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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 00:22:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Gollum started off as one of the "River folk", didn't he? Something very much like Hobbits. At least in the movies ... sadly, I cannot recall this passage from the books.
As I remember it, most common lore these days [especially from David Day] suggests Gollum was a ghoul and former Hobbit. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 28 Nov 2010 00:23:13 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 00:24:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Gollum started off as one of the "River folk", didn't he? Something very much like Hobbits. At least in the movies ... sadly, I cannot recall this passage from the books.
As I remember it, most common lore these days [especially from David Day] suggests Gollum was a ghoul and former Hobbit.
Ghoul? I don't recall it ever calling him that. You sure you aren't thinking of the Nazghul? (sp?) He was one of the River Folk, if I recall all those convos I had with the hubby about it. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 01:15:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Gollum started off as one of the "River folk", didn't he? Something very much like Hobbits. At least in the movies ... sadly, I cannot recall this passage from the books.
As I remember it, most common lore these days [especially from David Day] suggests Gollum was a ghoul and former Hobbit.
Ghoul? I don't recall it ever calling him that. You sure you aren't thinking of the Nazghul? (sp?) He was one of the River Folk, if I recall all those convos I had with the hubby about it.
I wasn't referring to references from Tolkien's own writings.
Most David Day sources [like his Bestiary and The Illustrated Tolkien Encyclopedia] have him referencing Gollum as a ghoul. It's not something I personally subscribe to, but Day does state that given his own studies of Tolkien-lore, this was most likely the case. Day distinguishes the Nazghûl by calling them "mighty wraiths" -- obviously taking interpretation from the 'Ring-wraiths' conception. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 02:14:26
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Wikipedia claims "Gollum was a Stoor Hobbit*, of the River-folk", the cited source is Tolkien's Unfinished Tales: "an annotation by Christopher Tolkien to this chapter refers to Déagol and Sméagol being Stoors."
* Stoor Hobbits explained here.
I suppose Middle Earth Hobbits aren't really fey either (if Feywild even applies to Tolkien). I do personally feel halflings are more feyish than gnomes, regardless of how the wizards may dress them up; halflings are kinda Leprechaunish and gnomes (in my mind) are more dwarfy. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 28 Nov 2010 02:53:29 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 03:04:22
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| Halflings MORE fey?! Oh, come on- gnomes were a fey race from WAAAYY back in folklore long before Tolkein's hobbits existed. And with the large noses, short stature, and illusion skills, they seem far more "fey" than a halfling who is just, well- short. There was a passage in a DL source somewhere that once theorized that in Krynn, gnomes were the offspring of a dwarf/kender(halflings of Krynn) cross, but that dwarves would never admit to it, and the kenders had no clue because they don't pay attention to those things. Also, keep in mind that not all fey beings were traditionally slender and "pretty". Some, like the Hobs and phoukas, were just plain homely. As fey folk go, gnomes have a stronger claim to fey descent than halflings do. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 28 Nov 2010 03:07:40 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 03:16:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Wikipedia claims "Gollum was a Stoor Hobbit*, of the River-folk", the cited source is Tolkien's Unfinished Tales: "an annotation by Christopher Tolkien to this chapter refers to Déagol and Sméagol being Stoors."
* Stoor Hobbits explained here.
Sounds about right. Though, I don't have my copy of Unfinished Tales with me at the moment. [Which, on second thought, should've been the source I checked first.]  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 28 Nov 2010 03:16:49 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 03:29:09
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Dragonlance gnomes, dwarves, and kender (along with minotaurs, goblins, and other races) are interrelated through complicated events involving the Graygem and Graystone. It's been a while since I read anything Dragonlance, my details could be wrong.
"Standard" halflings in the Realms (at least prior to 3E) admittedly have little inclination towards magic use. Whereas gnomes are masters of Illusion magics. Both races have dwarfish constitutions and a few peculiar abilities which seem feylike. I've always viewed halflings as malicious/playful lackadaisical lazy lugubrious little rogues and gnomes as more gadgety hard-nosed applied science types. Dwarves may only reluctantly admit that elven craftsmanship "isn't too bad" while openly admiring gnomish engineering advances. Gnomes are a bit of a random mix of both worlds ... I just don't quite accept that it tips them fully into the fey camp. I'd be more inclined to believe they're descended from dwarves who adapted to a fey-rich world instead. Naturally this is all personal opinion and contradicts published canon. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 04:18:28
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Canon aside, one has to admit that gnomes as a race have a long-standing tradition in fey lore, although they were often considered a more "earthy" type of fey. In fact, in a standard Wiccan circle, they are called on as one of the four (fey) guardians of the corners- Gnomes in North/Earth corner, Undines in East/Air, Salamanders in South/Fire, and lastly, Meireads in West/Water. Clearly from this, one can see that gnomes have a very close connection to the elemental fey archtypes. The evolution into the D&D gnomes is not too far from their folklore origins- they are still associated with oaks and ash trees in the form of the "forest gnomes", and with earth and stone as "rock gnomes". Even their illusion powers hearkens back to the days when gnomes used fairy glammour to hide their homes from humans. I am reminded of a book that I've had since childhood, simply titled "The Book of Gnomes" which was both beautifully written and illustrated, and contained all sorts of day-to-day lore on gnomes and how/where they lived. It mentioned their close ties to the earth and to other "small folk" including pixies and trolls, and their close association with the animals around them. It even went into various types of gnomes. (including the "house gnomes" that I think may have lived in or near my old home.)
Edit: Darn gremlins are at it again... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 28 Nov 2010 04:24:53 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 05:16:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Dragonlance gnomes, dwarves, and kender (along with minotaurs, goblins, and other races) are interrelated through complicated events involving the Graygem and Graystone. It's been a while since I read anything Dragonlance, my details could be wrong.
That's essentially correct. The entire concept of the Graygem and the races affected by it has shifted somewhat over the last twenty years... but the core dynamic you're referring to here remains the same. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 06:00:44
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There are "standard Wiccan circles"? Not at all my area of experise, but it seems like you can ask any five Wiccans for thirteen opinions on the matter.
Hmmm. Gnomes in folklore are traditionally fey. As are dwarves, dragons, goblins, and giants if you want to be technical. (Modern depictions in Shrek and travelocity commercials notwithstanding. And what stupid fool came up with garden gnomes? Truly a garishly human invention ... do D&D gnomes plant little clay dragons in their gardens?)
A problem with folklore is that it tends to vary dramatically between regions and generations. What is Fey in Éire is not at all what is Fey in Sarmatia. Even ancient Romans worshipped "fey" pagani* (plural of paganus). Germanic Futhark runes were said to ward against fey (viewed as dangerous horned creatures with dark appetites). Celtic knots and mazes were thought to attract and delight fey (viewed instead as playful and generally beneficient). Is it the little gnomes or little elves who build toys in Santa's workshop or fix the starving shoemaker's business? It's both (or maybe even Martians or robots), depending on where you hear the tale.
* Each paganus would be associated with a certain place, village, shop, or building; typically represented with small images, shrines, and statues. (The term genius more properly describes a spirit associated with private homes, lands, or families.) The ever-efficient Romans initially cared little for mass religion and collected all the little icons they could find, relocating them to "public" temples located at the corners of squared farmland regions; these served as convenient meeting places and tax-stations (the ignorantly provincial farmers made their "offerings" and believed the Roman soldiers carried them to the temples of greater pagani.)
Roman soldiers used the word pagan to contemptuously describe rural yokels; the term was then adopted by city dwellers (who viewed themselves as cosmopolitan sophisticates); then adopted by early Christians (who viewed themselves as "Soldiers of Christ") - this last definition leads to the modern use of the word "pagan".
One episode of Stargate had a Norse (Asgard) society which mistook Earth humans as the "elves" (even "dark elves") described in their/our mythology. Not unrealistically, I think. Elves (and hobbits and gnomes, etc) of D&D and Middle Earth might be the most popular descriptions these days but can hardly claim any real authority over the matter.
Just sayin' that "fey" is pretty much whatever you wanna call it, and I don't personally like calling D&D gnomes fey, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 06:41:24
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Mm-hmm.... Okay, what I meant by a "standard circle", to clarify, is that in several of the more reputable tomes on the subject (and where I first learned my "Craft") is a traditional (according to several sources in my rather extensive esoteric library) elemental circle with each corner having a type of guardian nature spirit (which is really what fey are) attached to it. That said, the various types of fey are often associated with the element they re most often found in or around. Pixies, obviously, would be an air spirit. In that sense, gnomes are more fey related than dwarves, which are mainly tied to the Norse pantheon in any case. (Elves are a little more cosmopolitan- they have been spotted from Norse lands all the way down into Celtic Gaul and Iberia, as well as Eire, Wales, Caledonia(Scotland) and Greece.)
As to the garden gnomes- they are actually an extension of the folklore regarding the house gnomes I mentioned earlier. Not sure who first came up with the idea, but they were originally intended as an enticement to the real thing to come and live in a particular home. Sort of like the equivalent of hanging out a sign saying "gnomes welcomed here". Unfortunately, the practice has lost its meaning, and now tends toward the rather garish applications we see today. The garden gnomes themselves are actually a fairly accurate depiction of what people once thought gnomes looked like. They were reputed to be rather cheery fellows (and lasses) and yes, they did supposedly wear the tall pointy red hats. In fact, it was said that a gnome gone bad became a red-cap, and the only real difference was that unlike the gnomes, their hats were dyed red WITH BLOOD. So what we see in gardens is the remnants of those old "welcome" signals. Doubtful whether any gnomes are still around to take up the invitation, however.
Edit: As a side note, the old folklore gnomes seem to have lived a little like hobbits, having their homes underground, usually beneath the roots of an old oak or Ash tree. There was some interesting lore in that old book of mine about how their hoses were set up, and storerooms for food, and that they sometimes kept mice as pets. also that gnomes sight, hearing, and smell were much better than humans, as I recall. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 28 Nov 2010 06:47:49 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 06:58:53
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just an aside, and not to contradict anybody, while doing my research on all things fey I discovered that those cute little garden gnomes like that travelocity guy arent really cute at all they depict the redcap, and were meant to ward off that murderous little fey thats been troubling me, not welcome them in
Fascinating, really. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 28 Nov 2010 07:50:30 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 08:36:18
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I suppose the Realms equivalent might be gnomes placing little pointy-hat pipe-smoking Elminsters all over their bookshelves ...
The Norse depiction of elves seemed to vaguely describe them as like-but-not-quite-like normal men; dabblers of powerful witchcraft and such stuff. Elves probably referenced the Vanir and seem (etymologically) to be derived from foreign terms which describe what we would call albinos, spirits, and genies. Frey and Freya are said to come from Aflheim and are sometimes called (light) elves, while the land of Svartalfheim is peopled by evil dark/black elves prophecized to fight against the Aesir in the battle of Ragnarok. Some notable heroes are described as half-elves.
Ukraine, Moldova, and Romania have rich folklore and superstitions; sullen peasants have been wary of the "fey" for ages. Of course, they view "fey" as meaning pretty much anything supernatural which walks the land and have traditionally had famous problems involving vampires, ghosts, and werewolves. One of the least malign fey from the region that I've heard about is a sort of ghostly undead which steals the breath of the living (people are always careful to wash their cups after use, so that such creatures cannot drink their lingering breath). Incidentally, this is probably the original home of gypsies (whose pagan beliefs have exposed them to much persecution). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 09:34:10
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@ Fellfire- Where did you find that lore? I don't recall running across any reference to that use in any of my sources. If I can find a link for that book, I'll pass it along, the illustrations alone are worth a look. (And are, incidentally, very close to the images we see in garden gnomes. As I mentioned before, they look nearly identical to the more malicious Red-Caps, who are in fact, gnomes gone "bad". Usually due to some sort of human offense against them. The only way to tell the difference between a gnome and a red-cap, IIRC, was that the red-caps are decidedly wilder in manner and appearance- unkempt hair, blood-shot eyes, reddish stains (blood, of course) on clothing...That's really how you can see that the garden images are actually gnomes. They're just too darn cheery and "civilized" to be a red-cap.) Both types of gnomes (including the red-caps) stand about a foot tall (half-foot without the hats) and tend to dress brightly in blues, greens, and red or yellow (for the women). And yes, they do both have red hats, which may be where a lot of the confusion comes from. The Red-Caps, however, are usually duller red, due to the dying in blood....
Also, as an interesting bit that I remember from that source, there is also a separate "race" of gnomes known commonly as "Siberian gnomes", which dresses and even looks a bit different from the usual sort. Mainly in that their clothes and caps are usually in shades of gray and dull blue or green, as opposed to the more colorful attire of ordinary gnomes, and they have larger noses, stand taller (by an inch or so) and wear their beards and hair much longer. They also tend to have very red faces. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 09:54:04
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| Fellfire (and others) have talked about Red-Caps in his Evil Fey scroll. You can't tell me the travelocity gnome isn't a suspiciously jovial (and indestructible) creature. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 10:25:02
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| Alystra, not sure where exactly I found that particular lore. I've traveled far and wide in my search. Perhaps I Bookmarked it, I'll have to look, I REALLY need to regroup and reorganize. I want to say it was one of the Monstrous wiki's because I think I remember reading of the "Bluecap" there as well (which by the way, I found a dead link to a custom gnimshian PrC over at Enworld which was more than a few years old, anybody got that kicking around their archive??). If I can find it, I'll be sure to post it. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 29 Nov 2010 10:55:08 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 19:20:28
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D&D is NOT the best source in the world for accurate folklore and mythology (about on-par with Disney... but don't get me started...)
THIS is a more traditional Gnome, before D&D, and later DL and Warcraft, got their hands on them. Until Dragonlance came-along and screwed them up, they had absolutely NOTHING to do with technology.
If anything, DL Tinker Gnomes behave MUCH more like Goblins and Kobolds (folklore, NOT D&D) - they tend to delve into the earth looking for precious metals and gems, and have an insatiable curousity (which they share with the Kender).
Kender, BTW (IMHO), is what happens when you get too much 'Tallfellow' (Elvish) blood in a strain of Halflings.
And this whole conversation just reminded me an article-concept I had for Dragon Magazine YEARS ago - "The Forgotten Race of Lings". 
I think I just found my 'umbrella term' for the small, brownie-ish group of Fey.
And if anything, Halflings are actually anti-magical, both in Tolkien and in early editions of D&D, so it makes a lot less sense for them to be Fey then Gnomes (who are all about Illusions - called 'Glamours' by fey). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Nov 2010 19:22:15 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 05:52:46
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MT, I could KISS you right now!!! That pic just HAPPENS to be the cover art for the very book I was referring to!! Apparently, the title was just "Gnomes" as it shows in your image link, but that's not really here or there. The important thing is that your link is exactly what I was talking about. That particular tome of lore (and it IS quite detailed and marvelous) was actually my mom's long before I got my hands on it as a little kid. Matter of fact, someone over at Nickelodeon made a popular kids' cartoon based off that book back in the early Nineties. Or possibly late Eighties, can't recall exactly. But there was a trio of trolls in that cartoon who were hilariously stupid, and the main character (gnome) was named David. And there was a fox companion (familiar?) named Swift.
Incidentally, that "Bluecap" may have been one of the so-called "Siberian gnomes", who I seem to recall were slightly more aggressive and churlish than their forest cousins. Their caps were generally either gray or blue, and they also wore thick fur-covered boots, as well.
Edit: script time goblins running amok again... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 30 Nov 2010 06:50:58 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 14:05:20
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The picture that MT posted I consider perfect for gnomes, I like the bleaching idea from Pathfinder, though their gnomes look too cartoonish, for most of the gnome art my players would just laugh at.
Halflings, for my games I thought about a story where they were fey beings on Anadia, but the Spiritworld/Feywild died there (like in Dark Sun), those that survived had made pacts with genies and were enslaved to them for a time. That's how they arrived in Zakhara and spread first into the Lands of Intrigue. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 21:16:18
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I always forget about the (small-eyed) Halflings of Anadia!
Good call and nice lore.
D&D gnomes are actually Kobolds - that would be the closest 'folklore' race you will find to them (and fey-Lore should be Folklore!)
D&D Kobolds are... I don't know... little lizard-people? If and when I ever build the site for my HB world, I will probably go with Dragonewts (and hope Chaosium, or who whoever owns Runequest now, doesn't sue me).
Each D&D race will be 're-interpreted' - too much of our game-lore is built on old 50's, 60's and even 70's fantasy tropes, and they are very dated. I know Paizo did this masterfully with their monster-races books (someone please provide a link) - its about time someone created lore books for the bad-guys. Fluff = Adventure Hooks - why can't the WotC guys wrap their minds around that? Thinking that 'monsters' are just sitting in some sort of 'suspended animation' in a dungeon, waiting YEARS for some party of adventurers to wander in and wake them up is SO old-school.
Not that there is anything wrong with old-school - plenty of people game that way - but some of us like to 'get inside' our monster's heads.
--- Markus Monstrônius, Doctor of Xeno-psychology  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Nov 2010 21:23:02 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 21:26:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
MT, I could KISS you right now!!!
Kiss away! 
I found plenty of pics of 'Garden Gnomes', but I figured that one is the definitive source right there (and I have that tome as well).
Note the shape of the hat... like a witches hat... or a yeti's head... or even a pyramid...
Nothing to see here... must move on before those guys in the black suits start pestering me again.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 22:01:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I like the bleaching idea from Pathfinder, though their gnomes look too cartoonish, for most of the gnome art my players would just laugh at.
haha, my part doesn't have any fey except gnomes, you liked Hookshanks and Tuggins? expect even more deranged stuff |
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Edited by - Marc on 30 Nov 2010 22:08:50 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 23:09:04
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| For the record, Tolkien originally called the Noldor (the High Elves who were most skilled at crafts, and later returned to Middle Earth searching for the Silmarils) as Gnomes. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 23:27:48
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Which makes me now think that the humans of Middle-Earth were only about 4½ tall! 
Seriously, maybe his Elves (which were tiny people until he came along) and gnomes aren't huge, its just that the rest of the world is comparatively small.
I have some theories about this as well (pertaining to unrelated subject matter): The universe is ever-expanding, therefor traveling to an earlier period in time (MUCH earlier) you would be 'bigger' then others around you (which is why we seem so large compared to the folk that built ancient ruins). Of course, the ruins should be growing as well.. I hate astrophysics...
Anyhow, my point is that maybe Tolkien had decided his Middle-Earth was in the primordial past, where EVERYTHING was smaller (and probably more dense - mass would not change... I think...)
Which could be why we have Fey in so many sizes; time moves 'funny' in the Feywild, and because of that, perhaps a tall, majestic 'Faerie Queen' from Ages past will now be seen by current humans as a diminutive thing. The universe of the Faerie Plane does not expand at the same rate as the prime material.
Just tossing that out there - not trying to connect to anything Quale (or the rest of us) are doing. Just more 'food for thought'.
I should call Steven Hawkins with this theory, but the guy never answers his phone.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Nov 2010 23:29:03 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 00:18:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I like the bleaching idea from Pathfinder, though their gnomes look too cartoonish, for most of the gnome art my players would just laugh at.
haha, my part doesn't have any fey except gnomes, you liked Hookshanks and Tuggins? expect even more deranged stuff
need I say that the thread is ''spoilers'' for you |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 00:19:59
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A couple of brilliant ideas here since Gray's post, I love Candlekeep
MT, I like that my cosmology is ''realistic'', not the crystal spheres stuff.
AFAIK the mass does not change, but the acceleration of expansion is influenced by the dark energy (Shar, the event horizon). So the Hawking radiation would be something that decreases the black holes, Shar's part of the raw Weave, not sure, lol. |
Edited by - Quale on 01 Dec 2010 20:40:45 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 04:21:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
AFAIK the mass does not change, but the acceleration of expansion is influenced by the dark energy (Shar, the event horizon). So the Hawking radiation would be something that decreases the black holes, Shar's part of the raw Weave, not sure, lol.
Actually, it's a phenomena only now just being observed by sages across the Realms. Informally referred to as "Oghma Radiation," it is said to be an odd occurrence enacted by the Lord of Knowledge in order to ensure that ALL information is protected, and is never truly lost. Loremasters believe that Oghma himself literally reaches beneath the void of nothingness [which supposedly leads to the Negative Energy Plane], encouraging info-particles to radiate out from the void, and return to the Prime Material Plane. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 06:19:07
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The total "mass" of the D&D cosmos is dictated by belief. Belief is just another form of mass and energy, it is the essence and building blocks of the planes. It is also subject to entropic decay: beliefs tend to diffuse into simpler components with forgotten contexts which float meaninglessly until they get joined or absorbed into other beliefs. Belief does not obey the same "physics" which consume mass and energy within "black hole" voids. Belief exists in rarefied form throughout even the emptiest reaches of the universe and thematically allows all things D&D to exist. All the powers have some ability to perpetuate and manipulate belief, even Shar paradoxically requires belief to exist.
Such is my OT contribution to this Fey thread, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Fey realms
