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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2012 :  13:50:26  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I'd be glad to see a novel or a trilogy detailing The Seven Sigils War.

Every beginning has an end.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2012 :  16:30:13  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heptalogy would be enough to cover the events
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
717 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2012 :  04:02:14  Show Profile  Visit Razz's Homepage  Send Razz an AOL message Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh sweet. Make sure to use Rilmani! For some reason everyone forgets how much potential there is in making use of them in the Realms (or any campaign)
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2012 :  21:38:53  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yeah, rilmani from 2e, those in Fiend Folio look ridiculous
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2018 :  21:45:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*** casts Raise Scroll ***

Fascinating stuff. Like Matt James all those years ago, research lead me to this thread.

I hadn't known about the Rilmani before. I also asked a question all those years ago that never got answered - I could have sworn there was a novel dealing with Netheril's invasion of the Outlands.

Because I am 'mucking about' in the past ATM (doing a 'historic' map, which is a LOT more complicated than I thought it would be), I am trying to figure what was where and when. The Grand History mentions a 'realm' of Rdiuz, while Brian (in his adventure) says that an archwizard's name. I like to think of Brian's sleight change to be a good fix - maybe a city (groundling or flying, either way) that Rdiuz ruled, and the surrounding lands were just called 'the Realm of Rdiuz' (thus, the city itself may or may not have had his name - I'd prefer to use an existing settlement, since that particular region is already crowded - the ONLY 'crowded' spot in all of Netheril).

Now, speculation in regards to this (old) thread, because I find this stuff so damn interesting: What if there were 'baby Sigils'? What if the Rilmani had a bunch of 'fortress cities' that were 'flavored' like sigil (all sorts of interesting beings), and they were called 'the little Sigils' (like a nickname)? But by the end of the war, those cities had all been destroyed. The Rilmani probably would want people to forget about that, and it would explain why they aren't there in 'modern' Planescape lore. Now the Rilmani act more covertly, having bases of operations in other people's cities, but back then it could have been very different - the Rilmani could have easily changed after a century-long, devastating war.

Next up (and I am trying to weave a cohesive storyline here), is who fought in the war? As said above, it seems to me the Rilmani themselves are small in number, but they probably have lots of 'friends', or rather, people who owe them favors. There were probably many groups that were called upon to help them (which is why I say above how 'cosmopolitan' their cities were - an attack on even one would piss off a LOT of people, because Planer types from everywhere would be present). Rilmani, to me, seem more like 'ancient spiders', in that they weave intricate webs of subterfuge in true machiavellian fashion, trying to maintain 'the balance' over the course of countless millennia. Then the completely overt Netherese arrive and just start cutting loose like bulls in a China Shop - an approach the Rilmani have problems dealing with directly. So in their typical fashion, they draw other groups into the conflict to 'balance things out' - this is where they got their troops, and just about any faction, race, group of beings, or political entity could have had people involved.

And thus, Ilsensine is called upon (he probably owed them a favor), and it provides them with some illithids forces - this makes sense, because psionics are the one area the Netherese seem to be weak in. The most devastating combatant on the Netherese side would have been Ioulaum. He probably didn't want to get involved in someone else's 'silly war', but after it stretched on for so long - and possibly planer beings had begun attacking Netherese settlements - he stepped up and stepped in, and the war started swinging heavily in the Nethrese's favor once again (after all, he is practically a demigod at this point, power-wise). Seeing their utter defeat is immanent, the Rilmani decided their accidental 'escalation' of the war was the wrong approach (they just wanted it to end quickly, but it didn't), and they come up with a new plan involving Ilsensine. The illithid power approaches Ioulaum and offers him some... information.. in exchange for his withdrawal from the conflict. Iouluam accepts, but only if the illithids also withdraw. Ilsensine agrees, but a small number of his 'soldiers' are left trapped on Toril (who become the Anauroch illithids). This bit ties a few things together, including Iouluam's sudden interest in 'things psionic'. With Ioluam's leaving the war, the sides are once-again too evenly matched, and the Netherese finally sue for peace, which the Rilmani gladly accept ('a tie' is the best possibly solution to a Rilmani).

Now, to add one lore log to this fire...
quote:
–461 DR Year of Bold Pioneers
The phaerimms begin casting the spells that eventually lead to the creation of the Great Desert of Anauroch and the abandonment of Low Netheril.

This seems to suddenly 'happen out of nowhere'. The last mention in the GHotR is WAY back in -33,800 DR!!! But do you notice this date falls out within the period of the war? Lets look at this a different way -

•The Sarrukh are HIGHLY MAGICAL and good at building gates to 'other places', and the Phaerimm show up and bother them.
•The Imaskari are a HIGHLY MAGICAL group that are VERY good at gates, and also 'visiting other places' through them, and become involved with other worlds and planes. The Phaerimm show up to pester them.
• The Netherese are a HIGHLY MAGICAL bunch who build gates/portals and love to bother other people on other worlds and planes. The Phaerimm show up and cause a ruckus.
• The Elves, Calimshan, Raumathar, Narfell, Thay, Halruaa, Nimbral, etc, etc are all HIGHLY MAGICAL cultures... but no Phaerimm ever bothered any of them.

Hmmmmmmm.... could it be the Phaerimm themselves are some sort of 'final solution' sent by someone, or maybe simply 'pointed in the right direction'? Oh, I don't know... perhaps some group of people who prefer to act clandestinely to maintain The Balance? Maybe while digging around ancient Sarrukh ruins (after all, they were sitting right on top of them!), they discovered mention of the Phaerimm, and after some sleuthing on their own, maybe they discovered 'the source'? Maybe their attack on the Outlands was more of a 'preempitve strike' on their part? They did seem to be 'allocated' to Netheril during the war.

Just poking a stick at some old lore (and threads) to see what turns up.

Cheers

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Mar 2018 21:59:08
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4149 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2018 :  22:23:55  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jergal did it.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2018 :  19:33:40  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rereading what I wrote above, it seems more likely, actually, that Phaerimm are attracted to 'Gate Activity' - almost as if they are 'swimming' through the medium which gates pass (we see a little bit of this in the novel Elminster's Daughter). Different settings call it different things; I believe Narnia calls it 'The Wood Between the Worlds', and in the Wheel of Time its called 'The Ways' (IIRC). There was also a version of it in Sword of Truth (it was called 'the veil', and it was more like the border ethereal mixed with shadow). In The Forgotten Realms we call it The Road of Starlight and Shadows (which I think is actually a semi-physical manifestation of The Weave itself; what would be called 'ley-lines' on other worlds).

So what if these weird, germ-like creatures are some sort of 'infection' which spreads through 'open wounds' (the Gates/Portals)? The more gate-happy a civilization seems to be, the more likely they'll attract these things.

And, of course, the Sharn are 'antibodies', but I've been saying that part for awhile now. Thus, just like in mythology, the Crystals Spheres and/or worlds ARE 'The Gods' - those are the physical bodies. Perhaps Ed envisioned his D&D universe as a giant, living organism? If we go back to the Norse myths (and FR does have a 'Great Tree'), the universe is actually the rotting corpse of a proto-Titan (Jotun). So is our entire universe just a rotting dead body in the cosmic scheme of things? Are we in some sort of infinite 'field' somewhere with ginormous alien entities watching how how we decompose?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Mar 2018 19:38:16
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7499 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2018 :  19:45:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Rereading what I wrote above, it seems more likely, actually, that Phaerimm are attracted to 'Gate Activity' - almost as if they are 'swimming' through the medium which gates pass (we see a little bit of this in the novel Elminster's Daughter). Different settings call it different things; I believe Narnia calls it 'The Wood Between the Worlds', and in the Wheel of Time its called 'The Ways' (IIRC). There was also a version of it in Sword of Truth (it was called 'the veil', and it was more like the border ethereal mixed with shadow). In The Forgotten Realms we call it The Road of Starlight and Shadows (which I think is actually a semi-physical manifestation of The Weave itself; what would be called 'ley-lines' on other worlds).

So what if these weird, germ-like creatures are some sort of 'infection' which spreads through 'open wounds' (the Gates/Portals)? The more gate-happy a civilization seems to be, the more likely they'll attract these things.

And, of course, the Sharn are 'antibodies', but I've been saying that part for awhile now. Thus, just like in mythology, the Crystals Spheres and/or worlds ARE 'The Gods' - those are the physical bodies. Perhaps Ed envisioned his D&D universe as a giant, living organism? If we go back to the Norse myths (and FR does have a 'Great Tree'), the universe is actually the rotting corpse of a proto-Titan (Jotun). So is our entire universe just a rotting dead body in the cosmic scheme of things? Are we in some sort of infinite 'field' somewhere with ginormous alien entities watching how how we decompose?



Along those lines to a degree there's similar creatures in the yuirwood realm of the star elves... forget their names. They're kind of attracted to extradimensional spaces it seems.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3028 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2018 :  03:22:40  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Rereading what I wrote above, it seems more likely, actually, that Phaerimm are attracted to 'Gate Activity' - almost as if they are 'swimming' through the medium which gates pass (we see a little bit of this in the novel Elminster's Daughter). Different settings call it different things; I believe Narnia calls it 'The Wood Between the Worlds', and in the Wheel of Time its called 'The Ways' (IIRC). There was also a version of it in Sword of Truth (it was called 'the veil', and it was more like the border ethereal mixed with shadow). In The Forgotten Realms we call it The Road of Starlight and Shadows (which I think is actually a semi-physical manifestation of The Weave itself; what would be called 'ley-lines' on other worlds).

So what if these weird, germ-like creatures are some sort of 'infection' which spreads through 'open wounds' (the Gates/Portals)? The more gate-happy a civilization seems to be, the more likely they'll attract these things.

And, of course, the Sharn are 'antibodies', but I've been saying that part for awhile now. Thus, just like in mythology, the Crystals Spheres and/or worlds ARE 'The Gods' - those are the physical bodies. Perhaps Ed envisioned his D&D universe as a giant, living organism? If we go back to the Norse myths (and FR does have a 'Great Tree'), the universe is actually the rotting corpse of a proto-Titan (Jotun). So is our entire universe just a rotting dead body in the cosmic scheme of things? Are we in some sort of infinite 'field' somewhere with ginormous alien entities watching how how we decompose?



Along those lines to a degree there's similar creatures in the yuirwood realm of the star elves... forget their names. They're kind of attracted to extradimensional spaces it seems.


Nishruu, maybe?

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

657 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2018 :  14:41:27  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Rereading what I wrote above, it seems more likely, actually, that Phaerimm are attracted to 'Gate Activity' - almost as if they are 'swimming' through the medium which gates pass (we see a little bit of this in the novel Elminster's Daughter). Different settings call it different things; I believe Narnia calls it 'The Wood Between the Worlds', and in the Wheel of Time its called 'The Ways' (IIRC). There was also a version of it in Sword of Truth (it was called 'the veil', and it was more like the border ethereal mixed with shadow). In The Forgotten Realms we call it The Road of Starlight and Shadows (which I think is actually a semi-physical manifestation of The Weave itself; what would be called 'ley-lines' on other worlds).

So what if these weird, germ-like creatures are some sort of 'infection' which spreads through 'open wounds' (the Gates/Portals)? The more gate-happy a civilization seems to be, the more likely they'll attract these things.

And, of course, the Sharn are 'antibodies', but I've been saying that part for awhile now. Thus, just like in mythology, the Crystals Spheres and/or worlds ARE 'The Gods' - those are the physical bodies. Perhaps Ed envisioned his D&D universe as a giant, living organism? If we go back to the Norse myths (and FR does have a 'Great Tree'), the universe is actually the rotting corpse of a proto-Titan (Jotun). So is our entire universe just a rotting dead body in the cosmic scheme of things? Are we in some sort of infinite 'field' somewhere with ginormous alien entities watching how how we decompose?



Along those lines to a degree there's similar creatures in the yuirwood realm of the star elves... forget their names. They're kind of attracted to extradimensional spaces it seems.


Nishruu, maybe?



Nilshai. They're detailed in 3E Unapproachable East, appear in one of the Last Mythal trilogy (I think in The Last Threshold but I'm not sure) and are mentioned in other few rare occasions, in 3E. I don't know how the following editions portrayed or used them.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2018 :  23:51:32  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So. like infections, there could be different types. Depending on what caused the 'world wound' will affect what type of critter shows up. Thanks for the info, guys.

So now I am thinking there is like a 'magical subverse' going one all around us, with all sorts of nasties swimming through it. Not The Far Realms - a similar concept but with a whole set of different, magic-oriented creatures (and part of THIS {D&D} universe, not a different only like the far realms or wherever the Obyriths haiiled from).

Perhaps the near-mythical Ordial Plane? Or just another aspect of the ethereal? (if you can somehow manage to 'submerge' into the deep Ethereal without leaving the Crystal Sphere, you wind up in some sort of 5th-dimensional 'basement' where magic and magical creatures dwell - a 'subverse').

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3028 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2018 :  17:55:02  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I knew it started with a N.

Like the "Upside Down" in "Stranger Things".

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2018 :  18:15:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Like the "Upside Down" in "Stranger Things".
YES, exactly!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
472 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2018 :  16:32:08  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

lol...that would definitely be true. Though, if they could get enough variables and data points, they could do a multi-variable regression analysis and at least try to determine correlation (causality is almost never on the table as you know).

Do you think or know if there are enough data points to conduct such an analysis? That would be nothing short of awesome to see something like that!

Best regards,



P.S. How did that Lego Advent Calendar turn out for you? lol


quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I dunno... Knowing that two events happened in the same 365-day span isn't enough for me to assume a connection.

My wife got pregnant this year, and I got a Lego Advent Calendar -- I know for a fact those two events aren't related, but they did both happen in 2010.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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