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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  00:28:52  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ehhh. I think interracial relationships are nasty perid. I'm quite famous wity my friends fr hating te half races, especialy tje half elves. And in real life too, but either way, what happens to the human's or halfling's sense of cultural identity after said pairing?
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  00:42:42  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cultural identity has never struck me as being important on a personal level(though I can see how it can be important to others). In matters of heritage, I'm a bit of a mutt, myself. Welsh, Irish, English, Dutch, German, Jewish, Cherokee, Comanche, plus a few more my family isn't sure of. Yea, these are all find cultures, but I don't let any of them define me. I am what I am as an individual; who or what my ancestors were doesn't matter.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
879 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  00:42:49  Show Profile  Visit Christopher_Rowe's Homepage Send Christopher_Rowe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Uhhhhm...what?

Edit: Chosen and I simul-posted. This was directed at tradwitch's post, which I find mysterious and hopefully not profoundly offensive...

My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering.

Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 16 Feb 2011 00:46:12
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31696 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  01:07:44  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, we're tending a little toward real-life aspects somewhat. Let's steer clear of such hazardous territory, eh?

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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  01:44:26  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yea, there is a whole can of worms best left unopened right there.

Though strickly within realms context he raises a good point, though hardly a new one. It's well established that half-breed races face problems based on those and other issues.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Gouf
Learned Scribe

USA
75 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  02:27:32  Show Profile  Visit Gouf's Homepage Send Gouf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

Though strickly within realms context he raises a good point, though hardly a new one. It's well established that half-breed races face problems based on those and other issues.



But that varies greatly on the parent races. Half Elves and Half Dwarves are generally well received within their communities. There are exceptions like the Eldreth Veluuthra. But overall they are accepted.

Half Orc's not so much. But not because they are half breeds, but because they are from in part the mostly hated orcs.

"Why is the torch burning blue?"
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Mystic Lemur
Seeker

58 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  07:45:10  Show Profile Send Mystic Lemur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The comparison between halflings and those with dwarfism is false. Little people have, for the most part, the same size body parts (Head, Hands, Feet) as regular people, but with shorter limbs. That makes them more comparable to Dwarves. Halflings are a scaled down human, though not to the same extent as, say, a pixie. The point being, little people are still 'compatible' with average height people, which is why those unions are acceptable. Dwarves are 'compatible' with regular sized humans, which is why those unions are acceptable. Halflings are not compatible, nor are Ogres. Neither is acceptable, IMO, for the same reasons.

This discussion reminds me of the line from the new Robin Hood when Tuck asks "So, why do they call you "Little" John?" He responds, "What are you getting at? I'm proportional!" :D

"What mattered our lives now, when our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring." -A review of the FRCG ;)
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  17:04:03  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ML, I don't think anyone was trying to directly compare the two- but the SIZE comparison of a 2.5 tall human and a halfling is certainly valid. The dynamics are still the same. It's still a matter of a very small person with one of average size. Why is that false? And I'm not entirely sure that the line from Robin Hood applies. The halfling is still proportionate too- just on a smaller scale. Otherwise we'd end up with halflings who were, um, tripping on over-sized extremities. On second thought, maybe that's the appeal!! *wink, snicker*

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  17:07:05  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

ML, I don't think anyone was trying to directly compare the two- but the SIZE comparison of a 2.5 tall human and a halfling is certainly valid. The dynamics are still the same. It's still a matter of a very small person with one of average size. Why is that false?
Indeed. All I was saying was, if the height is the main sticking point, that applies to baseline/little/exceptionally tall people too.

My wife happens to be a foot shorter than me, but I don't think of that as weird. Practically EVERYONE is substantially shorter than me.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  17:15:40  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Agreed. I'm substantially shorter than my hubby, as mentioned earlier, but it doesn't bother me. bit of a strech when I hug him, but, whatever. Also, I'd like to mention that while I'm only 5', my mother is even shorter, at only 4'9". In fact, my entire family is/was under 5.5 feet. I have a theory that there was some fey blood in the family tree at one point- probably leprecaun, sinse we're Irish- but I can't prove it.....

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  19:53:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You are from 'the Olde People'.

You've read Mists of Avalon, I assume?

It is a scientific factoid that there was a small, hairy off-shoot of humanity that existed right up to about 10K years ago, which is a mere drop in the bucket on an evolutionary scale (and also would coincide with early humans first developing civilization). IF that off-shoot was genetically compatible (like a Chihuahua having a 'good time' with a German shepherd), then it is plausible that some of that evolutionary 'dead-end' still exists.

My friends from GB say they still do - they call them 'Welsh'.

There was also a more primitive super-sized variant as well, Homo-Giganticus. I personally believe both of these off-shoots are responsible for many of our legends.

ANYHOW, I am 6' tall and have dated two women 5' and one that was 4'11", and LOVED IT (I don't want to be gross about this, but there are certain things that aren't as easy to accomplish with a larger mate). I married a women 5'9", and am currently dating a woman 5'9", so despite the fun I had with my smaller female companions I still tend to find people more my size for long-term relationships.

Just so no-one gets upset - size had nothing to do with why those smaller women didn't work out, and I often still think of all three of them fondly.

On the other hand, I know how two of those women ended-up, and how two of my wife's small friends (5' and under) ended-up... with guys who were abusive.

I REALLY hope that isn't 'the norm' for such things... that's a scary line of thought right there.

Its human nature to dominate those who we think are 'weaker' then us, and only an inkling of that is ever shown in regards to FR or fantasy setting in general (the Netherease enslavement of the Gnomes in an excellent exception, and one I am fond of for it's realism). Halflings avoid 'big people' for good reason, and the lore even says so, yet we see very little of that 'dark side' in stories.

So Erik, if you want to address anything, address THAT - human nature is the scariest monster of all.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  20:02:19  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gouf

quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

Though strickly within realms context he raises a good point, though hardly a new one. It's well established that half-breed races face problems based on those and other issues.



But that varies greatly on the parent races. Half Elves and Half Dwarves are generally well received within their communities. There are exceptions like the Eldreth Veluuthra. But overall they are accepted.

Half Orc's not so much. But not because they are half breeds, but because they are from in part the mostly hated orcs.



Most things I've read on half-elves either suggests or says outright that they face varying degrees of prejudice; not as overt or hostile as against half-orcs, but still. Of course, I don't have my sourcebooks on hand right now to cite, so I could be off.

And I'll grant you that I've rarely if ever been in an rp session where half-elves were met with prejudice, and if they were it usually felt either overblown or forced, or both. I think part of it comes from our modern society being more open minded and accepting, with half-orcs getting the flack because they're less pretty to look at(irony) and up until 4e had that penalty to int that let people call them dumb.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6683 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  20:09:33  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Clearly there's a wide range of responses to the human-and-halfling question. Even though many people (including myself) aren't bothered by the notion, we're still aware that there are certain squicky and offensive associations. Many people, perhaps even the social norm, will conservatively reject such a pairing.

Do the other races have similar preconceptions, sophistications, superstitions, and baggage about what constitutes unacceptable multi-race romance? Do elves have a similar squick about elf-and-human pairings because humans are "too young"? Does this sort of notion imply (in the minds of most elves) that an elf who takes a human partner is some kind of simpleton, predator, or deviant?

[/Ayrik]
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  20:33:33  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
MT- no, I've not read it, but I'm reasonably familiar with the book. You might not be too far oof about the shorter off-shoot, though no one in my family is especially hairy, or ever has been, to my knowledge. And although you ar certainly accurate in the idea of larger people wnating to "dominate" those who are smaller (read- weaker) than themselves(my over-bearing bruteish ogre/neanderthal of a step-father is a prime example), the corrolary to that is the smaller folks also learn to fight back or fall by the wayside. I for one have what some might call a Napoleon complex, to a certain degree, and I'm sure many shorter folks do. Or, as I like to put it- "Short people rule the world- because you'll never see us coming...."


I would not see other races as thinking that way, at least not for most. Goblinoids are obviously a gray area, since most humanoid races KNOW they are usually evil, and there is the physical attraction to consider. One does not usually date goblins or orcs for their looks, and to even do so for other reasons, one first has to get past the physical appearance. I doubt many orcs or goblins get much love from humans or dwarves. Unless they've had a LOT of alcohol first, LOL! (You know what they say about drinking them pretty....) Elves and dwarves and other humanlike races have the advantage of looking more like a human, so the stigma would be far less either way. It's hard to feel a real predjudice against someone who looks a lot like yourself. Cosmetic differences aside, only the most close-minded individuals would make a big deal out of it, and they're usually in the minority.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  20:40:39  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Honestly I imagine elves as being dangerously close to the uncanny valley. Pointy ears, unearthly eyes, unnatural grace. Granted there's nothing in FR to back me up on this, I just think that if we were walking around with elves they'd be unnerving.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  20:44:39  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or highly sought after. Maybe that's why they tend not to pair with humans- they get tired of all the attention....

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6683 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  20:48:27  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aha, well other races might still have physical appeal. The moblins in Legend of Neil are definitely unromantic and unattractive (by human standards) and yet they apparently have certain anatomical advantages.

Half-elves, and to a lesser extent half-orcs (and other halfies) seem to have been adapted into the mainstream and seen as less liminal creatures than before ... so obviously there's less intolerance about unions between their parent races. Of course even a controversial elf-dwarf crossbreed is unlikely to raise many eyebrows in a land peopled by real freaks like tieflings, genasi, and dragonborn.

[/Ayrik]
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  20:56:50  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not to mention that fact that the only real lore examples I know of with half-elves being looked down at were in Middle-Earth, and Krynn, respectively. Arwen's father disapproved of her staying with Aragorn because she would no longer be immortal. Tanis Half-elven was only frowned on by the (more-so than normal) snooty elves of Krynn, and he was the product of a rape. Arilyn is a possible case, but only with certain elves. Humans didn't care, and the only elves who did were mostly her mother's family- and only because she ran off with a human after she was already estranged from her family. Apparently, the only elves who would give a damn are all in the anti-human hate group. (Or just REALLY closed-minded, but these seem to be less common in Faerun.)

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  20:59:00  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In regards to orcs and goblinoids, have you ever seen the show Spartacus: Blood and Sand? There's a character there, rich roman woman, very attractive, who's got a rather good looking husband. She takes a fancy to the gladiators, and I praphrase;

"My mind turns to baser thoughts. Images of brutish hands being laid upon me in a manner...quite lacking in my husband's touch."

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6683 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  21:05:20  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think a lot of the snooty elven hate was sunk with the rest of Evermeet.

Recent D&D (and thus the Realms setting) is far more cosmopolitan now than was old 1E. Half-elves are so blandly unspectacular these days that I wouldn't even be surprised to see them (initially) removed from the list of player races when 5E comes out.

[/Ayrik]
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  21:15:03  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know in Warcraft, half-elves were supposed to face a lot of racial prejudice, to the point that some would actually defect from the Alliance to the Horde because it was easier for them to find acceptance among orcs & trolls than among humans and elves. Never really featured because there were literally only two half elves ever shown in the story and they had extremely minor roles.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6683 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  21:37:53  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's a bit ironic, though.

In 1E:
  • A tiefling walks into a village, her flaming eyes openly defiant of all challengers. The superstitious peasants nervously peer outwards from their shuttered and bolted homes, fervently praying that a hero will come to rid them of this fiend.

  • A dragonborn walks into a village and demands the village leaders assemble before him. The villagers fearfully approach and offer a tribute of money and virgins, hoping their lives and homes will be spared.


  • In 4E:
  • The tiefling warlock and dragonborn paladin form a small party, immediately find the nearest tavern, and announce they're the heros of the story.

  • [/Ayrik]
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    Arcanus
    Senior Scribe

    485 Posts

    Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  21:51:42  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Read Mary Gentles 'Grunts' years ago. It had a halfling and an orc going at it with no probs. Mind you, the female halfling was the head of a house of ill repute!
    Same book has one of my all time favourite orc lines- "Pass me another elf sergeant, this one's split!"
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    Chosen of Asmodeus
    Master of Realmslore

    1221 Posts

    Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  21:53:49  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    More player attitude than anything else; prior edition tieflings could, depending on their characteristics, pass for a full human with a cloak.

    These days, a tiefling is going to cause a stir. They apparently face prejudice even in major cities such as Waterdeep(I remember reading something about a tiefling being placed in public office in Waterdeep being considered a major step in civil rights or something).

    Dragonborn, having just shown up less than a century ago, are going to cause a stir walking into a village away from where they've established themselves; the North, for instance. I wouldn't be surprised if most people in the Silver Marches have never seen a dragonborn, or if many of them didn't even believe they existed.

    "Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
    - John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

    Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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    Ayrik
    Great Reader

    Canada
    6683 Posts

    Posted - 16 Feb 2011 :  22:03:22  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    "But I don't wanna eat dis elf, momma! He's yucky."

    [/Ayrik]
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