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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
268 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 18:44:55
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–371 Year of Bruins: Although he has already survived for centuries, Ioulaum embraces lichdom and establishes a heavily fortified lair in the Northdark.
–489 DR to –371 DR
Seven Sigils War: Rdiuz, a Netherese domain situated along the Gods’ Legion Mountains, builds the mighty floating citadel of Meigg and marches its troops through Cat’s Gate to conquer settlements within the Outlands. Planar beings, more powerful than the archwizards, send their armies through the portal into Netheril, leading to a century of conflict.
Perhaps there's connections between Ioulaum lichdom and the end of Seven Sigils War, what do you think or know about this?
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"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
Edited by - Asharak on 26 Dec 2010 19:36:20
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 11:22:12
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| I always thought they warred with the rilmani (and seven Sigil-like cities), but it's possible, you can pick any other Outlands power, the minions of Ilsensine fit with Ioulaum's obsession with illithids. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 15:14:24
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I dunno... Knowing that two events happened in the same 365-day span isn't enough for me to assume a connection.
My wife got pregnant this year, and I got a Lego Advent Calendar -- I know for a fact those two events aren't related, but they did both happen in 2010. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 11:02:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I know for a fact those two events aren't related,
Who knows...who knows 
But congratulations to you :) |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 08:36:29
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I always assumed it was the Rilmani as well. With an aurumach pretty much going 'oh hell no', proceeding to push the Netherese out from the Outlands in short fashion, and to then use the conflict back on Toril more to tinker with the Netherese than anything else. As for the name of the conflict, I assume the 'Sigils' part doesn't imply anything about the city of Sigil itself or multiple versions (no planar sources covering the time period in question mention anything of the sort, or even the war).
It's one of those little things that would be cool to have pop up again, but it's not likely within the current regime of things. Were I doing anything related, I'd enjoy picking up on the topic, but I'm off in another planar sandbox. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 11:36:08
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I think that Ioulaum could have found other ways to prolong his life, the lichdom wasn't about that, but a part of his plans to acquire illithid knowledge. The undead possess an immunity to many mind-influencing effects and the Far Realms madness.
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
As for the name of the conflict, I assume the 'Sigils' part doesn't imply anything about the city of Sigil itself or multiple versions (no planar sources covering the time period in question mention anything of the sort, or even the war).
I imagined the kamerel building a mirror-copy of Sigil (or an improved one with the Expansionist help), but with only seven parts finished before the rilmani appeared. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 14:24:09
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| With a name like Seven Sigils War, I'd assume that the Seven Sigils were either a group on one side or the other (perhaps 7 Netherese dudes got together and got expansionist), or that the Seven Sigils referred to some bit of magic that was integral to the war -- perhaps seven particular spells that opened the gate, or that were cast by one side or the other to particularly devestating effect. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 14:41:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
With a name like Seven Sigils War, I'd assume that the Seven Sigils were either a group on one side or the other (perhaps 7 Netherese dudes got together and got expansionist), or that the Seven Sigils referred to some bit of magic that was integral to the war -- perhaps seven particular spells that opened the gate, or that were cast by one side or the other to particularly devestating effect.
To put a little extra spin on this... I'd suggest that the seven mages were each a custodian of a single sigil -- and the gate only opened when all seven sigils came together. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 29 Dec 2010 14:42:12 |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
268 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 15:26:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
With a name like Seven Sigils War, I'd assume that the Seven Sigils were either a group on one side or the other (perhaps 7 Netherese dudes got together and got expansionist), or that the Seven Sigils referred to some bit of magic that was integral to the war -- perhaps seven particular spells that opened the gate, or that were cast by one side or the other to particularly devestating effect.
Or perhaps Seven Lost Gods... |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 17:35:45
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Hey folks. Just though I’d add some extra insight for those interested.
The Seven Sigils War was first described in the novel Finder’s Bane on page 198. A hundred year war between the Netheril and the Outer Planes is epic stuff indeed, and I made special effort to ensure the event was included in the Grand History.
Additionally, the Seven Sigils War is used as the historical backdrop for the adventure Monument of the Ancients in Dungeon 170. Within you learn that the Netherese summoned elementals to counter the immortal invasion from the Outlands, unwittingly releasing the primordial “Lost God” Maram of the Great Spear upon Faerûn.
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 17:44:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Asharak
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
With a name like Seven Sigils War, I'd assume that the Seven Sigils were either a group on one side or the other (perhaps 7 Netherese dudes got together and got expansionist), or that the Seven Sigils referred to some bit of magic that was integral to the war -- perhaps seven particular spells that opened the gate, or that were cast by one side or the other to particularly devestating effect.
Or perhaps Seven Lost Gods...
quote:
Additionally, the Seven Sigils War is used as the historical backdrop for the adventure Monument of the Ancients in Dungeon 170. Within you learn that the Netherese summoned elementals to counter the immortal invasion from the Outlands, unwittingly releasing the primordial #65533;Lost God#65533; Maram of the Great Spear upon Faerûn.
So what about the other Six, because I have a hunch they were somehow involved too... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 03:14:53
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Isn't their an 'Arcane Age' novel (or series) that covers that altercation?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 03:38:15
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Well, given what Brian (and Asharak) said -
Seven Lost Gods
Maram of the Great Spear
Haask, Voice of Hargut
Tyranthraxus the Flamed One
Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud
Camnod the Unseen
Dendar the Night Serpent (?)
Kezef the Chaos Hound (?)
Some of these bad boys are primordials, elder evils, servants of Bane, etc; they may have been around during the Nether ages. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Dec 2010 03:39:41 |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
268 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 11:26:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Well, given what Brian (and Asharak) said -
Seven Lost Gods
Maram of the Great Spear
Haask, Voice of Hargut
Tyranthraxus the Flamed One
Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud
Camnod the Unseen
Dendar the Night Serpent (?)
Kezef the Chaos Hound (?)
Some of these bad boys are primordials, elder evils, servants of Bane, etc; they may have been around during the Nether ages.
tsr 9238 Ruins Of Adventure says: "unblessed creatures imbued with the might of a magical pool. Chief among these were the great generals of the evil horde, Tyranthraxus, Edranka, and Torath. With their powers they ruled and united all else, driving forward to destroy us all." ... |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
Edited by - Asharak on 30 Dec 2010 11:28:35 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
268 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 18:04:28
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Well, when Ioulaum embrace lichdom, he's 2944 years old...
The official reason is : "since life-supporting magic and potions ceased functioning as the phaerimm’s life drain and magic drain spells permeated Netheril" (Netheril: Empire of Magic)
I always found this unsatisfactory.
For me, the Seven Sigils Wars offer a more interesting context...
Edit: thanks for the link |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
Edited by - Asharak on 30 Dec 2010 18:07:27 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2011 : 03:29:58
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It still begs the question ---
What planar beings were they fighting for that long and it never went recorded!?  |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 17:21:10
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| if the rilmani were involved, it's likely that the records were destroyed |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 18:26:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
It still begs the question ---
What planar beings were they fighting for that long and it never went recorded!?
It may have been recorded... But the Netherese didn't want anyone knowing they'd been defeated, so they got rid of all the records. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 23:37:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
if the rilmani were involved, it's likely that the records were destroyed
Why? The rilmani seek to protect the middle ground. They don't simply act as though something is "this" versus "that." It's all about the balance. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2011 : 12:33:24
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cause the rilmani don't have strength in numbers, their style is covert war, I imagine that a hundred years conflict would be straining for them otherwise, and it proves the Netherese were competent to the point of uncovering and revealing their weaknesses
they protect the balance in various ways, sometimes the losing side needs just a nudge, sometimes it gets extreme, the difference is that the Netherese invaded their lands, usually it's the rilmani who infiltrate
maybe the illithids are a better choice for that kind of war, I don't know what primordials have to do with the Outlands |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2011 : 14:46:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
cause the rilmani don't have strength in numbers, their style is covert war, I imagine that a hundred years conflict would be straining for them otherwise ...
Eh. I don't see it.
It's largely assumed that the rilmani have taken steps to ensure the Blood War continually rages -- so that neither Baatezu or Tanar'ri gain an upper hand.
And if they can involve themselves in a conflict as far-reaching and ancient as the Blood War, then a singular war fought across a few planes and one Prime Material world, shouldn't been too much of a strain for them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 16 Jan 2011 14:49:01 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 14:16:35
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| Well the rilmani have a talent to strategically place their agents. What are their numbers in your world? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 14:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Well the rilmani have a talent to strategically place their agents. What are their numbers in your world?
I don't really play with definitive numbers when it comes to aspects like this in-game. But, I suppose, I'd have to say... as many as the plot may need.
Though, it's worth noting that I've made some changes to the rilmani in my campaigns anyway. Nothing population-related, but changes all the same.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 19:19:21
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| I've only changed how they look like, more biopunk-ish, their picture in Fiend Folio is awful |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 13:42:21
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| This is an odd-bump, but I am working on some things that deal with with this topic. Research, interestingly enough, brought me home, here, to Candlekeep :) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 13:50:26
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I'd be glad to see a novel or a trilogy detailing The Seven Sigils War. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 16:30:13
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| Heptalogy would be enough to cover the events |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 04:02:14
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| Oh sweet. Make sure to use Rilmani! For some reason everyone forgets how much potential there is in making use of them in the Realms (or any campaign) |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 21:38:53
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| yeah, rilmani from 2e, those in Fiend Folio look ridiculous |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2018 : 21:45:46
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*** casts Raise Scroll ***
Fascinating stuff. Like Matt James all those years ago, research lead me to this thread.
I hadn't known about the Rilmani before. I also asked a question all those years ago that never got answered - I could have sworn there was a novel dealing with Netheril's invasion of the Outlands.
Because I am 'mucking about' in the past ATM (doing a 'historic' map, which is a LOT more complicated than I thought it would be), I am trying to figure what was where and when. The Grand History mentions a 'realm' of Rdiuz, while Brian (in his adventure) says that an archwizard's name. I like to think of Brian's sleight change to be a good fix - maybe a city (groundling or flying, either way) that Rdiuz ruled, and the surrounding lands were just called 'the Realm of Rdiuz' (thus, the city itself may or may not have had his name - I'd prefer to use an existing settlement, since that particular region is already crowded - the ONLY 'crowded' spot in all of Netheril).
Now, speculation in regards to this (old) thread, because I find this stuff so damn interesting: What if there were 'baby Sigils'? What if the Rilmani had a bunch of 'fortress cities' that were 'flavored' like sigil (all sorts of interesting beings), and they were called 'the little Sigils' (like a nickname)? But by the end of the war, those cities had all been destroyed. The Rilmani probably would want people to forget about that, and it would explain why they aren't there in 'modern' Planescape lore. Now the Rilmani act more covertly, having bases of operations in other people's cities, but back then it could have been very different - the Rilmani could have easily changed after a century-long, devastating war.
Next up (and I am trying to weave a cohesive storyline here), is who fought in the war? As said above, it seems to me the Rilmani themselves are small in number, but they probably have lots of 'friends', or rather, people who owe them favors. There were probably many groups that were called upon to help them (which is why I say above how 'cosmopolitan' their cities were - an attack on even one would piss off a LOT of people, because Planer types from everywhere would be present). Rilmani, to me, seem more like 'ancient spiders', in that they weave intricate webs of subterfuge in true machiavellian fashion, trying to maintain 'the balance' over the course of countless millennia. Then the completely overt Netherese arrive and just start cutting loose like bulls in a China Shop - an approach the Rilmani have problems dealing with directly. So in their typical fashion, they draw other groups into the conflict to 'balance things out' - this is where they got their troops, and just about any faction, race, group of beings, or political entity could have had people involved.
And thus, Ilsensine is called upon (he probably owed them a favor), and it provides them with some illithids forces - this makes sense, because psionics are the one area the Netherese seem to be weak in. The most devastating combatant on the Netherese side would have been Ioulaum. He probably didn't want to get involved in someone else's 'silly war', but after it stretched on for so long - and possibly planer beings had begun attacking Netherese settlements - he stepped up and stepped in, and the war started swinging heavily in the Nethrese's favor once again (after all, he is practically a demigod at this point, power-wise). Seeing their utter defeat is immanent, the Rilmani decided their accidental 'escalation' of the war was the wrong approach (they just wanted it to end quickly, but it didn't), and they come up with a new plan involving Ilsensine. The illithid power approaches Ioulaum and offers him some... information.. in exchange for his withdrawal from the conflict. Iouluam accepts, but only if the illithids also withdraw. Ilsensine agrees, but a small number of his 'soldiers' are left trapped on Toril (who become the Anauroch illithids). This bit ties a few things together, including Iouluam's sudden interest in 'things psionic'. With Ioluam's leaving the war, the sides are once-again too evenly matched, and the Netherese finally sue for peace, which the Rilmani gladly accept ('a tie' is the best possibly solution to a Rilmani).
Now, to add one lore log to this fire...
quote:
–461 DR Year of Bold Pioneers
The phaerimms begin casting the spells that eventually lead to the creation of the Great Desert of Anauroch and the abandonment of Low Netheril.
This seems to suddenly 'happen out of nowhere'. The last mention in the GHotR is WAY back in -33,800 DR!!! But do you notice this date falls out within the period of the war? Lets look at this a different way -
•The Sarrukh are HIGHLY MAGICAL and good at building gates to 'other places', and the Phaerimm show up and bother them.
•The Imaskari are a HIGHLY MAGICAL group that are VERY good at gates, and also 'visiting other places' through them, and become involved with other worlds and planes. The Phaerimm show up to pester them.
• The Netherese are a HIGHLY MAGICAL bunch who build gates/portals and love to bother other people on other worlds and planes. The Phaerimm show up and cause a ruckus.
• The Elves, Calimshan, Raumathar, Narfell, Thay, Halruaa, Nimbral, etc, etc are all HIGHLY MAGICAL cultures... but no Phaerimm ever bothered any of them.
Hmmmmmmm.... could it be the Phaerimm themselves are some sort of 'final solution' sent by someone, or maybe simply 'pointed in the right direction'? Oh, I don't know... perhaps some group of people who prefer to act clandestinely to maintain The Balance? Maybe while digging around ancient Sarrukh ruins (after all, they were sitting right on top of them!), they discovered mention of the Phaerimm, and after some sleuthing on their own, maybe they discovered 'the source'? Maybe their attack on the Outlands was more of a 'preempitve strike' on their part? They did seem to be 'allocated' to Netheril during the war.
Just poking a stick at some old lore (and threads) to see what turns up. 
Cheers |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Mar 2018 21:59:08 |
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Seven Sigils War & Ioulaum
