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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 09:38:16
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| Than I don't understand whats the argument about, because I only said it would be boring if those guys would be the main characters? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 10:19:29
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
All the magical power in the world isn't going to help you save an important relationship, for instance, or make the right choice about what to *do* with that power--do you support this king, or that? Who died and made you the goddess of magic, to impose your will on others?
Those sorts of conflicts.
As I said I don't say powerful beeings shouldn't b in a novel but I think they should be antagonists instead of protagonists.
Either powerful antagonists or protagonists work fine with me. In the end, what would really matter is how convincing the conflict is and how fun does the author use his characters. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Tren of Twilight Tower
Seeker
51 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 15:52:01
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Ok, here we go. Which of the famous
NPC's of the realms would u like to
see in their own novel? Name them off
and maybe well be sending WOTC a
message.
I apologise if I mispell
anything.
My vote goes to Halaster. His past is mystery, actions unpredictable, power unquestionable..., Elminster gone wrong, indeed.
Halaster reminds me of somebody whose fate has been play of circumstances with unhappy ending. With other words, I like to think of him as gifted arcanist who gained unthinkable power, but unwittingly lost his mind - i.e. originally good man whose life has been tangled ball of professional accomplishments and personal loses.
To think of Faerun without him is as to think of household with a family member gone missing.
Tren |
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Deathspawned
Acolyte
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 16:42:02
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I chose mirt but want to see it as "how mirt became mirt"...I really want to see more novels by Ed that show what made the realms and the people who shaped(or where shaped)the realms.I would love to see how alot of these people became the powerful more than the "im powerful and do as i please".I'd also like to see El raising the sisters(might be funny as heck)or of who raised the other sisters,early years of the Blackstaff,a how's narm(spellfire)btw(what happend to him after everything(is he a powerful mage did he fall apart,did he have to run and hide still,etc.)),etc.
Guess im just nestalgic for the old days(pre wizards)and i do love lore and would love to see some NDA's taken care of in some of these novel's in the process lol.
Death |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 03:56:31
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Just thought of another one I'd like to see in a novel: Baelam the Bold. Love that character!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 05:08:11
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Any of the 12 Shadovar princes who didn't have enough 'stage time' in RotA and TW trilogies. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 14:03:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
All the magical power in the world isn't going to help you save an important relationship, for instance, or make the right choice about what to *do* with that power--do you support this king, or that? Who died and made you the goddess of magic, to impose your will on others?
Also, rulers and great archmages make decisions based on a context of relationships and probable short- and long-term effects that's too complex to start to explain (through a highly internal/subjective narrative or otherwise) in a normal-length novel without making it the focus of the book. So books featuring them tend to contrive to put them in temporary simpler situations, simulating the lives of more middling sorts (who act in an equally complex web of meaning and cause, but aren't as aware of it).quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This, I think, became a major problem in 3e, which the author/designers don't care to admit - the next RSE had to be even more spectacular then the last.
One at least did, bless his cotton socks. |
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Shadowaxe
Acolyte
United Kingdom
16 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 16:42:31
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| Although not famous, I would love to see Mumchance and his mutts in their own novel! (complete with all dwarvish commands - Sit! Stay! Fetch!) |
Mead, mead, from the honey bee,
How I long to drink thee. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 04:33:34
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| Is that really a dwarf's name? I like how it sounds. Might use it as my dog's name. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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jaelin910
Acolyte
Australia
18 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 14:36:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Regular people are boring
I would disagree with this. Most regular people are interesting enough if you tap into the right parts of their lives and personalties. Regular people in irregular situations always have great potential.
if they are in irregular situations then they cant be "average people" making them irregular people in irregular situations |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 15:57:27
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quote:
Originally posted by jaelin910
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Regular people are boring
I would disagree with this. Most regular people are interesting enough if you tap into the right parts of their lives and personalties. Regular people in irregular situations always have great potential.
if they are in irregular situations then they cant be "average people" making them irregular people in irregular situations
Wait -- you're saying that being in an irregular situation means one is not average? I can't see that. Just because something happens that puts someone in a situation, it doesn't mean that the person isn't your average Joe. There's a difference between seeking out irregular situations and being an innocent bystander when one happens. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 16:04:36
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quote:
Originally posted by jaelin910
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Regular people are boring
I would disagree with this. Most regular people are interesting enough if you tap into the right parts of their lives and personalties. Regular people in irregular situations always have great potential.
if they are in irregular situations then they cant be "average people" making them irregular people in irregular situations
I disagree. An average person can show themselves to be exceptional when put into an exceptional situation (something that often becomes over used), but not necessarily. The same goes for a person thought before hand to be exceptional, he or she can show themselves to be quite ordinary. On the other hand it could be argued that afterwards the fact that the person had been in the situation in question would make them somewhat extraordinary.
Take a robbery for example. That puts an ordinary person in an extraordinary situation; now that person can handle that situation in the ordinary (and sensible way)way of giving up their money and being scared, but some people will of course react in other ways.
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 17:52:29
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| Halaster OF COURSE!!! |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 20:20:08
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Olothontor, “The Minstrel Wyrm”
Or one of the other more unusual dragons. Must be either evil or one of the weaker metallics! Uber babe the song dragon or wonder wyrm the gold drake need not apply! |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Enwy
Acolyte
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 20:40:46
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| I'd voted "Other". Even though she's already had "War In Tethyr", I'd love to see another novel about Zaranda, and preferably Haedrak as well, since the Scholar King needs some love too. Preferably together, as their relationship makes me smile. |
Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"
"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him.
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 21:41:04
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| Well, needless to say I am surprised by the results so far. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2010 : 04:30:26
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I'd vote to novelize Halaster or Larloch. Perhaps Manshoon. Incidentally, there's a real shortage of female villains in the Realms.
To be honest - I'd half prefer my favourite villains never appear in novels.
The novels tend to do a lot of damage to cool and powerful evil/insane characters. They are sometimes portrayed as tragic/misguided anti-villains who are unwillingly condemned to plod the path of the dark side. Or they become inept blunderers who dare too much and have a conveniently exploitable crippling achilles heel. Some are just dehumanized or rendered as so randomly irrational that they become little more than predictable/unbelievable melodramatic props. What I'm saying is that these wonderful villains (with their well-established ruthless, malign, and treacherous virtues; with their power, ambition, and scheming; with all their unnerving emotionless calm or maniacal mad cackling) are often turned into convenient sacrifices upon the alter of paperback entertainment. They often emerge much worse off for the experience. They typically don't behave the way a real PC/NPC would in a campaign (certainly not one as intelligent and accomplished as these must be); they behave more like they're following unsophisticated television/Hollywood scripts. It is interesting that they can sometimes enthrall entire nations or build massive armies, and yet (even in the face of tired cliché) their allies ultimately desert or betray them when it matters most. C'mon! Powerful (evil) organizations in RL (historical and modern) attract all sorts of capable and fanatical henchmen, a few of whom are more despicable and capable of greater evil atrocities than their leaders, and who will often defend their evil cause unswervingly. Even if it's only because their loved ones will be harmed if they fail.
Szass Tam has done well for himself in the novels, if perhaps pushed just slightly over the top; more than just a lich and a zulkir, with a collection of unstoppable artifacts, alliances with (or subjugation of) ancient/divine evil powers, and limitless legions of undead. True, he's been around a few centuries and has been keeping himself busy accumulating power and knowledge in numerous short stories, so perhaps this is forgivable.
The Princes of Shade (except Telemont, Rivalen, Brennus, and perhaps Melegaunt) are all basically faceless and interchangable and don't seem to evoke any particular respect, interest, or feeling.
Other villains like Tyranthraxus, Maligor, and Cyric have been very shallow and two-dimensional. Some attempt to add interesting character flaws, backstory, or humanity is often made ... but these villains just don't quite cut it, and to be honest, each successive novelization just exaggerates them and hastens their decay even faster. True, they might achieve epic or godly levels of power but they're still just unsatisfactory bad guys who might as well be swapped with a single-session end of module BBEG. Just my opinions.
[Edit]
These comments apply just the same towards novelization sometimes eroding perfectly good heroes for generic consumption.
Maybe I'm just old school and believe it's the character that matters. Not his magical scimitars, or ability to wield spellfire or silverfire or hellfire or water-balloons, or cast mighty spells of destruction, or have psionic/mental powers, or rare (and sometimes rule-breaking) supernatural curses/gifts and abilities. A real villain or hero is based on who the character is and what he does, not on what the character's resume sheet lets him do.
On the other hand - I'll admit that my players would be terrified if I used Manshoon or Szass Tam against them, due largely to what they've read (and know I've read) about these characters in various novels. The novels, regardless of any technical or contentual "issues" they might have, do a wonderful job of adding life and depth to the Realms setting. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Oct 2010 08:47:51 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 03:16:27
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I voted Manshoon. I would like to see more of him (The Manshoon Wars in particular, founding the Zhentarim a close second)and through him we can get more of several other characters like Hesperdan and Fzoul. Having said that, books about Larloch, Halaster, and the Srinshee would make for interesting insights. A book about Mirt could make for an interesting non magic centered book (unless I've not yet read the books about Mirt's magical abilities, I've got a pretty big stack I'm working through).
Arik, we had a discussion about the idea of a villain centric series a few months ago found here. Some of the things you mentioned were brought up. I think it can be done. It's a matter of walking the tight rope of avoiding making the character a complete scum bag (evil all the time, in all areas of their life) and also avoiding making them some emo lashing out at the cruel, cruel world. They can have a tragic background, but it has to be done with care. They need that moment where they accept that their background may have lead them to the door to evil, but they chose to step through it and never look back. I also agree with your example of Szass Tam as a villain who has been done fairly well. I also think the few Princes of Shade that have been focused on have been handled well. To me, Brennus in particular is a good example. You know given who hhe is that he will probably do anything to make reborn Netheril succeed, but we also know that he deeply cared for his mother and is obviously capable of compassion. There's complexity there, even though he is evil. That's what I would like to see for some of the other villains. Mainly the human (or former human) villains. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 04:23:40
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all villians are complex, now not all authors
are talented enough to show the other sides of
the equation. T |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 06:06:41
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
all villians are complex, now not all authors
are talented enough to show the other sides of
the equation. T
That is true. We run that risk with any story though. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 06:18:44
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Those are all excellent points, Tyrant, alt-art. A poor writer, like a poor artist, lacks the talent or skill to truly create a masterpiece.
(Can the observer perceive more beauty in a piece of art than the creator put into it? Can the antagonist in a story be more villainous than the writer can express? Perhaps the characters in these novels should only be written by dark and villainous people, lol?)
Perhaps arbitrary limitations are imposed by the publisher as well - the volume must describe other aspects (like the hero or certain plot elements) of the story in sufficient detail but remain constrained to a certain word count, or the deadline is inadequate to allow final touches, or the content may need to be edited/censored to be appropriate for a target audience or age group, etc.
Agreed with something another sage spoke - people don't really care much about the villain anyways, they want to read about Drizzt. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 01:58:49
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
all villians are complex, now not all authors
are talented enough to show the other sides of
the equation. T
I don't think we need worry about this. In the current roster of WotC authors, almost ALL are capable enough to show the complexities of the characters mentioned in this thread.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2010 : 09:26:31
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Wow! Larloch is winning. And here I am thinking I'm one of the very few who wish the Great Unknown to be Known. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2010 : 17:57:37
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| I would love to Halaster in a novel. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2010 : 02:21:11
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| I would also like the Srinshee to appear in a Larloch novel. If they could - and they did - appear together in a short story, why not in a novel, too?! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2016 : 16:49:50
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| I voted for the second "Other." Nar-Aidiya, the Bonfire, the ruthless leader of the Brotherhood of the True Flame would be my choice. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2016 : 17:01:13
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| This was an interesting thread to resurrect. I'm wondering how people feel now that some of the characters mentioned have been novelized. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2016 : 17:29:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
This was an interesting thread to resurrect. I'm wondering how people feel now that some of the characters mentioned have been novelized.
Satisfied or disappointed depending on the quality of the novel. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2016 : 16:50:54
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| One I wish got more screen time was Sahbuti Shanardanda (FRCS, pg. 155). He was a monk/sorcerer/shadow adept in the employ of the Dark Moon order, dedicated to the cult of Shar and worked up and down the Sword Coast. |
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who do u want to see novelized?
