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The DMs Revenge
Acolyte

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2009 :  02:03:24  Show Profile  Visit The DMs Revenge's Homepage Send The DMs Revenge a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Who are/were the Twisted Ones? Does anybody know? I know Tyranthraxus was linked to them, and two listed were Edranka and Torath.

Thanks.

Darkmeer
Senior Scribe

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2009 :  04:38:00  Show Profile  Visit Darkmeer's Homepage Send Darkmeer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Simply put:
Tyranthraxus is thought to be one of the Seven Lost Gods. He's some sort of possessing spirit (this is all from the Villains' Lorebook, BTW). I think he had a big role in the Pool of Radiance adventures, but outside of that I'm unaware of anything.

As for the "Twisted Ones," I have no idea.
I'll assume it's a reference to the undead group the Twisted Rune. They are a group that messes with Calimsham's way of life just for fun (although individuall members may have other ideas). I referenced Lords of Darkness for that tidbit. Perhaps that is the information you are seeking, but if it's not the group in Calimsham, I have no idea (sorry ).

Hope that helps.
/d

"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME."
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BadCatMan
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Australia
401 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2009 :  07:57:55  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ruins Of Adventure has a tidbit about this. Tyranthraxus also appears in Curse Of The Azure Bonds.

From the in-universe source The History of the North: "Ten days ride north of the Varm is a barren and dead country called the Lee-wai, land-in-pain or land-of-caused-pain. Further to the south
this place is know as the Tortured Land. It is said to be an evil place, shunned by the Riders. They speak little of this land but yearly during Ches they make a trip into its heart. Their they go to adorate the spirit of a glowing spring. This they have done for ages and so shall they do for years to come." This the same Tortured Land north of the Ride and the Moonsea, and the Riders are the human barbarians there.

The Grand Historian’s Records of the Arts of War adds: "At this time their ruling the Twisted Ones was a powerful general named Tyranthraxus. He strode before his armies cloaked in flame and led the Riders out of the waste. At his hand the kingdom of Barze was conquered. Turning south he led his army to conquer the Horreb and the Vane. Tyranthraxus was a cruel man and leveled all that he had taken, murdering the princes of these lands. But the flame that surrounded him consumed him, destroying his body. Freed of its
shell, it flew among the men of his army, lighting on each and claiming it. It was then when Baron Schodt imprisoned Tyranthraxus in a vial of water which shone like the light of day. This he sank in the watery depths of Lake Longreach, defeating the armies Tyranthraxus had raised."

It's not clear who the Twisted Ones were. They could be a tribe of the Ride barbarians, or some creatures in the area. Tyranthraxus need not have been the general himself, he is a flaming possessing spirit after all. But was at some point a lesser god. Villain's Lorebook mentions him in ancient legends of the ogres, so T may predate the humans.

I've not heard of Edranka and Torath or another reference to the Twisted Ones. Where did you get this from?

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2009 :  08:17:47  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

I've not heard of Edranka and Torath or another reference to the Twisted Ones. Where did you get this from?
The original reference for both Edranka and Torath comes from the "Adventurer's Journal" in the box for the SSI Pool of Radiance game.

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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2009 :  16:24:37  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
maybe some unique type of outsiders like Tyranthraxus
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe

Australia
401 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2009 :  02:06:50  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, found them. Ruins Of Adventure says: "unblessed creatures imbued with the might of a magical pool. Chief among these were the great generals of the evil horde, Tyranthraxus, Edranka, and
Torath. With their powers they ruled and united all else, driving forward to destroy us all."

I've not heard of Edranka and Torath as gods or whatnot, and the names are very different from 'Tyranthraxus', so I wonder if they were T's sub-commanders of the horde.

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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe

USA
624 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2009 :  02:12:18  Show Profile Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am COMPLETELY unfamiliar with this plotline; at what point in history did this occur?

How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2009 :  04:39:56  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't give you a timeline, KotG, but I can give you all a link to another scroll in which I provided a bit more information relating to the Seven Lost Gods...

Hopefully it's informative, or at least leads you to something that is... I'm still looking for more information on Edranka and Torath, as well as Maram, myself. BRJ cleared things up regarding Borem, Haask, and Hargut in his sidebar in the GHotR (for Borem) and his Web article on Ironfang Keep (for Haask and Hargut); let us know if you need a link to that one.

As far as how it all fits together: I think that the Seven Lost Gods (as I enumerated them in the linked-to scroll) were demipowers who were all defeated by the Dead Three in their quest for divinity; we know that Borem, Haask, and Hargut met that fate, and we have in-universe written testimony (albeit a very small amount thereof) that the other four did as well.

Apparently there is a recent DDi article by Brian and Matt James that goes into this further, I believe focusing on Maram of the Great Spear.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 22 Nov 2009 04:51:19
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Brix
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147 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2009 :  20:34:27  Show Profile Send Brix a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lord T. was a Yugoloth Lord (refered as daemon)


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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe

Australia
401 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2009 :  01:56:39  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think you might be mistaking him with Anthraxus, the yugoloth that rampaged his armies around Chondath in Swords Of The Iron Legion. A connection between the two has been posited, based on the names, but I don't think there was ever any evidence for it.

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Brix
Learned Scribe

147 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2009 :  11:33:03  Show Profile Send Brix a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

I think you might be mistaking him with Anthraxus, the yugoloth that rampaged his armies around Chondath in Swords Of The Iron Legion. A connection between the two has been posited, based on the names, but I don't think there was ever any evidence for it.


Take a look at Curse of the Azure Bonds module, page 3 (left side, last paragraph)
"... discovered the Pool of Radiance and its malefic protector, the daemon Tyranthraxus. The Daemon was defeated but no destroyed..."


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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe

Australia
401 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2009 :  12:44:19  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Huh. That's pretty definite. Okay then.

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Brix
Learned Scribe

147 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2009 :  14:05:05  Show Profile Send Brix a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

Huh. That's pretty definite. Okay then.


There are several other builds, the only one official I know of is Lord T. as a demipower (Cloak and Dagger)
In 4E terms he could be a Primordial.


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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
918 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2009 :  16:05:35  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maram is the centerpiece of our 'Monument of the Ancients' adventure that was released earlier. Our line of thinking followed closely that the 'Seven Lost Gods' are indeed primordial lords who fell in service to Bane after his ascension (which is canon save for the primordial part until recently).

To a mortal, the difference between a god and a primordial could be non-existent.

Edited by - Matt James on 28 Nov 2009 16:08:39
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Shemmy
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USA
492 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2009 :  05:18:55  Show Profile  Visit Shemmy's Homepage Send Shemmy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If Tyranthraxus was listed as a daemon at any point, I think we can write that off as an unintentional mistaken conflation of Tyranthraxus and the actual unique 'loth/daemon Anthraxus. Tyranthraxus wasn't a unique yugoloth. I'm willing to make that call.

Sadly they don't exist anymore in WotC's game, but replacements do exist.

Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
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Posted - 08 Dec 2009 :  11:10:02  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
?
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2010 :  19:38:14  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm confused too!

Tyranthraxus is a big ol' meany...and most likely to feature heavily in my writings concerning The Ride.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2010 :  05:56:05  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
He was definitely a daemon and apparently unique. He might have begun as an Altraloth, converted to a unique form and granted powers through night hag magic. He was unique to the Realms cosmology, like Kexxon, so would not have been counted among the known Atlraloths of Greyhawk's Great Wheel cosmology.

He is said to be a possessor spirit, and may be completely incorporeal, except when he is possessing a body. Alternatively he could have been some kind of loumara that converted to the Yugoloth faction and became a Yugoloth lord, in a similar vein to Malkizid.

Then again, perhaps it was his Altraloth conversion transformed him into a Yugoloth version of a loumara, maybe so he could become the ultimate spy or infiltrator for them.

In 1e there were Guardian Daemons that had unique forms. Perhaps he started out as one of those with an incorporeal form.

Lastly, it occurs to me that he could have been an arcanaloth or an ultraloth that transformed himself through arcane methods that he researched, transcending his given daemonic form.

At some point in history he was revered as a god. Whether he actually ascended to divinity is unknown, but it is possible that he did (although not required to be worshipped as one). But I think it likely that Tyranthraxus did have a divine rank and maybe a portfolio that he surrendered to Bane. It's said that Tyranthraxus bowed down to Bane, and this probably happened sometime around the Year of Boiling Moats when the Dark Three were on their epic quest to fulfill the requirements necessary for their own ascension.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2010 :  00:26:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why not link this to the other thread?

At some point in the distant past, probably right around the time the Vikings converted to Christianity, A powerful and ambitious Daemon-Lord named Anthraxus traveled to Earth and found the waning Norse pantheon, and defeated and absorbed Tyr, thus creating the new deity Tyr-anthraxus. With his new-won powers he then went to Toril and began to recruit worshipers to help elevate him even further.

Some time later, perhaps when Netheril fell, the Tyr-persona buried within him managed to break free and become a separate entity once again. This could have been a side-effect of the magical havoc, or perhaps another demi-power (Tursas?) helped free the trapped deity from the Yugoloth. If Tursas was a waning Netherease power, such a power-grab and absorption seems feasible (several powers seem to have undegone changes with Mystryl's demise, and the Dawn Cataclysm could be tied to this as well).

So what we wind up with is a conjoined power named Tyranthraxus, who started a religion in the Moonsea region, and soon after became seperated again, but his human followers would be unaware of this change. He may have dropped from lesser or even Intermediate status when this happened, but he retained just enough of Tyr's former power to still be of demi-god status. This lessening of power would then have enabled bane and the others to eventually slay him and steal his powers.

Like all gods (which Anthraxus did become), he is never truly dead, and can be brought back if some silly cult starts worshiping him again.

As for the Primordial connection.... why can't Yugoloth lords BE Primordials? What was that even older group called? The ones that may created the other Yugoloths? Baernoloths? What if Anthraxus was one of those, and they in-turn are lower-planes primordials? I would hazard to guess that the term 'primordial' is just a mortal word for the prime-material variants of an ancient, near-divine race of incredibly powerful beings that once lived across all the planes (which would also help to blur the lines between them and things like arch-Fey, which could simply be their Feywild 'cousins'). It also means he could have been a VERY unique Altraloth, having been a Baernaloth first, rather then a common Yugoloth (which would also explain why he is also the Oinoloth, according to Wikipedia).

A little convoluted, but it is possible to still get all the different bits to work together.

Only problem is, now that Yugoloths simply ceased to be, it screws the pooch. Damn retcons...

Oh wait... I forgot.. there is no such thing as 'retcons'.

EDIT: More on-topic - As for the 'Twisted Ones', the only Pools of... novel I read was ..Twilight, and it seems that the pool had the power of twisting and combining various creatures that have tried to use its power in the past. There was a Titan/Dragon amalgam IIRC, and that certainly sounds like something that would be called a 'Twisted One'.

SO... if Tyranthraxus is trying to return to power in the Realms, he may have attempted to tap into the power of an ancient Manawell (My term for ALL FR 'pools'), and corrupted it, and then used it on his minions, creating bizarre and unique monsters for his army.

I discussed some of my theories concerning FR's pools in another thread awhile back, and saying that mortal creatures cannot access their energies without being corrupted sounds just perfect, IMHO.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Aug 2010 00:46:17
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2010 :  03:27:47  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always thought that Baernaloths were something akin to primordials. They may have spontaneously generated as exemplars of evil, or they may have been more neutral primordials that were corrupted by Tharizdun, possibly the first evil beings (after Tharizdun). It seems likely that they corrupted Slaadi, or more likely chaotic-neutral proto-slaadi bretheren of Ygorl and Ssendam--as they existed before their form was fixed by the Spawning Stone. These proto-slaadi or primordials were corrupted by the Baernaloths and became the obyriths, the chaotic evil progenitors of the Tanar'ri (modern demons).

Although, I would hazard that all this happened in Greyhawk's wheel-shaped cosmology, and that the demons and devils of the Realms emigrated from the Great Wheel cosmology brought over by Shar as mercenaries to fight in the War of Light and Darkness.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2010 :  03:33:05  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good stuff guys!

I like it...and it fits nicely.

Suddenly I see Tyranthraxus as a proto-obyrith!

EDIT: only...on the Lawful axis...not exactly an obyrith...but something similar...am I making any sense?

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Edited by - Dalor Darden on 07 Aug 2010 03:34:11
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2010 :  16:02:44  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Obyriths already are ''proto'', no need for the prefix. On the lawful axis there are the ancient baatorians. In 4e they invaded from another universe (similar to the sharns). In earlier editions they were the primal spawn of Abyss, overthrown by the tanar'ri (according to the yugoloths created by them, but they're known liars).

Baernaloths aren't primordials, they are primal pure evil. Primordials are elementals, later corrupted. There are creatures like the draeden Ulgurshek, around whom the Abyss formed, or the enormous Sleeping Ones in the Plane of Ice that could be considered true primordials.

Anthraxus was an ultroloth first, not a baernaloth. And generally as a race they were very anti-deity, not sure he'd want to be god. There's also Inthracis.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Why not link this to the other thread?

...




Lol this is a crazy story, then you could link Tyranthraxus with Anachtyr.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2010 :  18:10:31  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My perception is that Primordials were originally unaligned. Not necessarily evil. Primordials were not elementals that became corrupted, they were always just the paragons of the Elemental Chaos.

Some Primordials became corrupted by evil and became demon lords.

But most Primordials were just creatures of appetite. Made of base materials they had base desires and aspirations. Sure they fought against the gods, but that doesn't make them evil, though many of them were. A lot of them were just driven by lust for the things they wanted, or out of envy, or rage, or intense desire to consume. Some Primordials were charitably motivated like Ubtao (who was true neutral, I believe).

The yugoloth myth is that the Baernaloths purged themselves of law and chaos distilling their evil to the purest form, shedding the law and chaos out of themselves as wriggling larva that crawled off to Baator and the Abyss to later evolve into devils and demons. But the yugoloth are noted liars, so the myth may be totally untrue, or half true.

I disagree that the obyrith were already "proto", or at least, you are right, they were, but that doesn't mean they didn't come from somewhere else further back, or that something was not more "proto" than they. My personal theory is that the obyrith were originally unaligned primordials or some kind of chaos spawn, possibly bretheren of the pre-Spawning Stone slaadi, and that they became corrupted to evil by the machinations of the Baernaloth, or perhaps simply by eating some of the larvae that the Baernaloths had shed.

Some of the aspects of that story and their origins work better in the Greyhawk Great Wheel cosmology, which is based on alignment. Which is why I think they had their origins there and emigrated to the FR cosmology much later during the War of Light and Darkness between Shar and Selûne. But even in the Great Wheel cosmology, the early universe was a much different looking place, and may not have been shaped like a wheel.

I think it plausible to surmise that the chaos of Limbo may have been part of the Elemental Chaos of the early Great Wheel universe, all of the planes emerging out of the infinite potential of the Ethereal, distilling into discreet layers like oil and water, though initially they may have all been jumbled up together.

There is some evidence to suggest that they were. We know that the elemental planes had a different configuration at some point in the distant past, once configured like a tetrahedron (d4 shaped). And there is lore to support that the Great Wheel cosmology evolved out of Chaos. From the chaos eventually emerged law (an organizing principle) which only later split into good and evil when the Axis of Law was sundered. Some say that this is a metaphor for when Asmodeus broke from the paragons of Law, but at least one myth holds that Jazirian and Asmodeus used to be one being, like an amphisbaena of Law that was split in two, with Jazirian hurled to the highest peak of the 7 heavens, and Asmodeus plunging to the lowest depths of Baator in the form of a cosmically large serpent, where he came to rest in that part of the 9 hells known as "The Serpents Coils." It's said that the drops of blood from his wound where he was split from Jazirian formed the first pit fiends.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2010 :  18:37:30  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Could the "Twisted Ones" be the Gnolls of the Frozen Flindyke?

Or something else? What?

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2010 :  18:48:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

My perception is that Primordials were originally unaligned. Not necessarily evil. Primordials were not elementals that became corrupted, they were always just the paragons of the Elemental Chaos.

THIS.

That is what I was trying to get out - sometimes Gray and I sound like we are talking about different things, but its simply a matter of how we envision the mechanics of the universe working.

Anyhow, THAT is how I imagine things went, long before the deities were created. You had a group of insanely powerful beings that dwelt within the primal Chaos, and as the universe formed, possibly by their hand or by the design of even higher beings using them as minions, various Primordial beings absorbed the essence of the planes they dwelt in or worked on. While some of these retained their connections to the Primal Chaos (Elemental lords), others took-on the energies of other planes and mirrored them in their being, like ArchFey and Fiend Lords (Baernaloths & Obyriths), which makes them ALL Primordials, but the beings humans refer to as 'primordials' are actually the ones that have received the least amount of deviance from their original natures. More accurately, they should be referred to as 'true primordials', or 'elemental primordials', or even 'Prime Ordials'... hmmmm... I rather like that.

'Ordials' would be the race of godlike beings that dwelt in the Primal Chaos at the beginning of time, and the ones that mortals are most familiar with are the ones that chose to dwell within the Prime Material - thus 'Prime Ordials'.

Can I Copyright that?

LOL, I just created the proto-race that all the protos evolved from! Much better then the old term I used for this group - 'Conceptuals'.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale

Lol this is a crazy story, then you could link Tyranthraxus with Anachtyr.
The difference being that we have both a 'Tyr' and and 'Anthraxus' in canon, and we also know that Tyranthraxus IS Anthraxus, which means that at some point, he felt the need to add the 'Tyr' onto his name (or loose it - same both ways). The easiest conclusion to jump to is that the name change had something to do with Tyr.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Could the "Twisted Ones" be the Gnolls of the Frozen Flindyke?

Or something else? What?

If they are the same as the creatures encountered in Pool of Twilight, then the 'Twisted Ones' have no definitive shape, but rather are amalgams of other creatures perverted by the pool.

ERGO, the gnolls of Flyndyke could possibly be a variant created by a mix of humans and dire wolves (or pre-4e Worgs) that were exposed to the pool's energies.

There is one precedent for gnolls being created from humans, in The Hordelands material - one of the valleys in the Yehimal Mountains. Thus, while most gnolls are obviously the result of other gnolls breeding, it is posible that gnolls are a created race, or at least, a race that can be duplicated magically.

Have we ever seen a female gnoll? In the Hordelands netbook I was working on, I was going to have it where that group had to breed with human females (to explain-away some of the weirdness in that entry).

Anyhow, I don't see why you couldn't say the Twisted Ones were gnolls (or Flinds - perhaps only the Flinds were 'Twisted Ones', thus going back to my theory that Flinds were created by breeding gnolls with demons). If the pool generates a 'demonic influence' (taint), then it is entirely possible that normal gnolls were brought before the pool and changed into Flinds.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Aug 2010 19:02:06
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2010 :  19:32:59  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm...

What other mentions of Flinds are there in the Forgotten Realms? I remember something...can't remember what or where...

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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2010 :  19:44:41  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, Chaos and the Ethereal, really like the idea, before I had the fey as chaotic spirits originating from the Ethereal.

BTW before, I always liked the concept (from Planescape I think) where Law, Chaos, Evil and Good evolved simultaneusly, not later introduced primordial Chaos, then Law (from Guide to Hell), then Good and Evil.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

My perception is that Primordials were originally unaligned. Not necessarily evil. Primordials were not elementals that became corrupted, they were always just the paragons of the Elemental Chaos.



'Ordials' would be the race of godlike beings that dwelt in the Primal Chaos at the beginning of time, and the ones that mortals are most familiar with are the ones that chose to dwell within the Prime Material - thus 'Prime Ordials'.

Can I Copyright that?




What about the mysterious Ordial plane?

http://www.mimir.net/mapinfinity/ordial.html
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 07 Aug 2010 :  20:31:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, the 'Ordials' were the original group of mortal beings created by GOD or the Old Ones (also gods) to force Order upon the Primal Chaos, and build the universe itself. They were the builders. They in-turn created the deities to help fill that universe. Neither Ordials or deities are truly immortal, just unmeasurably powerful. The Old Ones (Ancient Ones, Elder gods, etc), are the only beings truly immortal, and even then there are exceptions (Ymir). All of these beings would be called 'gods' by Primes, because the power levels are so far beyond normal mortals that they do not even recognize the differences.

I'm a proponent of some of Guide to Hell - I have worked a nice chunk of it into my Cosmology, along with a good helping of Marvel Comics cosmology. In Marvel, Law & Chaos govern the magical aspects of the universe, and good & Evil the technological, thus matter (tech) and energy (magic) each have two 'poles'.

So by building upon that, and sprinkling-in a liberal amount of Moorcock (Elric) cosmology (and Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber), I've got the two diametric opposites of the the two driving forces behind civilizations (magic & tech), and between each is a 'gray area' of neutrality, thus bringing the 'rule of three' in as well. Worlds must have all of these to be stable - if any of these forces over-powers the others balance will be lost and the world will begin to break-apart and slip back into the primal regions (Outer Planes) of the universe they are most closely aligned to. A precedent for that is how the border-towns in Planescape are constantly slipping into the planes they are adjacent to, when they become too much like them.

My cosmology is constantly evolving (if you haven't noticed), to incorporate everything I read, believe in, and any new rules/lore that come to the fore in D&D (or other settings/games as well). There is not a single RW religion that does not somehow fit into my theory, including old mythological ones, along with tons of paranormal and metaphysical stuff (like Holistic Body, Mind, & Soul). I even fall back on Steven Hawkins and Tesla for certain aspects of it (Time and Electromagnetic Fields). Basically, its free-form enough for me to take ANY setting, be it novel or game, and fit it into my over-cosmology, allowing me to use everything within my gaming environment in one way or another.


quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Hmmm...

What other mentions of Flinds are there in the Forgotten Realms? I remember something...can't remember what or where...

It might be a good idea to ask Ed about that one - I only recall that one mention of Flinds, and only a handful of gnoll references.

For the Empire of Urgalash (sp?), I envision something along the lines of a highly evolved and stratified canine society, based on species, and I use Mystara's Lupins as a base. So modern gnolls are really a devolved and primitive remnant from a once proud and advanced culture. Somewhere there is a mention of gnoll-mummies in the Realms - I forget where - but that points to a rather evolved form of death ceremonial rites. There was a list of all the Lupin species of Mystara floating around somewhere on the web, along with the Rakasta (Mystara's catfolk).

There may be some sort of primordial Cat vs Dog thing in there - seems odd that the leaders of the 'dog people' (as gnolls are known in the east) are cat-like. I was thinking about some connection between Set (Jackal) and the Rakshasa, perhaps a law vs chaos thing amongst the evil powers, but I gave up that line of thought for whatever reason. I was getting into "what really started the Blood War", and I simply do not know enough about Planescape to get into that.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Aug 2010 20:39:06
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2010 :  07:33:52  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
What about the mysterious Ordial plane?

I know you were just joking but I have a theory about the Ordial...

The Ordial Plane is a hypothetical transitive plane that links the Outer Planes to the Inner Planes in the same manner that the Ethereal links the Inner Planes to the Prime Material, and the Astral links the Prime to the Outer Planes. The "Rule of Three" suggests that there should be a 3rd transitive plane, the Ordial, that connects the Outer to the Inner Planes without passing through the Prime. There is no actual evidence for the Ordial, except some anecdotal accounts, but it is a favorite theory of planar scholars.

My theory is that the Great Wheel is like an engine that facilitates the flow of souls (aka soulstuff, "souler" energy, or incarnum) in a great circuit from the Positive Energy plane, where pre-incarnate souls are generated and travel to the Prime Material Plane. From there the souls are born, live and die to become petitioners, traveling through astral vortices to the Outer Planes. After a time, sometimes millennia, the petitioners eventually become absorbed into the plane of their respective afterlife (or into their god) which is used to maintain the plane or spent as divine energy to power spells and such.

The spent form of this energy (entropic energy/negative energy) travels through the Ordial to the Negative Energy Plane, the negative pole of the great battery which is the Inner Planes. The Ordial completes the ciruit. Without it, the Great Wheel would not turn.

That's my take, anyway.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2010 :  10:01:10  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gray, do you think the transitive planes are the oldest ones?

I like the idea about the Wheel as a machine of souls, so then the Doomguard would claim that it is not a perpetual motion machine with 100 % efficiency, right?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2010 :  15:23:04  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting Gray, I have to think on that - I like it.

In my old theory I had it where Chaos (The Far realms) was infinitely large, and existed outside of a torus-shaped multiverse, and the Law existed at the center of the Radiant Plane, which is infinitely small (you heard the one about a million angels dancing on the head of a pin?), and that sits atop the Eternal Spire (that thing at the center of the Outlands). Ergo, there is a 'bright center of the universe' that all else revolves around. Basically, The Cage (Sigil) is a model for the universe itself.

In the center of the Radiant Plane lies the Well of Souls, where all spirit-matter (Incarnum) is generated.

However, I am leaning more towards the Wheel being a Incredibly ancient and immense artifact that 'churns out' souls. I have always said the Wheel was an artifact anyway, and that the planar gateways are really nothing more then portals (there is no real 'linkage' - just the Outlands, Sigil, and it's many portals). Now I know why the thing was built in the first place.

So, at the risk of getting Real-world metaphysical for a moment. does that mean that GOD is the energy of the Radiant Plane? That it is his own energies that create the countless trillion trillion souls? Part of my theory is that everything stems from him/her, including Chaos (Cthon/Cthulhu), which it expunged from itself at the beginning.

Or we can go Marvel again, and say that GOD has two faces (like Eternity and Infinity), and say that they are the two poles in the great machine you theorize.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Aug 2010 15:24:25
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