Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 who do u want to see novelized?
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 4

althen artren
Senior Scribe

USA
778 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2010 :  21:41:04  Show Profile Send althen artren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, needless to say I am surprised by the results so far.
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2010 :  04:30:26  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd vote to novelize Halaster or Larloch. Perhaps Manshoon. Incidentally, there's a real shortage of female villains in the Realms.

To be honest - I'd half prefer my favourite villains never appear in novels.

The novels tend to do a lot of damage to cool and powerful evil/insane characters. They are sometimes portrayed as tragic/misguided anti-villains who are unwillingly condemned to plod the path of the dark side. Or they become inept blunderers who dare too much and have a conveniently exploitable crippling achilles heel. Some are just dehumanized or rendered as so randomly irrational that they become little more than predictable/unbelievable melodramatic props. What I'm saying is that these wonderful villains (with their well-established ruthless, malign, and treacherous virtues; with their power, ambition, and scheming; with all their unnerving emotionless calm or maniacal mad cackling) are often turned into convenient sacrifices upon the alter of paperback entertainment. They often emerge much worse off for the experience. They typically don't behave the way a real PC/NPC would in a campaign (certainly not one as intelligent and accomplished as these must be); they behave more like they're following unsophisticated television/Hollywood scripts. It is interesting that they can sometimes enthrall entire nations or build massive armies, and yet (even in the face of tired cliché) their allies ultimately desert or betray them when it matters most. C'mon! Powerful (evil) organizations in RL (historical and modern) attract all sorts of capable and fanatical henchmen, a few of whom are more despicable and capable of greater evil atrocities than their leaders, and who will often defend their evil cause unswervingly. Even if it's only because their loved ones will be harmed if they fail.

Szass Tam has done well for himself in the novels, if perhaps pushed just slightly over the top; more than just a lich and a zulkir, with a collection of unstoppable artifacts, alliances with (or subjugation of) ancient/divine evil powers, and limitless legions of undead. True, he's been around a few centuries and has been keeping himself busy accumulating power and knowledge in numerous short stories, so perhaps this is forgivable.

The Princes of Shade (except Telemont, Rivalen, Brennus, and perhaps Melegaunt) are all basically faceless and interchangable and don't seem to evoke any particular respect, interest, or feeling.

Other villains like Tyranthraxus, Maligor, and Cyric have been very shallow and two-dimensional. Some attempt to add interesting character flaws, backstory, or humanity is often made ... but these villains just don't quite cut it, and to be honest, each successive novelization just exaggerates them and hastens their decay even faster. True, they might achieve epic or godly levels of power but they're still just unsatisfactory bad guys who might as well be swapped with a single-session end of module BBEG. Just my opinions.

[Edit]
These comments apply just the same towards novelization sometimes eroding perfectly good heroes for generic consumption.

Maybe I'm just old school and believe it's the character that matters. Not his magical scimitars, or ability to wield spellfire or silverfire or hellfire or water-balloons, or cast mighty spells of destruction, or have psionic/mental powers, or rare (and sometimes rule-breaking) supernatural curses/gifts and abilities. A real villain or hero is based on who the character is and what he does, not on what the character's resume sheet lets him do.

On the other hand - I'll admit that my players would be terrified if I used Manshoon or Szass Tam against them, due largely to what they've read (and know I've read) about these characters in various novels. The novels, regardless of any technical or contentual "issues" they might have, do a wonderful job of adding life and depth to the Realms setting.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Oct 2010 08:47:51
Go to Top of Page

Tyrant
Senior Scribe

USA
586 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2010 :  03:16:27  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted Manshoon. I would like to see more of him (The Manshoon Wars in particular, founding the Zhentarim a close second)and through him we can get more of several other characters like Hesperdan and Fzoul. Having said that, books about Larloch, Halaster, and the Srinshee would make for interesting insights. A book about Mirt could make for an interesting non magic centered book (unless I've not yet read the books about Mirt's magical abilities, I've got a pretty big stack I'm working through).

Arik, we had a discussion about the idea of a villain centric series a few months ago found here. Some of the things you mentioned were brought up. I think it can be done. It's a matter of walking the tight rope of avoiding making the character a complete scum bag (evil all the time, in all areas of their life) and also avoiding making them some emo lashing out at the cruel, cruel world. They can have a tragic background, but it has to be done with care. They need that moment where they accept that their background may have lead them to the door to evil, but they chose to step through it and never look back. I also agree with your example of Szass Tam as a villain who has been done fairly well. I also think the few Princes of Shade that have been focused on have been handled well. To me, Brennus in particular is a good example. You know given who hhe is that he will probably do anything to make reborn Netheril succeed, but we also know that he deeply cared for his mother and is obviously capable of compassion. There's complexity there, even though he is evil. That's what I would like to see for some of the other villains. Mainly the human (or former human) villains.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest
Go to Top of Page

althen artren
Senior Scribe

USA
778 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2010 :  04:23:40  Show Profile Send althen artren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
all villians are complex, now not all authors
are talented enough to show the other sides of
the equation. T
Go to Top of Page

Tyrant
Senior Scribe

USA
586 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2010 :  06:06:41  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren

all villians are complex, now not all authors
are talented enough to show the other sides of
the equation. T


That is true. We run that risk with any story though.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2010 :  06:18:44  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Those are all excellent points, Tyrant, alt-art. A poor writer, like a poor artist, lacks the talent or skill to truly create a masterpiece.
(Can the observer perceive more beauty in a piece of art than the creator put into it? Can the antagonist in a story be more villainous than the writer can express? Perhaps the characters in these novels should only be written by dark and villainous people, lol?)

Perhaps arbitrary limitations are imposed by the publisher as well - the volume must describe other aspects (like the hero or certain plot elements) of the story in sufficient detail but remain constrained to a certain word count, or the deadline is inadequate to allow final touches, or the content may need to be edited/censored to be appropriate for a target audience or age group, etc.

Agreed with something another sage spoke - people don't really care much about the villain anyways, they want to read about Drizzt.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2010 :  01:58:49  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren

all villians are complex, now not all authors
are talented enough to show the other sides of
the equation. T



I don't think we need worry about this. In the current roster of WotC authors, almost ALL are capable enough to show the complexities of the characters mentioned in this thread.


Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2010 :  00:34:10  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted Larloch :O)

Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master

Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.

Links related to Forgotten Realms
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9571

Adventuring / Mercenary Companies / Orders / The chosen from official sources
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11047

Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2010 :  09:26:31  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Wow! Larloch is winning. And here I am thinking I'm one of the very few who wish the Great Unknown to be Known.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
909 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2010 :  17:57:37  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would love to Halaster in a novel.
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2010 :  02:21:11  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would also like the Srinshee to appear in a Larloch novel. If they could - and they did - appear together in a short story, why not in a novel, too?!

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3068 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2016 :  16:49:50  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted for the second "Other." Nar-Aidiya, the Bonfire, the ruthless leader of the Brotherhood of the True Flame would be my choice.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
Go to Top of Page

Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

487 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2016 :  17:01:13  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This was an interesting thread to resurrect. I'm wondering how people feel now that some of the characters mentioned have been novelized.
Go to Top of Page

Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3068 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2016 :  17:29:34  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

This was an interesting thread to resurrect. I'm wondering how people feel now that some of the characters mentioned have been novelized.



Satisfied or disappointed depending on the quality of the novel.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
Go to Top of Page

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3418 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2016 :  16:50:54  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One I wish got more screen time was Sahbuti Shanardanda (FRCS, pg. 155). He was a monk/sorcerer/shadow adept in the employ of the Dark Moon order, dedicated to the cult of Shar and worked up and down the Sword Coast.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
Go to Top of Page

Clegane
Seeker

65 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2016 :  19:32:16  Show Profile Send Clegane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted other. I still want what I always would have liked pre spellplague. I always wanted a Piergeiron/Madeiron centric novel chronicling their earlier exploits and the foundation of their friendship. Written by Ed and mined from home campaign material. Or at the very least a novel centered around Waterdeep where Maderion would have had a major part as a supporting character.
Go to Top of Page

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1177 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2016 :  00:39:41  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I'd vote to novelize Halaster or Larloch. Perhaps Manshoon. Incidentally, there's a real shortage of female villains in the Realms.

To be honest - I'd half prefer my favourite villains never appear in novels.

The novels tend to do a lot of damage to cool and powerful evil/insane characters. They are sometimes portrayed as tragic/misguided anti-villains who are unwillingly condemned to plod the path of the dark side. Or they become inept blunderers who dare too much and have a conveniently exploitable crippling achilles heel. Some are just dehumanized or rendered as so randomly irrational that they become little more than predictable/unbelievable melodramatic props. What I'm saying is that these wonderful villains (with their well-established ruthless, malign, and treacherous virtues; with their power, ambition, and scheming; with all their unnerving emotionless calm or maniacal mad cackling) are often turned into convenient sacrifices upon the alter of paperback entertainment. They often emerge much worse off for the experience. They typically don't behave the way a real PC/NPC would in a campaign (certainly not one as intelligent and accomplished as these must be); they behave more like they're following unsophisticated television/Hollywood scripts. It is interesting that they can sometimes enthrall entire nations or build massive armies, and yet (even in the face of tired cliché) their allies ultimately desert or betray them when it matters most. C'mon! Powerful (evil) organizations in RL (historical and modern) attract all sorts of capable and fanatical henchmen, a few of whom are more despicable and capable of greater evil atrocities than their leaders, and who will often defend their evil cause unswervingly. Even if it's only because their loved ones will be harmed if they fail.

Szass Tam has done well for himself in the novels, if perhaps pushed just slightly over the top; more than just a lich and a zulkir, with a collection of unstoppable artifacts, alliances with (or subjugation of) ancient/divine evil powers, and limitless legions of undead. True, he's been around a few centuries and has been keeping himself busy accumulating power and knowledge in numerous short stories, so perhaps this is forgivable.

The Princes of Shade (except Telemont, Rivalen, Brennus, and perhaps Melegaunt) are all basically faceless and interchangable and don't seem to evoke any particular respect, interest, or feeling.

Other villains like Tyranthraxus, Maligor, and Cyric have been very shallow and two-dimensional. Some attempt to add interesting character flaws, backstory, or humanity is often made ... but these villains just don't quite cut it, and to be honest, each successive novelization just exaggerates them and hastens their decay even faster. True, they might achieve epic or godly levels of power but they're still just unsatisfactory bad guys who might as well be swapped with a single-session end of module BBEG. Just my opinions.

[Edit]
These comments apply just the same towards novelization sometimes eroding perfectly good heroes for generic consumption.

Maybe I'm just old school and believe it's the character that matters. Not his magical scimitars, or ability to wield spellfire or silverfire or hellfire or water-balloons, or cast mighty spells of destruction, or have psionic/mental powers, or rare (and sometimes rule-breaking) supernatural curses/gifts and abilities. A real villain or hero is based on who the character is and what he does, not on what the character's resume sheet lets him do.

On the other hand - I'll admit that my players would be terrified if I used Manshoon or Szass Tam against them, due largely to what they've read (and know I've read) about these characters in various novels. The novels, regardless of any technical or contentual "issues" they might have, do a wonderful job of adding life and depth to the Realms setting.



Cyric was really great, before he became a God, awesome even, but upon becoming a God they ruined his character and just made him a goofy ball villian. You could sympathize with how mortal Cyric ended up going evil, after being a hero. But I didn't care for how Cyric and Mask ended up being protrayed in later novels. I did like Cyrics Chosen however. I'd personally do more to pull Cyric back to his more nuanced mortal personality, make him cool again, chalk the rest up to problems caused by having Godhood enfused into him.

Adon how ever I couldn't stand, really, really disliked Adon.
Go to Top of Page

Lamora
Seeker

USA
69 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2016 :  05:13:46  Show Profile Send Lamora a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Paul Kemp created a very awesome Mask, I thought. Maybe you are talking about earlier books though which I never read? Mask is such an awesome bastard, and he actually feels realistic. Off the top of my head, he was the only god in the Realms that I liked. Lolth's son (the name escapes me) wasn't a bad god either. I don't really care for the others at all.
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2729 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2016 :  13:44:55  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lamora

Paul Kemp created a very awesome Mask, I thought. Maybe you are talking about earlier books though which I never read? Mask is such an awesome bastard, and he actually feels realistic. Off the top of my head, he was the only god in the Realms that I liked. Lolth's son (the name escapes me) wasn't a bad god either. I don't really care for the others at all.



Vhaeraun. I'd really like to see more of him too. Since they went out of their way to trash the whole drow pantheon for 4e, I think that asking for their return to be made into a story, rather than being handwaved like they have for 5e, wouldn't be too much. Especially when their return came with a drastic change, like the newfound alliance between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
Go to Top of Page

Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2016 :  17:02:47  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I simply want books that were scheduled but never released.

Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2016 :  03:08:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor



Cyric was really great, before he became a God, awesome even, but upon becoming a God they ruined his character and just made him a goofy ball villian. You could sympathize with how mortal Cyric ended up going evil, after being a hero. But I didn't care for how Cyric and Mask ended up being protrayed in later novels. I did like Cyrics Chosen however. I'd personally do more to pull Cyric back to his more nuanced mortal personality, make him cool again, chalk the rest up to problems caused by having Godhood enfused into him.

Adon how ever I couldn't stand, really, really disliked Adon.



While I wasn't a fan of Adon, I can't agree with you on Cyric. I think he was an opportunistic git who lacked the strength of character to become someone truly worthwhile. When the going got tough, he crumpled under the pressure and readily betrayed those around him, then went on to betray his former friends in order to benefit himself.

And as a deity, he's not even arisen those particular highs. He's what you'd get if the Three Stooges were evil.

I would almost be willing to undo the Time of Troubles if it meant getting rid of Cyric.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Sep 2016 03:10:12
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2016 :  14:27:16  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm inclined to agree.

Cyric had potential, which was unfortunately, creatively usurped for the sake of filling too many voids in the deitific make-up all at once.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

487 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2016 :  16:00:55  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor



Cyric was really great, before he became a God, awesome even, but upon becoming a God they ruined his character and just made him a goofy ball villian. You could sympathize with how mortal Cyric ended up going evil, after being a hero. But I didn't care for how Cyric and Mask ended up being protrayed in later novels. I did like Cyrics Chosen however. I'd personally do more to pull Cyric back to his more nuanced mortal personality, make him cool again, chalk the rest up to problems caused by having Godhood enfused into him.

Adon how ever I couldn't stand, really, really disliked Adon.



While I wasn't a fan of Adon, I can't agree with you on Cyric. I think he was an opportunistic git who lacked the strength of character to become someone truly worthwhile. When the going got tough, he crumpled under the pressure and readily betrayed those around him, then went on to betray his former friends in order to benefit himself.

And as a deity, he's not even arisen those particular highs. He's what you'd get if the Three Stooges were evil.

I would almost be willing to undo the Time of Troubles if it meant getting rid of Cyric.




I'm in total agreement. I always found Cyric to be an overly dramatic crybaby villain, with no good justification for his behavior.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 4 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000