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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Nov 2002 : 17:56:51
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Firstly, If you havent read any of the Return of the Archwizards Trilogy then please dont read any more of this topic as it is likely to contain SPOILERS!!
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I havent read book 3 (The Sorceror) of The Return of the Archwizards trilogy but I like what ive read in books 1 and 2. I was just wondering what your views were on what has transpired in this series. Personally (so far! my opinion may change after reading book 3!), im not against the Shades and their activities at all. Imagine how they felt when they returned to Faerun to find not only their great empire gone, but merely desert where it once stood! The shock must have been emmense! You cant blame them for wanting it all back how it was. Im all in favor of bring life back to Anauroch! Id love to see areas of forest etc. rather than hundreds of miles of featureless desert! I was marvelled at how they had altered the weather and placed the sheets (cant remember the proper name) on the High Ice to melt it. The only part which made me think they were going a little too far was when i read of the floods and how the weather had affected the areas to the west of Anauroch.
So anyway, what are your views on these events, and are you with or against the Shades?
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Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2002 : 13:49:42
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That which occurs in Book 3 has the potential to change Faerun even further........particularly in what Galaeron learns of his potential and the effects of fighting his shadow as long as he has....
I simply adore the shades - a group of merciless, virtually emotionless super-villains who can't just simply be bludgeoned to death by magic missles and death magic. The fact that we have never before seen their type of magic and that even the Chosen have to break a sweat (along with several limbs in the process) to combat them seriously affects the way we view them as villains...
Master Denning has done it again....
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My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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ArcticKnight
Learned Scribe
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2002 : 13:55:39
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the only problem with the book (3) is that it doesnt really say what happens to the Enclave after it falls. Malik took the KarsuStone so i would assume thier magic is gone(?) and something gobbled it up in the water.
but we never find out. |
"The man who does not read has little advantage over the man who cannot read."
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KlarthAilerion
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2002 : 18:50:54
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| From my interpretation of the book (3), Shade Enclave has stopped falling and has been stablized above the lake, presumably because Telamont had stabilized the mythallar(sp?). With the Karsestone still in proximity to the city, who knows what could happen. I actually like the idea that Shade has been left in the picture and not easily done away with, leaving more tales yet to be told with a great variety of possibilities. |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2003 : 16:37:48
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I believe there's some real interesting story possibilities following the series. Book three had a relative open end, and the entire series contained enough loose ends for various spin-offs.
The villains are very well portrayed in the series, at first they do appear 'benevolent' yet sinister in a way. Gradually as the alliance finds out more they show more and more of their true nature. Believeable villians IMO.
As to our elf-hero, the fact that there's now some shadow-weave in the Evereska Mythal also offers interesting opportunities, besides from the fact that somehow Shar seems to be able to make inroads in the Elven Pantheon.
The effects of the High Ice melting should affect the North, Cormyr and the Moonsea area for quite a while. One just doesn't quickly recover from drought, flooding, terrible blizzards etc. And the disruption in commerce that this causes will further influence outlying regions not directly affected by the weather.
Oh yes... the opportunities  |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2003 : 20:59:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
, besides from the fact that somehow Shar seems to be able to make inroads in the Elven Pantheon.
SPOILER...
I wonder when Shar managed to subvert Fenmaril Mestarine's worship (Sands of the Soul)? It must have occurred recently, because the followers of the Elven Pantheon don't seem to realize it yet (Fenmaril might be an outcast, but he keeps in touch...). |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2003 : 07:39:12
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| I agree, Faiths and Pantheons also doesn't make any reference to possible subversion. However there is a slight overlap in portfolios, but if that is enough... |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2003 : 02:55:41
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My view on the return of Shade is that it was an unsubtle, "blow everything up" concept intended to sell novels. The overkill of returning an entire city of Netherese spellcasters, with a fully functioning mythallar, and shadow powers to boot, is self-evident.
IMHO, a more appropriate vehicle for introducing the Shades (and I do not doubt that it was done from a "coolness" perspective: wow, I want my next PC to be a shade ... I want to be a shadow weave spellcaster ... etc. etc.) would have been to have a small (emphasis on the small) group of refugees from Shade arrive on Toril from the Plane of Shadow. Shade would have finally been destroyed by the malaugrym (bringing in interesting gaming hooks for DMs wishing to introduce malaugrym into their games) and these guys got away.
Doing it this way would have avoided changing the geographic landscape of a huge portion of faerun, avoided having uber-NPCs like Telamont cruising around, avoided the need to explain away how Mystra allows a mythallar to function in the present-day Realms (given her last contact with Netherese spellcasting - can anyone say Karsus?) and avoided the need to destroy Evereska (which we hadn't even had the privilege of detailing), Tilverton and everything in between.
Basically, I think the return of Shade was overkill, overkill and a splendid opportunity to sell novels.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Malanthius
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2003 : 22:15:24
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Okay, damage accessment and overkill.
First rule of good fiction: Sometimes the bad guy has to win.
Tilverton: Okay, yes it's a smoking shadow spell ensorcelled ruin that seems to be haunted by anonymous shadow things. Contriwise, raise your hand if you could have pointed it out on a faerun map before Escabar unleashed his spell?
Graphic changes of geography: Let's face it, Anaurouch pre-shade A really, really, REALLY, big desert. They put in a fairly large lake and a city that just happens to be able to fly. Yes the high ice melting a little is going to have long lasting effects (hey what if it thaws out some lost colony of the creator races?  ) but it's a big continent.
Mythalar on the loose in present day realms: Evereska, myth drannor, etc. Yes there are major differences between Mythals and Mythalar; thing is, there's an inherent rule here, there both carry overs from an earlier time, and it's not likely there's going to be more made anytime soon. Besides, shade enclaves mythalar runs strictly on shadowmagic, it doesn't tax the weave or mystra herself any. If taking into account the theory that the weave was split when karsus caused the death of mystryl,and the shadow weave can do at least everything the normal one can, it can support the carryover.
Uber NPC's: Does the name Larloch ring any bells? There have already been evil NPC's that approached and/or surpassed even elminster in power before. The difference is you never got to see them going toe to toe with the good npc's like mystra's chosen.
Evereska: It's not destroyed. Badly damaged yes, on the bright side it's now augmented by shadow stuff that makes swiss cheese out of annoying Faerum.
Another upside to the entire trilogy: there isn't a mass of Faerum waiting to break out of someplace anymore. It'll be years before they even hope to do anything together again.
2nd rule of good fiction: There's no such thing as overkill.
Mal.
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"Oh, Do stop whining, It's not the End of the World. It's just the end of Your's." |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2003 : 03:40:04
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quote:
First rule of good fiction: Sometimes the bad guy has to win.
Nope. First rule of good fiction...it has to be good fiction. Krashos' comments were right on the mark. The Return of the Archwizards series was this edition's Time of Troubles series of novels. Both featured very poor writing and stories that were nothing more than hype for a new edition being produced. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2003 : 06:50:42
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I would of enjoyed those books as much if they were just a series of time lines summarizing events. But I still thought they were good, but I certainly could not of kept reading those if they were not Forgotten Realms. I find myself doing that ALOT with FR books. They will be written on a mediocre level of mediocre and I still read them becasue they are FR. Sometimes I will keep reading them even if they are bad...
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2003 : 10:49:29
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That sounds a little sad Mournblade  . Besides mediocre writing is there anything else about the FR novels that you find particularly annoying, or will put you off reading an FR novel?.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2003 : 23:50:47
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I find the Forgotten Realms novels to be a little well, simple. Once you read people like David Eddings and Terry Goodkind, the detail and plots seem quite simple. Elaine Cunningham is an exception to this. She is REALLY good. R.A. Salvatore wrote good books but now the company is rushing him. THE new Drow books are REALLY a promising direction. What we as FR lovers have to do is separate ourselves for a second and imagine someone NOT a Forgotten Realms regular reading the novel. WOuld it keep them or would it seem juvenile. I also tend to think the older novels were better than the new. BUT I was also 15 at the time I was fanatically reading those, and I may just be more sophisticated now.
For example having the stone giant swallow miniature Khelben Storm and others was STOOPID. Forgotten realms books are full of little creative things like that but they just seem silly. I think Cormyr was exceptional for an FR book, and Elaine Cunningham is exceptional for an FR writer. These new books of the War of the Spider queen I will say once again have given me hope that the FR books will rise in level.
I STILL have Thousand Orcs left to read, but the Drizzt books have become so VANILLA that I am not that excited over them. OH LOOK! Double thrust low! WOW! He tumbled.... AGAIN! Is he in trouble? No worries... Guenhwyvar is near!
I also notice, with the exception of MAYBE R.E. Howard (COnan, Kull, Bran MacMorn) very few writers detail combat blow for blow. Forgotten realms do to the point where you can almost identify the number rolled on a d20. In the FR books lately I find myself skimming over the battles, because if you have read one Forgotten Realms written Battle you have read them all.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2003 : 02:49:37
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I can agree with a lot of what you are saying here Mournblade. I have at time felt the same way. I also agree that once you have been exposed to other fantasy writers, your personal views on some FR novels start to view them in a different light, so to speak.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Horgesh
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2003 : 10:07:47
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I feel that magic is poorly utilized in FR fiction. Rarely will you actually see a spell texturized, rather it will fall more in line with: "Mage A's five magic missiles vaporized harmlessly upon contact with Mage Q's shield spell!". No creativity at all.
Now, I do not claim to be an expert in determining what is and what is not good fiction, but spell battles in FR oft times have me sighing at their utter tactlessness.
Combat is even worse, as Mournblade said: "OH LOOK! Double thrust low! WOW! He tumbled.... AGAIN! Is he in trouble? No worries... Guenhwyvar is near!" LMAO :)
Back on topic: Shar is my favorite god, so I am, naturally, a fan of the shadow weave. But it, like the Shade, is just kind of sitting there at the moment with nothing to do. Here's hoping that upcoming authors have the sack (and corporate leave) to give us another Tilverton..hmm..Waterdeep seems like a nice target |
Battle fever. I am half a man and drunk with slaughter, let them kill me if they can! -George R. R. Martin: A Clash of Kings |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2003 : 00:30:19
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Despite is Vanilla Realmsstyle story, I found the return of shade to be quite a good trilogy as far as ideas go. Now I rate FR books on the outcome and how it got there. Does it make good sense? YES? Then it was good. Was it well written? Yes? EVEN BETTER, GREAT! No? Well that figures, but the idea was still good.
ALSO on realms lore...
You can't blame the rest of the realms to want the mto CEASE everything. Bring life back to Anauroch? Well desserts are full of life! I don't even think the Druids of Sylvanus would want Anauroch back to wetlands. Look what systems like El Nino does to OUR climate. East coast US is event affected by it. Just imagine if Anauroch came back to being a forest. This would change wind patterns which would change currents of the sea, and it definitely would change the climate all over Faerun at least.
imagine if the Sahara became a rainforest! Well it would be nice for preventing Global warming, but just think of how the entire HISTORY of the middle east would change.
I think it is interesting and I like to look at the FR map and speculate just what MIGHT happen. During one of our epochs, the area around the equator had no land whatsover, (it escapes me at the moment which one) This caused the oceans at the time (Way before Pangea) to be HOT at the equator and extremely COLD at the north and south, much colder than they are now. The reason for this was there was no current to carry the equatorial warm air north or southwards. If the ocean currents ran amock on toril the climate would drastically change. This is a bit of a focus in my campaign, ensuring that Anauroch INDEED stays a dessert.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 05 Aug 2003 00:37:32 |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2003 : 11:09:53
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Since this is more something of personal views on the matter, I'll chime in a little too. I liked the Return of the Archwizards better then the ToT trilogy.
The latter read like a journal of a table top game, I could almost hear the bottles of coke being opened and the snacks being consumed while reading... oaky, maybe a little harsh judgement, but as far as scoring on the charts of literature, the ToT series are nearer to the bottom then the top.
The Archwizards series... on a measure of being considered literature... no. However, compared to the ToT series ther was some more character development, in some characters smoe mores shades between good and evil, not necessarily the stereotypical raging tyrant and goody-two-shoes hero.
For a DM's point of view, the Archwizards series is more usefull. As I mentioned above, there are lots of open ends and side spins that can provide DMs with enough inspiration for hours of adventuring without having the players rubbing shoulders with Khelben, the Sisters et al.
Now the return of Shade as an effect on the Realms. Interesting, but somehow the authors keep coming up with outsiders trying to invade. For those who have read the Unaproachable East accessory, there is yet another variant extra-planar race threatening the well being of Toril... <sigh>
The only thing that speaks in the defense of Shade's return IMO, is the tie-in to established Realms history. It is not some magicians rabit-out-of-the-hat type of thing. Netheril has had its influence on the Realms in its haydays, as well as after its fall, albeit indirectly because of its actions leading to its downfall. It is not far fetched that the Shade returns. And it will only take a copuple of Relams-years for Toril to adjust to this new threat and find a 'balance' again. In the mean time the appearance creates some havoc, and plenty of adventuring opportunities.
Another side note from Unapproachable East. THere is yet another piece of Toril's history come back for haunting. Apparently some of the ancient Imaskari have found a way to survive undetected to the rest of the world. They are changed, true, but still they're Imaskari.
This is another example of where the FR authors have used established Realms history to create new challenges to the world. This has my preference over the hordes of extra-planar threats that are also being thrown at the world. |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2003 : 21:54:23
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| i feel pitey for the people of shade there leaders are killed and they are attacked, the most stupid heros ever live in the end i have never hatet any caracter more then this. Onley malik and the stone giant where okey the rest they sucked. Vala kiling the prince in that way the coward i realley hope they all die. |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2003 : 05:47:20
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In the past I have been rather vocal about my views of the Return of the Archwizards, but I feel they are worth mentioning again. Overall, the Return of the Archwizards was, in my opinion, a poor series. Firstly, Troy Denning has in recent history demonstrated a penchant for destorying things, rather senselessly at that. Aside from the near utter destruction of Cormyr during the Cormyr Saga, Denning has progressed to a level of unmitigated and unintelligable violence against any force in opposition to his "Big Bad Evil Guy(s)", and often carries the collateral damage to those who just happen to be in the way.
Now, while in the Cormyr Saga Denning demonstrates logic in plot and development of characters, the Return of the Archwizards lack the depth necessary of such a Realms=shattering series. The characters were paper thin and little of what they did was believable.
However, I do not want to come off as being opposed to the concept of the evil guys coming out on top, I appreciate that it has to happen, and I do enjoy it when it occurs, if it makes sense. The actions of the Shades, a race that so deliberately hid from the rest of Faerun for hundreds, if not thousands, of years, make no sense. Why would they barrel into the realms, both guns blazing. Their actions seemed far to belligerent for a species that has been characterized more as shadowy and secretive.
Also, the ending of the series, The Sorcerer, was definable only one way: "DEUS EX MACHINA". It was so forced, it was laughable. After making everything in the Realms seem utterly impotent against the Shades and the Phaerimm, lo and behold a dozen elves and humans defeat all the Phaerimm and manage to temporarily halt the Shade. I guess the Chosen got new power rings between books two and three or something,because all of a sudden they became effective.
I could go on, but I feel I have suffciantly made my point. Additionally, let this not be seen as a blanket damnation of Troy Denning, in my opinion his work in the Cormyr Saga was very good, however of late his written has leaned to far towards "blow everything up and leave someone else to clean up the mess". |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2003 : 06:22:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
I could go on, but I feel I have suffciantly made my point. Additionally, let this not be seen as a blanket damnation of Troy Denning, in my opinion his work in the Cormyr Saga was very good, however of late his written has leaned to far towards "blow everything up and leave someone else to clean up the mess".
Well, I certainly agree with your comments on the Shade series. Additionally, anyone else notice that, to my knowledge, Denning has not written anything for FR since this series, nor is he apparently writing any of the novels that have been mentioned as future releases? |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2003 : 08:30:57
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| yes and he did get poor malik killed or he will be killed by the cursed harpers and they did not even kill the Phaerimm |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2004 : 21:34:47
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The end was a bit stupid to, The city just flying in the desert and life goes on. And in Fr time how long is it since this happen ?
And all the books sucked to. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 01:03:11
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| lol, a very "positive" response on your part, Cyric. Thank you for the laugh, even I need good humor...... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 04:46:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyric
And all the books sucked to.
It's that kind of attitude that leads to Novel Boards getting closed.  |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2004 : 00:16:58
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| They where bad.... who among us could say they where fun(the where a bit fun but not very mouch tough) to read ? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2004 : 05:26:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyric
They where bad.... who among us could say they where fun(the where a bit fun but not very mouch tough) to read ?
No argument here. I found the series very disappointing. |
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Teflon
Seeker
60 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2004 : 06:07:45
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| I just got finished reading it, and what I dont understand is how was it even possible that the princes were hurt? The blue dragon Malgyris was using dragon breathe on them and in mere minutes they shook it off???? |
In any battle, the mightiest weapon is one that strikes unseen.
A Warrior or Wizard may be invincible in open battle, with their foes before them, but even they must sleep sometime, and cannot parry the knife that comes from behind.
-The life of a assassin. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Narad Bladesinger
Learned Scribe
Finland
170 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2004 : 11:57:18
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I think that the return of Shade is a great thing. Well, maeby not to the ones who are killed because of them but for FR.
Now that the shadow weave is out in the open it should create some intresting effects. I was getting kinda bored with regular mages and shadow magic is something new and exciting. I know its been there but now everyone knows about it. Just wonder what the all mighty Thayvians think about it?
And how about mystra's servants? They've gotta be a little bit confused by all that. Anger, war and all that stuff will probably pop up.
So sit back and see what the future brings to us... I know I will |
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What do you think to the return of Shade?
