvious answer. The Neutral Evil force that really doesn't give a damn about representing evil. Of course I speak of Yugoloths. They play all sides for their own (individual) benefit. I would think that when the dust settles between the Baatezu and Tanar'ri (as if THAT will ever happen), the Yugoloths, true to their nature will come out on top... Which reminds me, Yugoloths are a race unto themselves... Why do a large number (ok it seems like only they) serve as Lloth's personal minions.... ?
On to the Demon and Devil invasion debate, I don't think AO would step in. Reason being is that the way I see it, Demons Devil, even Celestials, heck Outsiders in general are mortal creatures as well. Insanity you say? Not true says I. Now, if a wizard were to be slain on another plane while using an astral projection spell, he would be immune or jump awake back in his body. Much the same as a Fiend slain on the material world. Plus the main body of Outsiders were once the souls of mortals, that were, stolen, recruited, bribed, sold (or Souled heh heh heh ). And as The Darksun had shown us in The Prince of Lies, a soul can be destroyed... thus mortal in a sense... perhaps not old age but other dangers can slay said soul. So no it would still be mortals attacking mortals (true, outsiders are vastly more powerful and have an unfair advantage). So no, Ao would not intervine. He caused the time of Troubles (as a lesson to the deities) so he intervined, not so with mortals. |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
Edited by - The Cardinal on 01 Feb 2004 17:54:21 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2004 : 18:52:09
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Exactly! I agree with Cardinal Deimos about Lord Ao.
Cyric, many gods have allied with demons in the history of Faerun. Lord Ao didn't do anything about it coz he expects the good gods (Lanthander, Mystra, Chauntea, etc) to stop it and return the Balance to its place. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2004 : 23:35:13
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| but we where talking about and all out invasion that would spill ower at evry town and city where the land would run red with blood and all of creation would be at stake and all life could end in a great war. why would he not interven and at least stop it from coming to that. |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2004 : 23:48:28
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| Yes, but be they tehcnically mortal, they still exist in limitless supply and with increidble power. If the Blood War were to spill over unchecked into Toril the demons and devils would be able to utterly wipe out the mortals races without too much trouble. Now, you claim the gods would intervene, tell me exactly how would they do that? Destroy them? Send an army of their proxies to fight them? Sounds like Blood War II - Attack of the Planars. I mean, the Deties get Blood War spill over into their home planes and they cannot stop it, do you think they have the power to just blow them off the map? Maybe, but not without harming Toril. Not only that, what is to stop the evil gods from capitalizing and either allying with the fiends or destroying their fellow deities while they are occupied. The only way to stop the Blood War if it spilled over, unchecked into the Prime would be the bar the acess of the fiends to Toril, which can only be done by Lord Ao. Other than that, no matter how many are destroyed they will just keep coming. That is why the Blood War neven ends. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 00:29:01
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| Edain, that's what Torm's army is for. Lord Ao didn't give him an army for nothing. He's supposed to lead it if an event like you said would happen. Also, the gods would also rally their followers to fight plus I bet the kingdoms and cities in Faerun would band together to fight against a common enemy. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 17:17:01
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| thats true, but Tempus would be the one leading the charge |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 00:02:56
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| I tire of repeating myself, were the Blood War to spill over into Toril in any large scale way, it would be impossible to destroy them, simply based on the fact there is an infinite number of fiends in the Lower Planes; there's a reason the Blood War wages eternally, one side can never wipe the other out. Sure, Torm, Tempus, Faerun could marshall a near infinite force too, so what does that get us? An extension of the Blood War on Toril, waging endlessly until the end of days, unless someone closes the acess of the fiends to the Prime. And that is a best case scenario; worst case scenario Farun is totally overrun and becomes a eternal battleground for the Blood War. And I am not even taking into account what the large scale divine intference would do to the fabric of Toril, which can be nothing good. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 00:44:41
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| Infinite amount? I can't really argue with you about that because I don't know the number of fiends in the Lower Planes myself. However, the fiends don't have to be killed, just banished. For example, if you have read the Crystal Shard, there was a celestial at the start of the book who banished Errtu back into the Abyss with a wave of his hand. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 00:53:19
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| Infinite meaning infinte; the baatezu and tanar'ri basically just spawn forth from their home planes (i.e. the Abyss and Baator). As for banishment, while all well and good you can only banish so many, and the more powerful fiends are more or less impossible to be banished. Look at Myth Drannor for example; while a compartively small conflict, the City of Song had more arcane might in it than any place still standing on Toril and yet they could not jsut banish the fiends; it is not that easy, it never is. Also, can you provide a specific citation of the this portion of the Crystal Shard? I cannot find it in my copy. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 03:39:13
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The angel's name was Al Dimeneira...
"But then Al Dimeneira had arrived, an angelic being of tremendous power. Al Dimeneira banished Errtu back to the Abyss with a single word." - The Crystal Shard, page 9, WOTC edition, 2001.
I would LOVE to read some more about Al Dimeneira...I don't think Salvatore ever touched on him again, did he? |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 03:45:59
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| Probably a bloody Solar; those guys are way powerful. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Lord Nasher Alagondar
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 03:48:16
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| Nope. I think it was just an excuse to further the plot...... |
"Very well, I am admittedly not as traditional in my methodology as you are. So what? The end result is all the same: target ceases to exist. If I happen to use a bit more flair, and a little less stealth to go about it, so be it. If drow were truly meant to skulk within the shadows, we'd not have stark white hair, now would we? Long gone are my days of creeping in the shadows and hiding in wait. Those means are for beings of a cowardly bent. We Bladesingers are risen above such dribble. So saying, it is boldly into the fray I shall go; if I should come to meet my maker, I will at least have done so with a sense of pride and dignity that your ilk will never truly understand. Now go back to hiding in your dark recesses, pathetic mewling...."~Vesz'aun Auvryath |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 04:09:16
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| Edain, see? Yes, Myth Drannor and its people couldn't banish or destroy the fiends but I think a divine intervention could with those solars. After all, if we talked about gods, then I think they should be included too, right? Also, if one Al Dimeneria could banish a balor with a single word, imagine what the gods could do with their powers. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 05:48:01
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| So, a solar can banish a balor. Okay, how about one hundred balors? How about a thousand? The powers of prxies are limited, that must be recognized. Second, lets discuss divine intervention for a moment, how exactly would a deity intervene to stop fiends from ravaging Toril? Send down a its proxies? Well, lets say for a moment that the proxies, while powerful, lack the might to stem the tides of an infinite army of fiends, so what then? The deity sends down some kind of magical method of death, say a killing storm or a mass banishment. Okay, a bunch of fiends are gone, so a bunch more show up. Of course a deity can banish all day long, but there are so many fiends and one deity cannot do them all at once; okay say we have twenty deities banishing, still not enough. Okay, so banishment works, but not too well, so lets send down some avatars, right? Okay, two problems, first avatars can only be in one place at a time so they are only so effective, second too many avatars destabilizes the fabric of the Realms, as would all the divine banishment. So, say the deity gets really annoyed and ecides to come down itself, in all its glory. Well, that might do some damage, but more so to Toril than anything else. So, in the end what have we earned? A bunch of dead fiends, who are simply being marched over by their fellows and a big tear int he fabric of Toril. See, the problem with the Blood War is it is a force of nature int he multiverse, never-ending and immense. It cannot be won through combat, which is the only way the deities of Toril can deal with it. Even a god cannot put a dent in the armies of Baator and the Abyss; a dozen gods, a dozen dozen gods could not stem the flow. In a pantheon all deities have their limits, and the Blood War would reach theirs. Also, realize that after a while the deities of Toril would wane in power if the Blood War raged; worshippers would die en masse and after a while the gods would be took weaken to fight. Like I said, the only option I see would be for Ao to bar acess to Realmsspace from the Lower Planes; I mean, it's not like he hasn't done it before. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 06:28:42
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| Well, it wasn't so much to further the plot -- this happened in the prelude! Basically, Errtu had almost had his claws around Crenshinibon, but Al Dimeneira got to it first. Destroying the Shard was beyond even the abilities of the "powerful angelic being," so he threw it across the planes, to keep it hidden from Errtu. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Lord Nasher Alagondar
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 06:32:40
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Well, it wasn't as though he was required! They could have just said a powerful being. Now, they used a name, got our curiosity peaked, and never mention him again. Typical...... |
"Very well, I am admittedly not as traditional in my methodology as you are. So what? The end result is all the same: target ceases to exist. If I happen to use a bit more flair, and a little less stealth to go about it, so be it. If drow were truly meant to skulk within the shadows, we'd not have stark white hair, now would we? Long gone are my days of creeping in the shadows and hiding in wait. Those means are for beings of a cowardly bent. We Bladesingers are risen above such dribble. So saying, it is boldly into the fray I shall go; if I should come to meet my maker, I will at least have done so with a sense of pride and dignity that your ilk will never truly understand. Now go back to hiding in your dark recesses, pathetic mewling...."~Vesz'aun Auvryath |
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Major Realms events
