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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  01:04:42  Show Profile Send Aryalómë a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've always had the feelings that Sun Elves and Star Elves (maybe even Wild Elves) were prejudiced against the half hreeds beccause both the Sun and Star Elves were wronged and ad VERY bad relations to humans ad some other races. Plus, like what I said before, they probably want to keep heir blodlines ad gees pure to their race (especially Star Elves because they are low in population) so as to keep tre to themselves.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  02:16:22  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or the villagers have no idea what the heck a dragonborn even IS.

"Dragonborn? Is there a dragon with eggs around? Wonderful- there goes all the livestock...."

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6683 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  02:33:17  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Welcoming your new dragon overlord and paying regular tribute ain't so bad anyhow. First, the dragon doesn't eat your village (outside of randomly snacking on slow-moving cows and peasants). Second, the dragon actually profits from protecting your village against intruders and competitors, other dragons, and even royal tax collectors. Third, the dragon is a handy way to dispose of awkward virgins.

Why hire an adventuring group to remove the dragon? They disrupt the status quo and as often as not actually incur greater expenses through collateral damage than the dragon does. If they succeed in killing the dragon they create a power vacuum that will eventually be filled by some other economic predation. If they fail in killing the dragon then they were a waste of money, and worse, the dragon is angered.

Given this logic, I think every village should have a dragon overlord. Rather than grumbling and muttering about tribute while fearfully looking skyward they should instead proudly bedeck the streets with dragon emblems, costumes, mascots, and piñatas. They should observe special festival days to celebrate their draconic servitude.

Stupid peasants.

[/Ayrik]
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althen artren
Senior Scribe

USA
778 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  03:52:46  Show Profile Send althen artren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dragonborn. Imagine the scene in Aliens where the Queen(now picture a dragon) is surrounded by hundreds of
eggs and they start to hatch with sharp claws rocketing out of eggshells.
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe

USA
195 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  04:30:26  Show Profile  Visit Laerrigan's Homepage Send Laerrigan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heh, harkening back to the OP so I can chime in behind the times....

Not icky, IMO---my first thought was practicalities (physically speaking) in certain situations. Of course that can be gotten around with magic, if they have access to it. I personally wouldn't think pedophilia at all---it's not like they look anything like kids in terms of proportions/features, they're just smaller than humans. Though I'd imagine there would be those obnoxious onlookers who'd have to have their snicker on the matter of "small = childlike," however contrived. Or perhaps among halflings, obnoxious snickers about "Like 'em BIG, do you?" [weg weg]

I liked "three-quarterling"....but I'm odd like that.

"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy")
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  15:46:50  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm right now thinking of a halfling rake who leaves a string of "converts" in his wake. That, I think, would be funny.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  17:37:40  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reminds me of a VERY bad joke about a Leprecaun.

And NO, DON'T PM me - its doesn't work unless in-person (but ask me at a Gencon - so I can add the Irish brogue)

Amazing a thread about predjudism has gone on for so long without being closed - people, give yourselves a round of applause.

And BTW, ever since I read the very first D&D sourcebook, I have thought that the Halfling fell-in with the 'Half-Elf' and 'Half-Orc', as in it's a 'Half-Ling'. People have just forgotten about the elusive race of 'Ling'.

Which means that a Halfling is already at least half something else; mostly human, but the original three sub-groups - Tallfellows and Stouts - had some Elf and Dwarf blood (respectively). 'Hairfoots' is just the outcome of a human mating with a very small, furry-legged humanoid (like a faun).

Just my way of looking at it, is all.

Oh... and you know what happens when you mix a Halfling and a Gnome?

KENDER

And god(s) help us all......

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Feb 2011 17:40:45
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  18:27:43  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yup! I'll second that! Kender are just half-gnomelings.....

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6683 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  20:53:44  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kender are vermin. My players tolerate them even less than kobolds.

[/Ayrik]
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe

485 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  21:10:10  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The realms could use some more kender.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  22:38:18  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And BTW, ever since I read the very first D&D sourcebook, I have thought that the Halfling fell-in with the 'Half-Elf' and 'Half-Orc', as in it's a 'Half-Ling'. People have just forgotten about the elusive race of 'Ling'.
If you cross a half-elf and a half-orc, do you come back around to human?

I take as evidence that humans (or other races) can have *some* blood from another race but still be human (i.e. six of the Seven Sisters being about a quarter or less elvish but still considered "human"). So this child would be a quarter elf, a quarter orc, and half human. Would that just be a human (albeit with some interesting heritage)?

But this has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.

quote:
Amazing a thread about predjudism has gone on for so long without being closed - people, give yourselves a round of applause.
I can put an end to that if you like. I give you . . .

Kobold x human. Icky? Discuss!

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  22:55:09  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Kobold x human. Icky? Discuss!


Once you go scaly, you'll come back for it daily.




4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31498 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  23:06:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Kobold x human. Icky? Discuss!


Once you go scaly, you'll come back for it daily.








Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  23:45:01  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus

The realms could use some more kender.
Huh. I thought the definition of kender was: "a race of creatures varying about 3 ft in height, of which no world needs more."

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  23:55:02  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, he didn't say they need more, just that they can use more. Which is true.

You can always use more target practice.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4351 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2011 :  23:55:35  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Kobold x human. Icky? Discuss!


Once you go scaly, you'll come back for it daily.







They only became scaly somewhere between 2nd and 3rd Edition. Dragon-kin, IIRC, appeared in 3.0 or 3.5, before that they were humanoid.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31696 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2011 :  00:11:41  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Yup! I'll second that! Kender are just half-gnomelings.....

No, they're more than that. A thorough reading of DRAGONLANCE lore proves that.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31696 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2011 :  00:13:31  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus

The realms could use some more kender.

Unfortunately, with the individual separation of planar frameworks for each setting, now, the possibilities of new kender finding their way to Realmspace has been heavily reduced.

Of course, that doesn't stop the kender who have already found their way to the Realms, from reproducing.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2011 :  01:28:19  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Kobold x human. Icky? Discuss!


Once you go scaly, you'll come back for it daily.







They only became scaly somewhere between 2nd and 3rd Edition. Dragon-kin, IIRC, appeared in 3.0 or 3.5, before that they were humanoid.


Actually, in 1974 they were goblinoids.

Then in the 1980s a Dragon article grouped them with humanoids.

Once 3E came out (~1999), they were revamped and became scalykind.

Maybe they get killed so often they're evolving before our eyes!




4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2011 :  01:40:37  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I prefer the 2nd ed version. I always loved the pic in the MM!

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2011 :  01:42:37  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

Maybe they get killed so often they're evolving before our eyes!
I originally thought of them as little dog people, like baby gnolls. What edition does that come from?

And is it ickier to imagine dog-kobold x human or scaly-kobold x human?

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2011 :  01:55:08  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by Therise

Maybe they get killed so often they're evolving before our eyes!
I originally thought of them as little dog people, like baby gnolls. What edition does that come from?

And is it ickier to imagine dog-kobold x human or scaly-kobold x human?

Cheers


That might be more in the 1E period. The AD&D monster manual has a pic of them that gives them a snubbed doggy snout, with big pointed ears and little devil horns; and their tail was more rat-like. Also in that pic, they could be covered in scales -or- they could be wearing a kind of scale mail, it's hard to tell. But there were lots of different pics of the kobold down through the years.

OH! I just remembered. It's the Baldur's Gate game (original) where they were given little doggy "yip yip!" voices and snarly growls.

If they're the doggy-style kobold, would a human liaison be "puppy love"? Eeewww! hehe


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!

Edited by - Therise on 18 Feb 2011 01:56:33
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6683 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2011 :  03:42:12  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Scaly kobold-headed yuanti seem like a possibility ...

[/Ayrik]
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2011 :  08:46:35  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This version is ok, fixes the inconsistencies.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2011 :  19:19:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because I have been gaming since the Stone Age, I find I have to reason this out, rather then just retcon it:

I would imagine that the original (D&D version) were more along the lines of little (rabid) dog-people, probably some sort of goblin-Gnoll Hybrid (humanoids are obviously not picky when they rut). If we go all the way back to folklore with this, they were more gnome-like, so this may have originated with a degenerated group of Gnomes (like mongrel men, but starting with gnomes as a base).

At some point, they gained draconic blood. From a metagaming stand-point we know this happened in RotD, but their look has been evolving since 1e. I haven't read their history in that tome, so I'm not sure how well what I say will mesh with that (which is core canon, so we can twist it a bit). I think what happened to some of them (there are still primitive little dog-versions running around as far as I'm concerned) was similar to what happened with Dragonborn. The new, 3e Kobold was the old kobold with a draconic bloodline.

At least, that's how I see it. We should give them their own name, just to differentiate them. I was thinking UrKobold for the new ones, but the problem with that is that the new one takes precedence over the old one in source, so it would be better to name the old one something else (and the 'Ur' prefix doesn't really work for me then).

Apparently there is a sea-going variant (Klabautermann). The Kobold Wiki entry says that creature is a type of Kobold, but when I read it's own entry it seems more related to the Leprecaun-type fey creatures (small men who occasionally help with common chores).

I will definitely have to work this evolving race into my 'complete history of the multiverse'. It makes some sense they would have some fey heritage, given their mutable nature. I'm warming to the idea of a Gnome (Fey blood right there - thanks 4e! ) version of mongrelmen; that sounds about right.

Now I have to wonder if Orcs are the Elven version of Mongrelmen.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

I prefer the 2nd ed version. I always loved the pic in the MM!
THIS one?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Feb 2011 19:42:35
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